View Full Version : hello, and two questions about the 7s
Hi, this is my inaugural post/thread and newbie question. By newbie, I mean total newbie; I know nothing about photography. But after hanging out with photographers for years and often being a student's subject or light-meter carryer, I've finally signed up for a photo I class at my local arts center.
I talked to my dad about it and he said he could send me his old camera, which he hasn't used in ages, but it turned out to be a rangefinder and the class calls for an SLR. Then I talked to the local independent-camera shop guru about my camera options, basically to ask about some cameras I had seen at a flea market. He said I should hold out for the Canon 7s, which dad was sending anyway, because I might be able to use it for the class.
It arrived today and I took it to the shop. He obviously hadn't fiddled with a Canon RF in a while, and the first stumbling block was opening it. :p Once open, though, the mechanics seemed to be in order; the shutter had some crinkles, but I read about that being a common non-problem. It works, he told me.
But then the problems that I do/will have.
First, the lens, a Canon 50/1.2, is foggy inside. When he showed me, I thought that that must mean the lens is shot, but he said I could still use it and take the class with it. He said my photos just wouldn't be that sharp. I asked about cleaning it, and he said it can be done, but that that's loaded with problems and he doesn't recommend it. Anyone got suggestions for good lenses for a starter? Ideally, I'd want something I can hold onto and not feel like I should sell in order to upgrade. I think I'd like another 50 and maybe a wide angle.
The more major (and puzzling) problem is the meter. He put in a Wein cell, and the battery check went OK (swinging all the way across). But then when he went to play with it, it never moved. Has anyone heard of this problem, and can it be fixed? I know not having a meter is not a problem for many photographers, but I'll need it, especially for class.
I really appreciate any help. The forum itself was refreshing to find, and I've learned a lot from searching (if mostly learned what I need to learn :p )
Little Rock huh
Welcome Stet, your camera and lens probably need a good CLA. I doubt that will be opening a can of worms. Infact, I know it will bring a good camera and lens back to it's glory. If I am correct that you are in Arkansas, keh.com has an excellent repair service in Atlanta. Everything I have sent to them from Connecticut has been back on my door step in 7 days. The lens will probably be around $40 to clean and the camera probably around $120. They have an online quoting system you can check out. Essex Camera in NJ is another good repair center, and there are others.
When does your class start?
Another 50mm lens, how about the Canon LTM 50/1.8. Concidered a great lens, only around $150 or so, and contemporary to your camera.
I can't see that a RF camera won't work well for your class. If the teacher is a stickler for an SLR I have a Minolta X-700 with 2 lenses I am looking to sell. Push the RF hard though, all things being equal, that 7s in good repair will beat my x-700 any day.
Wait a minute, wanna trade, :D.
Good luck.
Brian Sweeney
03-16-2005, 16:03
My Canon 50mm F1.2 had fog on the inside surfaces closest to the aperture blades. Getting it cleaned will do it a world of good. The Canon 7s is frst rate, and is well worth getting cleaned. It can be expensive on a student budget. Lenses for a Leica RF camera tend to go for more than a comparable SLR, they are more rare. The WEIN cell will only last a few months (6~12?) before failing completely, whether used or not. The 7s also has an off switch, but it will not stop the WEIN cell from discharging. Make sure the battery contacts are clean; as the battery check worked on yours the contacts must be good. I recently repaired a Canon 7 meter; turns out that the light baffle, a tray that the needle ran across, had become bent and was rubbing the needle. It appeared unresponsive, most people would mistake it for a dead meter cell.
Your setup, even requiring the CLA, is still worth in the $500 ballpark. If you need to trade it for an SLR bear that in mind.
harry01562
03-16-2005, 16:20
Hi, and welcome to the site.
Your Dad has excellent taste in cameras, the 7s is basically the last of the Canon rangefinders, and the most featured of them all. It sounds like a CLA (clean, lube and adjust) on the camera, and a cleaning on the lens are both necessary. Neither is a big deal, in the hands of a competent repairman. Essex has a good reputation, AFAIK, and has experience in the rangefinder gear. I don't know how KEH would be on this type of classic camera, but a phone call would probably get an answer. They are honest, and I've bought a lot from them over a period of about 10 years. Only repair experience was the cleaning of a lens under warranty, which was well done.
The meter is not working. This may be due to a dead metering cell, or just a bad connection internally. A CLA would possibly fix that at little additional cost. If not, you can buy any number of very nice used handheld meters, and use one of these to take seperate readings. This is still what is done by many working pros.
Many instructors do require manual SLR cameras for their courses. An example of the popular types is the Pentax K1000. Your 7s can do everything that that one can do, but not focus/compose through the lens. In the end, it's at the option of the instructor.
You can buy a working manual SLR for less than the cost of a new lens for the 7s, but I wouldn't advise disposing of the camera, even if you can't use it in the class. It's one of the finest of its kind, and deserves the CLA I suggested. It's worth several hundred dollars, and sells readily on eBay. As a collector's item, it should hold its value reasonably well, even though film cameras are not hot items now or in the near future. I own 2 of these, one to use and one for display. I wouldn't sell either. They take any lens that fits the Leica screw mount, and there are thousands of those available.
Good luck with your course, and your fine camera. If you need any specific help, drop me an email.
Harry harryb@charter.net
Congratulations!
You've been getting good advice on your 7s. As others have said, it's a top-grade, highly sought-after camera. If you can't use it for your class, and if you don't want to keep it for your own use, and if your dad doesn't want it back... well, don't let your local camera store talk you into accepting $50 as a trade-in value for it!
