Unusual 6cm f1.5 Sonnar in LTM [Archive]

jlw

08-13-2007, 19:29

Interesting item in a number of ways.

It does look like original construction, not a remount or conversion, but something about the barrel also looks (to my inexpert eye) like post-WWII East German Zeiss construction: the chromed (aluminum?) mounting thread, the somewhat coarse knurling, the setscrews sunk too deep in their holes. Being DDR-built doesn't preclude it from being rare, valuable, etc., but it does make it harder to know its background.

Another thing that struck me as peculiar is the orientation of the numbers on the DOF scale. Note that they face in the opposite direction to the numbers on the footage scale and f/stop scales. The footage and f/ scales are oriented to read correctly from the photographer's view, i.e., behind the lens; the DOF scale is oriented 180 degrees to that, so it reads correctly from the subject position, in front of the lens.

There looks to be plenty of space to run the numbers either way, so I wonder why they would have done that? It's as if the DOF scale were laid out to be read from a vertically-mounted camera, the way an enlarger lens's scales are set up. But an enlarger lens wouldn't need a DOF scale, and why would the other scales face the other way? The few other '50s Zeiss lenses I've owned have all the scales oriented to the photographer's viewpoint.

It would be very interesting to know more about the provenance of this lens.

dexdog

08-17-2007, 04:40

There is obviously something very interesting about this lens, as judged by the bidding. Price is up to $370 with 3.5 days left in the auction, 10 bids from 5 bidders.

Anyway, this lens has serial number1250302, which in the typical world of CZJ lenses indicates a production year of 1931. The Zeiss lens book by Theile would be the best source for correlating serial number to production date, but I don't own it, and can't read German anyway.

If I had to hazard a guess, I would say that it was remounted in LTM either during or after WW2. The barrel appears to be aluminum, and the design of the lens barrel itself does not look like a WW2-style Zeiss factory version. Also, the 6cm focal length is odd, and suggests to me that the lens was probably originally made for something other than the 35mm format.

The lens is not a prototype, because Zeiss usually emblazoned the German term for "test lens" on the bezel, and if a serial number was assigned, it was usually a string of zeros with consecutive numbers follwing, such as 0000000, 0000001, 0000002, etc. Zeiss did not use normal lens sequence serial numbers on prototypes.

With any luck, someone with the Theile book will chime in and enlighten us. One RFFer (whose name I cannot remenber, although I have it at home) was very helpful in describing the history of a Zeiss lens in LTM that I purchased from ferider last year, with proceeds going to Jorge to run the joint.

raid

08-17-2007, 04:47

This lens will sell for about $450-$550 with a high probaabiltiy. [sigh sigh sigh]

Mark,

It would be interesting,as you said, if someone knowledgeable on Zeiss collectibles helps out here. Most likely, we will not see such a lens again for many years, if at all.

dexdog

08-17-2007, 04:54

[QUOTE=raid]This lens will sell for about $450-$550 with a high probaabiltiy. [sigh sigh sigh]

Raid, I bet it sells for closer to $900. One of the bidders has already bid 5 times, and shows no sign of quitting. We will just have to wait and see what happens:) .

Raid, does the barrel on this lens look like your 50mm CZJ in LTM?

raid

08-17-2007, 05:48

Mark,

The barrel on the 60mm lens looks like a barrel for a FSU lens. My lens looks more like a collapsible lens. I agree with you that with such an agressive bidder, we could see a very high ending price. $1000 sounds a target here.

ferider

08-17-2007, 05:57

This seems to be an extraordinary lens. Barrel looks similar to the
58mm "Leica Sonnar", but focus turns in the other direction and
goes down to .9m (instead of 1). Serial nr. places it in the very
early 30s.

Roland.

raid

08-17-2007, 06:03

Roland,
So this will go over $1000?
I doubt it that its optical performance will be good wide open. It is too old. It is a collector's dream lens.

ferider

08-17-2007, 06:07

Yeah, it must be a lousy lens. And it doesn't even look like it's
in a shape good enough for a collector ...

(Good luck, Raid :D J/k )

Roland.

