Leica fake of the day

[Ron (Netherlands)]

I came across this FED-Zorki-Leica (top seems to be a FED 1b, body a Zorki 1e)

http://cgi.ebay.nl/Leica-model-III-1939-with-Elmar-lens-consign8_W0QQitemZ140158017999QQihZ004QQcategoryZ3 0030QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[Keith]

This is a highly reputable Aussie eBayer who I have dealt with ... I am surprised they would be selling a fake as a Leica. :confused: They sell a lot of high end Leica equipment including the M8 from memory! :eek:

[Ron (Netherlands)]

They actually describe it as a vintage leica III: For sure they do not know how a Leica III looks; how about an M8?

[cmedin]

Is that cyrillic on the baseplate?

[Ron (Netherlands)]

As far as my knowledge goes about cyrillic, Yes it is! (the same inprint as on the baseplates of my own Zorkis)

[cmedin]

Wow, they didn't try very hard did they...

[LeicaTom]

hummmm and there`s over 16 bidders on it?

Gee, I wish I could have people just throw their money at me like that :p

hummmm the same seller has a real "Mont'e en Sarre" for sale as well

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140158016992&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fse arch.dll%3Ffrom%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dm37%26satitle%3D 140158016992%26category0%3D%26fvi%3D1

These are rare and I think this one is on the up and up while it has the sharkskin, but I think they should change the other auction or at least tell the people it`s a fake, not advertise it as a Leica III that`s just WRONG :(

....They stamp almost everything on Zorki`s nowadays......pretty soon it will be hard to find one that`s not bumbled about

Tom

[rxmd]

"Sorry but we put the wrong pictures with this item. We have cancelled the listing and will relist it with the correct pictures on Monday."

[darkkavenger]

I've never heard that Leica cameras might've been assembled in Saarland and marked in french, is this some kind of pendant to Nikon "MIOJ" cameras ? ;)

[xayraa33]

in 1949/50 France still occupied the Saar district.
less than 400 Leicas were assembled there to lessen the customs duty paid by the French on imported (German ) goods.
the engraved originals are now highly collectable.

[darkkavenger]

Interesting to know. I thought this model referred to pre-war occupation of Saar (which ended in 1935 if I'm right).

[xayraa33]

France controled the Saarland again after WW II also.
the Monte Saar Leica was common in a IIIb model which came out much later than 1935.

[LeicaTom]

Ohhh boy! look at this one :)

http://cgi.ebay.com/LEICA-ELMAX-CAMERA-1930s-WWll-era-BEAUTIFUL-CONDITION_W0QQitemZ130161634873QQihZ003QQcategoryZ 30030QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Tom

[cmedin]

Isn't the serial number a little high for an elmax? ;)

[LeicaTom]

Isn't the serial number a little high for an elmax? ;)

Yeah, they were drinking too much Vodka that night and punched a few too many numbers :p

Tom

[cmedin]

With all the effort that goes into making these fakes... what if the same guys spent their time on making really nicely restored old Feds or Zorkis instead? There's clearly a market out there for the stuff, imagine being able to get a very well tuned and pretty-as-new Fed 2 or something like that for $100 or so.

[LeicaTom]

With all the effort that goes into making these fakes... what if the same guys spent their time on making really nicely restored old Feds or Zorkis instead? There's clearly a market out there for the stuff, imagine being able to get a very well tuned and pretty-as-new Fed 2 or something like that for $100 or so.

What`s really SCARY is when they do put true effort into faking something well.....


http://www.members.aol.com/Winkermeister/fakeIICK.jpeg

That`s a 100% FAKE Leica IIIC K "Grey" (with a serial number that never was made #390500 K)

:(

And just to think someone bidding on evilbay PAID over $2,000 for this, I watched it exchange hands 3 TIMES!!!!!! In less than 1 month
(notice all the knobs are tooooo clean and the shutter speed dial has the B setting, also look at the wear on that knob? The B setting was something that didn`t come out till after camera #392800+ and the vulcanite is black not grey as the original cameras)

This would have been a great camera for a $400 user and listed as a fake so people were`nt misled

It pays to have everything checked out well, do your research and to know your stuff about rare cameras like this, if you want to own one, also buy from a reputable dealer or collector and it`s always best to get a camera verified and or be lucky enough to KNOW where the camera came from....the ex-GI war finds are still the BEST cameras to find in this respect

Because the Eastern Bloc forgers are really good if they want to be and their not worried about tearing up a nice $350 "stepped" rewind camera if they think they can fake it and get $1,500+ for it, with patina`d paint and fake K stampings

Tom

[Rob-F]

Two things:

1) RE the Elmax camera: The serial# 357910 if I read it right) falls within the range of 357201 to 358500, for which range no camera production is listed in my reference books! Apparently the counterfeiters took advantage of a block of numbers that were never assigned to any model.

