Leica on a budget [Archive] - Rangefinderforum.com

cmedin

09-09-2007, 16:50

Before I decide I can't really get into the RF stuff (I've tried a few, and some are nice, but I just can't really seem to get serious with it) I'm considering trying out the real deal. I have a Bessa-L with 25/4 (both mint) that I am considering putting up for sale, which I think should get me enough to pick up a screw mount Leica body. Now, if I get one, what should I do lens wise? I am not so worried about optical superiority as I am getting something that 'feels right' to shoot (in other words, I care more about the camera body and rangefinder focusing than the sharpness); so I would gladly slap a cheaper lens on there just to give the camera a workout.

So: what body should I be on the lookout for, and what price range? And what would be a decent inexpensive lens (I'm assuming something russian) for it?

Edit: I should mention that the lens would be in the 50-85mm range since that's where I seem to enjoy shooting.

italocam

09-09-2007, 16:59

I suggest a M6 body with a 35mm Summicron F2.0, it's what Leica is all about.Italo C.

cmedin

09-09-2007, 17:00

I think you pretty much missed the point:

Inexpensive
50mm and up
Screwmount

But thanks for the input. Would you also recommend a $5k Hassy rig to somebody looking to dip their toes into medium format on the cheap?

wlewisiii

09-09-2007, 17:04

A CL with the 40/2 Summicron is a good choice for a budget Leica. For what you're describing, though, you'd probably be well served by a IIIC or IIIF and a pair of Elmars - 50/3.5 & 90/4. That set would come fairly cheaply (relativly speaking, of course, and provide a large amount of bang for buck.

Good luck & good light!

William

cmedin

09-09-2007, 17:10

Thanks, the Elmar 50 seems reasonably priced. Collapses too, which makes for a nice setup! :)

aad

09-09-2007, 17:25

IIIf or such with a 50 Elmar-this is so compact that even my Trip 35 seems huge-and I really prefer both the high magnification in the rangefinder, and the separate viewfinder, so much that I use auxiliary finders for everything.

cmedin

09-09-2007, 17:27

Any idea what price I should be looking at for a III with the 50 Elmar? I know KEH pricing, but I am also aware they tend to be somewhat high.

peter_n

09-09-2007, 17:33

I would agree with the above posters that a IIIC or a IIIF and an f3.5 Elmar (or FSU equivalent like an Industar 10, 22 or 50) would be ideal.

IIIC bodies seem to be a bit less expensive than the IIIF version and they both come up regularly for sale in the classifieds here.

xayraa33

09-09-2007, 17:35

with the Elmar, 325 to 500 dollars in good user shape.
you should check these Barnacks out in person if you have not already done so, as they might not be your cup of tea.
alot have faded RF patches .

peter_n

09-09-2007, 17:36

Pricing depends on condition. I bought a IIIC on eBay for $150 but it needed a CLA. Expect $200-300 for one in good user shape. You can really cut costs by buying an FSU lens. Their optics are excellent.

cmedin

09-09-2007, 17:44

Will the FSU versions mount OK on all III bodies?

Also, faded RF patches would be a royal pain -- is this something easily fixable? It's the main gripe I've had with most RFs I've tried so far. Yes, I am aware I'm asking a lot for such an old camera, but I really can't see forking out the dough for a perfect condition M when the same money will buy me some outstanding MF gear. Hoping to get a taste of Leica for a relatively modest sum, but obviously I don't want something that's going to be in poor enough shape to turn me off the whole thing.

xayraa33

09-09-2007, 17:46

get a CV Bessa R or a Canon P.

ChadHahn

09-09-2007, 17:54

Don't neglect to look at the IIs. I have a IIf with collapsible 50mm Summicron that is great.

The only thing that is different between a IIf and a IIIf is the slow shutter speed dial. How often do you need to go below 1/25th of a second anyway?

cmedin

09-09-2007, 17:56

Hmm, I hadn't thought about the II. For some reason everything I read kept saying go for the III for a budget setup. I'll go read up on them, thanks!

wlewisiii

09-09-2007, 17:59

Will the FSU versions mount OK on all III bodies?

All the FSU lenses I am aware of will mount just fine on a Leica III. The Industar 26 and 50 are just as good as the Elmars and much cheaper.

