New 18 mp Nikon coming in Sept. [Archive]

ZeissFan

07-10-2007, 17:05

It will be interesting to see if this is true. I wonder if it will be priced in line with the Canon 5D or the 1DSII and what effect this will have on pricing of Canon's stuff.

Amateur Photographer believes that Sony is preparing a full-frame digital for its Alpha line of cameras. And because Nikon uses Sony sensors, it could very well be that Nikon will offer a full-frame camera.

I was going to make some smarty-pants crack about the "industry source" or "friend with inside knowledge" that gets quoted much too often on Internet forums. Instead, I'll just take a wait-and-see attitude.

Gabriel M.A.

07-10-2007, 17:11

full frame 35mm sensor with no crop factor, backward compatible with lenses made for 1.5x crop factor.
I have a water filter that is backward compatible with liquid nitrogen. I drink water all the time, you should trust me ;)

FrankS

07-10-2007, 17:16

I think the photo is a fake.

(joke - think back about the M8 speculations)

Tuolumne

07-10-2007, 17:20

Tuolumne

07-10-2007, 17:22

I have a water filter that is backward compatible with liquid nitrogen. I drink water all the time, you should trust me ;)

It apparently has a switch that flips it back and forth from full-frame mode to 1.5x crop-factor mode. I assume that means it would have lower resolution in the 1.5x crop factor mode.

/T

Tuolumne

07-10-2007, 17:25

Tell us more. What kind of connection does he have. Any idea on pricing? We have all heard of the d3 but is there any validity to this?

No info on pricing. I assume it would be in the same ball park as Canon's highest-end full-frame senor. I think this is supposed to be the Nikon D3x.

/T

BrianPhotog

07-10-2007, 17:31

No info on pricing. I assume it would be in the same ball park as Canon's highest-end full-frame senor. I think this is supposed to be the Nikon D3x.

/T
There isn't going to be an 'x' or 'h' anymore. After the d2h was released nikon made some statement to the point of there being no further need to having 2 seperate lines.

It should be just a 'D3'

ywenz

07-10-2007, 17:34

You mean it's compatible with the lenses made especially for the smaller sensors? I wonder what the point of that is.. You'd expect immense vignetting with those lenses with a full frame sensor.

IGMeanwell

07-10-2007, 17:53

You mean it's compatible with the lenses made especially for the smaller sensors? I wonder what the point of that is.. You'd expect immense vignetting with those lenses with a full frame sensor.

It will crop its full frame sensor to accomodate the DX lenses

its allows those who own the 17-55 2.8 or 12-24 4 DX lenses to still use them on the new body without vignetting

IF Nikon wants to get a big chunk of the crowd it would be wise to make sure the price is below 7 grand

jlw

07-10-2007, 18:13

rogue_designer

07-10-2007, 18:19

... and also, as time goes by, fewer and fewer photographers care about having a sensor the same size as ye old filmme that Grandpa used to use...

True - but what they do care about is image quality, and photosites can only be crammed in those smaller sensors to a point before quality suffers (s/n ratio). The bigger sensor would mean that nikon could compete on a pure iq basis, and really take advantage of their wonderful older lenses. Which is an advantage over Canon.

just my $.02

blakley

07-10-2007, 18:22

Nikon has made such a big investment (financial and psychological) in its DX format and lenses that I just can't believe they'd change course now and revert to a 24x36mm-format sensor.

It would be like admitting that Canon was right and they were wrong, and also, as time goes by, fewer and fewer photographers care about having a sensor the same size as ye old filmme that Grandpa used to use...

Maybe not. Maybe 18MP is just too many sensor sites to get on a 1.5x crop sensor, so the move to full-frame makes sense to keep the cost of the sensor and high-ISO sensitivity under control at that resolution - which is necessary to up the stakes in the megapixel race, esp. with medium-format digital prices coming down.

Trius

07-10-2007, 18:30

Is it a rangefinder? 18MP??? Who cares? It's not really about megapixels any more. Boring! ;)

Finder

07-10-2007, 18:43

I wouldn't have posted this if the guy wasn't credible. He used to be a major player in the technology business. I can well-believe he would have connections at Nikon. I prefer not to say any more to protect his identity. Take it for what it's worth. I just thought it was very interesting. I may have to put off buying that ZI film body now! :D

/T

Well, having worked in the camera manufacturing industry, he either has some lose mouth friends in Nikon (not likely as they all sign confidentiality argeements), or he has simply tapped into the rumour mill.

I don't know why you would want to protect his identity. He could have betrayed the trust placed in him by a Nikon employee if his claim is true. If it is not true, he is not credible anyway.

But I will go out on a limb and call it a hoax. If the release in really in September, the press release should be out now (or soon). Nikon should know by now if the camera is going into production and they are not going to benefit by surprizing us when the product hits the shelves. This is going to be a big investment and they need to get the sales.

igoesmyth

07-10-2007, 18:44

I was talking to a friend today. Well connected in the Nikon world from previous industry experience. He was telling me about a new high end Nikon coming this September. 18 megapixels, full frame 35mm sensor with no crop factor, backward compatible with lenses made for 1.5x crop factor. I love my D200. I guess I better start saving for this baby.

/T
I'll admit that Nikon needs to have this mystery camera in teh worst way but this post is misleading and wrong. I have been hearing about the D3 coming down the pike for the last 2 years and it is always a fantasy. 18 MP is fine but a full frame (24mmx36mm) sensor that will not vignette a DX lens is mathmatically and physically immpossible.

Nikon gets it's sensors from SONY.

Sony does not make a FF sensor.

So where would Nikon be getting it?? Kodak?

You won't have to worry about saving for soon as this is a fantasy.

david

IGMeanwell

07-10-2007, 19:02

I'll admit that Nikon needs to have this mystery camera in teh worst way but this post is misleading and wrong. I have been hearing about the D3 coming down the pike for the last 2 years and it is always a fantasy. 18 MP is fine but a full frame (24mmx36mm) sensor that will not vignette a DX lens is mathmatically and physically immpossible.

Nikon gets it's sensors from SONY.

Sony does not make a FF sensor.

So where would Nikon be getting it?? Kodak?