2) Re Tom's post of a fake IIIc K model: This is one that could have fooled me! I don't see any of the usual telltale signs I look for, like a misshapen viewfinder front window. What are some clues that I am missing? Also, the serial# seems to fall within a block of IIIc made 1943/46; I don't understand why you feel that this serial# was never made.

I agree this is scary, as I suppose I could have fallen for it if I had been lusting after this model at the time of the auction. What do I need to be more alert to? I know about funnel-shaped release collars, overlarge screws in front, and wrong frames around finder windows. What am I missing in the present example?

[LeicaTom]

I don't understand why you feel that this serial# was never made.



The minute I saw this I had the numbers going to Jim Lager and Germany....the serial number was NEVER
issued

I try to verifiy every IIIC K I see, weither I have an personal interest to buy it or just record it for posterity

There`s a bunch of numbers within the WW2 range of cameras that Leitz never used and the period of time the K shutter Leica`s were being produced was pretty chaotic in the middle of the war, just about when the tide was turing bad for the German cause, there`s lot`s to look out for with these cameras and Jim Lager`s books and expertise are a blessing for anyone who wants to learn more about the wartime cameras, Jim knows everything about these cameras and has devoted a great deal of his life researching them

Best advice is to buy private, NEVER from evilbay, because I`ve seen (2) fakes and (1) rechrome turn up in the past 4 months and all cameras sold for more then $2,000, it`s just hard earned money thrown away.....

Tom

PS:I found a camera today, that would have been a great prize had it not been modified and altered, an original Berlin issue "civilian" model K from 1944 that was originally painted Grey......but now sports postwar Leitz rechrome job with new vulcanite and it`s STILL at the same price a good Grey camera is - not worth it :(

*This should be posted over at my other thread, but I started this here because of showing that fake camera*

[cmedin]

Tom, if you ever get bored and feel like doing an extensive writeup on what you know about the wartime cameras I am sure nobody would mind. :)

[LeicaTom]

Tom, if you ever get bored and feel like doing an extensive writeup on what you know about the wartime cameras I am sure nobody would mind. :)

Well, see Jim Lager is the # one expert on these "wartime" cameras in he world

He`s written some great books on the subject, covering all the cameras and various versions from all the German Army groups of WW2 (AirForce/Army/Navy)

I`m mostly interested and what the US Army did with the Leica AFTER 1945
and I do plan on writing a book about it in the near future - so please stay tuned!

Tom

[cmedin]

Sweet. :) By the way, you didn't use to hang out on #photography IRC did you?

[Rob-F]

Tom: Okay, as I understand it, you sorted out the truth by researching the individual serial number with Jim, and with the factory. It would not have occurred to me to do that! Is there anything about this camera that would I.D. it as a fake, apart from the phoney serial number? Are there really fakes that are so good that there is nothing to spot?

[LeicaTom]

Sweet. :) By the way, you didn't use to hang out on #photography IRC did you?

Nope!

I used top post Leica historical stuff over at Photo.net but then it got too political

I LOVE this website! It`s worse than drugs and eben better now then My Space used to be with all my crazy models, here I can talk shop about the stuff I love and how much fun it is shooting with this old stuff that only mad collectors have..........I like to prove them wrong, the`re JUST cameras , that were made to do one great thing - TAKE PICTURES! :)

Meet me over at my "Half Race" restoration thread - we can continue there, I`m sure everybody`s tired of us gabbing over here.........

Tom

[LeicaTom]

Tom: Okay, as I understand it, you sorted out the truth by researching the individual serial number with Jim, and with the factory. It would not have occurred to me to do that! Is there anything about this camera that would I.D. it as a fake, apart from the phoney serial number? Are there really fakes that are so good that there is nothing to spot?

Well, Rob write me off the board and I`ll give you some tips, if you really want to be krazy and enter the world of the "kugellager" Leica`s............:eek:

Tom

[LeicaTom]

Now somebody go find another Russian fake to post on here......ok?

Tom

[cmedin]

Now somebody go find another Russian fake to post on here......ok?

Tom

I dunno man, they're pretty rare... ;)

[LeicaTom]

opps! mispost

[Ron (Netherlands)]

Now somebody go find another Russian fake to post on here......ok?

Tom

Ok, this one seems to be another, look carefully at the lettering of the lens

http://cgi.ebay.nl/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=320167603020&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=011

[wolves3012]

Ok, this one seems to be another, look carefully at the lettering of the lens

http://cgi.ebay.nl/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=320167603020&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=011
I'm no expert on Leica, lenses especially, but I'd be pretty confident the body is Leica. The lens would fool me if it's not Leica - what makes you suspicious?