I'm going to discuss the CLA, lens and meter issues at some length:
CLA -- No disrespect intended for those who recommend them, but I'm not that big a believer in routine "CLA" (clean, lubricate, adjust) services, unless the camera really needs them (see below.) This is especially true with classic Canons -- their shutters are an excellent design, but it takes a real Canon expert to do a good job of adjusting one. Once adjusted by an expert, it will be quiet and very accurate for years and years. A regular joe-blow camera repairman might be able to get it going, but it won't perform as well.
So, does your camera need a CLA? I would say first to try all the shutter speeds. The shutter should "buzz" smoothly (no hesitation) at the slowest speeds, and "click" solidly at the higher speeds. Take off the lens, open the camera back, and point the empty lens opening toward an evenly-lit (not fluorescent-lit) white surface, then watch through the shutter as you fire it at each speed. The shutter curtains should snap open and shut briskly, and you should see even lighting across the shutter opening (not darker at one edge or the other.) Try it a few times -- you'll be surprised how well you can "eyeball" this, even at the fast shutter speeds.
If the shutter seems to be working smoothly, the viewfinder surfaces are reasonably clean, and all the camera's controls seem to work, then I would say your camera may NOT need a CLA. At least put a roll of film through it (or get a camera-savvy buddy to do so, if you aren't sure how to use a manual 35mm camera yet) and base your judgment on that.
Meter -- Before you conclude that the meter is bad, there's one weird little thing you might want to try. The 7s meter has two sensitivity ranges; you set them by rotating the knurled collar around the sensor eye on the front. You'll notice this collar has two settings, "H" (high sensitivity, for use in dim light) and "L" (low sensitivity, for use in bright light.)
If the lighting in the camera store was fairly subdued, and if the person helping you had the meter set to "L", the needle would barely budge even if the meter was working properly! A lot of camera-store people don't know about this. So, put in a Wein Cell and try again, making sure you set the sensitivity control appropriately.
If the meter still doesn't work, then it does need repair. The fact that the battery check makes the needle swing proves that the meter movement itself, and all the wiring from the battery compartment through the switch, are OK. About the only remaining piece is the sensor cell. This is a CdS-type cell, and it's unusual for them to just "die", so it's more likely that one of the wiring connections or solder joints has gone bad. A good repair-person could likely fix it, but the top cover will have to come off, so it'll be a relatively expensive repair to do by itself.
If you do decide to have a CLA done, the top cover will have to come off anyway, so you should get an estimate on getting the meter repaired at the same time. The camera is worth more with a working meter, so you'll probably want to have it fixed if the extra cost isn't too high.
Lens -- The easiest way to deal with your foggy lens is to swap it for one that isn't foggy. Someone else recommended the Canon 50mm f/1.8, which is an excellent lens, and the later black-and-chrome version is the correct type for your camera (which will improve its resale value if you decide to sell it, vs. fitting a non-Canon lens.) But you probably won't be able to get an even swap of your foggy lens for a non-foggy one, so you'll be out some money.
A professional cleaning also will probably fix your lens, but that also will put you out some money.
What I'm about to tell you is drastic, and I recommend that you do NOT do it if you're even slightly uncomfortable about it! Ready? Well, open up the aperture of your lens all the way, and examine the glass carefully by shining a small flashlight through it from one end as you look from the other. Look carefully at WHERE the fog seems to be. Does it seem to be on all the surfaces of the glass? If so, stop reading and go back to the suggestions above.
But, if it seems to be ONLY on the surfaces in the middle of the lens, you may be able to do something about it, if you're both dextrous and very, very careful. The most common place for these Canon lenses to fog up is in the center, on either side of the aperture blades (the fog is caused by oil vapor from the focusing mount) and this surface is accessible for cleaning by splitting the two halves of the lens.
Remember, don't try this if you're even slightly unsure about it -- when it's in good shape, this lens is worth a lot of money, so you don't want to ruin it and destroy its value by a botched amateur cleaning! Still game? Well, you need a very, very tiny jeweler's screwdriver -- a #1, or 1/32". This is probably the smallest in those six-screwdriver sets they sell in camera stores. DO NOT try to use any substitute, such as the tip of a knife or any other goofy thing that might occur to you -- it's either a #1 jeweler's screwdriver or nothing! OK, still game?
Now, sit down at a clean, well-lit surface, spread out a soft towel on it, and take your lens in hand. Make sure it's set to maximum aperture, f/1.2 Look at the front part of the lens from the side, around the front trim ring that's just ahead of the movable aperture ring. At what would be about the 7 o'clock position (with respect to the front, with 12 o'clock being the top) you'll see a tiny, tiny black setscrew.
MARK the position of this setscrew relative to the black edge of the lens ring in front of it, using a felt marker or a little piece of tape. You'll need to be able to find this exact position later. Now, CAREFULLY fit your #1 screwdriver into this tiny screw, and loosen it. If it won't turn, STOP! You don't want to gouge up the screwhead, so if it's stuck, give up and leave the job to a professional. If it will loosen, back it out so it sticks up just a bit. (Don't take it all the way out; it's not necessary, and this way you don't risk losing it. It is REALLY small!)
The screw you have just loosened retains the front lens assembly. Once the screw is loose, you can grab the very front ring of the lens by circling your thumb and forefinger around it (this distributes the force) and unscrew it counterclockwise, just like a jar lid. If it seems to drag, loosen the tiny screw a bit more to make sure it's not scraping as you turn the ring. BE CAREFUL not to cross up the threads, drop the lens, or do anything else goofy! Unscrew the front assembly until it comes all the way out. Set it down carefully on the soft cloth.