You won't have to worry about saving for soon as this is a fantasy.

david

Sony has mentioned that their first pro-camera will most likely feature a full frame or a 1.1x sensor

I have a feeling both Nikon and Sony's new cameras will be announced pretty close to each other, mostly likely will be using the same sensor

flatlander

07-10-2007, 19:24

Everyone makes way to big a deal about mega-pixel counts. I shoot with both the Canon 1Ds Mii and the Nikon D2Xs. I pick up the Nikon way more than the Canon. The camera is simply more responsive and ergonomically designed. Plus it's a little smaller (bodies and lenses) and has way better batteries. In comparing final images, the Nikon image quality is just as good. In fact, I think the images have a little more depth to them. The Canon images are a little plastic in comparison.

It's quickly getting to the point where a photographer can just pick his gear based on preference of features other than mega pixel - just like the old days.

I don't ever recall anyone thinking a point and shoot was better than an F3 just becasue the point and shoot was loaded with Kodachrome and the F3 with Plus X.

I will say, "Hey Nikon, how about some fast primes!"

Which reminds me, 18+ mega pixels is pointless anyway. No current Nikon or Canon lenses are good enough to take advantage of the resolution.

Sorry for the ranting....

Thardy

07-10-2007, 19:44

I'm impressed that it 's going to have a 35 mm full frame sensor which takes lenses made for crop cameras.

Chris101

07-10-2007, 20:01

With all due respect, this 'secret friend with inside connections' bit has been done to death.

NB23

07-10-2007, 20:35

With all due respect, this 'secret friend with inside connections' bit has been done to death.

Chris,

Beating to death, if not done with a stinking wet rotten sock, is not enough.

Tuolumne

07-10-2007, 20:36

You guys are a hoot. I frankly don't care whether you believe me or my friend. I'm just sharing what I know with you, which is what such sites are for. Take it for what it's worth. If you think about it, this product makes eminently good sense. A full frame sensor for improved S/N (that's what it's for - not sheer resolution) and backwards compatible with every lens Nikon has ever made. That is a winner. For those of you happy with 10 mp sensors - are you still runiing DOS on your 286's? Remember, sensor technoloy obey's Moore's law. As I've said before - we have no idea - NO IDEA - what cameras will look like or even be capable of in 5 years.

/T

MadMan2k

07-10-2007, 21:34

I'm thrilled with my 4mp sensor in my 6 year old camera, and I still run punch cards in my 3,000 square foot mainframe. It took me 6 hours to write this post.

gavinlg

07-10-2007, 22:21

Well I sure am interested, and thankyou for sharing this information with us.

I like nikons, but I used canon DSLRs at the moment. The canons are very good. I would love for nikon to come out with a 5d equivalent at the same price.... Zeiss primes here I come...

But really, I suspect they will be releasing the new pro spec camera this year, I really do. It is getting late in the game for them, canons destroying the professional level sales, and nikon know what they have to do. The fact is, theres nothing wrong with the crop sensor itself, but the inconveniences it causes are most annoying. I'm running an olympus eyepiece magnification accessory on my 30d because the viewfinder is pathetic. Like looking through a little tunnel. The d200 isn't much better either.

Also, I like using my 24mm lens or 28mm lens or 35mm lens for its intended use, not as a standard focal length on the crop sensor. That irritates the crap out of me.

full frame cameras can have larger photosite receptors, and therefor the quality of the image is much better. its like having a MF negative and a 35mm negative.

Sonys next PRO level Alpha camera will be using a full frame or near full frame sensor, nikons been using sony sensors here and there for a while, my r-d1 uses a sony sensor and I love it!

Do the math.

Harry Lime

07-10-2007, 23:39

18 MP is fine but a full frame (24mmx36mm) sensor that will not vignette a DX lens is mathmatically and physically immpossible.

DX would be supported in a high speed crop mode. You may get 10MP at something like 8ps. They are already doing this with the 2Dx, except the crop mode is x2

Nikon gets it's sensors from SONY.
Sony does not make a FF sensor.
So where would Nikon be getting it?? Kodak?
You won't have to worry about saving for soon as this is a fantasy.
david

How do you know what Sony has up their sleeve?

Everyone at the high-end is moving towards bigger sensors, as the megapixel count goes up. There really isn't much choice in this. You can't cram more than 12-13MP in to an APS size chip and still get good dynamic range and low noise. To a large extend image quality is dependent on the size of the individual receptor.

Personally I want to see everyone concentrate on expanding dynamic range and get out of the MP contest. Give me a DSLR with a chip that delivers a useable range of 12 stops or more at 12.8MP and I'll be giddy. Right now (with the exception of the FujiFilm S5 PRO) we are stuck at 8-9 stops.

Gid

07-11-2007, 00:36

I'm thrilled with my 4mp sensor in my 6 year old camera, and I still run punch cards in my 3,000 square foot mainframe. It took me 6 hours to write this post.

Sums it all up - just brilliant :)

Nikon Bob

07-11-2007, 02:56

Also, I like using my 24mm lens or 28mm lens or 35mm lens for its intended use, not as a standard focal length on the crop sensor. That irritates the crap out of me.

You can say that again. Personally I would Like to see a D300 with FF sensor so I can make full use of my old glass especially the wides. The D200 is getting old and the prices seem to be dropping. I wonder if that means anything?

Bob

ferider

07-11-2007, 03:02

It apparently has a switch that flips it back and forth from full-frame mode to 1.5x crop-factor mode. I assume that means it would have lower resolution in the 1.5x crop factor mode.

/T

Right. And not only does it crop the sensor-generated image, but also the
mirror and viewfinder with that switch.

Will it produce pictures similar in quality than MF ? :eek: :D

Ade-oh

07-14-2007, 02:26

I suppose an 18MP Nikon is interesting, in an 'academic' sort of way, but personally I won't be considering buying a 'D3' or whatever it's going to be called. Part of the reason the pro Nikons cost so much is because they're built like tanks: not so much to do with image quality at all. I think I will wait for whatever the upgraded 'equivalent' of the D80 is. I'm very happy with the image quality from my D200 now, and even that isprobably more camera than I really need.

rxmd

07-14-2007, 03:00

I think we need a Digital Rumour Mill subforum.