Also, faded RF patches would be a royal pain -- is this something easily fixable? It's the main gripe I've had with most RFs I've tried so far. Yes, I am aware I'm asking a lot for such an old camera, but I really can't see forking out the dough for a perfect condition M when the same money will buy me some outstanding MF gear. Hoping to get a taste of Leica for a relatively modest sum, but obviously I don't want something that's going to be in poor enough shape to turn me off the whole thing.

I agree with Xayraa33 then, a nice Bessa R or a Canon P would be the best way to test the waters. Canon also made excellent Barnack style cameras - the IVSb can often be found $150 - $200 in good user condition.

William

cmedin

09-09-2007, 18:06

Will a Bessa R really give me the taste of Leica though? I have a Bessa L as mentioned above, and while it's a nice camera for what it is it does convey a rather cheap-ish impression and I would never buy one with the intention of having it last for a decade. What I'm hoping for is to see the craftsmanship and precision of the classic Leicas, but obviously I want one that's usable as well; not with a rangefinder patch faded to where it can hardly be seen. If this is an unreasonable expectation based on my budget, I understand.

wlewisiii

09-09-2007, 18:13

Not really unreasonable, but I'll suggest looking at the Canons again as they had excellent production values and quality but do go for less currently than the equivalent level of Leica. The Bessas have done nothing but improve in quality but the R is still fairly early on in the line's developement. My R suits my needs just fine with my Canon lenses, but your needs are probably better suited by a good old school thread mount camera.

William

alternatve

09-09-2007, 18:35

If you want to go the Leica way, this is how I did it.

I got a BGD grade Leica IIIc from KEH and russian lenses like the Industar 50, the Jupiter 3 and Jupiter 9.

The Industar 50 is what I would recommend you to get as your first lens as it is very compact while folded. It has a tessar lens design which is excellent and still in production in sony digicams. The workmanship of this lens is usually solid and is available cheaply, around $25 USD without shipping. I recommend ebay sellors alex-photo and leon1965jazz for my russian gear needs.

Samuel

cmedin

09-09-2007, 18:35

BillBingham2

09-09-2007, 19:12

There is a difference between a Bessa and a IIc or IIf. The Bessa has a built in meter, better viewfinder/rangefinder, is much quicker to load and is lighter in your hand. The Leica blends into my hand, is quieter (once CLAed) and takes a special cable release attachment (like a Nikon).

I am not a Leica screw mount expert, but a IIc would be the way I would go. The selftimer seems like a silly extra, slower shutter speeds may not be but that is for you to decide. As cost is an issue, a IIc or IIIc would be less expensive. Budget a CLA if you can.

Lens wise you can get a fine 50/2 and I would go with either a Leica or a Nikkor, both are great lenses. In the 85/90 range, a lot depends upon how fast you want her. The Steinheil Munchen 85/2.8 is a great option if you can find one, the CV 75 may be the perfect inbetween option There is a deal with a GREAT finder from cameraquest.com, or at least there was one. Moving up in price is the Nikkor 85/2 or several Leica options, but price goes up fast.

B2 (;->

wlewisiii

09-09-2007, 19:38

I will take a considerable look at the Canons. Compared to the II/III series Leicas how do the Canons shape up prons/cons? Sorry for all the questions, but you guys are an excellent resource and this is one area of camera gear that I am very clueless in.

There are a number of smaller detail differences between the Leica II/III & the Canon III/IV series of cameras, but the important differences are in the viewfinders. Canon's major innovations were to use a combined VF/RF and to have multiple magnifications. There is a lever under the rewind knob that is marked F, 1x, & 1.5x. The F position gives a 50mm FOV with an accuracy sufficent for a slower lens like the 50/2 or 50/1.9 collapsibles. The 1:1 1x position gives the FOV of a 100mm lens (which is very usable for a 90mm lens as well) and is more accurate in focusing. The 1.5x gives the greatest accuracy in focusing and is very useful for larger aperture lenses (the 50/1.5 springs to mind) and gives a FOV appropriate for the 135mm lens. Anything wider than 50 will require an accessory VF but that shouldn't be an issue based on your earlier preferences. A Leica II/III by contrast requires an external VF for anything other than a 50mm lens and has a separate higher magnification RF window and the 50mm FOV VF window.

I really need to save the pennies for another IVSb - I had one and regret selling it. I found it much nicer in use than the one Leica III I've had a chance to use. Build quality seemed just about the same to me.

Peter Dechert, who has his own forum here, is pretty much the Canon RF guru. A question or two over in his forum might be useful for you.