[rxmd]

Ok, this one seems to be another, look carefully at the lettering of the lens

http://cgi.ebay.nl/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=320167603020&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=011
The camera body at least appears to be genuine, judging by the rangefinder arm and the L-shaped viewfinder window. What's wrong with the lens in your opinion? The weird "t" in "Leitz" or something else?

Philipp

[dee]

i am gonna stick to my honest Fed ? Zorki '' Leica '' pretenders ! I would not know where to start with real or imagined wartime real leicas !Moscowphoto has a lovely ''reimagined '' Zorki in black and new chrome , lovely camera - i have the Leica badged eqivalent , and they are perhaps , the best made of the restorations .
... and i have lovely restored Fed 1 / 2b and Zorki 1 / / S / 2S Zenit S , from altai .

i am fascinated by the info in this forum - talk about addictive !

dee

[LeicaTom]

Ok, this one seems to be another, look carefully at the lettering of the lens

http://cgi.ebay.nl/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=320167603020&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=011

No Ron, I think that`s all Leica :) and a matter of fact a rarer Leica.....very late 1935 BLACK PAINT camera from a batch of 100 ordered according to the CQ list


Tom

[LeicaTom]

Now these two are not FAKE as it comes to the LEICA part, these are BOTH ONCE real Leica IIIF`s

http://cgi.ebay.com/Leica-IIIF-Black-Dial-GOLD-PLATED-OUTFIT_W0QQitemZ140165316023QQihZ004QQcategoryZ300 30QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/Leica-IIIF-Red-Dial-GOLD-PLATED-OUTFIT_W0QQitemZ140165032133QQihZ004QQcategoryZ300 30QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

They have some SERIOUS effort gone into the plating and finishing here....but I wonder if the gold will turn green with time, or wear off in your hand?

Tom

......Now if I could only find someone trustworthy in the Eastern Bloc to do real vulcanite jobs for $50 ;)

[Ron (Netherlands)]

I agree on the body, I just had doubt with regard to the lens.
I note though that this body does not have the round part on the back.

[MichaelHarris]

Now these two are not FAKE as it comes to the LEICA part, these are BOTH ONCE real Leica IIIF`s

http://cgi.ebay.com/Leica-IIIF-Black-Dial-GOLD-PLATED-OUTFIT_W0QQitemZ140165316023QQihZ004QQcategoryZ300 30QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/Leica-IIIF-Red-Dial-GOLD-PLATED-OUTFIT_W0QQitemZ140165032133QQihZ004QQcategoryZ300 30QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

They have some SERIOUS effort gone into the plating and finishing here....but I wonder if the gold will turn green with time, or wear off in your hand?

Tom

......Now if I could only find someone trustworthy in the Eastern Bloc to do real vulcanite jobs for $50 ;)


It's so shiny!

[Rob-F]

I have been asking myself who could possibly have the tooling to produce a copy as convincing as the IIIc K Tom posted a picture of, above. A copy so good that there's no clue, no way to spot that it is a fake.

I may be slow, and this may be already obvious, but: It must be that they simply started with a real IIIc, stripped and repainted it, and engraved the "K".

No?

[LeicaTom]

I have been asking myself who could possibly have the tooling to produce a copy as convincing as the IIIc K Tom posted a picture of, above. A copy so good that there's no clue, no way to spot that it is a fake.

I may be slow, and this may be already obvious, but: It must be that they simply started with a real IIIc, stripped and repainted it, and engraved the "K".

No?

Yes, any post May 1945 would do for a start.........then it`s stripped down reengraved and painted and then chemically aged, the ONLY way to tell is to crack the camera open and look for the ball bearings and if not then it`s a
"Half Race" that someone painted.....

Ohh and collectors "freak out" if they see a camera like a real "Grey" IIIC K was opened once, I say it`s JUST a camera, that`s one reason why I`m no longer a collector and now a historian, which entails that I get cameras CLA`d and repaired if they are old and broken down and bad looking......It`s not destroying history but actually helping it live on in a real working camera....but that`s a subject for a whole other thread, now is`nt it?

I recently found another camera on ebay that was made from a real camera, engraved and painted black - supposed to be a factory internal camera, but it turned out to be a 100% fake (verified by a German Historian) and that they are asking $2,500 for when it`s worth maybe like $300 is a joke and well sad for the unsuspecting buyer who has money like that to throw at collectable cameras

I say with ANY engraved Leica`s be WARNED!

If they cannot be verified by someone who`s an expert, like Jim Lager then keep away.......there`s a few "real" cameras left out there, it just takes time and it`s a "real" challenge to find them

Tom

[Rob-F]

I must say, this thread has been a valuable learning experience. It's proof of the worth of the RFF and those who contribute! Thanks, Tom.