Socke

07-14-2007, 03:09

Socke

07-14-2007, 03:14

Chris,

Beating to death, if not done with a stinking wet rotten sock, is not enough.

Hey! Let me out of this, I'm a peacefull mind and don't take part in beatings :D

Socke

07-14-2007, 03:17

Remember, sensor technoloy obey's Moore's law.
/T

Moore's law is about getting more into less, i.E. smaller chips with more tranistors.
Making bigger chips is not covered by this.

Travis L.

07-14-2007, 03:49

I work in camera store (Nikon dealer) and my Nikon rep assures me that there will be TWO new DSLR's before the end of the year, one to be released very soon and the other in the fall. I believe we'll see a D200 replacement first followed by a D3 later on. Only time will tell

sepiareverb

07-14-2007, 06:06

Too late for me- Nikon dropped the ball with the first generation of DSLR's that wouldn't meter with Ai or AiS lenses. I couldn't justify a new camera AND new lenses. Leica and Zeiss have my business now.

Seems that if Nikon is to survive they'll have to admit that Canon was right to go full frame and continue what WAS great about the Nikon system- the nearly complete backward compatability of the F mount.

dazedgonebye

07-14-2007, 06:08

RFF right?
For a moment I thought I was at Fredmiranda.com

Ken Ford

07-14-2007, 06:11

Harry Lime

07-14-2007, 08:12

Moore's law is about getting more into less, i.E. smaller chips with more tranistors.
Making bigger chips is not covered by this.

Actually it's about speed, isn't it?

Olsen

07-14-2007, 08:20

These rumours seems trustworthy and believable. Now Canon's camera division is more than twice the size of Nikon's and close to ten times as profitable. It is not a matter of 'right or wrong' regarding sensor sizes; you simply sell what you have. What is best can be discussed; Canon has shown the world what is the most profitable.

Canon has a huge product development budget - far larger than Nikon's. Nikon is in no possition to develop their own sensor. That they will be applying a Sony sensor seems reasonable. That several D-SLR's will be launched with this sensor is likely, but they will all have a hard time winning back the close to 80% market share of Canon among pro's today.

It has been so quiet from the Nikon camp now, that if they don't launch something new they just might dissappear. And Full Frame is the only way forward. With Canon combing home close to 80% of the camera industry's profit there is no longer doubt about that.

Don't expect that this Nikon model (or the Sony equaliant) is going to be cheap. It's for the pro's. A cheaper model might come later. What will Canon do? A new 1Ds III is expected. A Canon camera with 21 mill. pixels was tested at the Olympic Games in Athens, two years ago. So they have some thing up their sleave too.

Socke

07-14-2007, 08:49

Actually it's about speed, isn't it?

No, Moore's Law is about the number of components on a chip which can be produced for a given amount of money.

This sums it up quite well, or better, this fits my understanding :)

Moore's law is not about just the density of transistors that can be achieved, but about the density of transistors at which the cost per transistor is the lowest[1]. As more transistors are made on a chip the cost to make each transistor reduces but the chance that the chip will not work due to a defect rises. If the rising cost of discarded non working chips is balanced against the reducing cost per transistor of larger chips, then as Moore observed in 1965 there is a number of transistors or complexity at which "a minimum cost" is achieved. He further observed that as transistors were made smaller through advances in photolithography this number would increase "a rate of roughly a factor of two per year".[1]
From Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moores_law

Dingo

07-14-2007, 08:53

I just bought two fast fixed focal length lenses for my D200, both are compatible to full frame cameras, it will be great if a full frame digital Nikon is coming, it can prove my investment is correct.

xabi

07-14-2007, 09:03

I don't like the current situation (canon dominating the market), too, and I hope Nikon and Sony will come up with something interesting.

Nikon Bob

07-14-2007, 09:38

Huh? The first generation of Nikon DSLRs *are* compatible with AI and AIS glass including metering. I use mostly MF Nikkors on my D1.

Their pro cameras were compatible but not their consumer ones until the D200 appeared. They really dropped the ball there and it maybe too late to pick it up again.

Bob

Tuolumne

07-14-2007, 18:33

gavinlg

07-14-2007, 18:45

And what does all of this mean for the Leica M8? If Nikon and Canon come out with cameras that knock the pants off the quality of current digital cameras, does that make the M8 obsolete less than a year after its release?

/T

On that note, no, the m8 would not be obsolete because it's completely different to an SLR....
Also, I doubt that canon could bring anything out not that could "knock the pants off the quality of current digitals"... I think they've reached a bit of a plateau, where the technology advancements that have a direct contribution to image quality will be much less drastic as time progresses than in previous years... The 1dmkIII is a good camera, but really, besides the iso 6400 thing and the slightly better noise control, none of us would be able to tell between a picture taken between the mkII and the mkIII at the same settings with the same lens...

Although I was thinking last night on a long drive - How great would it be if canon released a full frame digital rangefinder.... Just imagine - the canon 7sD with the full frame 12.3mp sensor from the 5d, in a classic all metal body with m mount capabilities and a new smallish line of canon L m mount primes. I bet they'd sell a lot of 24 1.4 L's!!!

That rangefinder IMO would make the m8 obsolete.

jlw

07-14-2007, 19:19

Although I was thinking last night on a long drive - How great would it be if canon released a full frame digital rangefinder.... Just imagine - the canon 7sD with the full frame 12.3mp sensor from the 5d, in a classic all metal body with m mount capabilities and a new smallish line of canon L m mount primes. I bet they'd sell a lot of 24 1.4 L's!!!

Many moons ago on RFF I proposed that to make rangefinder cameras really viable again beyond their current loyal niche (which includes myself, of course) the M-mount "standard" would have to be discarded, in favor of a mount shared with some existing brand of DSLR camera.

Getting rid of the M-mount, with its short back focus, would immediately solve the vignetting and rim-ray problems that have forced M8 users into compromise solutions including IR-cut filters and software vignetting correction.

Then the only remaining problem would be the necessarily high cost of the precision-machined optical components and hand-cut coupling cams needed to make an interchangeable-lens RF camera work at high accuracy. I postulated that this problem could be solved the same way it has elsewhere in camera design: substitute electronics for mechanics.