Now you can see the two interior surfaces of the lens: one on the back of the group you just removed, and the other down in the "cup" it unscrewed from. If you're lucky, the fogging will be confined to these two surfaces. You really, really, REALLY don't want to scratch them, so here's how to clean them: Get the oldest, softest, most-often-laundered cotton handkerchief you own. Make sure it's absolutely clean and really, really soft. Now, breathe on one of the inner lens surfaces to steam it with your breath, and then gently wipe off the steam with the handkerchief.
If you're lucky, the fog will come off with it. If not, leave it alone -- you don't want to risk scratching the glass! After you've cleaned one surface, breathe on and clean the other, using a different part of the handkerchief. When you're wiping the surface that's down in the "cup," don't press hard around the edges -- you don't want to disturb the aperture blades, which are very delicate.
If the lens is now clean and clear, great! If not, there's nothing more you can do -- don't be tempted to try to take it apart further! Either way, it's now time to reassemble it.
Set the front group you unscrewed earlier gently into the "cup" from which you unscrewed it. Try to get it sitting as squarely as possible so you don't damage the screw threads, which are very fine. Turn it gently until the threads catch, and screw it down. If it resists, don't force it -- back it out and try again.
Tighten it down until the mark you made JUST lines up with the little screw -- no more, no less. Now tighten the little screw until it just bottoms -- be gentle, don't force it.
If everything went right, you now have a good, clear lens that's worth a lot more than it was 10 minutes ago. But again, the penalty for screwing up is severe -- you could ruin a lens that's worth a lot of money -- so don't try this unless you're sure you're up to it, and don't blame me if you screw up!!!
Brian Sweeney
03-17-2005, 02:16
One more question to ask is "How Foggy" inside. Do you have to shine a light through it to see the fog, or does it look like "pea-soup" in there. Light fog that can only be seen shining a light through will not degrade the image much. If it is readily apparent when just looking into the lens under normal light, it is an issue.
My Canon 50mm F1.2, has some discoloration in rear group:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showgallery.php/cat/759
And
Hazy Leica 5cm f1.5 Summarit:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=157
After Professional Cleaning, $80:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=158
Let us know what you want to do.
chendayuan
03-17-2005, 04:51
Stet
check your private Message
saltyfli
03-17-2005, 08:29
If you would like to trade, I can offer you a complete set of gear. List as follows: A} Mint Canon AE1 Program camera, recently had a CLA , foam seals replaced, good for another 20 years, B} Canon Moter drive for AE1 that shoots as high as 5 frames a second , like new, C} a Canon FD 28 mm 2.8 wide angle lense,in great condition D} a Canon FD 50 mm 1.8 lens in great condition E} A Canon FD 135mm F3.5 mint lense F} a Canon 70 to 210 mm F4 zoom, like new, *** a Canon 155a dedicated flash, like new, H} a High Quality Komura 2X extender, which will double all focal lenghts of lense used with it, I} a Cambron 500mm F8 preset lens in a case with hood, *** and last but not least a MINT Canon Canonet QL17 G3 with 6month warranty ,orginal cap, new seals and recently had a CLA and meter calibrated for the new 1.5 readly available batteries, ask any one on this forum how great this camera is. With this outfit you could cover all the bases that you come to. As you can see what you have is worth more than a 100.00 dollar trade in at any camera store. I have had a Canon 7s CLA at Camera Repair Service in Pittsburgh and can recomend them highly. I have had a Canon 50mm 1.2 lens cleaned with the haze removed at Focal Point , they are specialists with these older lense. You can email me at saltyfli@aol.com
wlewisiii
03-17-2005, 09:26
Stet, you've already been given very good advice above in this thread. I just want to chime in and encourage you to keep this camera and use it. It is an excellent camera in its own right and this particular one will have much more meaning for you than a generic SLR would as it has come down to you from within your family.
Get a CLA of both camera and lens and they will serve you until it's time for your son to learn photography. If your instructor really does have an issue with using a rangefinder for your class (and I'd be highly suspicious of the instructor if that were the case anyway) borrow a cheap SLR, say a Pentax K1000 for example, for the duration and carry it to class - and then shoot your assignments with the 7s anyway. If the instructor is actually able to tell the difference, then I'll bet it won't matter.
In the end, this game is all about playing and learning. If you aren't having fun, it isn't worth the time and money. So, enjoy and post some pictures from the family 7s as soon as you can.
William
wow ... thank you all for the great advice (and offers!). It's funny; when I discovered what this camera is worth, my dad and I talked about selling it to get a new SLR. But the more I read about it, and especially the more I hold it and think about how my dad shot photos with it ~40 years ago, the more inclined I am to keep it. At the very least, I want to do what I can to try to bring it back to snuff, so I want to send it off for a cleaning/repair. The only conflict really is that the class starts soon.
I'm always pressed for time during East Coast business hours, but I got in a call to Essex today and got what seems to be a good quote -- $150 for what I guess is the CLA, and which will include cleaning the lens (if possible) and fixing the meter. That sounded good, and I didn't actually get a chance to call KEH. And anyway, I'm partial to Jersey, so feedback being equal, I'll support my original home team. (I was born there, although I still claim Philly as home. How very Jerseyan, right? And why am I in Arkansas? A lady, of course.)