In the end, I'd recommend the IVSb with a nice chrome Canon 50/1.8 or 50/1.5 lens. When you do want to go longer, the Canon 100/3.5 is another lens that works very well with this camera. But then again, I am a Canonista... ;)

William

digitalintrigue

09-09-2007, 19:59

You might also look into Nicca bodies. The feel of my IIIf and my Nicca IIIs is very much the same. The slow speeds the IIIs are a little erratic; the more I exercise the shutter the more accurate they get. :)

Sonnar2

09-10-2007, 06:52

http://www.taunusreiter.de/Cameras/Leica_Barnack_08.jpg

You want a Leica for cheap? This one was actually cheaper than all of my CANON RF at ebay and WORKS...245USD not including the brightline finder

It isn't bigger than your Bessa-L, but full metal.

It was the predecessor of the Bessa-R, 65 years earlier.

If you need 1/1000s buy a Leica IIIa (but no black originally)

If you want a meter you need a Leitz CL but this is just half a Leica, and most have problems with meter. So better look for a M6.

harry01562

09-10-2007, 15:03

I'm a Canon collector, but I also own other gear. If you want to stay relatively inexpensive, but still try the Leica, I'd suggest a nice IIIa. It can be had with the
Summar 50/2, which is a very interesting lens. It has that soft so-called Leica Glow, and is fun to shoot with. It's small, collapses, and cheap. Main problem is usually haze, but cleaning is easy and cheap.

The IIIf is a nice camera, but quite a bit higher in price. From a ROI standpoint, I'd stay with a IIIa. You can always add a Summitar lens, also cheap, and get a different look to your shots. On another tack, the 50/1.8 Canon lens is a fine performer, and undervalued.

Harry

MartinP

09-10-2007, 15:13

Isn't "Leica on a budget" spelled "Zorki-1", "Zorki-5" or "Zorki-6" ???

;)

Eric T

09-10-2007, 15:34

I suggest a Leica IIc, IIIc, IIf, or IIIf. The only difference between the c and the f is flash synchronization on the f at 1/25 or 1/30th of a second. That's not very useful and I never use flash with an RF anyway.
I also agree with a previous post, I never use the slow shutter speeds on my IIIf so a IIIc would do.
So taking these things into account, your best buy would probably be a IIC.
For lenses, I like my 50mm f/2 Summicron. It is collapsible and fast.
Good luck!
Eric

rxmd

09-10-2007, 23:18

Before I decide I can't really get into the RF stuff (I've tried a few, and some are nice, but I just can't really seem to get serious with it) I'm considering trying out the real deal.
Dou you mean the real deal as in a Leica, or as in a good, functional, professional, high-quality rangefinder camera?

If the real deal is a Leica to you, then get a Leica screwmount, wait for a good deal and hope that the camera is in good shape.

If you want a good camera, get a Canon. Build quality is not any worse than on the Leicas IMHO, the finders are better, and the cameras are simply much more functional than the old screwmount Leicas and better to use.

Philipp

branki

09-11-2007, 00:16

I might be completely out of theme here, but why did no one suggest a Bessa T?
It is obviously inspired in the leica LTM, modernized, with quick M-mount, built in light meter and really cheap nowadays.

And for what I've heard, the build quality is far superior from that on the bessa L.

just my o.2$

shadowfox

09-11-2007, 08:43

HuubL

09-11-2007, 09:37

You want build/heft, try a FED-2. You can't get a higher quality/price ratio. I admit, you have to shop around and perhaps you buy two-three bad ones before a good one, but even then you've not lost more than a $100 (and that's including a lens)!

danwilly

09-11-2007, 10:59

The IIIf, no light meter, no parallax correction, no frames for anything other than 50 mm....way too limiting for serious shooting. Get the Bessa R and buy some good Leica glass and you will get the best of both worlds.

ferider

09-11-2007, 15:00

I think you pretty much missed the point:
Inexpensive
50mm and up
Screwmount

I have used LTM Leicas and the Bessa R (and various M mount cameras).

The Canon P is impossible to beat for its current used price, IMO.
Get that, and a screw mount 50/2 Summicron or a 50/1.4 Canon LTM
lens and you will be happy for a long time.

You get the "Leica M feeling" for less than the price of a good Barnack body.