I theorized that an RF optical system actuated by a precision stepper motor, controlled by a digital distance encoder in the lens, could achieve just as much accuracy and usability as a mechanically coupled RF, while making the system usable with a much wider range of lenses. (LCD framelines or a real-image zoom viewfinder system would handle the varying fields of view.)

I proposed that the only company with the technical know-how and marketing clout to make this happen would be Canon. They've already got the high-performance 24x36 sensor that the photo-nostalgists demand, they've got an all-electronic lensmount, and they've got a big enough user base to make a "niche" model viable. All they'd really need to do to make the idea work would be to add high-precision distance encoders to the lenses that would appeal to RF users (24/1.4? 35/1.4? 50/1.2? 85/1.2?) And the really cool thing would be that these lenses would still be fully usable on Canon SLRs.

I figured that serious Canon shooters who already have a big investment in DSLR bodies and lenses wouldn't hesitate to add a specialized RF body to facilitate work in the areas in which an RF camera excels: low-light documentary shooting, stage and theater work, street photography, etc.

Did other RFFers get excited by this fantasy? No, basically I got flayed alive for suggesting that it might be worth trading off the RF camera's traditional compact size, classical form, and multi-vendor lens compatibility in order to get better technology, higher performance and more flexibility.

I'm sure the major manufacturers have already learned by market research what I found out the hard way, so I doubt if we'll ever see a high-volume manufacturer develop a genuinely modern digital RF camera -- even though technically it would be perfectly feasible to do so.

Gabriel M.A.

07-14-2007, 19:37

And what does all of this mean for the Leica M8? If Nikon and Canon come out with cameras that knock the pants off the quality of current digital cameras, does that make the M8 obsolete less than a year after its release?
There are lots of languages spoken in the world that are not English. I don't think they make English obsolete, nor the other way around. They're different.

jarski

07-14-2007, 19:50

Nikon has made such a big investment (financial and psychological) in its DX format and lenses that I just can't believe they'd change course now and revert to a 24x36mm-format sensor.

It would be like admitting that Canon was right and they were wrong, and also, as time goes by, fewer and fewer photographers care about having a sensor the same size as ye old filmme that Grandpa used to use...

if the rest of the world is not going on your way, you can keep on swimming against the current or change the course.
fire the manager who married his name with DX, and act like nothing ever happened. thats what Microsoft has done for years :D

Matthew Allen

07-15-2007, 07:39

Did other RFFers get excited by this fantasy? No, basically I got flayed alive for suggesting that it might be worth trading off the RF camera's traditional compact size, classical form, and multi-vendor lens compatibility in order to get better technology, higher performance and more flexibility.

Once you trade off all of those factors, what are you left with? A focusing system? Big whoop. No large manufacturer would do this when AF systems are getting better and better and there's no real market pressure to develop modern MF cameras.

As you obviously realise, if you build a RF for SLR lenses, then the dimensions will be that of an SLR, just without a RF instead of a mirror mechanism. Who would buy this (probably expensive) niche camera whose only advantage is better manual focus? Since it would be almost as big as an SLR (no prism housing) and it would look like one, it would fail. Bear in mind that it wouldn't have the raw sex appeal or the ancestry that the M8 trades upon.

Matthew

jlw

07-15-2007, 12:15

Once you trade off all of those factors, what are you left with? A focusing system? Big whoop. No large manufacturer would do this when AF systems are getting better and better and there's no real market pressure to develop modern MF cameras.

That was another thing I learned from the lambasting I got from my original post. I use rangefinder cameras primarily because of the rangefinder. The absence of mirror blackout, the ability to see outside the frame boundaries, and positive manual focus even with very dim light and/or overlapping subject planes are critically important in the kinds of photography I do. A combined range/viewfinder is still the best instrument ever devised for sighting and focusing a camera under these types of conditions.

What I was surprised to learn from the reaction to my original post was that most "rangefinder" photographers actually care very little about the benefits of rangefinder focusing and viewing. What attracts them to rangefinder cameras is compact size, or all-mechanical feel, or old-timey craftsmanship, or whatever. As for the rangefinder itself, their reaction is, as you say, "Big woop."

For me, if some manufacturer introduced an autofocus DSLR that was as compact and solid and had the same tactile qualities and visual elegance and so forth as, say, a Leica M3... well, I still wouldn't be interested in the thing, because SLR focusing and viewing just don't work as well for me as rangefinder focusing and viewing.

But I was surprised to find that this is a minority viewpoint here on RFF. It seems that many of our members are actually frustrated SLR users, who would actually rather be using a flippy-mirror camera if only they could get one as small and as pretty and as nice-feeling as their favorite RF.

Weird, but as you say, the manufacturers probably have already figured this out.

(I have to say, though, that in view of the fact that our ranks include Mamiya 6/7 users, Fuji GX690 users, and even Speed Graphic users, that small size must rank as a "big woop" feature to at least some rangefinder-using photographers...)

Peter55

07-15-2007, 13:11

Well last year I was also predicting a Canon Digital Rangefinder. I believe they will make them. Why? To keep expanding their market growth. As DSLR's sales level off the DRangefinder would allow for continued 35mm growth. New lenses as well. New markets. More money and prestiege.
I also said another reason why they will make a DRangefinder is that eventually a high up Canon person will want one to use. After they have used the RD-1 and M8 they will come to the conclusion that DRangefinder cameras are very nice and now they will want their own Canon model.
Remember the Nipponese love photography and they really do lead the world in camera inovation and electonics. Canon's DRangefinder will be much better than Leicas. Also much more affordable.

It will say "CANON KWANON No. 1 in the World" right on the camera. It will be made in their New Factory in Kanagwa near Tokyo. I will buy one with several lenses.

Socke

07-15-2007, 13:42

What I was surprised to learn from the reaction to my original post was that most "rangefinder" photographers actually care very little about the benefits of rangefinder focusing and viewing. What attracts them to rangefinder cameras is compact size, or all-mechanical feel, or old-timey craftsmanship, or whatever. As for the rangefinder itself, their reaction is, as you say, "Big woop."