Harry Lime

08-17-2007, 06:26

Kevincameras.com has a few Zeiss prototypes. Not all are marked as such.
Not cheap.

HL

dexdog

08-17-2007, 06:36

Kevincameras.com has a few Zeiss prototypes. Not all are marked as such.
Not cheap.

HL

I will have to check out the Kcameras site, at least to chuckle at the prices. Also, I at least qualified by saying "usually". Thanks for the tip, HL

raid

08-17-2007, 10:04

I got lucky and I bought one Zeiss Jena 5cm/2 Sonnar lens that turned out to be genuine and rather rare. I will not risk it again, plus one old lens that is "rare" is enough for me. What I really would benefit from is a sharp lens with 1.4 max aperture.

ferider

08-17-2007, 14:49

This appears to be another lens made up to deceive.It has similar characteristics and looks to the series of 58mm F1.5 lenses which are similarly marked as Carl Zeiss Sonnars in the 1407xxx range (1932) and there is very grave doubt that these lenses were ever produced by the Carl Zeiss Jena at this date.They have all the characteristics and poor build quality of the aluminium Soviet reparation lenses (50mm F1.5 Sonnars).

What do you think about the focus direction (and min. focus distance),
different from all other Russian fakes out there ?

Also I don't think this lens is aluminum made, this should be easy to check
with the seller. As Marc also documented, many custom Zeiss
LTM adaptations were made. For use, not to deceive.

Here is a nice summary of Marc himself:

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:cAIpK_t62OcJ:leica-users.org/v18/msg09815.html+zeiss+6cm+1.5+sonnar&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&gl=us

ferider

08-17-2007, 15:50

Thanks, William. I have Marc's book, but unfortunately not Thiele's.

Roland.

raid

08-17-2007, 15:55

Hello Raid,

Don't be taken in by this lens.The serial number puts the production date as 1931.(Zeiss Serial No.s 1239699 ---- 1365582 date of production 1931). This appears to be another lens made up to deceive.It has similar characteristics and looks to the series of 58mm F1.5 lenses which are similarly marked as Carl Zeiss Sonnars in the 1407xxx range (1932) and there is very grave doubt that these lenses were ever produced by the Carl Zeiss Jena at this date.They have all the characteristics and poor build quality of the aluminium Soviet reparation lenses (50mm F1.5 Sonnars).
Raid ---IMHO it is rather a collector's NIGHTMARE of a lens.
The only genuine 60mm F1.5 Sonnars were of immediate Post-war construction,and only 50 were manufactured,25 each in LTM and Contax bayonet.These 50 lenses would have serial numbers in the Post-war serial number range of 3xxx,xxx.These lenses are well known in the collector field and rarely come for sale.A typical example of this genuine Post-war production can be seen in Marc James Small's
publication "Non-Leitz Leica Thread Mount Lenses" at the bottom of plate 3 on page 133. I will try to insert a photo of this lens for the benefit of all who have interest in this thread.
William

Hello William,

Thank you for the very informative posting above. I also suspect a J-3 clone, and that's what I hinted at. If there are only 25 genuine LTM versions of this lens, then this example on ebay is most likely not one of them. My Zeiss lens was "approved of" by Marc Small and Charles Barringer. Before their input, I was in doubt whether the 5cm/2 lens was a genuine Zeiss product or not. Now I enjoy having a small historical item, if I can even call it that way.

I have two genuine Petra (Jordan) oil lamps; now these really are historical items. When the warriors left Petra on a war misson, their wives would pour water in them,and then claim that they were tears!

raid

08-17-2007, 15:58

HERE IS A PHOTO OF A GENUINE LENS-POST-WAR 60mm F1.5 Sonnar (1 of 25 made in LTM).

This lens looks better made than the one on sale.
Is the comma between the 1 and the 5 more pronounced in the genuine version?

ferider

08-17-2007, 16:34

William,

have a look at http://www.leica-historica.de/VIDOM_92.pdf

"ZEISS-Objektive mit LEICA-Wechselgewinde / Eine Ergänzung zum Beitrag von Rolf Fricke, Rochester, NY, in vidom Nr. 79 / von Lothar Thewes, Düsseldorf"

He describes a lens of his and refers to a similar 6cm lens of Fricke.

