Take up spools for 111F+111C

[John Elder]

I curently have a recently aquired 111F(just cla'd) and a good user 111C. The take up spool that came with the 111f was "spring" loaded, whereas the spool in the 111C was solid. I trim the leaders and don;t have trouble loading the 111C. However, the spring loaded spool wouldn't work on the 111F after 2 hours of attempts. It also didn't work on the 111C. I then used the solid spool from the 111C in the 111F and the 111F worked no problem. Did the 111F+ 111C have identicle spools, or was the 111F spool spring loaded? When the spring loaded spool is pushed down , it is exactly the same length as the solid spool. Any information would be greatly appreciated. One other question, on the 111F base plate do you pay attention to the metal mount sticking out of the plate which is supposed to help hold film in place? Thanks all. By the way, I;m selling the 111C which was cla'd by Youxin Ye in the last year, has new curtains, accurate shutterspeeds, and is a post war model. Great user!

[xayraa33]

is the spring loaded spool a Leitz original?
I never seen one made by Leitz and I suspect they never made spring loaded ones.
I have seen aftermarket ones not made by Leitz and they were poorly made, the great exception to this is the fine spools made by Canon.

[John Elder]

It looks like a leitz original. It might be a M3 spool? However my M3 has half a roll of film in it so I can't compare. Anyway, were the spool originally supplied by leica with the 111C + !!!F identicle and not spring loaded? thanks.

[xayraa33]

yes they were the same spool and not spring loaded.

[Nikon Bob]

I don't follow what you mean by spring loaded. I just had a look at the spools in my IIIc, IIIf and IIf which appear to be the same physically, all solid, with the exception of the flat spring finger that holds the leader are of slightly different design IIIc spool compared to the IIIf/IIf spools. Not that it would make any difference in use. The base plate on the IIIf with the metal mount sticking out only goes on one way with the mount going in the film slot at the back of the camera. The base plate will not close any other way.

Bob

[xayraa33]

spring loaded means to me the spring loaded spool end for easy removal , ala the Canon spool.

[Nikon Bob]

spring loaded means to me the spring loaded spool end for easy removal , ala the Canon spool.

That would explain why I have never seen one then, never owned a Canon camera.

Bob

[John Elder]

By spring loaded i mean you push down on the top of the spool and it depresses into the spool. Ths spring has nothing to do with attaching the film to the spool. Thanks guys.

[LeicaTom]

Regular IIIC and IIIF spools are almost identical, the 1945/46 spool has an arrow pointing in the direction the film is inserted into the spool, later IIIC and IIIF spools don`t have this and have a perforated arrow form in the metal lip when the film is inserted - both spools are the same size no difference

...and about the spring loaded spools I asked that question a few weeks ago about the spool use in a pre 400000 serial Leica IIIC

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44015

I just bought a spring loaded IIIF/M3 *M stamp spool - letter M is stamped on the top of the spool* and I`m using it NOW in my 1946 Half Race Leica IIIC.........when you load it you have to push the black part of the spool top into the camera body (not the spring loaded top, with your index finger) and then the spool will sit at the same height as the normal hard spool does, take your time doing this and don`t force it down, it will get some getting used to, but the film travels better with these spools *my opinion*

.....and all the IIIF`s I`ve ever owned have had spring loaded LEITZ spools
(all of these were late model IIIF ST`s 1955/56)

Happy Shooting!

Tom

PS; I know people who also use the Canon "pop up" spool in Leica screw mount bodies as well and these are even taller when the spring is released maybe a 1/4 inch longer than the normal Leitz spool

[Nikon Bob]

Tom

Thank you for the explanation on spring loaded spools for the Leicas, you learn something every day. My IIIf has no ST so that might explain why it has no spring loaded spool being an earlier model than the IIIf ST. You mention that in your opinion that the film travels better with these spring loaded spools in the IIIc. By that did you mean that it solves the problem of the frames running into the sprocket holes which the IIIc are notorious for?

