please help, loosing last frame with Mamiya 7

[Chad]

I have read and re-read the loading instructions for my Mamiya 7 and I can't seem to load it properly so that I get a full 10 frames. The last frame gets cut off (see picture).

- I put the paper tab in the take-up spool.

- I start cranking the wind lever until the film start line is lined up with the arrow on the body.

- I close the back door and continue winding until "1" appears in the exposure window.

The only thing strange that I've noticed is that when the line and the arrow are aligned I am about halfway through a stroke. If I finish the stroke I'm about an inch past the start line.

Any help with this would be greatly appreciated. Loosing 10% of the film per role is not cool.

If there is anyone in Portland who would be willing to load a roll into my camera I will buy you a coffee.


thanks

~Chad

[Chad]

Oh yea, the picture:

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=47547&d=1184631050

[Jim Watts]

Try just engaging the film tab in the take up spool but not fully winding on to the start line. Leave the arrow on the film backing to the left about two inches short of the start line if possible. Close the back and then try. See how the spacing then works at each end.

[photomadnz]

Yes I have the same problem and always have. You need to just wind on about an inch past the start mark. I have got used to winding it on until it the start mark lines up with one of the small metal plates above the shutter opening.

[Chad]

Yes I have the same problem and always have. You need to just wind on about an inch past the start mark. I have got used to winding it on until it the start mark lines up with one of the small metal plates above the shutter opening.


Huh? So is what you are describing a method for getting all 10 frames?

Does anyone get 10 frames per roll out of their Mamiya 7? If so, please explain. :(



~Chad

[Chad]

Try just engaging the film tab in the take up spool but not fully winding on to the start line. Leave the arrow on the film backing to the left about two inches short of the start line if possible. Close the back and then try. See how the spacing then works at each end.

Jim, I thought about doing this but I don't think it would help. The camera still insists on taking up a certain amount of film before displaying frame 1.

I need to figure out a way to A: load this thing properly if I'm not doing so....or B: trick the camera to display frame 1 with less leader taken up.


~Chad

[Ali Riza Kutlu]

well, I am always having 10 frames from my Mami 7. I see the start point and then close the back cover ....I don't think I am doing a magic though..

[Chad]

well, I am always having 10 frames from my Mami 7. I see the start point and then close the back cover ....I don't think I am doing a magic though..


Hmm, so you are winding until you see the start line, closing the door, and winding until "1" comes in the window?


Chad

[Ali Riza Kutlu]

actually yes...

cheers, A

[Jim Watts]

Jim, I thought about doing this but I don't think it would help. The camera still insists on taking up a certain amount of film before displaying frame 1.

I need to figure out a way to A: load this thing properly if I'm not doing so....or B: trick the camera to display frame 1 with less leader taken up.


~Chad
Chad,
I dont have the Mamiya 7 so I can't be certain with that camera, but I do have the Mamiya 6 and a 6 x 7 Plaubel W67. Although they don't cut the last frame like yours it can be close to the end (causing possible processing damage) and leaving the arrows short of the start mark seems to leave more at the end. I think the initial take up amount to get to frame 1 should be a fixed amount (i.e. ideally approximately 8 inches from the arrows, which should be about 16 inches from the tab end with most 120 films). This 8 inches just gets you past the backing paper onto the film. If you have a consistent excess of blank film at the start then repositioning the arrows should work.

Worth a try? :)

[Jim Watts]

Chad,
Update on above.
Well I apologise, there does seem to some film sensing when winding on to frame 1 with the Mamiya 6 and it maybe even more so with the 7. With an old film I tested the difference between using the arrows at the start mark in the back and positioning the arrows at the left film chamber (approx 2.5 inches before the start marks). With the arrows at the start mark the M6 winds on 8.25 inches (from arrows) to get to frame 1. With arrows at the left-hand film chamber it winds on 7 inches (from arrows) to get to frame 1. Therefore you only gain 1.25 inches not the full 2.5. Setting a point between the chamber and the start marks you gain even less.

It seems the camera can only be partly 'fooled' as it probably senses the difference between film + backing and backing alone. Just engaging the film (safely) in the take up spool (approx 1 inch) then shutting the back and winding on to frame 1 gave the most gain, approx 2.75 inches (but this represents 13 inches total wound on from closing the back). All results were consistent when repeated.

You may want to try something like this yourself with the M7 using an old film and marking points on the backing paper just to see if you can get away without a repair.

Jim

[photomadnz]

Seems like there could be some variation between models as some people get all 10 with the arrow dead on the start mark. Anyway, I never have and friends havent with theres either, if you wind the arrow past the mark and halfway to the film chamber I get all 10. It simply needs about another 1/2 - 1 inch of wind on before you close the back. Cheers

[Chad]

Thank you everyone. I'll see what I can do.


Chad

[andrew moxom]

Chad, I do not have the Mamiya 7 but I do have the Mamiya 6. The problem you are experiencing is not actually a problem. The film counter only works when the film back is closed. So put in a new film, and wind till the arrows match up regardless of where the film winder is in it's stroke. DO NOT TRY TO MAKE IT GO ONTO THE END OF ITS WINDING STROKE. (that will cause your problem) Now close the back, and start winding on again until frame #1 appears and locks the winder ready for exposure. Follow that and I can guarantee 10 frames on the film. It's closing the back that starts the frame counter process. Winding past the arrow is not meant to be done period. There is a standard distance (give or take a few millimeters) between the arrows and the actual start of the film. It is possible to make that change a little either way, but that is not the real reason for your problem. Hope this makes sense? IF problems are still there, then it could be incorrect spool diameter, or your winder needs a service.

[Jim Watts]

Seems like there could be some variation between models as some people get all 10 with the arrow dead on the start mark. Anyway, I never have and friends havent with theres either, if you wind the arrow past the mark and halfway to the film chamber I get all 10. It simply needs about another 1/2 - 1 inch of wind on before you close the back. Cheers

Sorry, I can't see the logic in this if Chad is missing half the last frame "The last frame gets cut off " that is frame number 10 and not frame number 1. (It looks like frame 10 as I can't see any tape residual from where the film is attached to the backing paper on the film end in the photo, which you usually get at the start). Going past the start mark in theory would mean less film at the end of the roll.

But in any case see my post about testing (not matching theory) with an old film (or just waste a film and keep for re-use - it helps to tape the loose film end to the backing paper as well to help re-winding by hand) and marking the results on the backing paper (above). You could do this at either/both ends of the film ensuring that when you open the back the film gate fully covered film and not backing paper for all of frame 1 and all of frame 10.

Of course Andrew is correct about not needing to go to the end of the wind stroke before closing the back, which starts the frame counter.