Among others he says:

"Der rückseitige sechsfach gekerbte Spannring dient der
Fixierung des Blendenkörpers sowie als Anlagefläche
der hinteren Linsengruppe. Diese ist allerdings von vorn
eingeschraubt, im Baufortschritt also vor dem Einbau
der Blende eingefügt."

Referring to the spanner ring on the rear of the lens that
has 6 indentations.

"Die Abtastrolle des LEICA-Entfernungsmessers läuft
bei dem in Rede stehenden Sonnar im Prinzip so, wie
dies bei den CL-Objektiven geschieht, nur nicht so
stark ausgeprägt (s. Fotos), in Richtung ∞ also auf einer
Schräge mit leichtem Gefälle, das am Ende in einen
kurzen und deshalb steilen Anstieg übergeht. Dieser
dient selbstverständlich nicht mehr der Steuerung des
Entfernungsmessers. Eine Tiefenschärfenskala fehlt bei
dem mit 5 cm Brennweite angegebenen Objektiv ebenso
wie bei der „f = 6 cm.“-Version."

Referring to the focus cam that looks similar than on CL lenses.
He shows a picture of the rear of his lens in the above report
that looks identical to ours.

He concludes that his lens (looking identical the one mentioned
above on ebay, except for the ring around the front element)
is identical to Fricke's authentic 6cm lens.

This is the ebay lens:

http://www.brooklyncam.com/ebay/P8130042.JPG

I have never seen a focus cam like this on any Russian replica.
Note also the 6 indentations of the spanner ring. All Russian
spanner rings I've seen have two.

These are two pictures from Thewes' lens that I cropped out
of his PDF report. Hopefully he'll forgive me. Check out the lower
half of the second picture and compare, please.

Roland.

dexdog

08-17-2007, 16:49

That's what I like to see, a healthy discussion of the bona fides of this lens! Thanks to all concerned.

erikhaugsby

08-17-2007, 16:53

Shame that people actually think it's real. 10 bids to $370 right now.

Take a look at the DOF scales--on the auction lens there is a defined slant to the indicator lines near the mount side, while on the real lens the indicators are straight throughout. No doubt in my mind that the auction lens is fake.

Gabriel M.A.

08-17-2007, 17:02

I will have to check out the Kcameras site, at least to chuckle at the prices.
I know. They are priced not to sell.

ferider

08-17-2007, 17:11

I will have to check out the Kcameras site, at least to chuckle at the prices. Also, I at least qualified by saying "usually". Thanks for the tip, HL

Just browsed his "Connaisseur's Corner", Mark. Check out zeiss_50_r_sonnar_2800427 ...

;)

Roland.

ferider

08-17-2007, 17:45

Hello Roland
I couldn't get your thumbnails to open to compare but will try again tomorrow
as it is now 2.35 am in England and I will have to be going to bed.Look forward to further discussions on this interesting thread tomorrow.
Good night to you all,
Kindest Regards,
William

Good night William. If you just download the PDF file you can
see the pictures.

Best,

Roland.

dexdog

08-17-2007, 20:00

Just browsed his "Connaisseur's Corner", Mark. Check out zeiss_50_r_sonnar_2800427 ...;)Roland.

Thanks Roland, that was informative. I doubt that the pictures Kcameras' lens produces are three times better than the ones my lens produces.

raid

08-18-2007, 15:01

William,
You make a good point, but it could also be that someone later on (after 1933) converted a Zeiss lens into LTM. Isn't this a possibility that this is a custom job?

erikhaugsby

08-18-2007, 15:26

William,
You make a good point, but it could also be that someone later on (after 1933) converted a Zeiss lens into LTM. Isn't this a possibility that this is a custom job?
That might explain the inconsistencies in the reverse orientation of the DOF lettering, as well as for the lower quality of the barrel, but who would go to such lengths to make such a lens?

ZeissFan

08-18-2007, 16:40

I would tend to agree that this is a forgery. I'm not positive, but I would tend to believe that.

