What's Next For Leica? [Archive] - Rangefinderforum.com

Brian Sweeney

07-21-2007, 05:08

The original Kodak DCS also had a body that was slightly larger than that of an M Leica.

Philipp

It was not too much larger than an F3 with an MF-14 data back. I handled one at a trade show ~1991. I waited for the DCS200 to come out before buying one. It was much bigger than a Leica, and cost over $12,000.

I read a statement by Leica that the horizontal travel shutter was incompatible with the CCD. The M8 uses a sensor that should work well with a horizontal travel shutter. It captures the entire frame at once, unlike some others that work more like focal plane shutters. The cloth material of the traditional Leica would be an issue, but the F3's Titanium Foil curtains would work well in a Leica.

ywenz

07-21-2007, 05:10

I would like a Leica version of something like the GRD.. but with even better handling.. I think this could sell very well.

Eric T

07-21-2007, 06:00

Marc-A.

07-21-2007, 06:10

Leica should build autofocus lenses. With the introduction of the M8, Leica has moved away from the "all manual" format. With aperture priority on the M7 and M8, the next thing to introduce is autofocus lenses. These lenses should have a swtich to turn off AF when not wanted.

That's a good idea Eric! I would love a Leica AF like the the Hexar AF (but a more simple camera to use than the Hexar AF): 35mm lens, a Summilux for instance; aperture priority; silent mode, small ... . Yes that would be great :)

Ajax

07-21-2007, 06:25

FYI, one of Mr Lee's aims, who is variously quoted, depending on media sources, as either marketing director or new CEO, is to bring to market the kind of Leica product which might appeal to 'American soccer mums..'

You might deduce from this tid-bit (quoted in a US business paper some months ago.) that Mr Lee sees plenty of opportunity to take advantage for Leica consumer type compact digital cameras, of continuing developments at Panasonic.

I have, in recent weeks, devoted considerable time and effort to reviewing top end compacts with a view to purchasing one myself to replace my ageing Digilux 4.3 and which I would use for semi serious media work. (if it works for that, it will work for almost everything else.) The models under continuous review include the Panasonic Lx2 (Also Leica version) and three of the Ricoh's, including the GR-D and the new GX100. Posts on these can be found on Ajax News and Info blogsite. A printed report was also in the British Journal of Photography earlier this year.

My feeling is that the GX100 has greater possibilities for high end repro image quality than the LX2, but it's not quite there yet and there is a big problem with geometric distortion - issues which could easily be fixed with firmware.

I meet occasionally with Pansonic's R&D DSC manager; sessions are devoted to imporoved ergonomics and looking at ways to bring on board professional (and enthusiast) desired features, such as an accessory shoe (aka Richoh) and better hand(ling) , but that's not happening at the moment for production and assembly reasons. I'd love to see a combination of some of the LX2 features and the GX100, so maybe some more work in this direction will bring forth .....who knows?

One of my pet Leica hassles has been trying to persuade the co. to also revamp the old IIIG with TTL, an M mount and other stuff. The idea has not been dismissed out of hand, but until now, they have not been equipped to do this. Perhaps when the new Wetzlar facility comes on line, they'll get around a table.

Meantime, for those who are interested, the M8 is under long term review and results will be published in due course. An early review is slated for the BJP in early August, but depth will be limited to page allocation. For the moment my opinions of this product are as published in the BJP last year.

Owners of M8s unhappy for whatever reason, feel free to post one liners under the topics of, Colour issues; Handling;

Shoot Kodachrome or lose it
:)
Jonathan
www.ajaxnetphoto.com

StuartR

07-21-2007, 06:44

I am a bit dubious about the whole "Leica for the soccer moms" thing, but if it enables them to continue to develop and sell the M and R line, I will put up with it.

As for the M8, I greatly enjoy using it, but I have a couple of pet peeves, probably similar to most other users.
1. I just don't like the crop factor. It's as simple as that...I feel a lot of the "magic" of certain lenses is gone with the crop factor. A 35mm f/1.4 ASPH turns into a nice 50mm lens, but is otherwise unmemorable. Same for 24/25mm lenses. Their ability have a very wide field of view yet with more or less natural perspective is gone. The 75mm lenses used to be unique in that they were able to isolate a detail and completely blur out the foreground and background, but still have a fairly wide angle of view. Now they are just like any other telephoto. The new framelines are also a bit of a drag. Anyway, I'll put up with it, but I do not like it.
2. The IR issue is real, in every shot and a big pain in the ***. In my experience, using the filters means cyan fringing and greater flare propensity, but not using them means color shifts (particularly in foliage, which goes brownish and of course any synthetic black which goes purple). This needs to be solved somehow in the next camera. It truly is a big shortcoming to an otherwise fantastic camera.

Otherwise I am quite happy with it.

aizan

07-21-2007, 06:59

a p&s with a 4/3 sensor, mostly panasonic designed
more options in a la carte, from limited editions
ff m9, maybe

ClaremontPhoto

07-21-2007, 07:15

I can envisage a 'carbon fiber' camera fixed lens digital camera, covered in black rubber, and engraved with my name.

existrandom

07-21-2007, 07:42

i am not sure about the digital direction, we have thousands of variants on the market and we are not exactly happy with anyone of them

i would want an MP with less glossy paint and a less ugly ASA dial at a more affordable prize; i am 32 years old, meeting my younger friends, i often have a feeling that i am among the last generation on earth who knows how to load film and would load them on a RF. i am thinking of starting to develop myself. before the whole thing dies

SteveM(PA)

07-21-2007, 08:36

One of my pet Leica hassles has been trying to persuade the co. to also revamp the old IIIG with TTL, an M mount and other stuff. The idea has not been dismissed out of hand, but until now, they have not been equipped to do this. Perhaps when the new Wetzlar facility comes on line, they'll get around a table.