Bob

[LeicaTom]

Tom

Thank you for the explanation on spring loaded spools for the Leicas, you learn something every day. My IIIf has no ST so that might explain why it has no spring loaded spool being an earlier model than the IIIf ST. You mention that in your opinion that the film travels better with these spring loaded spools in the IIIc. By that did you mean that it solves the problem of the frames running into the sprocket holes which the IIIc are notorious for?

Bob

Well, someone told me recently that when you have a IIIC/IIIF that kinda chews film that`s because it needs a CLA....(film chips in the camera, little ickies etc.)

In all my years of shooting LTM I`ve never had a camera CLA`d
*KNOCKS ON WOOD* but my main shooter a 1946 Half Race IIIC has acted up in the past 4 rolls, I just loaded it with the "new" spool and have yet to run through that roll, but I`ll have that all shot out by late Tues night

It might all be in my head, with the spools running smoother, but I never had any problems with them in the IIIF`s back in the ole days, I`ll have to report what the IIIC does in the next 2 days - if it still chews film around number 16-18 then she`s off for a CLA

Tom

[payasam]

Bob, in a IIIc the frames run into the sprocket holes because the now standard cassette is 2.2 mm shorter than the correct Leitz cassette. Nothing to do with the take-up spool. A forum member spoke of putting a small conical spring between cassette and base plate, and that worked for me. [edit] Here's the rather long thread:

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23427

[FrankS]

Well, someone told me recently that when you have a IIIC/IIIF that kinda chews film that`s because it needs a CLA....(film chips in the camera, little ickies etc.)

In all my years of shooting LTM I`ve never had a camera CLA`d
*KNOCKS ON WOOD* but my main shooter a 1946 Half Race IIIC has acted up in the past 4 rolls, I just loaded it with the "new" spool and have yet to run through that roll, but I`ll have that all shot out by late Tues night

It might all be in my head, with the spools running smoother, but I never had any problems with them in the IIIF`s back in the ole days, I`ll have to report what the IIIC does in the next 2 days - if it still chews film around number 16-18 then she`s off for a CLA

Tom


It sounds like your cla-free time is up, Tom! :)

[John Elder]

Here is my research on the history of Leica spools obtained from the Leica Accessory Guide, 2nd Edition at page 95. Three different spools were made for Leica Screwmount cameras. First, the "Spulm" made from 1931 to 1953, a rigid, non spring loaded spool made for all screwmount up to and including the 111F. In 1954, leica made the "Svoop"/14021, an improved spring loaded spool for cameras 111F and PRIOR. Last in 1955, Leica made the "Spoom"/14022 made specially for th 1G, 111G, M1, M2, M3, and MD. I have come to the conclusion that I have a "Spoom" made for thre 111G and M3.

[John Elder]

If you want to see 2 out of he three types of spools, go to Dag's website. Under The Leica M section you will see an M spool, a "spoom" although clearly marked with an M. Go to the Leica Screwmount section and you will see a rigid "spulm" not marked. The spring loaded svoop for the 111F is not displayed.

[LeicaTom]

If you want to see 2 out of he three types of spools, go to Dag's website. Under The Leica M section you will see an M spool, a "spoom" although clearly marked with an M. Go to the Leica Screwmount section and you will see a rigid "spulm" not marked. The spring loaded svoop for the 111F is not displayed.

I really don`t think there`s much difference between the IIIF and IIIG/M3 spool, mine for sure is a M3 spool, but it seems to be working fine in the Half Race IIIC
....more news about that on Tues or Weds next week

Tom

[LeicaTom]

It sounds like your cla-free time is up, Tom! :)

Yeah.....the times up I think, I`m going to set up a CLA for the Half Race as soon as I can find a post 1946 "user" body IIIC (I had a very clean 1946 402xxx series) but I sold it two weeks ago....I`m sure I`ll find something else soon to use while the IIIC`s away, either that or I`ll just use my Canon F-1

Tom

[John Elder]

Excuse my ignorance, but what is a half race 111C? Tom, I am not familiar with emailing people on rangefinder forum. In fact I never have. If you are looking for a 111C and can figure out how to contact me through this forum, contact me. John Elder