I think William's arguments against it being genuine are very sound.

This lens is the topic of a discussion on the Zeiss Ikon Collectors Group on Yahoo. A Carl Zeiss and Zeiss Ikon authority believes this to be a well-made fake.

The serial number of the lens actually belongs to a group of 10.5cm Tessar lenses made for the Super Ikonta C. This means that whoever engraved the lens probably just picked a number out of the air, thinking that it probably belonged to a 5cm Sonnar and didn't know that records exist that would indicate that a) it wasn't for a 5cm lens and b) the serial number wasn't even for a Sonnar.

Short version: FAKE, albeit a better made one than what you often see.

raid

08-18-2007, 16:46

I also support what William has concluded. I wrote the seller a short note,asking whether they were 100% sure about the lens being genuine Zeiss made, considering the serial number.

ferider

08-18-2007, 17:31

Thanks, William.

Still I wish somebody would comment on the very similar lenses
described in the German article that I quoted (serial numbers
in similar range), in Germany obviously considered genuine.

Here the link again, in case you missed it above:

http://www.leica-historica.de/VIDOM_92.pdf

Roland.

ZeissFan

08-18-2007, 17:49

Someone should point Brooklyn Camera to this discussion as well as Marc James Small's comments on ZICG (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZICG/message/9466).

ferider

08-18-2007, 17:52

Someone should point Brooklyn Camera to this discussion as well as Marc James Small's comments on ZICG (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZICG/message/9466).

I did just post a respective reference to the discussion here on ZICG.

ZeissFan

08-18-2007, 17:58

I sent Brooklyn Camera a note to see both discussions.

raid

08-18-2007, 18:05

Mike,

They have not emailed me back on ebay.

ferider

08-18-2007, 18:06

Mike,

They have not emailed me back on ebay.

What are your thoughts on the article, Raid ?

You are fluid in German, you said.

Roland.

raid

08-18-2007, 18:25

Roland,
I took a look; what are you looking for?
I don't know how knowlegeable the author is.

ferider

08-18-2007, 18:30

Roland,
I took a look; what are you looking for?
I don't know how knowlegeable the author is.

From the publication and references, I assume he (a)
owns a very similar lens and (b) knows more about
the subject than me for sure, Raid :)

dexdog

08-18-2007, 18:31

What are your thoughts on the article, Raid ?

You are fluid in German, you said.

Roland.

Roland, I have been fluid with German beer once or twice.

I was just looking at the lens pictures on eBay, and the lettering on the front bezel is not consistent in size- the Sonnar 6cm part is a lot bigger type than the CZJ part. Also, the spacing of the words Carl Zeiss Jena is unlike any of the 20 or so CZJ lenses that I own- the words are too far apart.

Lastly, how is "Jena" pronounced? Is it pronounced "Yay-na"? I don't know any German, and have no idea how to pronounce this word.

thomasw_

08-18-2007, 18:32

the j is like a y in english.

ferider

08-18-2007, 18:36

Fluid in German beer is good :)

Yaeh Nah or similar ...

Roland.

raid

08-18-2007, 18:37

Below, the author is concluding that the lens is similar to the 58mm Biotar and is not a 60mm lens. He also concludes that the lens is obviously larger in diameter than Contax lens 50/1.5.

"Der Durchmesser der Frontlinse des hier besprochenen
Objektivs ist auffällig größer als der eines 5-cm-
CONTAX-Objektivs der Lichtstärke 1,5 (immerhin
1⁄2 cm). Schon deshalb kann die Richtigkeit der angegebenen
Brennweite bezweifelt werden. I

ch habe die Feststellung zum Anlaß genommen, Bildausschnittsvergleiche
durchzuführen. Als Vergleichsoptiken dienten
diverse 50-mm-Objektive unterschiedlicher Hersteller
(LEICA, CANON, STEINHEIL, UdSSR) sowie ein auf
LEICA adaptiertes M-42-Biotar 2 / 58 von CARL ZEISS
JENA. Ergebnis: Es gab völlige Gesichtsfeldübereinstimmung
zwischen dem Prüfling und dem Vergleichsstück
namens Biotar, wohingegen alle übrigen für den Test
eingesetzten Objektive deutlich mehr abbildeten.