So then I headed off to the camera shop again and retested the meter. We popped in a different cell and the the same thing happened, despite whether it was set on low or high. So at least that confirms one reason to send in the body. I also picked up a roll of film, too, to test the lens. Hopefully it's OK enough for class; it kinda is foggy on one side. In the shop today, the guy had me look at a newspaper with the lens as a magnifying glass, and i saw how it was hazy. (I was wrong about yesterday; he thinks it might be too hazy for class)
If it's too messed up? I dunno. Essex Camera said it would be a three-week turnaround time. The class, which my girlfriend already registered me for, begins the 24th. If it is still usable, I can send the whole thing off to Essex after the class, but I have a feeling I might end up buying an SLR, even though I was just keen on using theis RF and not really starting a camera collection quite yet :p Maybe a used K1000, or this Phoenix that is coming into the shop. Or maybe another 50mm lens. I can't decide whether I'd rather have a whole camera setup or one lens! I guess I have to see what's available, anyway. :p
You're too short on time, it seems, to get the Canon CLA done before your class begins. But it could well be back from CLA before the class is over! Hang in there, and perhaps borrow a manual SLR for the first part of the class. Or if you're going to buy an SLR, it might as well be a carefully thought-out purchase, since a decent SLR can be handy to have around! I favor Pentax, myself, and I think an MX would be outstanding; more compact than the K1000. The K1000 is the low end model of the full size first bayonet mount series. The top model is the K2, and in-between are the KM and KX. These latter two often sell for lower prices because the price-leader K1000 is so well-known, but are preferable upscale models nonetheless. However it works out, have fun with your class!
Brian Sweeney
03-17-2005, 15:49
Essex did a great job on my jammed Canon 7 and had it back to me within two weeks. Give them a sob story and enclose the payment with the camera and lens when you send it in. Unless the camera needs some part that is on backorder, they have never taken longer than 16 days back to my door.
I am glad you decided to keep the camera and have it cleaned. As you can see, many members here would jump at the chance to pick up a 7s, me included.
wlewisiii
03-17-2005, 16:30
I am glad you decided to keep the camera and have it cleaned. As you can see, many members here would jump at the chance to pick up a 7s, me included.
Preach it, brother! The Canon's are the only dark side type of camera that seriously temp me. A chance to get a 7s would put my budget in a world of hurt... :D
I, too, am glad you're keeping it and gettigng it cleaned. Just please use it. It is a fine tool and as such deserves to be used.
Enjoy!
William
Hey Stet, there are two nice SLRs available here if you are interested.
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=57064#post57064
Let me know if you would like to know more about the Minolta.
well, after talking to my better half, we're going to share her SLR for the first few weeks of class, and I'm going to pack my Canon off to Jersey tomorrow. We just have to be careful to time our usage so that we don't shoot our homework on each other's rolls.
thanks again, everyone, for all the advice (and tips on the SLRs), as well as for encouraging me to keep it. I'm excited about what I've stuimbled on; I just hope my hands/eyes can make something nice out of it. Anyway, I'll keep you posted on what happens. In the meantime, I guess I'll be lurking around here trying to learn a thing or two.
wlewisiii
03-17-2005, 18:31
Good... good... And yes, hang out here. When we're not careful, we actually can teach a thing or two... :D
William
Well, I don't have much more to say seeing the great advices above but just two things:
1) Your dad has excellent taste for cameras.
2) Welcome ! :D
Actually, I'm alternately shaking with worry and anger. Which is always worse when you don't know who to fear or blame.
On Friday, I sent my Canon 7s, which was handed down by my father, and a $158 postal money order to Essex Camera, priority mail, insured for $500. I called yesterday and they hadn't received it; same thing again today. I know these things can get delayed, and I'm usually very patient with shipping, but this is the most valuable parcel I've ever sent, and I was anxious to know its status. The post office is across the street and I have a good rapport with the folks over there, so I went down to see if they could check it, even if it is only a day or so late.
They told me it was delivered. On Monday.
The lady gave me a printout showing that it was sent 3/18 at 3:30 p.m., and delivered 3/21 at 10:20 p.m. I just spoke to a guy at Essex, the same guy who's answered every time I call, and told him what I found; he asked me more questions this time about what was in the box, where it was sent from. He checked again and said he didn't find it. He also said that the mail gets there at around noon. In my mind, I'm thinking back to make sure I wrote the correct address; I'm certain I did, but still, anything can happen, anywhere.
He suggested I wait it out a couple days more, call back tomorrow. I have no idea what this would do; the post office is saying that it's already done with its part. But I'm not really thinking anymore. At this point, I'm in shock; I never asked for his name, or anything. I don't even know what to ask for beyond that.
I think I'm going to head back to the post office to see if the MO was cashed. Yeah, a check would've been better, but circumstances made it this way. :bang:
This is not good.
EDIT:
*whew*
Right after I posted this, I called Essex Camera again to trade information. I never gave them my number in case they did find it. I talked to the same guy again, Ian. I should note that he was trying in earnest to be soothing to me on our last call, and he was again on this call. Then in about five minutes, as I was about to go back to the post office to check on the MO, Ian calls back to say they've found the box and money order, and they were responsible for misplacing it, and he apologized. And he was really, really nice about it. And actually, while I've been typing this edit, he called back again, to let me know the status of the camera.
Which is, actually, not that great news. The body should be fine; he noted that the curtain was wrinkled but no light gets through, so everything with that should be good. They'll fix the meter, clean it up, etc. The lens, however, is not in great shape. Fungus and moisture mixed around inside, and he said there was slight rust on the diaphragm (?). He said they'll try to clean it up as best as they can, of course, but warned that it may only be restored 70-80 percent. i asked if he thought it might not be good for class, and he said I should wait and take a test roll.