Wow, really?

We've discussed, in the past, a rewind crank-powered battery-independent digital M, a sort of "digital MP." Does that sound like a totally wacko idea? :)

Any discussion of a drop-in digital film module for the analog M's or, (heck, since you brought it up) the barnacks even?

thank you

StuartR

07-21-2007, 09:08

We've discussed, in the past, a rewind crank-powered battery-independent digital M, a sort of "digital MP." Does that sound like a totally wacko idea? :)

Actually, yes, it sounds like a totally wacko idea. It's like putting a startup crank on a Mercedes SLK. Batteries are not the enemy! If you need a fully mechanical camera, there is the MP, if not just carry an extra battery...

I am not trying to be snide or mean about it, but don't you think there are better things that can be done? Even if it is just improving currently available models?

CameraQuest

07-21-2007, 09:30

one persistent rumor is a smaller, lower than M8 cost digital CL.

Whether this has anything to do with fact,
or is just CL owner's fantasy, I really have no idea.

Stephen

SteveM(PA)

07-21-2007, 09:39

How 'bout a winding crank that can be used optionally. All-brass black lacquer body with upgradeable CCD.

raid

07-21-2007, 09:42

A digital lower cost D-CLE with fullsized sensor and AF digital lenses and 100% viewfinder would be great. We might as well "optimize". Leitz could have an agreement with Luigi to have each D-CLE covered by a custom Luigi camera case.

Now that would be great.

Ben Z

07-21-2007, 09:59

one persistent rumor is a smaller, lower than M8 cost digital CL.

Whether this has anything to do with fact,
or is just CL owner's fantasy, I really have no idea.

Stephen

Personally I would rather see Leica have an identical M8 built for them in China so they could sell it for $2000 rather than a stripped-down CL derivative made in Germany for the same price. Leica could still sell the same M8 only built in Solms for $5000 to those people to whom it matters.

raid

07-21-2007, 10:03

... and build the D-CLE in China for $1000?

clintock

07-21-2007, 10:15

A full frame digital black and white only body. If you want color, use a tripod and three filters- then combine.
Low noise, high speed, no frindges, just shades of grey. Perhaps the sensor array with two or three different sensitivities available, to curve the response and prevent blowing/blocking.
Soccer moms have Canon.

StuartR

07-21-2007, 10:39

It seems pretty much everyone wants two things: full frame and lower cost. Perhaps they should do something like Canon and split the line in two: One camera can be full frame, maximum resolution with cost being less of a barrier (1Ds Mk II), the other could be a more compact, cheaper camera with a 1.3x and the current 10mp (not so much a 1D as a non full frame 5D). Obviously you can't please everyone all the time, but by offering a cost no object spec-ed out version and a more conservatively spec-ed and lower priced version you could probably cover most of your bases. Priced at 3000 and 7000 or something around there.

The issue of course is whether they have the research money to build and maintain two different cameras, and whether one will sell so much better than the other that having two different cameras makes no sense. Anyway, it's just a thought experiment.

mike_j

07-21-2007, 10:48

might appeal to 'American soccer mums..'

for the benefit of an English follower of football (as defined outside the US) or soccer to use the less popular old fashioned name, can you please explain what a 'soccer mum' is. I often see this term but it is quite meaningless to many of us.

clintock

07-21-2007, 11:28

A soccer mom is a North American woman who's daily routine consists of errands for her children, as well as friends of her children. Typically situated in sub-urban areas just outside of major cities, the soccer mom drives her 'minivan' (an estate car with no bonnet derived from a panel van, but with added seating and DVD players for every passenger), or minivan in disguise (the same as the 'minivan' but based on a pickup truck) to various soccer matches, the vehicle loaded with noisy children and their kit.
Competitiveness ensues, beyond the football matches, types of vehicle, who can scream loudest for their respective child etc. Oh and who has the best/most pictures of said children on the field. That's where the eye of the Leica marketeers may have been caught.
Any demographic member who would feel shame to not have DVD players in their vehicle would make a good customer for the latest super-zoom digicam, most probably.

Harry Lime

07-21-2007, 12:49

An M8-2 with:

- Frame lines as accurate as those in an M2 or M4. The current markings in the M8 are ridiculously far off. I do not expect the accuracy or an SLR, but we have gone from the framing being acceptably accurate, to being borderline unusable.

- A RF unit with framelines that compensate not only for parallax in x and y, but also shrinks and grows them based on focusing distance. This would solve the problem listed above. Leica already built a prototype like this several decades ago. The camera was auctioned at Westlight this year, along with a copy of the blueprints for the RF.

- True weather sealing on the M8 body and lenses that can be upgraded to have a gasket on their mount.

Firmware update that allows the M8 to write uncompressed 16bit files. I don't care that it will slow the camera down or that the files will be 20MB.

- A line of 'for digital' lenses for the M8 with integrated IR coatings.

- M9 with high-dynamic range sensor offering 12-14 stops of exposure at 10 or 12 MP and 16bit A/D converters. Maybe Fuji can make a SuperCCD for Leica.

- Dump 4/3rds and go for APS (x1.5) at a minimum.