Resümee:
Es kann wohl davon ausgegangen werden, daß die für
die LEICA gefertigten 1,5er Sonnare ohne Herstellerangabe
auf einer einheitlichen Rechnung beruhen, die
auf eine Brennweite von 5,8 cm hinausgelaufen ist, ganz
gleich, ob diese auf dem einzelnen Objektiv auch so, mit
5 oder mit 6 cm angegeben ist."

ferider

08-18-2007, 18:38

raid

08-18-2007, 18:40

raid

08-18-2007, 18:41

You misread this. He was testing several lenses to compare
FOV and concluded that the 6cm Sonnar, much like the 5cm Sonnar
had the same FOV than the 58mm M42 Biotar, namely 58mm.

Roland: This is what I meant by "similar lens". He said that it is not a true 60mm lens.

ferider

08-18-2007, 18:46

Roland,

I repeat what I said before; the"comma" in the 1,5 on the ebay lens is not as pronounced as the one in the original lens. This supports what Mark said above about inconsistencies when compared to lettering on other Zeiss Jena lenses.

Yes, I heard you. You forget that the 6cm lens depicted by William
might be 15 years or more younger, made AFTER the war. While
the other one is pre-war or war-time. Which is like comparing the
scripture and built of a Leitz Summicron from the later 70s to one of the
early 60s ...

I'll stop now on the subject. I'll buy a copy of Thiele when I'm in Germany
next time and will wait if Marc has any more comments.

Best,

Roland.

raid

08-18-2007, 18:58

Roland:

Where would you buy the book by Thiele? Is it not available online?
I will take another good look at the baey lens.

Marc James Small

08-18-2007, 21:15

Yes, I once thought that the 1.5/6cm Sonnars were genuine CZJ products. I no longer believe this to be the case. These lenses are closely tied to the 1.5/5.8cm "Leica-Sonnars" which we now know are bogus. They are interesting lenses and have a collector base of their own, but they are not CZJ products for the all of it. A German scholar named Thiele has been going over the CZJ factory records and publishing these and, to make a long story short, there is no factory record of either a 1.5/5.8cm or 1.5/6cm Sonnar. That is not dispositive, of course, as the CZJ records were comproised by decades of Socialist Excellence in Record Keeping, but this is a pointer. We have had these 5.8cm lenses analyzed by repair experts accustomed to the overhaul of some really off-the-wall CZJ gear. We have had them X-rayed. There is no question that the 5.8cm lenses are not factory products though we still have not cnfirmed one way or the other whether the lens elements were of Jena manufacture.

So, yes, this 6cm lens is almost certainly not a CZJ product. What is it worth? Shucks, guys, McKeown's law applies, and we shall see. I own three of the 5.8cm lenses, and the higher the bidding goes, the higher my portfolio runs.

There are deals out there. I have gotten a lot of kind thank-yous for advice given over the years, including some premium Formosa Oolong tea and bunches of camea literature. The kindest gift of all remains the 1.5/7.5cm CZJ Biotar T in LTM sold to me for $250 by a VERY kind soul in repyment for services rendered. A decade later, we still only know of six such lenses and heavens only knows what Stan Tamarkin could do with that at one of his auctions!

This lens is not such a deal, but it has a cachet for certain collectors and will go to one of these. And well it should.

Marc

Marc James Small

08-18-2007, 21:17

Hartmut Thiele's works are available from the logical choices, Petra Kellers in the US, Peter Loy in the UK, and Lindemann's in Germany. For those in the US, check out:

<http://www.camerabooks.com/>

Marc

ferider

08-18-2007, 22:55

Marc,

thank you very much for posting here, and warmest welcome to RFF !

