View Full Version : TTL or non-TTL?
Not content with buying a 35 'cron ASPH, I'm thinking about an M6 to replace my M4-P. However, being fairly new to Leicas, I need advice from M6 users about which version to go for, hence the title. Price is not the issue, ease of use and long ownership is. Once I make the move, I want it to be for good. Common sense tells me to get the newest I can. Do you know different?
The TTL version is a few years younger but they're all built to last.
There are a few small differences; the exposure meter indicator in the viewfinder (<o> on the TTL, <> on the plain M6), the direction and size of the shutter speed selector (bigger on the TTL). The TTL is also a few mm higher (2mm I think).
The only reason to upgrade as I can see is the built-in light meter in the M6's. How comfortable are you with your current M4 and a handheld meter?
Good point EmilGil about the current M4. I was raised on this type of photography, so am used to referring to a hand held meter (which I shall keep). However, There are times when it would be better to be able to check 'in the finder' so to speak, hence my thoughts about changing. I realise the M6 meter is, in essense, a spot meter, but I will still have the Sekonic for more difficult lighting situations.
BillBingham2
09-10-2007, 11:39
Keep in mind too that the TTL shutter speed dial rotates in the reverse direction of the M4-P or the M6c (Classic). Might not be a big deal for some, deal breaker for others. I have a very early M6c and love it. I do not find any big advantages other than the built in meter, but that's enough for me to make my M6 my main camera.
B2 (;->
Well, young as I am, I'm not really used to (gu)estimating the exposure so exchanging my first M4-2 for my present M6TTL was a relief. The only thing I don't like is the colour, I'd much prefer a silver chrome one instead of my black one (just vanity! :rolleyes:)
Even if I have the built-in meter in the M6, I'm probably getting a small handheld meter anyway. I need it mostly for my Hasselblad kit but I'm sure it'll join my Leica as well.
Anyone up for a trade, silver for black? :)
Thanks B2. You've summed up my thinking. The inbuilt meter is the major difference that I'm looking for. I suspect I could get used to the TTL shutter dial quite quickly as it would be rather like using my old Nikon F Photomic in that I would make adjustments with the camera raised to my eye instead of at chest/waist level. I'm not sure how important the age isue is between the two versions though.
steve kessel
09-10-2007, 12:54
There are also different viewfinder magnifications - 0.58, 0.72, 0.85 - that you may feel are significant.
Mike Richards
09-10-2007, 13:04
Another minor point or two. The M6TTL meter is one EV more sensitive than the M6, as I recall. (I'm traveling and don't have the book with me to verify). The TTL is the obvious choice if you do a lot of flash work, but you can get good flash images with the M6 by using a flash in auto mode. In the latter case, you need to input more info into the flash (ISO, f stop). Personally, I rarely use a flash with the Leica Ms. Available light is the M's forte. Either used camera may need a CLA, but the chances of the newer TTL needing it are a bit lower just due to the age.
Funnily enough, that's what got me thinking of a change in the first place. I wear glasses and was wondering about a .58 'finder. However, when I chatted to my usual dealer, he made me realise that the .72 was ok as I only shoot as wide as 35mm, but would find focussing my 90 more difficult. The final encouragement to change was when I discovered what my M4-P was worth as a trade against an M6. Considering I paid £380 for it a year ago, I was being offered £500 against M6s costing £750 - £950.
Yes Mike, my earlier comment about age was, in fact, related to the CLA issue. I cannot foresee me using a leica for flash photography at all. I would use digitalfor that I think.
At the moment, all things being equal, the M6 TTL is coming out as favourite.
Funnily enough, that's what got me thinking of a change in the first place. I wear glasses and was wondering about a .58 'finder. However, when I chatted to my usual dealer, he made me realise that the .72 was ok as I only shoot as wide as 35mm, but would find focussing my 90 more difficult. .
I wear thick glasses (7 diopters or so) and I find the .72 of my M6 perfect for a 35mm lens. It seems to me as if the camera was built for a 35 mm lens - it's very natural to see these framelines and the capture about the entire field of view when I look through the VF. The 28mm framelines are hard to see (to me) and the 50mm are a bit small.
The choice of magnification factor should be according to the lens you use most. You can add VF magnifier for narrow angels (no perosnal experience) or external VF if you still want to use super wide angles.