- Lower the cost of all Leica gear. In the past I've bought several bodies and lenses new, but with the recent price increases even a die hard like me has thrown in the towel.

- R10 with a full frame 16MP chip. 16bit color, maybe high dynamic range like a Fuji SuperCCD. WEATHER SEALING! I have no desire to take a $8000 dollar unsealed digital camera out in the rain or to a humid climate.

- A Chinese built CL. 8-10MP, 14bit A/D, SD card. RF with accurate framelines.
Aperture priority mode, manual 'film' advance. $1599

Thanks!

HL

erikhaugsby

07-21-2007, 13:18

- A RF unit with framelines that compensate not only for parallax in x and y, but also shrinks and grows them based on focusing distance. ... Leica already built a prototype like this several decades ago. The camera was auctioned at Westlight this year, along with a copy of the blueprints for the RF.

I saw the auction for said camera, based on an M3 if I remember correctly, but there is a reason it didn't go beyond the prototype phase: it is too bloody expensive to make on a large scale. That and adding all the little bits and pieces necessary to make it work leaves lots of room for failure.

- A line of 'for digital' lenses for the M8 with integrated IR coatings.

The only issue here is if they go like Canon and make their digital-only lenses useable only on the current sub-frame sensor so that they are unable to be used on full-frame or film cameras. This would force them to keep a sub-frame sensor, or make users buy new lenses with each new sensor size "upgrade."

- M9 with high-dynamic range sensor offering 12-14 stops of exposure

Is this even possible? I quite honestly don't know.

- Dump 4/3rds and go for APS (x1.5) at a minimum.

The M8 has a 1.3x sensor, not APS and certainly not 4/3rds.

- Lower the cost of all Leica gear. In the past I've bought several bodies and lenses new, but with the recent price increases even a die hard like me has thrown in the towel.

And lower costs inherently leads to fewer innovations, fewer features, and very possibly lower quality and quality control. I buy Leica because I know that it is reliable; poor quality would give me no reason to stay with the brand.

- A Chinese built CL. 8-10MP, 14bit A/D, SD card. RF with accurate framelines.
Aperture priority mode, manual 'film' advance. $1599
Nice. :cool:

Al Patterson

07-21-2007, 13:31

one persistent rumor is a smaller, lower than M8 cost digital CL.

Whether this has anything to do with fact,
or is just CL owner's fantasy, I really have no idea.

Stephen

As someone who has participated in these sort of threads over at dpreview, my guess is this is a CL owner's fantasy.

But then again , I'd buy a digital CL or CLE if they made one at an affordable price.

ywenz

07-21-2007, 13:57

Wow, really?

We've discussed, in the past, a rewind crank-powered battery-independent digital M, a sort of "digital MP." Does that sound like a totally wacko idea? :)

What's wrong with batteries? (Oh wait, I forgot - M8 batteries are screwy) Anyways.. How often do people take off with their digital Ms to the middle of no where to ever require the crank? Not too often.

Terao

07-21-2007, 15:12

I meet occasionally with Pansonic's R&D DSC manager; sessions are devoted to imporoved ergonomics and looking at ways to bring on board professional (and enthusiast) desired features, such as an accessory shoe (aka Richoh) and better hand(ling) , but that's not happening at the moment for production and assembly reasons. I'd love to see a combination of some of the LX2 features and the GX100, so maybe some more work in this direction will bring forth .....who knows?

The biggest issue I have with Panasonic cameras is the noise reduction/image processing. I much prefer Ricoh's approach of not hiding the noise and letting me sort it (if needed) in post. Its a shame, I love their ergonomics and innovative approach to body design in general :(

Brian Sweeney

07-21-2007, 15:38

Leica probably does not have name recognition with most "Soccer Mom's" as Nikon or Canon. I see a lot of "Mom's" using DSLR's to take pictures at the Playground and Soccer field. These are the D50 class camera, and Canon equivalent. You are looking at an $800 setup. The same mom's use their point and shoot Digital cameras for Girl Scout activities and others events when they do not want to lug the "big camera" around. A couple of them give me some good-natured ribbing about me and my film cameras. Once I had an N8008s loaded with film and answered back "Oh Yeah! This camera USED to BE Digital!"

> Originally Posted by Harry Lime
>- A RF unit with framelines that compensate not only for parallax in x and y, but also shrinks and grows them based on focusing distance. ... Leica already built a
> prototype like this several decades ago. The camera was auctioned at Westlight this year, along with a copy of the blueprints for the RF.

My Konica S2 and Polaroid 180 have this feature. It would be much more complex for finders with multiple framelines. I do not see a "Great" advantage in the feature over standard parallax correction.

Harry Lime

07-21-2007, 15:58

I saw the auction for said camera, based on an M3 if I remember correctly, but there is a reason it didn't go beyond the prototype phase: it is too bloody expensive to make on a large scale. That and adding all the little bits and pieces necessary to make it work leaves lots of room for failure.

i'm pretty sure that Fujifilm did it in their 6x7 and 6x9 cameras. CNC machining really cuts costs these days. They could even do it electronically with the M8.
But regardless they have to do something. The framing accuracy on the M8 is atrocious, even for a rangefinder camera.

The only issue here is if they go like Canon and make their digital-only lenses useable only on the current sub-frame sensor so that they are unable to be used on full-frame or film cameras. This would force them to keep a sub-frame sensor, or make users buy new lenses with each new sensor size "upgrade."

I would settle for integrated IR coatings and full frame coverage. That would make the lenses future proof. My big question is if the IR filter can be integrated as a coating and how this would affect shooting on film.