Best,

Roland.

aaa

08-19-2007, 05:44

Interesting, this looks very similar to my RF-coupled 1.5/5,8 cm Sonnar in Leica screw mount.

strange Zeiss Sonnar with a 6cm FL.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Zeiss-Sonnar-6cm-F1-5-Lens-in-Leica-Screw-Mount_W0QQitemZ270155040609QQihZ017QQcategoryZ3006 3QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

raid

08-19-2007, 06:08

Hello Marc,
I am one of the many people you have assisted in figuring our whether a lens was genuine Zeiss or a bogus lens. Thanks again. In my case, it was Zeiss Jena 5cm/2 LTM that you linked to a deal of 200 lenses sent to Sweden in return for metal ore!

I wish I had a 7.5cm/1.5 to send you ... :o

Welcome to this forum. I hope that you will make it a place to which you return to chat about your speciality. Thanks again.

LeicaTom

09-20-2007, 13:25

Question is......what do these things do?

What do the f1.5 58mm fake "Leica Sonnars" photos look like when they shoot?

Are they are least usable lenses or good performers?

Anyone have any portrait samples?

Curious

Tom

raid

09-20-2007, 13:53

dexdog

09-20-2007, 13:59

Raid, I have to wonder if the debunking that this lens received on RFF hurt the sale price. Many folks, and even a guru or two, deemed the lens to be a forgery.

raid

09-20-2007, 15:36

Mark,
In this case, the buyer got lucky and the seller lost a little.
On the other hand,and if the lens is a forgery, the buyer saved some money and the seller made a little more than needed.

It was a win-win situation.

Knowledge never hurts. We only had opinions,but this was better than nothing at all.

LeicaTom

09-23-2007, 01:51

There`s one of those fake 58mm "Leica Sonnar`s" on the evilbay

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=280154717437&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=018

It looks old...but it`s been now proven that these were never made by the factory, but by the Russians (note use of the incorrect early 1930`s serial number etc.) it`s not worth $50 all the fake FSU stuff out there, makes it frustrating to find the real thing......:(

I wish that Zeiss would just put out a MODERN version of the f1.5 50mm in LTM
*anyone know if any have been done in the past 10 years?*

I`m sure if they made them, they could sell 500 of them REAL FAST, even at $800+
I`d be interested and it would become a permanent optical fixture attached to my newest Leica IIIC - collectable or not , all I want is the "Sonnar" glow :D

Tom

jlw

09-23-2007, 20:15

Re Marc's remarks (remarcs?) on the LTM version of the C.Z. Jena 7.5cm f/1.5 Biotar:

Having been lucky enough to own one of those six examples for a while (in rough mechanical condition, but with good glass) and having taken quite a few pictures with it (I had not idea back then that it was so rare, so had no worries about carrying it around and using it) I can testify that this is a rather special lens in terms of imaging qualities.

It's certainly not conventionally "crisp" in the way that, say, a 105/2.5 Nikkor is, but it produces images with a distinctive look that can be very beautiful for some subjects.

What I wonder: Now that Zeiss has re-introduced the 50mm f/1.5 Sonnar specifically for photographers (e.g. LeicaTom above) seeking its distinctive signature... if some prominent photographers with good factory connections were to suggest it, might they consider a re-issue of the 75/1.5 in a modern mount? It seems a bit unfair that so few photographers got a chance to use this lens.

(Of course the 75/1.5 seems to be less uncommon in M42 and Exakta SLR mounts, so users of those platforms have a more accessible way of experiencing it. But after all, this is Rangefinder Forum...)

Picture from my gallery made with the 7.5cm/1.5 Biotar:

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/data/500/86-11-05_10a.jpg

LeicaTom

09-23-2007, 20:31

Picture from my gallery made with the 7.5cm/1.5 Biotar:

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/data/500/86-11-05_10a.jpg

Beautiful shot!

There`s another lens I didn`t know about in LTM f1.5 75mm Biotar?

I have built so much modern work using a Sony Digital Zeiss Sonnar lens that I want to keep the signature in real film, while it`s a real part of my Photography style

I`ve bought the Canon f1.5 50mm and the Nikkor f1.4 50mm and f2.0 85mm also has similar "sonnar" style signatures

I wish I could find something REAL Zeiss glass in LTM for a good user, I`m not really concerned about it being so collectable, I just want the look :)

I wonder who`s the Zeiss guru out there that I could ask about LTM mounts?
I know that there`s the prewar f1.5 and f2.0 50mm`s but what other lenses were made by Zeiss in LTM? Was the f2.0 85mm also made in LTM?