Hephaestus
09-10-2007, 13:34
I find the TTL shutter speed dial quite a bit easier to manipulate, particularly with my eye at the finder, and the orientation of the dial is more intuitive to use with the built-in light meter. I like my TTL.
Ryan
Thanks everyone. Some sound and useful advice here. I'm tending towards the TTL version, but am open-minded enough to wait and see how each version looks and feels before making a final decision.
The last few months have been quite a revelation to me. After several years of 'digital frenzy', I'm now shooting more film than anything! The D200 is rarely in use despite being a great piece of kit. I think the immediacy of digital can give it a rather ephemeral quality that is ultimately unsatisfying. Or maybe I'm returning to my roots when I used a Werra and a Leningrad with a Weston light meter!
SolaresLarrave
09-10-2007, 14:29
I like my M6TTLs so much I have two of them... And-unimaginable heresy here-I use my SF20 flash with them for fill. It's a good system and I recommend it.
BillBlackwell
09-10-2007, 15:55
As long as the camera you buy is freshly CLA'd and ready to shoot, I would suggest your decision should be based on price.
Also keep in mind that with the M6TTL, if your batteries are dead, along with the meter, all flash capabilities are gone too.
waileong
09-10-2007, 16:09
I can't see why anyone wouldn't want TTL, even if the TTL isn't sophisticated.
BillBingham2
09-10-2007, 16:10
The rangefinder is the perfect platform for flash photography. No mirror block out, you see a preview of what you get without taking your eye from the finder.
I used my M4-P for flash work for years very happily.
B2 (;->
I can't see why anyone wouldn't want TTL, even if the TTL isn't sophisticated.
Both cameras have built-in light meters, it's just the flash metering that differs. At the same price, I would go for the TTL even if I don't use flash because of the larger shutter speed selector. The classic is usually slightly cheaper so you have to estimate how much the extra features are worth to you.
Also keep in mind that with the M6TTL, if your batteries are dead, along with the meter, all flash capabilities are gone too.
Meaning its flash capabilities with dead batteries are then exactly the same as the M6 non-TTL, so you don't lose anything.
Also note that if you lug around not only spare film, but also a flash unit, then taking a spare battery for the M6 isn't going to mean any significant extra load. Saying that the M6TTL's flash won't work with a dead battery is like saying your car can't do 500 miles overland if you forget to fill the tank.
Philipp
Meaning its flash capabilities with dead batteries are then exactly the same as the M6 non-TTL, so you don't lose anything.
Also note that if you lug around not only spare film, but also a flash unit, then taking a spare battery for the M6 isn't going to mean any significant extra load. Saying that the M6TTL's flash won't work with a dead battery is like saying your car can't do 500 miles overland if you forget to fill the tank.
Philipp
No, the flash won't fire at all if you don't have a battery. On the plain M6 there is a mechanic trigger circuit, on the TTL an electronic one.
Oh dear! I've started quite a debate. Sorry! Still, it's given me plenty to think about. I can't see me shooting much if anything with flash, so I don't suppose the battery issue is so important to me. My preference, if only slight, for the TTL at the moment ,is merely based on the age of the camera as I intend this to be a very long-term ownership.
Dralowid
09-11-2007, 07:28
'Oh dear! I've started quite a debate.'
Don't worry Robbo, it is not a new debate by any means. I have chrome TTL that has functioned faultlessly from new and has been dropped a couple of times. It also seems to be fairly resistant to salt water!
The TTL seems to upset the purists but it has plenty to offer.
I'd suggest the slight difference in price is justified by the slightly newer camera.
Also I suspect that most TTLs have not been used for commercial work (talk about a wild generalisation)...
You will not be disappointed.
Michael
shadowfox
09-11-2007, 08:25
robbo, here's a contrarian advice. I also have an M4-P. But I won't spend another dime to move to M6 because the only thing the M6 has is a meter, which is an electrical component, one more to break. You mentioned long term use, your M4-P is perfect for that.
It doesn't sound like you're a newbie, you can easily decouple yourself from meter if you want to :)
And use the available fund to get another glass, or filters, or ... film :D
Anyways, just another route that you may consider.
nobbylon
09-11-2007, 08:45
i would go and take a look at both the m6 and the ttl side by side, I know its only a couple of mm's but the m6 seems a lot smaller to me. i have both and i must say i prefer the M6 but thats just a personal thing. in use they feel the same apart from the shutter dial being easier to change on the ttl. both great cameras, good luck finding a good one, try and buy one from here i'd say and you should get a nice one.