Best,

Roland.

cmedin

09-11-2007, 15:34

Seems like Canon is a popular choice. :) How does the P compare to the IV?

cmedin

09-11-2007, 15:37

Dou you mean the real deal as in a Leica, or as in a good, functional, professional, high-quality rangefinder camera?

If the real deal is a Leica to you, then get a Leica screwmount, wait for a good deal and hope that the camera is in good shape.

If you want a good camera, get a Canon. Build quality is not any worse than on the Leicas IMHO, the finders are better, and the cameras are simply much more functional than the old screwmount Leicas and better to use.

Philipp

Well, I was hoping to experience that 'jewel like quality' and feel, together with some choice lenses down the road. If the Canon would get me there, and be an overall better value, I'm all for it. The Bessas, while nice cameras of their own, don't really fall into that category from what I understand. :)

ferider

09-11-2007, 15:40

Seems like Canon is a popular choice. :) How does the P compare to the IV?

See, for instance, Karen's write-up:

http://www.photoethnography.com/ClassicCameras/index-frameset.html?CanonP.html~mainFrame

The P has parallax corrected 35/50/100mm framelines in a 1:1 finder,
and a metal shutter (cann't burn a hole in it ...), two of the most important
differences.

Incredibly robust cameras ....

Cheers,

Roland.

cmedin

09-11-2007, 15:42

ferider

09-11-2007, 15:43

I was reading Karen's site earlier today and the one thing that stood out as 'neat' on the IV was the switchable magnification viewfinder. Is it not really all that? It seemed like a great concept...

I'll see if I can check out a P locally somewhere.

It all depends on how you shoot of course. But 1:1 constant magnification
means you can shoot with both eyes open - which some of us really love.

Rolan.

cmedin

09-11-2007, 15:47

The concept it pretty foreign to me, but I'm willing to give it a go. :)

alternatve

09-11-2007, 19:03

It all depends on how you shoot of course. But 1:1 constant magnification
means you can shoot with both eyes open - which some of us really love.

Rolan.

I find that I can shoot with both eyes open even on my IIIc. It's like a viewfinder mask over my eyes.

The IIIf, no light meter, no parallax correction, no frames for anything other than 50 mm....way too limiting for serious shooting. Get the Bessa R and buy some good Leica glass and you will get the best of both worlds.

Dan,

If we were talking about practical needs, then all classic cameras, Canon, Nikon, Leica are out of the question. But in this forum, I don't think it's all about practicality, but more of what you feel and desire. A Toyota is a perfectly good car, but some people prefer a vintage BMW with lousier brakes, engine that guzzles fuel, high maintanance cost, etc. Just my opinion

I don't think it's the matter of the brand anymore, but whether the camera feels "right" to you. Thats the most important thing that will either see the camera unused 3 months from now or a daily user.

Samuel

wolves3012

09-12-2007, 04:26

I'll add a vote for the Industar 50 (or 22) if you get a screw-mount body. Tack-sharp and the collapsible version makes for a pocketable setup on a small body like the II or III.

Ken Ford

09-12-2007, 05:16

cmedin

09-12-2007, 05:56

The P looks better and better. The only bummer is that there seems to be some serious disagreement on collapsing lenses. It'd be nice to stick an I-22 or something on there, but everything I read is very conflicting opinions/experiences on what works and what doesn't.

alternatve

09-12-2007, 06:20

If you are considering a P, you might want to consider a Canon 7 as well. It's a better camera then the P and has multiple framelines. It has a coupled meter as well, but it's usually down, so I wouldn't bother with it.

Samuel

Sonnar2

09-12-2007, 09:46

You want a Leica, buy a Leica III. If you want a lookalike-Leica buy a FED. If you want the best screwmount user of the 50's, buy a Canon P, or a 7 (best for the buck). The P was my first Rangefinder camera, starting of a desease...