So, erring on the side of realistic ... anyone selling a 50mm lens (and others)? :)
so now that a few hours have passed, I'd like to apologize for my above hysteria. I just looked over that post again, and I hope it isn't misread. Based on feedback here and elsewhere, I have faith that my camera is in good hands with Essex Camera. What mainly was killing me was that I didn't know where my package was. If Essex didn't have it, and the post office said they delivered it, then who had it.
I place great faith in the mail, mainly because I use it a lot, but last year I got robbed horribly initially through the mail. I lived in a pretty sketchy loft warehouse, where the mail wasn't so secure. My bank said my ATM/check card *had* to be mailed to my street address. Well, someone took it. My bank is also one of those banks that assigns PINs, and they send it out a couple days after mailing the card, in another unmarked envelope with a different postmark. Well, someone took that too.
I found this out when my girlfriend came to visit me for a long weekend. I didn't have an ATM card, so I went to the bank to make a withdrawal. When I got my receipt my jaw dropped as saw my account was nearly depleted $800. That wasn't all, either; there were withdrawals still working their way through the system; I got taken for a grand.
To Sovereign Bank's credit, they were fantastic about fixing everything. I am now very loyal to them becuase of how helpful the bank managers were. Anyway, although I'm pretty patient with letting the mail do its thing, I worry about what could happen. One thing the police officer taking my statement reminded me was that it might not have been someone in my building or a lurker who dashed in and stole the mail; it could be someone at the post office, or at the originating post office. Who knows. And considering what this camera was worth in value and sentiment, not knowing where it was was awful.
Anyway, funky lens or not, I'm SO relieved that my camera has been found.
back alley
03-23-2005, 19:46
i hear ya!
and i kid about the canadian post office and canada customs but i have never had anything lost.
however, it can be a frustrating and scarey experience at times.
sending hundres of dollars and/or waiting for a camera, a lens...nerve wracking at times.
i'm glad they found your stuff and it sounds like the camera will be just fine & fit and ready to shoot.
talk nice to brian sweeney and he just might find a great 50 for you!
if not, keep an eye on ebay and the classifieds here and at photo.net.
you can always try a cheaper russian lens like the jupiter 8 on the canon till you find something else.
joe
Hey Stet!
Glad everything has sorted itself out. And Essex seem to have proven themselves by taking responsibility and apologising for their mistake...that kind of honesty unfortunately seems to be quite rare these days.
Anyway stick with your Canon 7s, I am sure after you get it back you will be more than pleased with it...and if you are lucky a forum member might contact you with a good 50mm lens or at least point you in the right direction.
So best of luck and have fun!
AKALAI
Wow, glad THAT worked out!
Too bad about the lens, but don't give up on it until you've tried the test roll. Meanwhile, you might ask around the forum and see if someone has a cosmetically rough but optically clean 50mm lens of some sort that they'd sell you cheap.
Good luck, and let us know how it comes out. I've got a 7s myself and would like to know a good place to send it, if it ever needs any maintenance...
Brian Sweeney
03-24-2005, 01:49
I would wait for the test roll on the lens. One time Ian called the house about the Summarit, explaining that it could not be fully restored. I told him that based on the 1st Summarit that I sent him that was in worse condition that I was not too worried. You may look for a hood for it, that helps.
If not, I suspect that if you posted a few shots taken with it here. You could probably sell it or trade it for enough to get a Canon 50mm F1.8 out of it. I'll be on the lookout for another. My last three all have homes with RFF members.
thanks for the kind words and support, guys. this is hands down one of the two most welcoming, mature and decent web forums I've been to, which is refreshing. I'm really glad that I stumbled on it.
I feel good, too, that the camera and that Essex is taking care of it (again, which I learned about here), and I can hardly wait to get under way with a test roll. What Brian said about the Summarit, though, seems promising. I wish I had it for the class, whcih starts tonight, but c'est la. Also, I don't know too much about other lens options, so I'm going to try to look into the Russian makes that Joe mentioned (or rather, I didn't know they were an option for the 7s).
I guess the funny thing is that my photo I class starts tonight. Really, I've never shot with a manual camera before. My other camera is a Ricoh R1S point & shoot, and working that's the extent of my camera expertise. But I'll keep everyone posted on the Canon and the class, and I hope to have some photos from the 7s up in the gallery soon.
harry01562
03-27-2005, 17:30
Glad that almost everything seems to be working out for you, and hope the lens is among the survivors. The Canon 1.8's seem to be bringing healthy sums lately, but the Jupiter 8's are still cheap. I haven't used one to any extent, but do have one on my Zorki 1. If you order one from a dealer like Oleg, you can be pretty certain that it will be of decent quality.
The Canon lens may surprise you, when you run the test roll. From the description, the damage may be more cosmetic than optic. Even with some loss of contrast, you should get acceptable results.
wlewisiii
03-27-2005, 17:49
Stet, I'm glad everything seems to be working out. I think you're going to have a glorious camera in the long run and I'm even more glad, for you, that your father bought such a delightful camera to begin with. Cameras are very personal things. There are very few objects that reflect how we look at the world - a camera and it's lens is one of them. With a bit of luck and grace, you'll get back a great body and a good lens.