Is this even possible? I quite honestly don't know.

Some day. Fuji is getting 10 stops of useable range out of the S5 PRO. That's two stops more than pretty much any other DSLR out there. If they could make a sensor that captured 12-14 stops even I would think about going digital. Until then I'm sticking with Tri-X and color negative. ;-)

>The M8 has a 1.3x sensor, not APS and certainly not 4/3rds.

Yes, I know.

I was talking about Leicas D-LUX cameras that are based on Panasonic
units. 4/3rds is a technological dead end. Due to the small footprint of the sensor the individual receptor size is very small. This makes it very difficult or impossible to produce a sensor that had good high iso performance and large dynamic range. Leica needs to go at least APS on their low end, otherwise every entry level Canon or Nikons will kick their can.

>And lower costs inherently leads to fewer innovations, fewer features, and very >possibly lower quality and quality control. I buy Leica because I know that it is >reliable; poor quality would give me no reason to stay with the brand.

Actually it doesn't. High sales fuel greater demand for next generation products and increased revenue can be pumped into the R&D of new products. In the past Leica has always been short on cash to develop new products, because their sales are so low. Larger sales would also allow them to lower their prices. Leica will never be a huge volume seller, at least not the rangefinder cameras, but it would be nice if they could get back to sales figures they had back in the 1950 and 60's.

HL

Slipkid

07-21-2007, 17:05

About three years ago, I purchased a Sigma SD10 digital SLR kit. I was impressed by the Foveon technology used for the sensor...RGB at over 3 MP each...marketed as a 10 plus MP camera. At that time, only the Pro versions from Nikon and Canon could approach that kind of pixel density. I enjoyed the quality of the pictures. Much higher than my P&S digicams. I also have a Nikon D70s, and the Sigma more than holds it's own...

Of course, after the D70s, the film bug bit me again and I have some very nice Leica rangefinders and glass to go with them...So, I am not shooting as much digital as I was...:)

Now, I have a Lumix with Leica glass...small, but with features that I can use to do more than just take snapshots...I would love to see an improved M8 M-style digital product...Perhaps using a Foveon sensor would debug the IR issue? Had the engineers even considered not using a CMOS-style sensor?

Cheers,
AJ

IGMeanwell

07-21-2007, 17:18

I would also be on board as looking for a cheaper D-CL

but hell it would be even better if they could get a nice compact fixed-focal length camera (ala the Yashica T4 or Fuji Natura S), with a 4/3rds sensor

mostly because that Venus III engine for the smaller sensors is some of the worst noise reduction I have ever seen barely usable at ISO400

Tuolumne

07-21-2007, 18:56

I would like a Leica version of something like the GRD.. but with even better handling.. I think this could sell very well.

And with a buffer so you can take more than one RAW photo at a time. The RAW speed is so sloooow (maybe 10 seconds) that you have to be very dedicated to this camera to use it.

/T

ZeissFan

07-22-2007, 05:17

Wow, really?

We've discussed, in the past, a rewind crank-powered battery-independent digital M, a sort of "digital MP." Does that sound like a totally wacko idea? :)

Interesting thought but not a good idea. While charged, everything would be fine. However, the true danger would occur when the charge ran down during a write cycle to the memory card. It most certainly would lead to memory card corruption, which sometimes is irreversible and cannot be corrected by formatting the card.

Hand cranks are great for flashlights and radios. Not so good for complex computerized devices (which digital cameras are).

ywenz

07-22-2007, 05:59

And with a buffer so you can take more than one RAW photo at a time. The RAW speed is so sloooow (maybe 10 seconds) that you have to be very dedicated to this camera to use it.

/T

Well obviously... at the premium Leica will be chargin for such a marvolous cam, I better expect adequate raw buffer... If they don't.. why i oughtaa..

mac_wt

07-22-2007, 06:03

I like the idea of the digital CL. It could even come with a fixed lens (that way the 'crop factor' becomes irrelevant and sensor size becomes less of an issue). I would like a relatively compact digital camera with a big viewfinder and real manual focus. But I don't think that Leica could get it within my price range (€ 600 - 800, maybe a bit more for the Leica brand and service).

Gabriel M.A.

07-22-2007, 07:31

That's a good idea Eric! I would love a Leica AF like the the Hexar AF (but a more simple camera to use than the Hexar AF): 35mm lens, a Summilux for instance; aperture priority; silent mode, small ... . Yes that would be great :)
I think they tried that already with the Minilux, with a 40mm f/2.5 (or is it 2.4?) lens

Silent mode, though. That would be sweet.

Let's create a sub-sub-sub forum to discuss that one camera!

gb hill

07-22-2007, 08:49

If this Mr. Lee is merging Leica with Panasonic, and I already know Panasonic & Leica styles of the same bodies exhist today, (which is a big mistake IMHO). If Mr Lee is going after the soccer moms of America, and thinks he can compete with Canon and Nikon. He's driving the nail in the coffin for Leica. Go to a Circuit City and check out the prices on the Rebel xti and the new slr Nikon has out. These are great quality cameras at fantastic prices. Panasonic, with several other brands will fall in the next while I beleive, unless R&D comes up with something truly amazing. Leica is a nitche company and they will not survive the ditigal race if they go this route i'm afraid.

Gabriel M.A.

07-22-2007, 15:25

An M8-2 with:
- True weather sealing on the M8 body and lenses that can be upgraded to have a gasket on their mount.
I think fake weather sealing's fine so far. I really wouldn't want any fake weather to get into my M8.