ERV

09-12-2007, 10:00

A Leica IIc or f or IIIc is a good starting point.
I have a IIc that I take on every trip along with its big sisters, my M bodies. I also suggest Youxin Ye for a CLA and prism replacement if you need it. He's fast and very reasonable. You can always find TM bodies on ebay, there are several reputable sellers who always have them listed. I also agree with a Russian lens or a 50mm summicron if you want to spent a little more. Fedka is a reliable Russian camera dealer in NYC.
I had a Bessa T and although it has a light meter and easier film loading, it doesn't compare to a working thread mount Leica.

cmedin

09-12-2007, 11:02

Right now I'm looking at both a II/III and a P. The P does seem like a hell of a camera, and very Leica-like. I'm not looking for the Leica NAME, I'm looking for that solid quality feel and function, and from what I hear it sounds like the Canon P is just as finely made a machine, with some perks.

edit: I initially had Leica in mind since I wasn't aware of the Canons, always thought they were more like the Hi-Matics or Canonets. :)

LeicaTom

09-12-2007, 11:11

If you want a Leica.......buy a Leica :)

I cut my collecting and shooting teeth on a 1939 IIIa all the way back in like 1989, the IIIa is still the BEST way to start the experience of the RANGEFINDER way of shooting, you can find a clean one for under $400 with case and try for a uncoated Summitar lens, my 1939 was the "bomb" it`s one of the few cameras I regret selling, while it shot so well and was so much fun to use.....it was interesting when I moved up to IIIC`s and IIIF`s to shoot with, but I always went back to play with the uncoated Summitar and IIIa for available light and slide film shots

Summar`s a great little lens too, will give that "Leica Glow" with the blk n wht photos

Shop around there`s lot`s of IIIa`s out there, buy the one that`s in tip top shape, even wouldn`t go wrong if you found one that was recently CLA`d

Tom

jolefler

09-12-2007, 12:55

from my perspective:

I thought I wanted one (a Leica) and bought a few look/sound/feel-alikes that I thought would save me a few bucks. As it turned out, I wasn't satisfied until I did own a Leica. It just ate away at my innards, despite the fact that most were capable of giving great results. In fact, I probably can't tell the difference in the photos from all of them I've made.

I was in the position of not having the opportunity to use a Leica for an extended period of time to determine whether it was really for me, or not. I just waited until one came along that I could afford, and grabbed it. A Barnack, which was immediately sent to Youxin for a CLA. I've had four rolls through it since getting it back. Had to tune my printing to accomodate the uncoated Elmar, blah, blah...the bottom line is I wouldn't give it up for anything now. It's somehow sweeter than all of the others in my hands, fits in my pocket going everywhere, never gets left at home. You can see it in a recent post in the "show off your I, II, II..." thread.

I thought I didn't need the "NAME", either....but Manny, it's one fine machine! :p

dee

09-12-2007, 12:57

One point about the Leica IIc / IIf - there were fewer of them , so more expensive.
The IIIc is the most plentiful, mine worls well with an Industar collapsible , or a Jupiter 8 [ F2 ]
But I don't believe that I would sell a more modern camera , as it is really a vintage experience ...
If you simply wish to sample a taste of vintage Leica useage - a serviced Zorki or Fed 1 from a reputable USSR dealer - could help you decide ... but there is nothing quite like taking photographs with a 1933 black Leica II - even if it is almost worn away outside !

dee

LeicaTom

09-12-2007, 22:14

cmedin,

Here`s just what the doctor ordered.....I don`t know the seller, but this is at a good price now @ $81 -

http://cgi.ebay.com/Leica-IIIa-w-Summar-Nice-Clean-Working-Body_W0QQitemZ110167923522QQihZ001QQcategoryZ30030 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Check it out, maybe it`s your "FIRST" Leica?

Tom

Leigh Youdale

09-12-2007, 22:44

I have a Bessa 3A and lenses. Great to use, no question. Big viewfinder, TTL meter, lever wind, rangefinder clear.
But I "hankered" after a Leica. Couldn't afford an M4 or M6 so went on EBay and bought a 'gold plated' FED dressed up as a fake Leica II with a fake Elmar 3.5/50 collapsible lens thinking it would satisfy me. Put one film through it. It works, sort of. OK but not great.
Loved the size and feel. Put it away. Went and bought two Leica IIIf's straight away - one with the genuine Elmar and the other with the 2/50 Summitar. Had them both CLA'd thinking I'd keep one and sell the other. Kept them both! They just feel better than the FED.
I use them all now except the FED. I'll probably unload it at the next camera fair in my city.
The Voigtlander lenses are LTM except for the Nokton so I can also use them on the IIIf without the bayonet adaptors and with their viewfinders but generally i just stick with the 50 focal length Leica lenses.

