View Full Version : If I replaced my M7 with an R3A ... would I be crazy?
As I've stated in past threads I'm no big fan of my M7 but I do like the idea of an M mount body with AE for those times where I don't want to worry about exposure ... I just want the shot! I thought the M7 would fulfill this need and don't get me wrong, it does, but when I pick it up and use it I am hard pressed to actually like the camera as an M ... compared to my M2 it's an expensive phony! I'm impressed with what it can do but in this mood I'm currently in to only use cameras that function for me in the way I want ... it seems an unneccesary status driven luxury.
For the rough and tumble of street shooting, which is something I want to do a lot more of, would an R3A fill the position? I know it would have more shutter noise than the M7 and probably not the longevity ... but at $540.00 brand new someone could snatch it off me and throw it under a passing bus and I could have another one in my hands in a matter of days without breaking the bank ... or my heart for that matter!
I will probably sell the M7 irrespective of my descision over a suitable replacement ... but I would like a few opinions on the R3A option! :)
If you don't wear glasses and want to shoot in the 50-90 range, without pushing too much on the shallow dof front, this is a very good body. In fact, I use it mainly with 50 C Sonnar, which I shoot at f2.8 most of the time. On the other hand, if you want something as good, or better than M7 in terms of overall shooting experience for the classic 28-50 range ( I do not want to start the brand war, it is simply a matter of functionality and above all VF experience) the Zeiss Ikon is the tool of choice. I use it for the 35 and 50 lenses, and that includes the 35/1.2 Nokton with critical focusing needs and critical viewfinder demands...
ClaremontPhoto
08-18-2007, 04:25
The R3A is a fine camera, as is the Zeiss Ikon.
Both replicate the functions of the Leica M7 and would suit your needs.
The shutter noise thing is really not an issue in day to day photography.
Maybe get an R3A now before you sell the Leica and see if you like it?
It would be the perfect camera for your 75mm lens. :)
mfunnell
08-18-2007, 05:47
I think it might help to know what it is about the M7 that you don't like. I'm guessing that's somewhat intangible - but it might be worth some more thought, if only so you don't replace it with another camera you'll also dislike.
...Mike
I had some of your same concerns when carying the M6 around. I was always fearful of knocking it or taking it into the city to photograph for fear of it getting stolen. The Bessas (R3A, R2A) are nice cameras that feel solid but not overly heavy. They handle well. Although they need the side grip to balance correctly using a shoulder strap. I have sold the M6 and will probably go back to an R2A (I like the wider vf). The R3A vf is tight for any lens under 50mm. It will do a 40mm but you can't see anything around the frameines and I love to see what is happening outside the framelines. The shutter is louder than the M series and does draw attention sometimes, but it is not SLR loud.
If the M7 is selling well, I would sell it if this is what you would like to do.
The R3A will give you what you need, plus some shutter noise.
If you want a street camera with one lens, get a Hexar AF or a Konica IIIA.
Well, I think it's crazy, but that's because the M7 was the first M I ever held (just to hold it, you know, then I pressed the button and wound it on *sigh* I bought it the next day :) )
The M3 and M2 mmmm, maybe I'll feel differfent about them after a good CLA. But the VF on the M7 is brighter and clearer and the RF path more contrasty.
The only RF I'd consider instead is the ZI.
In my opinion the VF is the most important aspect of a RF (or any camera). If you can't see precisely what you're taking a picture of - how can you capture the Decisive Moment (TM) ?
colin
At daylight, the R3* viewfinder beats any Leica, any time.
Different in the semi dark ...
Roland.
I think my M7 is a good camera but I also think the money tied up in it doesn't justify it's capabilities when maybe less would do for the purpose I envisage. Mine has the flary viewfinder which I'm not prepared to upgrade due to the cost ... I would bet I can't get it done here in Oz! :rolleyes:
Perhaps an R2A would suit me better as I do value the 35mm focal length ... the Ikon looks like a good thing but it's close to two and a half times the price of the Bessa. Whatever I buy it will predominantly be used for candid work and my M2 for the more premeditated subjects.
I am trying to get mentally into the attitude of treating the camera as the box that traps the light ... and the real value coming from lens quality and my own perception/interpretation of the scene or subject!