[Nikon Bob]

[QUOTE=payasam]Bob, in a IIIc the frames run into the sprocket holes because the now standard cassette is 2.2 mm shorter than the correct Leitz cassette. Nothing to do with the take-up spool. A forum member spoke of putting a small conical spring between cassette and base plate, and that worked for me. [edit] Here's the rather long thread:

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23427[/QU
OTE]

Sorry, I was a little confused (what's new) and had hoped that there was a more elegant solution to the IIIc idiosyncrasy. I do recall the thread.

Bob

[John Elder]

I just communicated with Don Goldberg (Dag) and he told me that the only spool that DOES NOT work with the 111C or 111F is the spool made for th M camera and the 111G camera. He did confirm that there was a spool made for the 111F and 111C that you have to push down into the camera and turn clockwise to have it set right. This spool was an improvement in that it did not touch the interior of the camera while rewinding.
Bob: the sprocket holes intruding into the image area of in 111C cameras was "cured" by the 111F which has a metal platform about 2mm high attached to the baseplate of the 111F and keeps the film from moving. That problem with the 111C has nothing to do with the spool. In fact that is the exact reason I bought the 111F where you no longer get sprocket hole in the image area.

[LeicaTom]

I just communicated with Don Goldberg (Dag) and he told me that the only spool that DOES NOT work with the 111C or 111F is the spool made for th M camera and the 111G camera. He did confirm that there was a spool made for the 111F and 111C that you have to push down into the camera and turn clockwise to have it set right. This spool was an improvement in that it did not touch the interior of the camera while rewinding.
Bob: the sprocket holes intruding into the image area of in 111C cameras was "cured" by the 111F which has a metal platform about 2mm high attached to the baseplate of the 111F and keeps the film from moving. That problem with the 111C has nothing to do with the spool. In fact that is the exact reason I bought the 111F where you no longer get sprocket hole in the image area.

hummmmm......well there`s a M spool in my IIIC RIGHT NOW and that`s how I seated it push down and turn clockwise.....I`ve never had sprocket holes in my images - tune in later next week for the outcome :)

Tom

[LeicaTom]

Excuse my ignorance, but what is a half race 111C? Tom, I am not familiar with emailing people on rangefinder forum. In fact I never have. If you are looking for a 111C and can figure out how to contact me through this forum, contact me. John Elder

"Half Race" Leica`s are post 392000 series bodies to 397600
*roughly 5,000 cameras* with half race bearings in the shutter assembly
these were built right after the IIIC K, which had full ball bearings in the shutter assembly

Unlike the IIIC K the Half Race didn`t have a special stamp or letter next to the serial number, they were built in a handful for the German Forces up to May 1945 and then the rest were issued to the
US Army, both service and PX sales cameras - very few if any were Exported outside of Germany in 1945/46

Tom

[Nikon Bob]

hummmmm......well there`s a M spool in my IIIC RIGHT NOW and that`s how I seated it push down and turn clockwise.....I`ve never had sprocket holes in my images - tune in later next week for the outcome :)

Tom

Now that is interesting.

Bob

[John Elder]

I just got out my 111C with the questionable spring loaded spool in it. I tried pushing down and turning clockwise and I do believe that the problem is solved. Thanks everybody especially tom for all the info. Where in the hell did Leica come up with thise weird names?

[Nikon Bob]

John

Yeah, I have no problems with my IIIf or IIf because that foot is there. If you check out thread #12 by payasam and follow the link there seems to be a cure for the IIIc also.

Bob

[LeicaTom]

I just got out my 111C with the questionable spring loaded spool in it. I tried pushing down and turning clockwise and I do believe that the problem is solved. Thanks everybody especially tom for all the info. Where in the hell did Leica come up with thise weird names?

John,

I think they invented those crazy names to confuse us all :confused:
LOOPY, SPOOKY, NOOKY, KOOKY hahahahahaha! (Just Kidding) :)

Tom