If you want a Leica, go buy one. if you buy a FED my guess is you'll still eventually want a Leica!

rxmd

09-13-2007, 01:35

Put the FED in the classifieds here, you're practically guaranteed to find a buyer. :)

If the choice is between the screwmount Leica and a Canon-P, in my book it's a non-issue. The Canon P is much, much better from a usability point of view (no need to trim every film before loading, backdoor loading instead of bottom loading, much better finder with 1:1 and framelines for various focal lengths, better rangefinder accuracy, less awkward and non-spinning shutter speed selector). The Leica has just three things speaking for it: the nostalgia of shooting like in the 1930s, the Leica name (whatever that's worth in practice), and a certain advantage in compactness that brings with it a huge disadvantage in ergonomics. Two of the three can be had with a Zorki. If presented with that choice, assuming that one doesn't lust for the Leica because of the name, I would choose the P any day; it's simply a much better camera.

tyrone.s

09-13-2007, 03:00

Now, if I get one, what should I do lens wise? I am not so worried about optical superiority as I am getting something that 'feels right' to shoot (in other words, I care more about the camera body and rangefinder focusing than the sharpness); so I would gladly slap a cheaper lens on there just to give the camera a workout.

I think that if you're going to go for a Leica IIIf on a budget then a collapsible Elmar would be the go - or even a collapsible Industar at $9.95 plus $14.95 postage - that price is going to be hard to beat in terms of return on your picture taking dollar. My reasoning for these lenses on a IIIf is that being 50 mm units they won't need an external viewfinder and they both collapse down into a really nice user units that you can carry around - this is just bliss. To me this combination just feels right - small and pocketable and with nothing extraneous: no extra viewfinders, clip on light meters and so on. For a while there I was using my IIIf with a clip on multi-finder (one of those Soviet turret style ones) and a Voigtlander 35/1.7. But it felt ungainly and a little bulky and it was basically awkward. After a while I started to think about getting one of those clip on Voigtlander light meters - mercifully I came to my senses and ended up getting a BESSA R 'with in built light meter and combo viewfinder with framelines!' But that's another story.

At any I've used the Elmar and the Industar and they're both really good lenses - externally very similiar but apparently quite different on the inside. If you look for an Elmar you might want to get some opinions on red dial versus black dial variations. I have a red dial version and red dials are supposed to be better with colour film - I don't know.

The IIIf / any ltm thread Leica is a hell-of-a-camera and I'm sure either lens would make you a happy camper. I'm not sure about telephoto lenses. Let us know how you go.

cmedin

09-13-2007, 03:51

That is pretty, though I bet it'll jump up a fair bit from $81 before the end. :)

cmedin

09-16-2007, 15:43

It's at $228 with some time to go. The Summar is described as 'hazy' though which has me wondering.

In my search I did come across an opportunity to purchase a CLA'd III for $220. How does the plain III compare to its siblings? I looked at the CQ site and it appears you lose 1/1000 speed, closer-together VF/RF windows... but in practice how does it fare?

(I canned the Canon P thoughts after I read up on it having issues with collapsible lenses)

mike goldberg

09-16-2007, 20:28

Hi... This is for Tyrone or anyone else. I've just bought a IIIf and have quite a good Fed 50/3.5 collapsible. If an I-22 will mount and focus OK on the IIIf, can I assume the Fed 50 will, as well?
Thanks

rxmd

09-16-2007, 22:42

(I canned the Canon P thoughts after I read up on it having issues with collapsible lenses)
Canon built collapsible lenses themselves (Serenar 50/1.9). If there is an issue with your particular lens, that issue can be taken care of with a small rubberband around the lens barrel. The Bessa also has "issues" in theory that Internet forums are full of, and I used it with a collapsible Industar-22 all the time. The P is still a much better camera ;)

Philipp

cmedin

09-17-2007, 03:55

The one lens style I'm looking to use is the old collapsible Elmar. How does the rubberband trick work?

LeicaTom

09-17-2007, 06:26

CLA`d III for $220 that`s a really good price can`t go wrong with that

Tom

rxmd

09-17-2007, 09:03

The one lens style I'm looking to use is the old collapsible Elmar. How does the rubberband trick work?
Easy. If your collapsible lens hits a light baffle or whatever inside the chamber when collapsing, put a rubberband (an O-ring, a plastic cable binder, whatever) around the front portion of the barrel. This prevents the barrel from collapsing all the way. The lens then stands out a little bit, depending on the thickness of your rubberband, but the Elmar is still nicely compact.