The Jupiter 8 is one of the classic lenses; the Russians have always cribbed from the best the world had to offer and I think the Sonnar design is one of the best out there. But I'll simply mention that you might also enjoy finding an Industar 22 or 26 or 50. These are all Tessar derivatives that have a very different "feel" than the Sonnar. Both are good designs, but there is a certain look to the Tessar that is unmistakable. You may, or may not, like it. I mention it mainly because they are cheap to try and you might find that the Tessar look is one you like.
No matter what else, enjoy.
William
OK, this post is a bit overdue, but I've gotten my camera and lens back, and the end result is fantastic. Essex did a wonderful job, and I've already printed a couple things in class that make me really happy. (the teacher says his job with Photo I is to get us hooked, and the teacher in Photo II leans on us to work hard and tirelessly on our prints. he --and the camera and RFF -- are doing a good job on getting me hooked!) I'll try to post a pic or two later this weekend, but I'm using my girlfriend's Lexmark printer/"copier"/scanner, so I don't know how that will turn out.
The lens has some scratch marks on the front and some stuff inside on the back, but thankfully none of that shows up. I tested at first with some c-41 color that I took to to the drug store, shooting toward sunlight to see if anything would flare, and nothing. i also took a pic of a fire hydrant at f2 that was the first photo I ever took with a leading line and blurred-out background -- geting that back actually made me giddy.
My happiness with the camera now completely overshadows the second minor shipping horror I had with it. After a couple weeks, I called Essex to check up on it, and they told me it was sent -- and should've arrived days prior. I got the postal insurance number and went back to the post office. It was showing as arrived at the station, but undelivered. After about 20 minutes of people searching back there, a clerk remembered that there was a box that had been sitting in the back for a few days that was marked return to sender. Essex had addressed it to the wrong box number. Luckily, because it was insured, no one could pick it up but me, with ID. Still, for 45 mintues I was like, "not again!"
Anyways, now I am very happy, and I've somehow accumulated an Industar-61 from sockeyed and have a Voigtlander 35/2.5 pancake on the way, courtesy pfogle. Thanks again, everyone, for your support and help with getting this camera set up.
So, to stay on topic, again I have two questions/concerns:
The metering has confounded me. The first black and white roll i took mostly came out OK, but the second was overexposed all the way through. I even used a gray card for some of the shots. All that I could think of is that maybe I didn't have the ASA set correctly, or maybe I don't know how to meter. when i was using the gray card, I'd hold it up about 8-12 inches in front of the meter eye. In the manual it says the "exposure meter acceptance angle is 40 degrees," so "it is possible to measure the princial subject without being hindered by excessive light." I'm not sure what that means, but I'm wondering if that angle means I shouldn't hold a gray card directly in front of it, but more in front of the lens itself. Any ideas or insight on how best to meter?
The other thing is with the advance lever. Natually, after the shutter fires, I can't fire again till I advance the film. But then I find that I can advance and advance and advance, probably until I reach the end of the roll. Sometimes I forget, and advance it, and I'll develop a roll with a lot of unexposed gaps in it. Is this normal?
as always, insights and tips are super-appreciated.
-Rick, yet another new member, with slight GAS too.
Hi Rick, and sorry to hear of your GAS problems... :D But congrats on getting your camera back!
I have used a Canon Vt but have never owned one of this family of RF cameras. So perhaps there's a camera-specific reason why your film advance is acting like that. Something is wrong, there, and I'm very surprised it is like that straight back from Essex. It wouldn't be the rewind-release button accidentally pressed, because that would have the opposite effect (disengaging the drive sprockets), but it could conceivably be something as simple as that, specific to that camera. Or it might need to go back to Essex.
The metering question has I think a fairly straightforward answer. The point about using a grey card is that the card has to have the same light falling on it as the subject. If it doesn't, then it's fruitless, and I suspect this is the problem... Perhaps you hold the grey card angled to reflect the sunlight toward the meter (and that's what needs to "see" the card, not the lens)? That could make the card appear brighter than it should be, and give underexposure on the subject. It'd also be easy to get overexposure if you held the card vertically and close so it's shaded by you and the camera.
Probably the best use of the grey card is to set it next to the subject and back away as far as you can while still keeping the whole acceptance angle of the meter within the card borders. Easier with a spot meter. Easiest (and my choice) is to dump the awkwardly large card and use an incident meter instead!
But the most common compromize is to try to meter an area of the scene (without the card) that is representative of the whole and well-balanced as to average light/dark areas. This is what I do when using a camera's own meter; catch a reading off a balanced area, make the manual setting or lock the AE reading, recompose and shoot.
As another thought, you can improvise a way to convert your camera meter into an incident meter... A common white styrofoam disposable cup can be placed over the camera meter. The meter then reads the light diffused and transmitted through the cup. The camera should be pointed back away from the subject toward the position from which you'll shoot the picture... or at least the cup should "see" the same light as the subject.
You could even try several exposures of each scene using different metering methods, keeping notes, and then see which of them gives you the best results.
The other thing is with the advance lever. Natually, after the shutter fires, I can't fire again till I advance the film. But then I find that I can advance and advance and advance, probably until I reach the end of the roll. Sometimes I forget, and advance it, and I'll develop a roll with a lot of unexposed gaps in it. Is this normal?
(1) Glad you're liking your 7s, but (2) no, that's not normal. The film advance should take one stroke, and then lock until you've taken another picture.
Check that you've got the advance/rewind control (ring around the shutter release button) set to the advance position, which is all the way clockwise, past the red dot. There's a definite stop when you've turned it far enough; no need to force it. If you DON'T have the control turned all the way to the advance position, the camera can behave the way you've described.