Yes and no, the viewfinder is fine, the size with lenses is great! For what I do, f8 and zone focus is ok. Since I like 35 and 28mm, even seeing outside of the frame is not an option.

Matthew Allen

07-15-2007, 15:24

That was another thing I learned from the lambasting I got from my original post. I use rangefinder cameras primarily because of the rangefinder. The absence of mirror blackout, the ability to see outside the frame boundaries, and positive manual focus even with very dim light and/or overlapping subject planes are critically important in the kinds of photography I do. A combined range/viewfinder is still the best instrument ever devised for sighting and focusing a camera under these types of conditions.

What I was surprised to learn from the reaction to my original post was that most "rangefinder" photographers actually care very little about the benefits of rangefinder focusing and viewing. What attracts them to rangefinder cameras is compact size, or all-mechanical feel, or old-timey craftsmanship, or whatever. As for the rangefinder itself, their reaction is, as you say, "Big woop."

For me, if some manufacturer introduced an autofocus DSLR that was as compact and solid and had the same tactile qualities and visual elegance and so forth as, say, a Leica M3... well, I still wouldn't be interested in the thing, because SLR focusing and viewing just don't work as well for me as rangefinder focusing and viewing.

But I was surprised to find that this is a minority viewpoint here on RFF. It seems that many of our members are actually frustrated SLR users, who would actually rather be using a flippy-mirror camera if only they could get one as small and as pretty and as nice-feeling as their favorite RF.

Weird, but as you say, the manufacturers probably have already figured this out.

(I have to say, though, that in view of the fact that our ranks include Mamiya 6/7 users, Fuji GX690 users, and even Speed Graphic users, that small size must rank as a "big woop" feature to at least some rangefinder-using photographers...)

I think I came across as excessively negative about RFs. My "big whoop" comment was supposed to be an expression of the market's reaction to the camera you propose, rather than necessarily my own. Personally I think most formats have their place, but products with specialist interest have to establish their own niche or they sink without trace. Leica seem to have done remarkably well in selling their digital RF, but their product is packaged as the continuation of a century or so of camera development. A completely new RF design based on an SLR system would lack this advantage.

Matthew

NIKON KIU

07-15-2007, 18:55

Well, having worked in the camera manufacturing industry, he either has some lose mouth friends in Nikon (not likely as they all sign confidentiality argeements), or he has simply tapped into the rumour mill.

I don't know why you would want to protect his identity. He could have betrayed the trust placed in him by a Nikon employee if his claim is true. If it is not true, he is not credible anyway.

But I will go out on a limb and call it a hoax. If the release in really in September, the press release should be out now (or soon). Nikon should know by now if the camera is going into production and they are not going to benefit by surprizing us when the product hits the shelves. This is going to be a big investment and they need to get the sales.
Finder,

This sounds a lot like the many many comments you had on the M8 debut!
Hey, let the man spread some rumors,it's about time Nikon updated the D2 and Full frame is the logical next step for them.
Manufacturers seem to be letting loose some rumors on upcoming stuff themselves, the latest advertising tactic?

I say Nikon will keep the camera under $5000 and Kick some Canon butt!

Kiu

anselwannab

07-15-2007, 20:51

Humm, RD-2 with this new sensor?

Hasn't this FF nikon been vapor/rumor ware for like two years now?

Someone said d200 prices are down. It would really be a kick in crotch if Canon gets lapped again with the 30D (20D mk II) still out there.

I still love my 20D and scanning film out of my CL is ok.

Maybe more interesting is the comment on DPreview that Canon is expanding CMOS sensor prodcution for P&S cameras. Maybe a decent APS-c P&S is in the works.

By the way, Nikon doesn't have much invested in DX lenses, their customers do.

Mark

jan normandale

07-15-2007, 22:02

I can hardly wait! .... j/k/h

Dr. Strangelove

07-15-2007, 23:13

Moore's law is about getting more into less, i.E. smaller chips with more tranistors.
Making bigger chips is not covered by this.
Quite right. It is certainly possible to cram more pixels into a smaller sensor, but it does not make sense from image quality point of view. There are now 12 MP P&S digicams, but their image quality as a whole is not superior to their 6-7 MP predecessors, even if they have a higher resolution. So, in fact Moore's law has very little to do with image sensors.

People also often forget that having a significantly higher resolution requires more than two time the megapixels. Twice the megapixels only gives you about 40% more linear resolution, which is really not that much ,especially after you go beyond certain limits. Therefore, for most purposes a 12 MP digital camera does not even have a 40% better image quality than a 6 MP camera, even if it has no more noise and the same dynamic range.

Dr. Strangelove

07-16-2007, 00:02

Canon has a huge product development budget - far larger than Nikon's. Nikon is in no possition to develop their own sensor. That they will be applying a Sony sensor seems reasonable. That several D-SLR's will be launched with this sensor is likely, but they will all have a hard time winning back the close to 80% market share of Canon among pro's today.

It has been so quiet from the Nikon camp now, that if they don't launch something new they just might dissappear. And Full Frame is the only way forward. With Canon combing home close to 80% of the camera industry's profit there is no longer doubt about that.
A huge part of Canon's success comes from the fact that they are a very significant factor in the high volume P&S business, whereas Nikon's P&S market share is about the same size as Olympus' and way behind Canon and Sony. Recently even Samsung as been overtaking Nikon in that sector. Canon was much bigger than Nikon even in the 'film age', so that is really not anything new. Even then the main reasons were Canon's big P&S business and the fact that Canon's SLRs have always been very popular among tech enthusiast amateurs, which is also a a significant segment of the camera market.

Now, I do agree that the Canon's FF sensor cameras probably have taken some market share from Nikon among the pros. How much really is difficult to say and the market shares between the two have always varied in any case. Before the Canon EOS Nikon owned the pro press photograper market, which is by far the most important pro camera market segment. EOS-1 changed all that, but Nikon did not 'disappear' and was able to take some back with the D1 and D2, since Canon's digital offerings were two years late in that segment.

So, does Nikon really need FF sensor camera? The answer both yes and no. The D40(x), the D80 and the D200 have been quite successful, so Nikon does not have any immediate problems with its overall DSRL market share. However, if they do not provide a FF sensor camera or an equivalent quality DX sensor camera the non-press photographer pro market will continue to slide towards Canon.