And did the postwar Stuttgart company make any Zeiss Opton f1.5 50mm`s in LTM?

I know my Leica stuff, while I was a hardcore collector back in the 80`s and 90`s, but I collected Leitz only.......I sold it all years ago and now with my PinUp Photography and another small collection of LTM bodies, I`m more concerned with the look all my lenses give while I`m really shooting with my cameras this time, it`s way much more fun then collecting that`s for sure! :D

Tom

PS: That f1.5 58mm Leica Sonnar in my earlier post on Evilbay was a fake and it still brought over $260

I wonder how the performance of that lens is?

LeicaTom

09-25-2007, 18:40

I know that there`s the prewar f1.5 and f2.0 50mm`s but what other lenses were made by Zeiss in LTM? Was the f2.0 85mm also made in LTM?

And did the postwar Stuttgart company make any Zeiss Opton f1.5 50mm`s in LTM?

TOM (Leica Tom)

Pre-war and Wartime(Carl Zeiss Jena) LTM.
5cm F1.4 Biotar.
2.8cm F8 Tessar.
3.5cm F2.8 Biogon.
3.5cm F3.5 Herar.
5cm F1.5 Sonnar.
5cm F2 Sonnar Rigid.
5cm F2 Sonnar Collapsible.
8.5cm F2 Sonnar.
13.5cm F4 Sonnar.
13.5cm F4.5 Triotar.

Post War Carl Zeiss Jena (East Germany) LTM. serial no's 3,xxx,xxx.
In very limited production:-
3.5cm F2.8 Biometar.
5cm F1.5 Sonnar.
5cm F2 Sonnar.
7.5cm F1.5 Biotar.
and there may be others but in very small numbers.

Post War Carl Zeiss (Oberkochen - Opton) West Germany did not produce any LTM mount lenses but did produce for Leitz a Leica M-mount version of the Carl Zeiss 15mm F8 Hologon lens in limited numbers (I believe to special order through Leitz).

Thanks for all that info :)

Tom

LeicaTom

10-07-2007, 08:14

There`s one that`s more than likely another Russian fake on evilbay.......

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=250171023232&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=015

- I`ve given up on finding a REAL Zeiss one, I have (two) Canon f1.5 50mm`s now, so I have the "Sonnar Glow" thanks to Canon :)

Tom

Ernst Dinkla

10-14-2007, 03:12

Hello Raid,

The only genuine 60mm F1.5 Sonnars were of immediate Post-war construction,and only 50 were manufactured,25 each in LTM and Contax bayonet.These 50 lenses would have serial numbers in the Post-war serial number range of 3xxx,xxx.These lenses are well known in the collector field and rarely come for sale.A typical example of this genuine Post-war production can be seen in Marc James Small's publication "Non-Leitz Leica Thread Mount Lenses" at the bottom of plate 3 on page 133. I will try to insert a photo of this lens for the benefit of all who have interest in this thread.
William
I'm new here and not a Leica user, collecter etc. The reason I got here was that it was the only source to check some data on this lens. I have seen the picture of the genuine one you linked to on this list. Based on pictures I have seen of another genuine one (everything points to that) I have to question the assumption that the serial number starts with a 3. Whether that indicates that the lenses are made in another period than after WWII or that Carl Zeiss Jena wasn't so Gründlich in numbering is beyond my knowledge. Every other aspect of the lens I have seen in the photographs of that lens is correct and its serial number is at the higher end of the 25 produced, the picture as linked in this list must be at the lower end if only 25 with LTM were produced. The linked picture of the genuine one only shows the last 3 digits. The lens I'm writing about is not mine but owned by a friend who got it from an uncle who passed away several years ago. The uncle, a pro photographer and collecter/user of fast lenses like the Ernostar and of some lesser known English post WWII fast lenses. I'm vague about the serial number as I get the impression from this list that it isn't wise to give too much details. Something I can understand in relation to the copies that exist or may appear.

Kind regards, Ernst Dinkla