Chris101

07-22-2007, 21:21

As a 'soccer boyfriend' I have to agree with the notion that a Leica would appeal to soccer moms is, using another American term, whack. Sure name recognition and status are important to soccer moms. However one thing they all agree on is that size matters.

c.poulton

07-23-2007, 04:53

I just hope that Leica keep producing lenses for 35mm film format - we have already lost the 28-35-50mm Tri-Elmar to the 16-18-21mm built exclusively for the M8's 1.33 crop factor sensor! What's next?

Brian Sweeney

07-23-2007, 05:30

Basically, I think a lot of the members here want Leica to pick up the price range that Epson just vacated with the cease of production of the RD-1. A Leica CL for the 21st century would be ideal. I believe that it must be an interchangeable lens camera to woo over all those with existing LTM and M-mount lenses. I've got my S-Mount to M-Mount adapter just waiting.

rxmd

07-23-2007, 06:12

we have already lost the 28-35-50mm Tri-Elmar to the 16-18-21mm built exclusively for the M8's 1.33 crop factor sensor!
Have we? I thought the wideangle Tri-Elmar was built to cover the full 24x36 format.

Philipp

icebear

07-23-2007, 07:34

This is going to sound like heresy but I have to say it.

Leica should build autofocus lenses. With the introduction of the M8, Leica has moved away from the "all manual" format. With aperture priority on the M7 and M8, the next thing to introduce is autofocus lenses. These lenses should have a swtich to turn off AF when not wanted.
Having a combination of the fine M8 sensor, Leica glass, and autofocus would be very appealing.
And I have already braced myself for the strong negative responses to this idea.

Eric

Hi Eric, there hasn't been a lot of response to your wish for autofocus, so I guess it's clear to most users that this road is a deadend for lens quality. Just compare and Canon FD lens (manual focus) to the EOS/ED (autofocus lenses) Because you pack all the motor mechanics into the lens, it gets bulky and the lens throw needs to complement what the motor can drive. The bulkier lenses would block too much of the rf. You will never get the same accuracy with the autofocus movement. Tolerences will have to be significantly larger. That's not what you want to compromize for that feature.

ferider

07-23-2007, 09:58

Personally I would rather see Leica have an identical M8 built for them in China so they could sell it for $2000 rather than a stripped-down CL derivative made in Germany for the same price. Leica could still sell the same M8 only built in Solms for $5000 to those people to whom it matters.

There is no way you can build an equivalent camera for US 2000, in China or elsewhere.
Check Sensor prices. M8 sensor is made in the US, BTW.

Roland.

StuartR

07-23-2007, 11:47

I imagine the people to whom it matters would also include the senior management and workers of Leica Camera AG, the majority of whom live in Solms and Wetzlar.

Tuolumne

07-23-2007, 11:50

It's interesting...no one here has a really bang up idea for what Leica should do next. Doesn't bode well for the company.

/T

John Shriver

07-23-2007, 15:59

As I've mentioned somewhere before, it would be trivial to make a "smart frameline" finder for the next Leica rangefinder camera. Throw out the metal mask, the arm that moves it, and the illuminating window. Install a small LCD display, monochrome, backlit. It displays the correct framelines. You just need to read the lens lug, and a very high resolution shaft encoder on the rangefinder arm. That can automatically create the right frameline, including parallax and frame size compensation. It can also use the six-bit code (if available) to display just the one correct frameline, rather than both ones associated with that lens lug cut.

There could even be a menu to control how conservative to make the framelines (90% to 110%), how thick to make them, solid or corners only. They could also display the lens focal length at the bottom. Heck, they can display the shutter speed there too, along with the exposure readout.

Of course, the menu would also allow selecting an arbitrary focal length, just in case you're using a Hektor 73mm lens, a Summarex 85mm, or a Nikkor 105mm, none of which have framelines in any M camera today.

You also get framelines that don't depend on ambient light for illumination. This may also allow some changes in the optical path of the finder.

The frameline illumination level can also be set by the external photocell, since you obviously do want to dim them indoors.

c.poulton

07-23-2007, 23:42

Have we? I thought the wideangle Tri-Elmar was built to cover the full 24x36 format.

Philipp

Philipp, yes you are absolutely right - the Tri-Elmar does indeed cover 24x36, I stand corrected...

However, Leica have stopped selling the 28-35-50mm which the 16-18-21mm replaces. (Equivalent 28-35-50mm on the M8 if you factor in sensor crop) I am concerned about Leica moving too far down the digital road...

varjag

07-23-2007, 23:44

Perhaps a no-frills M8. No LCD, no engravings, zinc top :) Maybe bluetooth/wifi link to external, separately sold, companion storage gadget with LCD. That might bring the costs down a bit, as well as make camera slimmer again.

Iron Flatline

07-24-2007, 00:56

The whole soccer-mom thing is easy. I wish they simply put a good design team on customizing the next D-Lux, they can even rebrand it as the digital CM.

What they ought to do... (as a business man I hate these threads where outsiders [without discernable business skills] give business advice) ... is they should really create a retro-design package. This has worked incredibly well for companies like Mini. If they could come up with a classic design that offers full auto as well as substantial manual controls, they could have a real design icon. This is imperative for company like Leica. It could do more for them long-term than yet another lens where people who never really shoot pictures complain about back-focusing or whatever else is irking every forum user that month.

There's plenty of soccer moms (or other regular consumers with actual disposable income) that would prefer something cool rather than another mega-pixel high-ISO lots-of-function camera. No one is catering to them right now.