As a matter of interest I took some of the best (in my mind) photographs I have taken for a while today with a Yashica Electro. I've had the camera for ages but have never bothered to get a battery for it so consequently hadn't used it. For some reason this morning I took the battery out of my Canon SLR and with a combination of tape and aluminium foil fitted it in the GSN and put a roll of bw400cn in it. It was a liberating experience to use a camera that I don't particularly like ... I just used it for what it was intended for and filled the viewfinder with what I liked and pressed the shutter! :p
I think Leica does the robust, mechanical RF camera thing the best. With an electronic camera, I'd just as happily use a Bessa RxA or a Hexar RF. I never, in my head, warmed up to the idea of the electronic Leica M7. So IMO, you would not be crazy.
BJ Bignell
08-18-2007, 07:49
If you already have a camera that suits your needs, why change? It may be viewed by a status symbol as some, but do you really feel some sort of guilt about owning it? Does it matter if you really use it as a camera?
I don't know what type of rough-and-tumble street shooting you do, but what are the chances that someone will mug you and/or throw it under a bus? If you really are in dangerous situations, you have insurance, right?
Keep the Leica, as there's obviously nothing wrong with it.
the crazy thing is how leica couldn't add features gracefully. imho, the m7 is clumsy and makeshift. the controls on the r3a, zeiss ikon, hexar rf, and contax g are all "of a piece".
I don't know what type of rough-and-tumble street shooting you do, but what are the chances that someone will mug you and/or throw it under a bus?
And if you do get into some rough and tumble the M7 is heavier than the other cameras. You know, if you really have to use it. Insurance? The M7 is your insurance.
imho, the m7 is clumsy and makeshift. the controls on the r3a, zeiss ikon, hexar rf, and contax g are all "of a piece".
What are you talking about? These cameras don't have any controls. :)
OK, there is one little thing. The exposure correction/adjustment is not easy to use while you are looking through the camera. In fact,you have to hold the camera pointing down with most of the fingers on both hands, but leaving the left and right thumbs and right index finger free, but, apart from that, what's wrong with all the other controls?
colin
Every M can be seen as a "status-driven luxury," especially when compared to my-camera-is-a-light-tight-box-that-only-holds-quality-glass concept/alternatives. as you've stated even your lowly Electro matches the purpose as much as your precious M2. you've already made your decision. you should get that expensive phony M7 into the hands of someone who can appreciate it and use it, and buy the R3. Why the M2 can't be used for "rough and tumble street photography" is mystery to me. That's what the thing was made for! :) ...or is it too good for that? ;)
I have R2A and M7. I love both of them. Leica is no doubt of better quality and more quiet. Bessa R2A is still a very good camera even if it is not as precise as Leica.
I worry about M7 a lot more too. R2A is easy to replace in case anything bad happens to it. Bessa has less weight and makes a better low-weight set. I prefer my M7 for critical focusing with fast lenses wide open . It is much easier to focus with a longer base lenght. For low-light work the extra weight and better damping of the shutter makes a difference too.
Metering pattern is very diffent as well. I prefer Leica over Bessa but I can live with either one.
For my preferences and my type of work R2A and M7 are pretty much equally good for anything but low-light work and critical focusing wide open where I prefer M7. With 75mm I prefer the frame lines of Bessa though.
Oh, another tiny thing that can matter. Shutter speed dial is rotated on different direction on M7 and R2A. This may be meaningfull depending on what other bodies you're using.
"I will probably sell the M7 irrespective of...". And the Bessa is half the price of the ZI.
thomasw_
08-18-2007, 11:07
i understand what you are going through with this, keith. owning something we don't use can become a distraction, and most of us can do without that. simplifying can help you here. but i think you need to proceed cautiously, using the m7 as the means. don't buy anything until you sell the m7, see what your shooting is like without it. currently you indicate it serves very limited use. so you may find without your m7, and still having the m2s and 3s, your photographic tool situation is just fine. but again, after selling the m7, you that find something is amiss; you'll know it wasn't because of no m7, as even now that's the case. hence if somehting is missing after selling the m7, you'll be in better position then to evaluate what it is. in short, i think selling the m7, and giving yourself some time to explore what you might want in its place, if anything, would be the most prudent action. No you are not crazy to want to be free of a possession like the m7; the wisest in many parts of the world have said that personal liberation can come through NOT being possessed by what we possess. But i think it takes strength to get rid of distractions we own...I wish you the best in your decision.
btw, I am going with the ZI to give me the AE as a compliment to my purely mechanical M2 and M3; and to do it, I have had to sell off some wonderful but 'distracting' lenses. It still keeps my M system fairly basic: and a guy like me needs things basic:)
back alley
08-18-2007, 11:41
i sold my black zeiss ikon to fund my bessa r4m and a few more lenses.
it was well worth it me.
as i have said in the past, i love having 2 completely different kits and i love that the lenses fit both cameras. in my case, the zi is my electronic ae camera and the r4m is my all mechanical, non electronic camera.
peace at long last.
i sold my black zeiss ikon to fund my bessa r4m and a few more lenses.
it was well worth it me.
as i have said in the past, i love having 2 completely different kits and i love that the lenses fit both cameras. in my case, the zi is my electronic ae camera and the r4m is my all mechanical, non electronic camera.
peace at long last.