I don't know if the Canon P has problems with collapsible lenses, and if it does, with which ones. Usually there are a lot of Internet rumours about that sort of thing. If you have body and lens before you, check before collapsing the lens. Put a cable release on the camera, open and lock the shutter on "B", look in the body from the back and collapse the lens. Even better, ask here on the Canon forum if they use Elmars or collapsible Industars with their Canon P, you're practically guaranteed to find somebody who has actually tried it (instead of regurgitating stuff read on the internet) or who can give you first-hand advice.

Philipp

Virgil

09-17-2007, 09:20

I would go for the Leica IIIC postwar and certainly an Elmar 3.5 50mm Collapsible.
For your 2nd lens a 90mm Emar would be nice. I have three 50mm Elmar's from the 1930's and they work GREAT! Also consider a 50mm finder, they make a world of difference!!!

Spider67

09-17-2007, 09:34

I was reading Karen's site earlier today and the one thing that stood out as 'neat' on the IV was the switchable magnification viewfinder. Is it not really all that? It seemed like a great concept...

I'll see if I can check out a P locally somewhere.

Compared to the Bessa my Canon IV has a very smooth and quiet shutter but the curtains are so holey that you get a full frame double exposure. the viewfinder trick is nice as it also enlarges the viewfinder spot....but it's considerably darker than the Bessa's.
So until I have the curtains replaced...the best Canon IV feature is it's 50/1,8 Serenar I am using currently on my Bessa R

cmedin

09-17-2007, 16:59

Some more candidates have appeared on the radar screen...

Leica IIF RD, 1/1000th speed, 1953/54 model, recent service, $275

'Mint' Leica IIIc (waiting for pics), $290

Leica IIIc CLA'd by Youxin a year ago, slightly weak rangefinder patch, $250 shipped

I think the last one is out because I want as good a rangefinder as possible. The IIF RD seems like a nice deal. Opinions?

LeicaTom

09-17-2007, 21:22

Hummmmm does the IIF RD have an f3.5 50mm Elmar on it, or it`s just a body????

As always it`s BEST to try to get a lens out of every deal....but, doesn`t always work out that way, but a "mint" IIIC for $290 is a tad bit pricey....depends on what year, if it`s BEFORE 400000 it`s a deal :) - or if it has a lens too that`s a good price

*I sold a VERY VERY clean 1946 IIIC body - 2 months ago for $225*
(great little camera)

Tom

cmedin

09-18-2007, 04:04

Based on the prices I've seen I think it'd be near-impossible to get a nice condition body WITH a lens for < $300 unless the lens itself is a paperweight. :) If you know otherwise though, please let me know!

LeicaTom

09-18-2007, 04:18

cmedin.......check ur messages

Tom

jolefler

09-18-2007, 04:20

I got a II body & 50/3.5 Elmar for <$160 delivered very recently. The glass is very nice with hardly any marks on the front element. I added a CLA to the price for $75, a really good investment as the camera was barely functional as received.

BTW, I'm very pleased with the results from the camera. It's ALL they rave about, and easy to use, as well. I don't regret the decision, despite not being in the market at the time.

cmedin

09-18-2007, 04:24

jolefler

09-18-2007, 04:35

I took a chance on an eBay auction. A long time waiting, though, combined with an early morning weekday auction ending time. Did a lot of picture staring and serial # checking during the time before auction end....as it was a II, I didn't want to end up with a well-done Russian counterfeit!

LeicaTom

09-18-2007, 05:10

Patience

is also good advice :)

I still think there`s great camera`s out there still to be had for under $400..maybe even $300 (while I just bought a IIF BD with a f3.5 50mm Elmar recently for $200)

A IIIa with a Summar or a early Summitar

or a IIIC with an Elmar a Summitar or if your lucky a Summarit

IIIF`s are a little crazy now with prices $$$$ I don`t really know why????
.....but they seem to be the one LTM`s that fly around crazy in prices, up and down, they too can be found every now and then for under $400 with a clean lens

Everyone has their own opinon for their favorite LTM, but mine is the IIIC built before 400000
(really 397600) is the best of the "user" LTM`s for build quality and durability

They are harder to find in good condition, while so many were used up because of the war, but despite some of them looking pretty rough outside they have held up really well in the tests of time and still take great pictures!

:)

Tom

BillBingham2

09-18-2007, 11:16

Patience must be more than a word

It must be a way of life if you are looking for a deal. EvilBay is full of wonderful deals and blackholes. Take your time, watch the classifieds, EvilBay, CraigsList for a good camera. Ask questions, save money, ask questions, save more money. A good camera will come, there are hundreds out there, you just need to find the one that is right for you.