Style matters, Leica has it, they're just not using it. They really need to stop listening to people like us who get deeply geeked over a bunch of functionality most consumers don't even understand, never mind use. Leica has limited resources, I understand that. But they're constantly playing defense by coming up with super-high end products that only we understand, but killing themselves in the consumer market by being 50% more than Panasonic with an effectively indescernable product.

MAKE IT COOLER!

....

Oh yeah, and a Full-Frame R10 with AF, while you're at it :-)

rxmd

07-24-2007, 03:04

However, Leica have stopped selling the 28-35-50mm which the 16-18-21mm replaces. (Equivalent 28-35-50mm on the M8 if you factor in sensor crop)
The M8 has a crop factor of approximately 1.3; that means the angle of view for a 16-18-21 Tri-Elmar on the M8 is approximately 21-24-28. Quite far from the 28-35-50 that the normal Tri-Elmar covers. So no, the new lens is not replacing the old. A "replacement" would have focal lengths 21-28-35, approximately.

Philipp

c.poulton

07-24-2007, 10:13

Philipp, sorry, again I stand corrected and maybe my ignorance on anything digital is showing - or maybe I am just being paranoid?

Anyway, I wonder why Leica discontinued the 28-35-50, and not introduced a 21-28-35 as you so rightly pointed out would replace the 'old' Tri-Elmar on the M8, or at least keep manufacturing the 28-35-50 to offer some choice?

jaapv

07-26-2007, 06:10

The glass was no longer available at an acceptable price.

RdEoSg

07-27-2007, 20:36

Personally like some others have mentioned here, the next thing I'd like to see Leica do is either give up on making point and shoot digitals, or put some decent sensors in the things to start with. The Leica and Panasonic sensors are absolute garbage compared to the other big camera brands.

Every time a used Panasonic or Leica P&S comes in to the store I work at, I test it against the Canon's we carry. I would love to switch over and get one with Leica glass but the Canon images are always twice as good at half the price. I don't get the concept. It is plain as day to see that the images have more noise than the Canon's and yet they do nothing to solve the problem? Who cares how great the glass is and how big the screen is if the half price Canon looks twice as good?!?!?!

Several times I have done quick real world tests with the cameras. I'll take shots inside and outside the store using the same iso settings, color settings, etc. And then show customers the images with out telling them which were the Leica or Panasonic shots, and which were the Canon shots. The customers choose the Canon photos every time.

Ajax

07-28-2007, 17:22

I don't want to set the world on fire but if indications from a recent (end June) big manufacturer media symposium in Lisbon is anything to go by, the kind of compact point and shoot digital cameras we now see may soon be a thing of the past. The talk is all about nice n'squeezy polymer lenses and bundled corrective software in something that could look like an oversized plastic bodied postcard - touch screens and big ones at that. You'd probably be right in hazarding a guess that all the companies in this market which have short camera making histories will persue the masses with low end products producing acceptable (for the target maket) levels of image quality, while some of those who have longer tails will struggle to survive in an even smaller niche than they presently occupy, but with better (and more expensive) products.

For Leica enthusiasts (me too !), we had better hope that Mr Lee pulls something out of the hat soon. I believe he may be thinking something retro, but (D)CL, or (D)CM or (D)111G is anyone's guess and probably not before they are all camped in the new Leitz Park in Wetzlar.

regards
Jonathan
Kodachrome - use it or lose it!

>www.ajaxnetphoto.com<

:)

ccs

07-28-2007, 22:07

I think a fixed lens 38 mm equiv. F2 or so, on a 1.5 or 1.6 crop sensor that shoots Raw would sell well, if it wasn't priced too high. It seems like the only thing that no one has made and most people would like. I thought Sigma was going to do it with a slow F4 lens, but it doesn't seem to be materializing.

F456

07-30-2007, 03:29

Jonathan,

What I would like:
1. I know flash is usually far from M-users' thoughts but just sometimes a decent bounceable flash along the lines of - but not as big as - Nikon's SB800 would be useful. Ideally it would be small enough to fit the compact feel of the M-series (film and M8), would have bounce capability, and would be just that step beyond the current straight-ahead flash units like the SF24D. It would zoom at least to fit the standard 28mm FOV, but maybe no more since the shorter FOVs always need accessory finders and they take up the hotshoe space. I suspect that some of the current Metz offerings are a bit unwieldy with M-style bodies.

2. A 24mm that doesn't take up so much of the viewfinder in the M8. Maybe a bit like the new 28mm f/2.8 Elmarit-M ASPH. I know that the current 24mm Elmarit is a cracking lens optically, of course. But it would be nice for the widest length useable in the M8's built-in finder not to block so much of the view through it.

3. A recomputed longer length with goggles but not as large or heavy as the discontinued 135mm f/2.8 Elmarit-M to give 180mm FOV coverage or something close to it on the M8. It could be a slightly shorter focal length presumably as all that is needed viewing-wise would be to provide ocular magnification for the 90mm frame to correspond to the chosen focal length (whether 100, 105, 120, 135, or whatever). I believe that the glasses used in the 135/2.8 ceased to be available in the mid 90s, but I could be incorrect. I know 135mm isn't that fashionable a length, but there are people (like me!) who use it.

Thank you,
Tom

spysmart

07-30-2007, 04:09

M8:
I hope we get a M8-2 soon - with something like on sensor micro-lens IR filters.
If 10K M8s have been sold, could that mean their supply contract can be re-negotiated with Kodak and a fix incorporated.
I don't really want to wait another couple of year for proven M9, but I will if nothing changes.