There might still be room for a .58 MP, the perfect camera for the
one lens set (ZM 25) :angel:
back alley
08-18-2007, 12:13
too much $$ for a camera for me anyway.
i do like using the 25 alone sometimes.
I use two M7s and an R4A and really like them all. I don't worry about getting the cameras nicked up and one of my M7 bodies took a right beating last month as I hauled it around in the tropics. My sense is that the RxA would be just as good a street cam as an M7 but a bit noisier. If you don't like the M7 for some reason get rid of it - no point in having an asset sitting around collecting dust.
BillBingham2
08-18-2007, 13:04
Keith,
No, you are not crazy, not by a long shot. I got my Leicas back when I was a DINK (Double Income No Kids). Now that I am going back to use them while I am fine replacing my T with my M6, it's hard to replace the L with a M4-P. If the L gets trashed, while it sucks, it's not the end of the world. As I shoot with a CV 25/4 for street & family grab shots, the L works fine.
I do not think that all your cameras must be of one type. I have a Nikon rangefinder kit and my Leica M kit. On the dark side, I have a Nikon F2 kit and an OM-1 kit.
You know you could fund a R3A and a R4A and have some money left over for some new glass with what you have in the M7. You know the feel of a Leica M, you have several. If you are not happy with it I'd bet you will not be in the future. There are new M7s for sale and you can always go back if you have too much seller remorse.
B2 (;->
How about a Hexar RF? Great camera, I use mine 90% now over leicas AND it will also give you AE!
Hexar RF - I'm loving mine!
mfunnell
08-18-2007, 15:07
How about a Hexar RF? Great camera, I use mine 90% now over leicas AND it will also give you AE!
Hexar RF - I'm loving mine!I could also endorse the Hexar RF, as it is my "default RF camera" and I'll also often take it along as my 2nd camera if I'm shooting with something else. But whether it would suit Keith better than his M7 is something I can't guess at.
...Mike
sepiareverb
08-18-2007, 16:22
Just to muddy the waters a little...
I shoot M7's and an M5 most of the time, and find that the M7's allow me to shoot in a more fluid manner. I approach every image the same way, thinking first about how much depth of field I want and then about how bright the scene is. With the M7 I simply dial in compensation and shoot, with the M5 I need to make the adjustment after finding what the meter says- meaning I need to look through the camera for information before I can make that adjustment. I find that in some situations this breaks my concentration or 'flow' enough to affect the picture making. I find I prefer the M7's in town and the M5 in the country. Don't know if this fits with your style of shooting Keith, but this really sank in with me over the last week since getting the M5 back.
Every M can be seen as a "status-driven luxury," especially when compared to my-camera-is-a-light-tight-box-that-only-holds-quality-glass concept/alternatives. as you've stated even your lowly Electro matches the purpose as much as your precious M2. you've already made your decision. you should get that expensive phony M7 into the hands of someone who can appreciate it and use it, and buy the R3. Why the M2 can't be used for "rough and tumble street photography" is mystery to me. That's what the thing was made for! :) ...or is it too good for that? ;)
Gulp! ... are you suggesting I take my pristine M2 out and aim it at the 'great unwashed?' :eek: :p
Perhaps I should just treat the M7 as my AE point and shoot and forget that it's a $4500.00 (in this country) camera. When some offended gorilla grabs it off me and jumps up and down on it I'll be blaming you! ;-0
thomasw_
08-18-2007, 16:52
....i do like using the 25 alone sometimes.
keith---sorry to stick this into this thread but i thought this might be worth a giggle for others as well:
well, joe, this comment was read by my wife over my shoulder, and she casually remarked to me: "so i gather this back alley guy likes to use and stroke his equipment, too."
all-at-once we chuckled. she didn't intend the innuendo, and i am sure you didn't either; but i thought you might find it funny how what we write sometimes comes back into everyday life in most random ways:)
sepiareverb
08-18-2007, 16:55
'gearspeak' at work.