Still, I believe Nikon's biggest immediate concern is to counter the 1D Mark III in the press and sports photographer market segment, not the Full Frame 1Ds Mark II and the D5. It is also possible the Nikon's (or rather Sony's) answer to the Canon FF cameras may not be a FF camera but a DX sensor that can effectively rival with Canon's FF sensors. It should not be theoretically impossible and there are lots of room for improvement in the APS-C sensor class for both lower noise and better dynamic range. Sony knows that they need to develop lower noise sensors and have most likely been working hard on that. And Sony does have huge R&D budget, even if Nikon does not. Some more pixels too perhaps, but in the difference between 12 MP and 18 MP is only 22% in linear resolution, which is hardly worth mentioning. And by now the pros should know that.

Nachkebia

07-16-2007, 00:11

full frame 18 megapixel nikon? are we in some kind of japanese digital heaven? :D if it is true I am ordering it :)

Never Satisfied

07-16-2007, 00:42

Dr. Strangelove

07-16-2007, 04:07

Hi all, I'm exicted if there is even a shred of thruth about this rumer. As has been said a few times that Sony make the chips for Nikon, if Nikon gets full frame then undoubtedly I will get a full frame sensor for my evil Minolta SLR lenses:) Cheers Andrew. Well, there are other sensor providers besides Sony, so theoretically Nikon might decide to get their FF sensors elsewhere. At least Kodak has the capacity to manufacture FF sensors. Fujifilm probably could make one too, if they really wanted, although it would probably of the Super-CCD type and have a relatively low true resolution (but excellent dynamic range).

If Sony has a FF sensor in the works, then Nikon will mostly likely use that, but there is still no real evidence that Sony has one anywhere near production stage.
And if one believed the rumours, the first Nikon FF DSLR should have been released more than a year ago...

keithwms

07-16-2007, 07:00

Let's see.

if the camera is FF but is still able to use the DX lenses, that would obviously be possible only in some sort of 1.5x crop mode.

So if crop mode means the usual 1.5x factor, and if the FF sensor is truly 18mp, then it looks like the full frame image size will be roughly 5200x3450 pixels. That would enable ~12.4 mp capture in 1.5x crop mode, and ~18mp capture in FF mode. If I did the math right. And that would indeed appeal to current D2x users as well as reluctant filmies such as myself.

Could be nice, although I fear that Nikon has left us Nikon FF users twisting in the wind for too long to make much of a splash: most Nikon FF users have already moved over to the Canon camp.

Based on Nikon's marketing strategy as revealed through their recent releases, I guess I'd expect a very cheapified version of the D2x to appear before long! I'm not knocking the d40x though, I admit that thing is pretty fun for travel.

NIKON KIU

07-16-2007, 11:05

Well, there are other sensor providers besides Sony, so theoretically Nikon might decide to get their FF sensors elsewhere. At least Kodak has the capacity to manufacture FF sensors. Fujifilm probably could make one too, if they really wanted, although it would probably of the Super-CCD type and have a relatively low true resolution (but excellent dynamic range).

If Sony has a FF sensor in the works, then Nikon will mostly likely use that, but there is still no real evidence that Sony has one anywhere near production stage.
And if one believed the rumours, the first Nikon FF DSLR should have been released more than a year ago...

Nikon has been using SONY sensors for a loooooong time...

Folks this is true, it's all over http://www.nikonians.org/ too(how do you like that for spreading rumors?).

Kiu

einolu

07-16-2007, 11:49

For me, if some manufacturer introduced an autofocus DSLR that was as compact and solid and had the same tactile qualities and visual elegance and so forth as, say, a Leica M3... well, I still wouldn't be interested in the thing, because SLR focusing and viewing just don't work as well for me as rangefinder focusing and viewing.

Yup, thats why I like the Mamiya 7 over any Hassalblad or clones. I feel more certain about focusing with a rangefinder. Focusing screens give me a headache because I can't notice the tiny changes in sharpness from focusing manually. I don't think many people can because thats just not how the eyes work, which is probably why AF SLRs are such a big hit, heh.

Now when will we have a digital medium format rangefinder...

GeneW

07-16-2007, 18:13

pvdhaar

07-16-2007, 23:19

I've been itching for a D200 for some time now, but may hold off until this fall to watch for new developments. By DSLR standards the D200 is a bit long in the tooth. Two things I'd like to see in a D300 would be better sensor quality at higher iso and some form of sensor dust removal, a la Olympus, Pentax, and Canon.

Gene
The D200 may appear long in the tooth to some, but the prices over here aren't dropping yet, which is most often a sure sign that stock is cleared. Prices that I do see dropping are on the D80; something that I initially found extraordinary as it's so recent.

But thinking it over, it's not very dissimmilar to how things went when the D70 was introduced. The D100 remained available very long after the D70 hit the streets. In fact you could buy the D100 till somewhere around the time the D70s/D50 came out.

rxmd

07-16-2007, 23:35

I've been itching for a D200 for some time now, but may hold off until this fall to watch for new developments. By DSLR standards the D200 is a bit long in the tooth.
People are still buying it, prices are still high, so from a manufacturer's viewpoint it's not long in the tooth. If a camera model that's 19 months old appears long in the tooth to some, it means that some users are really subscribing to the today's-model-is-bad-because-tomorrow's-model-will-be-better meme.
Maybe it's because Canon has this marketing approach of incremental minor camera revisions that make it appear like there's a lot of progress going on because camera model numbers keep increasing, but I don't know anyone who actually was eager to sell his 400D for a 450D (except version number junkies who also updated from Windows XP to Vista as soon as it came out). The D200 is an excellent camera (and I'm not a Nikonian).

Two things I'd like to see in a D300 would be [...] and some form of sensor dust removal, a la Olympus, Pentax, and Canon.
From practically all users of the new DLSR generation around me I hear that sensor dust removal by shaking it a little bit appears to be rather useless and mainly a marketing gag. Nikon will probably put it in regardless, just for marketing reasons. The Olympus E-1 appears to be the only camera where sensor dust removal actually does something.