Pick your price, snipe it when the time is right. Budget a CLA for the body and lens.

There is something about a Leica the way it blends into your hand. While the old IIIa from my father feels different from my Ms, they both are something special. My Bessas are wonderful cameras, fun, well built, they fit well in my hand, but they are not Leicas. The only other camera that comes close (very close) for me is the Nikon S3. I never owned a Canon or a Minolta, held lots of them and they never felt as good. I’m not saying the Canon P is not a wonderful camera, it is. It just is not me. Every one has a different feeling, different opinion, what tool feels better to them. Is it a 12oz hammer or a 16oz that works better, only you can say? Is it a Craftsman grip or a Stanley that feels better, only you can say?

Watch, ask for pictures, ask them to run a roll, take a look. While viewfinders can be cleaned RF patches can not often be brightened. Find the right camera/lens combo and shoot with it every week, every day if you can, make it a part of you.

B2 (;->

MichaelHarris

09-18-2007, 20:03

cmedin, clear your inbox. I have some more pictures for you but it won't let me send you a messege.

cmedin

09-19-2007, 03:53

cmedin, clear your inbox. I have some more pictures for you but it won't let me send you a messege.

Done.. sorry!

cmedin

09-19-2007, 15:39

Happy conclusion: a IIf RD is now on the way to my house, and now I need to go lens shopping. I really really appreciate everyone's input and thoughts.

JNewell

09-19-2007, 16:18

Why so few recommendations for a IIIa or IIa, compared to the IIIc / IIc and later? I know the body was changed to single-piece die cast , and the RF and VF windows moved closer - are these that significant, or is there something else?

xayraa33

09-19-2007, 17:22

there was no IIa , just the II.

the IIIc/IIc and the IIIf/IIf were a major improvement over the III. IIIa and even the IIIb.
the shutter curtains ran at a higher speed for more accurate higher shutter speed settings, ball bearings were introduced at the shutter drum on some models, improved curtain braking, improved curtain tensioning gearing, lighter shutter release tensioned spring, an improved more accurate slow speed escapment for the models that had the slower shutter speeds, improved but still squinty finder (IIIf RD ST), die cast body, one piece top, different frame counter gearing, closer rf/ vf eyepiece and diopter lever (save the IIIb), better accessory shoe(IIIc/IIIf),
Flash sync (IIf/IIIf) and a better all around feel to the bodies in fit and finish save for the lousy chrome plating on some IIc/IIIc .

jolefler

09-20-2007, 00:09

Congrats and enjoy!! (even enjoy the lens hunting process). Will you check out the body upon arrival with one of your CV lenses?

cmedin

09-20-2007, 04:18

I actually sold some gear and don't have any LTM lenses right now. Ordered an inexpensive Industar-50 just to have something to put on it, with plans to search for a nice Elmar... although who knows, the Industar might surprise me; some people have posted some fantastic pictures taken with them. Just gotta hope the 'russian roulette' is in my favor on this one!

cmedin

09-21-2007, 17:03

It arrived today. No lens yet, but to all the people who said 'if you want a Leica, buy a Leica': THANK YOU. What a beautiful, beautiful piece of work this thing is. The rangefinder image is amazing, even in low light the double-image is sharp and crisp and easy to see. All the mechanics look so finely tuned and well built that it blows my mind.

I'll post pictures when I get the lens and take it out for a spin. :)

MichaelHarris

09-21-2007, 19:36

That baby is as smooth as butter huh? My best street shot was taken with that bad boy. If I get famous send it back and I'll scratch my name in the bottom for you :)

Oh yeah, soemone send cm a lens to use til his gets there. I already got my loaner loaned out.

richard_l

09-22-2007, 02:15

It arrived today. No lens yet, but to all the people who said 'if you want a Leica, buy a Leica': THANK YOU. What a beautiful, beautiful piece of work this thing is. The rangefinder image is amazing, even in low light the double-image is sharp and crisp and easy to see. All the mechanics look so finely tuned and well built that it blows my mind.I have a red dial IIf with a red scale Elmar. It is my favorite camera by far. It has a certain unique charm and elegance, which is matched by its mechanical excellence. Since getting it, my other cameras have been gathering dust.

Richard