I hadn't thought about the R4A ... interesting specs on that camera and for some reason the Voigtlander distributor here has them very cheap. I bought a lens off him recently and he was cheaper than SG by $100.00
We expect to get ripped off over here you know ... this won't do at all! :D
Perhaps I should just treat the M7 as my AE point and shoot and forget that it's a $4500.00 (in this country) camera.The first thing I did when I got my M7s was take the plastic covers off the baseplates. I bought them to use and if they get dinged up then it takes a few $$$ off the value but who cares? I've no intention of selling them. I read that Magus has dinged up his MP as well - it's inevitable if you use them. If you're worried about a scratch on the body I would definitely sell the camera.
BTW I use an R4A and it's a beaut. If you use a 28mm lens you will love the single 28mm frameline in the VF. :) I got mine for my 24mm/f2.8 and those two go together really well. The R4A is a very innovative and (apparently) under-appreciated camera.
sepiareverb
08-18-2007, 17:23
The first thing I did when I got my M7s was take the plastic covers off the baseplates. I bought them to use and if they get dinged up then it takes a few $$$ off the value but who cares?...
Here! Here! No matter what I do to these cameras I doubt they'll ever be as dinged up as me!
Gulp! ... are you suggesting I take my pristine M2 out and aim it at the 'great unwashed?' :eek: :p
Perhaps I should just treat the M7 as my AE point and shoot and forget that it's a $4500.00 (in this country) camera. When some offended gorilla grabs it off me and jumps up and down on it I'll be blaming you! ;-0
I thought you had an M8? Where do you shoot that, in your house only? :)
.
kshapero
08-19-2007, 15:18
I have owned the R3A(M) and now I have a ZI. Oh gosh it feels great to hold. I shoot more, I enjoy more. I'm blinded by my GAS.
AlexanderR
08-19-2007, 15:22
I think the R3A viewfinder might leave you wanting. It's my biggest complaint about mine. It is nowhere near as contrasty/sharp/flare free as my M6TTL's viewfinder was and my MP viewfinder is.
As for fear of having it stolen--I don't think most street thieves could tell the difference between a Leica and an R3A, and if you're really concerned, just insure your gear.
Additionally, I really do not like meter display in the R3A. I much prefer the simple dot/arrow configuration on the M6TTL/MP--I believe the M7s is the same?
I thought you had an M8? Where do you shoot that, in your house only? :)
.
It's been about six rolls of film since I picked the M8 up ... now that worries me! :p
I want to do some street photography at night in Brisbane in the rather less, shall we say, affluent areas ... it's part of a project and will span several weeks. I guess ... as was said ... who would know the difference between cameras anyway.
I really believe that my GSN would be an excellent camera for this as the lens is great and it meters very well in poor mixed light. It's easy enough to focus in ideal conditions but in the gloom the small rangefinder patch becomes indistinct and my eyes struggle in these conditions at the best of times! It sounds to me as if the Bessa doesn't excell in these conditions either so that does make the M7 the logical chioice for AE ... but I still have reservations.
Keith,
Make your own choice get an R3A from mainline and try it out as they have a 14 day no questions asked return policy. I find the R2 and R3 rangefinders much cleaner to look through than the M cameras. But it is a personal thing.
mike goldberg
08-19-2007, 20:46
The Bessa V/F is really bright, and the patch is easy to focus.
Mike
shadowfox
08-21-2007, 08:58
It's been about six rolls of film since I picked the M8 up ... now that worries me! :p
I want to do some street photography at night in Brisbane in the rather less, shall we say, affluent areas ... it's part of a project and will span several weeks. I guess ... as was said ... who would know the difference between cameras anyway.
I really believe that my GSN would be an excellent camera for this as the lens is great and it meters very well in poor mixed light. It's easy enough to focus in ideal conditions but in the gloom the small rangefinder patch becomes indistinct and my eyes struggle in these conditions at the best of times! It sounds to me as if the Bessa doesn't excell in these conditions either so that does make the M7 the logical chioice for AE ... but I still have reservations.
I know what you mean, the GSN (I have a GS) has a great meter, but the patch is dim.
IMHO, for this project, nothing will beat your M2 (no problem focusing in the almost-dark) and bring a meter just for reference and trust the numbers on your EV chart :)
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