Philipp

Dr. Strangelove

07-17-2007, 00:42

People are still buying it, prices are still high, so from a manufacturer's viewpoint it's not long in the tooth. If a camera model that's 19 months old appears long in the tooth to some, it means that some users are really subscribing to the today's-model-is-bad-because-tomorrow's-model-will-be-better meme.
Maybe it's because Canon has this marketing approach of incremental minor camera revisions that make it appear like there's a lot of progress going on because camera model numbers keep increasing,
Philipp
I agree. The "DSLR standards" are also changing and the very rapid advancements of the early 2000's are over. From now on it will only be minor improvements in most categories. For marketing reasons they will still appear a bit more often than during the film age, since digital has been a great way for camera manufacturers to sell tech enthusiasts, pros and rich amateurs a new camera almost every year and they want to keep that going as long as possible.

However, we are already at the point where new DSLRs only provide mostly potential and in practice seldom needed improvements. There are a lot of people out there still using their 20D(a) and D70(s) cameras and producing as good images for most real life purposes as the people with newer 30D and D80 cameras. The 350D vs 400D is even better example. In fact the only really useful new improvements after the introduction of the Canon 1Ds Mark II and 5D have been brought by the Fijifilm FinePix S5 Pro, which finally introduces a (nearly) no compromise digital alternative (notice: not "replacement" like the digipundits would say) to portrait negative film.

So, if the Nikon & Sony FF sensor camera rumor is true, it will probably be the last really major, no marketing BS improvement for the rest of this decade and even that would only be a major advancement for Nikon and Minolta/Sony users, since Canon already has FF DSLRs.

IGMeanwell

07-17-2007, 01:32

I have to imagine there is still room to grow

Especially in the department of dynamic range...

Honestly the major improvement I would like to see for all DSLRs is viewfinder size, the D80 viewfinder is great but everytime I go from that to my Minolta X-370 its like going from a 27 inch TV to a 60 inch wide screen

Also I think there are certain things left unexplored

for instance, Kodak is developing sensors based on the new pixel patterns... so who knows there might be a whole generation of non-bayer pattern sensors on their way

We have yet to see what that pattern can achieve

I can't believe that CMOS, APS-C, Foveon and Super CCD sensors are the end all be all of digital advancement.

pvdhaar

07-17-2007, 01:41

So, if the Nikon & Sony FF sensor camera rumor is true, it will probably be the last really major, no marketing BS improvement for the rest of this decade...
There are other things that still plague DSLRs, and that would present a breakthrough.

Limited dynamic range is the most obvious of them, although I must admit that Fuji is showing that it attempts to do something about it with the S5.

Didier

07-17-2007, 02:27

I was talking to a friend today. Well connected in the Nikon world from previous industry experience. He was telling me about a new high end Nikon coming this September. 18 megapixels, full frame 35mm sensor with no crop factor, backward compatible with lenses made for 1.5x crop factor. I love my D200. I guess I better start saving for this baby. /T

Sounds like the usual rumour- and vapourware which begins with "have been told" and "by well infomed sources" - leading to useless discussions as if such a camera would already exist. On Nikon forums like Nikonians.org, where there are at least 20'000 "well informed sources", they talk about it as one of many rumours around Nikon's new flagship. Most rumours talk about 1.1x crop and 16MP, now your "well informed friend" comes with 18MP/fullframe. He must be member of Nikon's executive board I guess.

When Nikon will communicate the specs of their flagship I'll likely participate in the discussions around it. It will be even more interesting to discuss it when the camera is available and tested (with Nikon that can take 6-9 months after the announcement, remember D200). But otherwise I'm slightly rid of "well informed sources" stuff.

Didier

Dr. Strangelove

07-17-2007, 03:00

I have to imagine there is still room to grow

Especially in the department of dynamic range...

I can't believe that CMOS, APS-C, Foveon and Super CCD sensors are the end all be all of digital advancement.
There will be improvements in DR and other areas as well, but for the most part they will not be drastic and will not provide a huce incentive to buy a new camera every new generation. Of course when years go by the improvements accumulate and a DSLR in year 2015 will certainly be a whole lot better than the current ones.

What I meant was that the rate of improvement will not be as great as it used to be, and will slowly start to approach the more pedestrian rate of improvement familiar from film cameras and film emulsion technology. For example, if you take a film or SLR camera from year 1985 and compare them to SLR cameras and films from year 2000, the latter will certainly be much better in most respects, but on the other you may not need all the features of the later camera.

adonf

07-17-2007, 03:10

So if crop mode means the usual 1.5x factor, and if the FF sensor is truly 18mp, then it looks like the full frame image size will be roughly 5200x3450 pixels. That would enable ~12.4 mp capture in 1.5x crop mode, and ~18mp capture in FF mode. If I did the math right.

But you did it wrong :p

5200/1.5x3450/1.5 = 8 mp only

IGMeanwell

07-17-2007, 03:23

Take a look at this press release

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0707/07071701sonycmosinvestment.asp

Well I would say that this is pointing to Sony most likely putting a CMOS sensor in their professional camera for this fall

Their not making all those sensors only for canon

edit: Before someone points out the obvious, yes it states compact in there, but with Canon moving to start producing their own CMOS chips (just announced yesterday), I believe this just re-affirms that Sony is looking to have a 35mm sized sensor in their new pro-camera and with that much money involved possibly Nikon is on board

Finder

07-17-2007, 04:22

I read the press release. No mention of 35mm sensors. Maybe they will just make better APS-C size sensors. The problem with reading between the lines is there is nothing there.

Dr. Strangelove

07-17-2007, 06:31

I read the press release. No mention of 35mm sensors. Maybe they will just make better APS-C size sensors. The problem with reading between the lines is there is nothing there.
Quite right. We can be fairly sure that Sony wants to make better APS-C size sensors and very likely CMOS sensors for compact digicams as well. Still no confirmation to the FF sensor rumors, however. They are certainly a possibility, but I would not bet my life on that.

NIKON KIU

07-17-2007, 07:16

What is next for Nikon?
They got their consumer line updated(a bunch of coolpix + D40 & D40x), their Pro line has'nt been touched for over a year...