If the control is in the correct position and the lever still doesn't lock after advancing the film, then Essex made a (minor) screwup and you should shoot it back to them to have it fixed under your repair warranty. I suspect it'll only take a small adjustment. But remind them what happened with your shipping last time, and tell them to BE CAREFUL!!!
Good luck and have fun...
gustav[] pEņa
04-22-2005, 21:48
Great Story! Enjoy your fathers camera, its a great gift. I wis I had my fathers camera.
Well, if you are ever going to buy another body do not buy a SLR its better to have a second body back up (leica, bessa) and use the same lenses. I hate to own to much equipment, to many uncompatibles lenses and bodys. Keep it simple, Keep it rangefinder.
Happy shooting!
harry01562
04-23-2005, 06:22
Very glad that after semi-normal foulups (they happen to all of us) the camera is a jewel. As someone said before, the advance is not functioning normally, but isn't a major problem. Essex should fix it easily under their repair warranty.
Also happy the lens is performing. You should also love the pancake, if you are into wides, especially. I don't own any, but do have the Canon 35/2, and it's superb. I've also read very good reviews about the pancake, which is now discontinued and probably destined to be a premium item.
We'll keep our collective fingers crossed that everything works out to the finish for you. I'm personally glad you kept the camera, as it's a favorite of mine, also.
Harry
Today I got a chance to go out and compare meter readings with the gray card, 7s and the Minolta XG-M, and the readings were coming out identical. I checked them in bright sun, in the shade of a building, on a cement base of a lamppost from front-, back- and slightly different sidelightings. The only differences were when I was in the shade of a building and the backlit lamppost -- until I turned the 7s meter to high-sensitivity. I now have two suspicions for that overexposed roll: My girlfriend says that I might have picked up a roll of her film that went through a heavy X-ray at the airport. The other is that the manual says to put the lens cap on when rewinding. Does the shutter open when rewinding? I remember rewinding that film outside, and I doubt I did that.
thanks, Doug, for the metering tips. I played with the gray card more, and noticed how tilting it affected the readings. I guess I may have done that, too, or tilted the camera trying to look at the meter (it's on top, not TTL). I wanted to try the foam cup and incident metering, but in my pre-cup haze accidentally bought from the stand with a dark brown custom print.
I played with the advance lever, too, and I'm mistaken. The lever does lock after firing and advancing. The trick is that I've been using the shutter lock button, and when that's on, I can advance repeatedly. Sometimes I'd forget the lock was on, compose and not get the shutter to go, then advance, and advance, and ... oh, unlock it. This makes sense with what jlw said, so I guess that's normal? If not, and if this is the only instance of it doing that, I'm tempted to work around it rather than send it back. Or at least wait till after class ends (the repair warranty is six months).
Overall, though, I am having a lot of fun. Not making too many pretty pictures, but learning and having fun. :D
Today I got a chance to go out and compare meter readings with the gray card, 7s and the Minolta XG-M, and the readings were coming out identical.Hi-- that's as it should be, and is both reassuring and yet puzzling as it leaves the heavy underexposure unexplained.
I now have two suspicions for that overexposed roll: My girlfriend says that I might have picked up a roll of her film that went through a heavy X-ray at the airport. The other is that the manual says to put the lens cap on when rewinding. Does the shutter open when rewinding?Well, x-rays can cause an increase in base fog, reducing shadow detail (which is an effective loss of speed), while the negs would look plenty dense. This is a possible cause, I'd think.
On the lens cap issue, most RF cameras use a shutter that has an additional light trap, since light imaged by the lens is always illuminating the shutter. Those rarities that don't use this special shutter, such as the Yasuhara, call for applying the lens cap whenever not actively shooting. Rewinding doesn't have any effect on the shutter... Still, never hurts to use the lens cap when not shooting. Shots of the inside of the lens cap aren't very interesting, though...:)
I played with the advance lever, too, and I'm mistaken. The lever does lock after firing and advancing. The trick is that I've been using the shutter lock button, and when that's on, I can advance repeatedly. Sometimes I'd forget the lock was on, compose and not get the shutter to go, then advance, and advance, and ... oh, unlock it. This makes sense with what jlw said, so I guess that's normal?That doesn't sound normal to me, in the absense of Canon RF experience. But this additional detail should help. I think JLW's information about the shutter lock sounds useful. Perhaps you're not rotating the lock all the way, or maybe there IS something wrong in the lock mechanism.
Well, x-rays can cause an increase in base fog, reducing shadow detail (which is an effective loss of speed), while the negs would look plenty dense. This is a possible cause, I'd think.
heh ... I'm still grappling with terms and the idea of dark negative/light print, and I had to read that line over and over again. Yeah, the negs are pretty dark, and the contact sheet is light, similar to the effects on this page (esp. the elephant and the bird statue)
http://www.kodak.com/global/en/service/tib/tib5201.shtml
I would guess (and hope) that that's what happened. There is no fog on the film, though, and the site doesn't address what happens if you pass an unexposed roll through the x-ray, then shoot it.