Lenses:
24mm Summicron please.
Is the 50mm Summicron price hike to ration demand until the ASPH replacement comes on line?

Compact:
A Pan-Leica non-changeable 19mm (38mm equiv) f/2.8 with a 4/3 sensor and OVF please.
( NB: make it all black Leica, not cheap looking 2 tone, or I will buy the Panasonic one )

Rob-F

08-18-2007, 08:33

Well, I'm not Jonathan Eastland (does he ever really post here, or am I missing something), but I'd like that Digital CL (CDL?). It wouldn't have to be the size of the CL to make me happy, though that might be nice! If it could be the size and shape of a Nikon FM or even F3, I would be happy. So as not to compete too much with the M8, some compromises could be made.

For instance, it can have a moire filter. The pictures may not be quite as sharp, for instance, but it would make life simpler for some of us, not to have to worry about an IR filter. Resolution? 7.5 megapixels should do it. That's enough for a first-class 8 x 10, and, I tend to think, 11 x 14 or even larger. As to CF card vs. SD, I could go either way, though the SD would fit into a smaller camera. Possible the sensor size should be the more common 18 x 24mm, with a 1.5 crop factor, to reduce competition with M8 and its 1.33 factor.

I'm calling for a body shape more like a Nikon than like the R4 through R7, because the slightly tapered contour and small size of the latter models feels less secure in my hands. It needs to be just a tad longer/wider than the R cameras, to allow enough room for fingers.

A winding lever? No. Form should follow function. You don't need a winding lever on a digital. A good rubber grippy coating, a rubber thumb perch on the back, and a small grip contour on the front will be enough to ensure secure hand-holding.

Since a rangefinder does not need a mirror, I want a live-view LCD panel. Live view is one of the advantages of a digital camera. I think it could be achieved.

It should have an ultrasonic sensor cleaner.

It can, and probably should, be made in Japan to hold cost down. Leica purists will then want the made-in-Germany M8, which will help prevent the CDL (Compact Digital Leica) from competing too seriously with the M8.

simondsch

08-28-2007, 18:55

My suggestion for Leica is to continue to build products geared to the prosperous enthusiast and the professionals, it is the market they have now and it seems to be a good business. Canon and Nikon seem to be doing quite well in this market with body+lens combinations of roughly the same cost as a M8 with Summicron or Summilux lenses. I internet rumor mill suggests that the production rates of Canon 1D and Nikon D2X and D3 bodies are a few thousand units a month, not wildly more than the M8's production rate. Nikon and Canon have maintained home country, Japanese, production of their professional lines. It appears that both Nikon and Canon have segregated the Professional products from the rapid product cycle and low cost manufacturing of their consumer product lines. Where Nikon and Canon have an advantage of Leica is in marketing and distribution where Leica's cameras cannot share costs with a mass-market product line.

If the concept behind the tie-in with Panasonic was to develop a mass-market camera business, Leica seems to have bet on the wrong horse. Virtually all of the Panasonic products have had some major flaw and their market penetration does not seem significant, at least in North America.

Given market realities what should Leica do next that will appeal to the market they seem to have? I will totally ignore the collector market, I don't understand it. The M8's small body, quiet operation and fast lenses offer advantages over the Canon 1D/1Ds and the Nikon D3 bodies coupled to zoom lenses generally with a maximum aperture of f2.8. Those factors seem to have made the M8 enough a success to market the available inventory of M8 bodies and totally over oversubscribe the market for Leica lenses. After years of struggle Leica seems to have found a real market.

It can be assumed that the production run of the M8 as currently designed will be limited by the availability of electronic components. For example the sensor by Kodak and the processor from Analogue Devices will probably go out of production in a year or so. I doubt that it will be possible to make new M8's in 5 years, probably less. The component availability issue suggests that the natural progression from the M8 would be one with new electronics. Given that Leica’s strength seems to be in low light and hand held photography the obvious path to grow is for a sensor with better low light (i.e. high ISO) response, and improved software or firmware to improve color response and noise reduction. A small camera which can yield high quality images at an ISO of 1600 with a f1.4 of f 2 lens is my dream. Further down my personal priority list would be in-body vibration reduction and sensor cleaning. For hand-held photography sensors with more than 12 Mp seem of little advantage, especially if the added sensors come at the expense of nloise.:)

HAnkg

09-07-2007, 19:06

Two things I'd like to see:

For the next version of the M8 an improved optical rangefinder using LCD technology for the frames to correct for not only parralax but also frame size. It should look just like the current finder just more accurate. Also make ISO and EV analogue controls.

A small sensor B+W camera based on the electronics of the current Panasonic P&S's. The grainy digital version of a barnack camera loaded with Tri-X. With a decent RAW buffer, optical viewfinder, analogue controls and a hyperfocal mode you set the aperture and focus locks on the correct hyperfocal distance. Fixed 35mm equivilent lens or a 28-50 bi-summarit switch focal lengths and finder mag by turning knurled ring on the finder. See photos.