Richard Marks
09-11-2007, 14:16
There is a problem with flare of the rangefinder patch with the M6. Its not horendous by any means, but I think the rangefinder patch is better on later M6TTL's. Its even better on the MP (have you looked at this?).
best wishes
Richard Marks
I would second Will's comment. Keep the M4P, and spend the money towards
lenses or another body, like an M3 or M2, for instance. I find M4P and
M6 not so different, and if you have a very early M4p, the finder might
actually be better than the M6 finder, and your M4P's alignment might
be easier to fix.
Best,
Roland.
There is a problem with flare of the rangefinder patch with the M6. Its not horendous by any means, but I think the rangefinder patch is better on later M6TTL's. Its even better on the MP (have you looked at this?).
The flare potential is either there or not...it is there in all M4-Ps, all M6 classics, nearly all M4-2s, and either all or almost all M6TTLs, as well as (IIRC) most M7s - unless the camera in question has been retrofitted with the missing condenser. The MP benefits additionally by having AR-coated finder surfaces, which I don't believe (could be wrong) ever made it into the M6TTL or M7.
Other than TTL flash, there is not a lot to separate an M6 from an M6TTL, other than the extra height of the M6TTL and the opposite-way shutter speed dial. If you are a longstanding M user, these may drive you nuts. If not, you probably won't notice the extra height and the opposite-way (and larger) shutter speed dial will make a ton of sense to you.
I agree with Roland and others - try to keep the P and save to add another body (in which case, for simplicity, I'd definitely get an M6 classic instead of the TTL, if only because the shutter speed dial difference may drive you nuts and/or cost you pictures when you're pressed).
Thanks again everyone. I really appreciate the even-handed advice you've given. I'm still undecided, but my initial concern remains, that in busy situations, juggling the camera and separate exposure meter creates extra pressure and missed shots. Perhaps I've become too meter-dependent after years of Nikon Fs and Ds and will regain my confidence in my own 'inbuilt meter' if I stick with the M4-P. I have the lenses I need - 35 'cron ASPH, 50 Planar, 90 'cron - at the moment and could only see me going for a 28 as an indulgence.
I don't think I want to add extra bodies as I've just made myself clear out cameras that I can't remember using in the last year or two and it would seem bizarre to start adding more. I guess I'll go for the newest M with a meter that I can afford. That way, I can have the best of both worlds as I will still have my sekonic as back-up
No, the flash won't fire at all if you don't have a battery. On the plain M6 there is a mechanic trigger circuit, on the TTL an electronic one.
OK, I stand corrected. I was under the impression that it worked anyway, except for the TTL exposure control.
Then again, if you carry a flash, carrying a spare battery for the M6TTL won't be a large problem in practice; the problem would be user forgetfulness more than anything else (in my case anyway :))
Philipp
As far as built-in meter - well, it's nice to have it, but if you shoot print film - exact metering in most situations is not that significant. If you shoot slides - it may be a good idea to get a camera with built-in meter. As to TTL or not, I'd repeat someone's advice and say - let price decide, go with whichever is a better deal, that is of course if you decide to buy M6 after all. Nice camera - yes, better than what you already have - only you can tell.
After all M6 classic was good enough for Jennifer Connelly in Blood diamond film ;) Maybe this lil fact will tip the scales for you. ;)
Wel,. I've done the deed! After a few minutes at the dealer's I'd made my mind up as far as TTL was concerned. What an easy camera to use! The shutter speed dial is excellent, so it was just a matter of the usual checks and talk about money. In the end I came away a happy bunny. Perhaps one of you can tell me what year it is, the serial number starts 2757, so is that about 2001?
BillBlackwell
09-13-2007, 11:25
... Perhaps one of you can tell me what year it is, the serial number starts 2757, so is that about 2001?
2001 (possibly 2002) is about right. That number would place it towards the end of the M6TTL's production. The very last group of M6TTLs had brass topcovers - there are subtle ways to tell if this is the case with yours.
Thanks Bill.
Well, I've just got my first roll thro' the TTL and what a relief to find I'd made a good choice. It's just so easy to use that you can just concentrate on composition and getting the right moment. If I get a chance, I'll upload some sample shots.
Thanks again one and all for your advice.
Taken at a 1940s Steam Railway Gala. Ok for my first try-out with the M6TTL?
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