Shots of the inside of the lens cap aren't very interesting, though...:)
d'oh! I read about doing that on here, so I've beeen conscious of not doing it, but I just did this morning!
back alley
04-24-2005, 13:27
what shutter lock?
the 7s has a shutter lock?
joe
what shutter lock?
the 7s has a shutter lock?
yeah, there's a movable ring around the shutter marked A(dvance) and R(ewind), and there's a red dot between. The red dot is a shutter lock. Of course, it'll also lock if you fire the shutter and don't cock the advance lever.
back alley
04-24-2005, 13:43
that's the lock for rewinding your film back into the casette when you finish the roll. like the button on the bottom of more modern cameras.
the camera does not have a shutter lock.
joe
That's actually what the R setting is for (as well as going back for a double exposure). I guess this is uncommon, then? Becuase the lock is listed as an interesting quirk on photoethnography.com, and it's in the manual as an added safety device for when carrying the camera with the shutter cocked.
back alley
04-24-2005, 13:57
maybe it's different on the 7s but on the 7 & the p there is no shutter lock. that collar is for rewinding the film only. a to advance the film till the end of the roll and r for rewind, to get the film out of the camera.
unless, i'm missing something here. (entirely possible)
joe
back alley
04-24-2005, 14:05
doh!
i just looked at my broken 7 and damn if there isn't a red dot which is a shutter lock!
sorry for messing with your head.
i'm gonna take a nap now...
joe
Yeah, the negs are pretty dark, and the contact sheet is light, similar to the effects on this page (esp. the elephant and the bird statue)
http://www.kodak.com/global/en/service/tib/tib5201.shtml
I would guess (and hope) that that's what happened. There is no fog on the film, though, and the site doesn't address what happens if you pass an unexposed roll through the x-ray, then shoot it.That's what the elephant and bird statue (and several other images) do show, or might show. Whether the X-Ray irradiation comes before or after the picture is captured on film doesn't matter; same effect. Excepting a small possible effect from pre-fogging that may not apply here, a technique used by astronomers to increase the effective film speed... A very brief and weak exposure can have that effect.
When you say there's no fog on the film, do you mean outside of the picture areas? Fogging would show up as additional film density between frames and around the sprocket holes. Is there any pattern or waves visible, such as the Kodak site illustrated?
When you say there's no fog on the film, do you mean outside of the picture areas? Fogging would show up as additional film density between frames and around the sprocket holes. Is there any pattern or waves visible, such as the Kodak site illustrated?
no, the effect on the images are similar (on the contact sheet), but the negatives themselves have no streaks/diagonals/waves across them. Also, it was 400 speed film, which tht site says is more prone to damage.
And how creepy is that first mannequin?
That mannikin is definitely odd...
Seems to me now a good next move for you would be to get a fresh roll of film, untouched by the stresses of time or travel, and see what the camera can do with it.
Brian Sweeney
04-24-2005, 16:12
I just checked my unloaded Canon 7. I have yet to use the shutter lock, I usually leave it uncocked until ready to make an exposure. There is a "zone" from R to the red dot that the shutter release will lock and the film advance will "keep on going". On mine, the red dot locks the shutter and you cannot keep advancing it. Turn yours slightly past the red dot and toward "A". Try to find a "zone" where the shutter release is locked and the film advance stops properly. If it "exist" and is way off, you can loosen the three set screws in the "AR" collar and set it so that the indicator lines up with the red dot. Or you can just remember "the Zones". I have done this on Joe's camera and my latest Canon 7. If you do reset it, just back the very scall set screws out a little and then adjust the collar.
Let us know if you dins the zone that locks the release and keeps from wasting exposures. It was not very wide on my Canon 7.
There is a "zone" from R to the red dot that the shutter release will lock and the film advance will "keep on going". On mine, the red dot locks the shutter and you cannot keep advancing it. [...]
I have yet to use the shutter lock, I usually leave it uncocked until ready to make an exposure.
now that I'm between rolls, I just checked the A, lock and R ring, with the back open and closed. I don't seem to have a zone, but It's definitely quirky. In case anyone runs into the same thing, here's what I've found...
If I have it on A, I can take a shot and advance the film, and the spool turns and the shutter curtain returns. I can do this in one stroke or several short ones, and the little rotating eye thing rotates accordingly. Then I can't advance it anymore until the shutter fires.
If I take a shot, advance the film and then turn it on shutter lock (or anywhere not on A), I can advance the film and the shutter curtain returns, then I can still advance the film over and over again.
If I take a shot, then turn it on shutter lock (or anywhere not on A) before advancing, I can then still repeatedly advance the lever and the spool turn, but the shutter curtain doesn't return. When I switch it back onto A to take a shot, I first have to advance the film again to get the curtain back.
I'm guessing that because I don't have that "zone," I can't take advantage of the adjustment advice. Right now I'm trying to leave the camera uncocked. This seems like the only sure-fire (haw haw!) way to stop wasting film. But if the workaround doesn't work out, I still have five months left on my repair warranty -- but the thought of sending it back out, waiting, not having it ... man. I guess I should take care of it, though. After class ends.
Alex Shishin
04-28-2005, 23:26
I have a Canon 7s and love it. Recently put a Nikon S adapter on it. It may be al long time before you grew into that camera but I suggest that you have it fixed up and keep it. It will surprise you.
Brian Sweeney
04-29-2005, 01:41
Stet,
I will check out the Canon 7 repair manual to see if there is an adjustment for this issue. It seems to me that the camera is going into the "rewind" mode as soon as it is moved from "A"dvance. I do not bother with the lock, and just leave it unadvanced. If I set the camera down for longer than anticipated this leaves the curtains in the preferred "released" state. It is not good for mechanical cameras to leave them stored in the wound state for a long periods. It is like leaving a spring with tension on it, it weakens if stretched for too long. I wish Canon had made the wind indicator come into a different position depending on if it was advanced or not. About the only real use it serves is to indicate when the film is rewound off of the advance sprockets.
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