emraphoto

09-07-2007, 21:05

"If this Mr. Lee is merging Leica with Panasonic, and I already know Panasonic & Leica styles of the same bodies exhist today, (which is a big mistake IMHO). If Mr Lee is going after the soccer moms of America, and thinks he can compete with Canon and Nikon. He's driving the nail in the coffin for Leica. Go to a Circuit City and check out the prices on the Rebel xti and the new slr Nikon has out. These are great quality cameras at fantastic prices. Panasonic, with several other brands will fall in the next while I beleive, unless R&D comes up with something truly amazing. Leica is a nitche company and they will not survive the ditigal race if they go this route i'm afraid."
in the many years of using an dfollowing leica products i cannot tell you how many times i have heard the "seemimgly inevitable demise" of leica routine. i for one would like to see leica concentrate on improving and supporting the m8 platform. i don't ask for full frame as i know perfectly well the m8 full frame will be a tad out of my price range. continue with the "soccer mom" market... increase market value, better the m8 and perhaps, just perhaps use all the formula's that i am sure are well under way to slightly reduce the purchase cost of the m8. it would be, in my opinion, foolish to not assume leica is full bore into a dslr project right now .

emraphoto

09-07-2007, 21:06

ps hank... i'd buy one! when do you think you can have them ready to ship?

HAnkg

09-08-2007, 03:01

ps hank... i'd buy one! when do you think you can have them ready to ship?
While I'm sure there are many who would like to see a compact CL or fixed lens CM with perhaps an APS-C (1.6x crop factor) sized chip. Judging from the size and price of Leica's 4/3 (2.0x crop factor) cameras it doesn't seem possible any time soon.

The Ricoh GRD has ushered in a new digital small format aesthetic. Very much in the tradition of the original Leica small format reportage camera.

Why be content with just rebadging Panasonic P&S's. A repackaged Panasonic with the right user interface, firmware, lens and optical finder would make a great small sensor reportage camera. No need to develop the electronics just lift them from one of the current Panasonics. Leica could charge maybe $300 more then Ricoh to cover the added expense of the optical finder. Or make the finder an optional accessory and make it output color so it can double as a posh retro point and shoot. Having access to the color info gives you more choices in the final look of the B&W image anyway. Have it manufactured in Asia along with the rebadged P&S cameras. It seems like it is something that is doable with current resources and technology. Could become a cult classic.

HAnkg

09-08-2007, 03:36

IGMeanwell

09-08-2007, 04:08

I'd add one more thing I'd like to see in the next M8. Shake reduction on sensor with the ability to switch it off.

Rather then excessive software anti-noise routines which give very digital looking smoothed images, put vibration reduction on the sensor. With Canon and Nikon putting ISO 6400+ into their new cameras, a Leica sensor with vibration reduction, lack of SLR mirror slap combined with Leica's fast primes would give better low light results at lower ISO's with less software artifacts with the added flexibility of getting more DOF when you need it in low light conditions. Imagine a Leica prime shot at f/1.4, 1/8th at ISO 640 with IS/VR compared to a Canon L zoom shot at f2.8, 1/30 at ISO 12,000 (I trhink I got the math right:)).

Well in a perfect world, they could strike some sort of contract with Sony allowing them to use the Sony sensors and their Super Steady Shot (basically the Minolta anti-shake sensor shift tech), which can be turned on or off ... though unless Sony does it with their alleged Flag-ship model due out ... I haven't seen a Full frame camera with sensor shift yet

spysmart

09-08-2007, 04:24

Shake reduction isn't going to help in many situations - subjects move.

With a M6 and 35 1.4 ASPH and 800 ISO Fuji @ 1/15s I seem to be able record more than eye can see. But people keep moving - very quickly when dancing etc. Higher ISO is the only solution in those situations. I can see why sports photographer are going to love the 25600 ISO boost on the D3 . But look at the size of that camera with a f/2.8 STD zoom - compared to a M + 35 'lux.

If Leica are going to be stuck with a crop sensor - a 24 'cron or 28 'lux could be the answer - but v/f cut off would be more of an issue.

I would like to see a 6Mpixel M8 variant with a clean 6400 ISO image as a step forwards. A 12Mpixel low ISO model would be a nice compliment ( similar to Canon's 1D and 1Ds strategy )

On the compact side: The GRD came nowhere close to a GR1 with fuji 800 - so I sold mine ( even NPH @400 looked better than the GRD at 100 ).

A GRDmkII is expected soon - if they have listened to all the feedback, they tip not to 12Mp of noise, but to 6Mp of speed with an OVF. The GX100 can be the consumer Mp race, general purpose camera. The GRD needs to 'go against' the flow in order to win my respect. Leica shows no signs of being able to get anything as creative as that out of Panasonic.

rxmd

09-08-2007, 04:58

A GRDmkII is expected soon - if they have listened to all the feedback, they tip not to 12Mp of noise, but to 6Mp of speed with an OVF.
Taking less than 15 seconds to record a RAW file would be a nice add-on as well.

Philipp

HAnkg

09-08-2007, 05:35

Shake reduction isn't going to help in many situations - subjects move.
It's not a panacea but it will help in many low light shots of the sort the M is used for. Rangefinders are not going to be the choice of sports photographers even if super high ISO were available.

On the compact side: The GRD came nowhere close to a GR1 with fuji 800 - so I sold mine ( even NPH @400 looked better than the GRD at 100 ).

That's not the point. Photographers are embracing the noise (in B&W) and the incredible DOF and producing some very good work. It's not unlike the early Leica with it's low quality, grainy tiny film format in an age when press photographers shot 4x5 for quality. Not everyone loves pushed TRi-X (just an anology not comparing actual quality or results) but some do and produce great stuff with it.

Look at some of the most iconic 35mm images. Many are soft, grainy with much less resolution and detail then is possible with modern lenses and film emulsions. But the impact and look is transcendent. A tiny small format reportage camera would be very much in the Leica tradition.