I shall revisit this thread in about a month :p

Kiu

Tuolumne

07-17-2007, 08:13

"He must be member of Nikon's executive board I guess."

Maybe he is. :D

/T

NIKON KIU

08-23-2007, 07:26

Ahaaaaaa!

http://press.nikonusa.com/2007/08/eight_years_after_changing_pro.php

Ready for a D3x?

Kiu

Turtle

08-23-2007, 07:42

This is why I shoot film.

Ahhhh, now for a tough decision, shall I use TriX or HP5+? I just cannot get excited about digital, even when it is the right tool for the job. Its like getting excited about laptops. We'll see what happens when it happens. In the meantime I will have to figure out where my new darkroom sink is going to go....:)

ddimaria

08-23-2007, 07:42

Toulumne, If I had started this thread I couldn't resist an "I told you so!" right about now.

Tuolumne

08-23-2007, 08:10

Why? Did I miss something?

/T

ddimaria

08-23-2007, 08:21

"Nikon has made such a big investment (financial and psychological) in its DX format and lenses that I just can't believe they'd change course now and revert to a 24x36mm-format sensor."

"But I will go out on a limb and call it a hoax. If the release in really in September, the press release should be out now (or soon). Nikon should know by now if the camera is going into production and they are not going to benefit by surprizing us when the product hits the shelves. This is going to be a big investment and they need to get the sales."

"With all due respect, this 'secret friend with inside connections' bit has been done to death."

"Hasn't this FF nikon been vapor/rumor ware for like two years now?"

"Sounds like the usual rumour- and vapourware which begins with "have been told" and "by well infomed sources" - leading to useless discussions as if such a camera would already exist. On Nikon forums like Nikonians.org, where there are at least 20'000 "well informed sources", they talk about it as one of many rumours around Nikon's new flagship. Most rumours talk about 1.1x crop and 16MP, now your "well informed friend" comes with 18MP/fullframe. He must be member of Nikon's executive board I guess."

Tuolumne

08-23-2007, 08:35

LoL. Thanks ddimaria. Ok people: "Nyah Nyah Nayh - I told you so!" :cool::cool::cool:

/T

colinh

08-23-2007, 13:33

The well-informed source doesn't think there's a difference between 12 and 18 Mpixel?

:)

colin

ddimaria

08-23-2007, 13:39

The well-informed source doesn't think there's a difference between 12 and 18 Mpixel?

:)

colin

I'll take my shadenfrauder over your sour grapes any day! ;)

Tuolumne

08-23-2007, 13:39

Where did those other 6 MP go?

/T

NIKON KIU

08-23-2007, 14:33

At the risk of being rude I shall repeat myself....Ready for the D3x?

Kiu

Tuolumne

08-23-2007, 15:13

I am Ready!

/T

erikhaugsby

08-23-2007, 15:18

Wait-Nikon just put out the D3 and you're already waiting for its upgrade?

Tuolumne

08-23-2007, 15:19

Am I getting ahead of myself? :-)

/Ira

Gabriel M.A.

08-23-2007, 16:08

Ahaaaaaa!

http://press.nikonusa.com/2007/08/eight_years_after_changing_pro.php

Ready for a D3x?
Kiu
I already have a true full-frame Canon 5D. I am disappointed by Nikon's use of a CMOS sensor. This one I'll wait out and check the test images out.

I have been waiting for Nikon to reverse its stand on the condescending grip of crop factors. Even if I don't like many of its lenses, there is still a number which make Canon's blush, and a few that are truly spectacular (i.e. 105mm f/2.5, 85mm f/2 and the underestimated 50mm f/1.8). Their current image quality blows Canon away, even if Canon blows Nikon away in the high-ISO department.

It is incredibly hard to take these Internet "I have a friend who knows something" rumours.

And no, nobody "told us so". What about the claim of being able to use DX lenses? I don't see that anywhere. The case of the missing 6 MP is "well-connected" mootness.

So, this rangefinder...looks like an SLR to me ;)

NIKON KIU

08-23-2007, 19:05

Wait-Nikon just put out the D3 and you're already waiting for its upgrade?
Well you know :o I am still stuck with a D1 that I don't use too much...
One can wish,right? I was trying to explain the missing 6 Megas ;)

Kiu

PS: this is an internet forum---do not take too seriously.

fgb2

08-23-2007, 20:02

>What about the claim of being able to use DX lenses? I don't see that anywhere.

Looks like the camera just defaults to a DX crop if it recognizes a DX lens mounted. From the Nikon D3 press release: "When used with DX Nikkor lenses, the D3 automatically switches to the DX-format mode that uses a cropped portion of the sensor to generate 5.1 megapixel resolution images."

Tuolumne

08-23-2007, 20:09

"The case of the missing 6 MP is "well-connected" mootness."

Keep your shirt on. It's coming in early '08.

/T

Thardy

08-23-2007, 20:46

Isn't Canon coming out with a high end FF dslr with 21 megapixels in a couple of months?

erikhaugsby

08-23-2007, 20:52

Isn't Canon coming out with a high end FF dslr with 21 megapixels in a couple of months?
Pardon? They just did that two or three days ago.
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0708/07082009canoneos1dsmarkiii.asp

IGMeanwell

08-23-2007, 21:29

Pardon? They just did that two or three days ago.
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0708/07082009canoneos1dsmarkiii.asp

He was just pointing out that Canon's releasing a higher MP camera

which as previously mentioned aimed at the Hasselblad H series and Mamiya

but I have no clue why this thread is still going as the D3 has already been released as a replacement for the D2H

then later next year Nikon is rumored to release a flagship model maxing out this new FX sensor; which at this point no one has any information on its potential or where they are going beyond the D3

as mentioned before the D3 is aimed at PJs, Wedding pros, and sports shooters

RObert Budding

08-24-2007, 05:57

Below is a table I calculated showing how large a print @ 300dpi can be printed for each sensor resolution without interpolation, assuming a 2:3 aspect ratio:

Sensor Dims (pixels) Print @ 300 DPI
Sensor MP W L W L
6 2,000 3,000 6.67 10.00
8 2,309 3,464 7.70 11.55
12 2,828 4,243 9.43 14.14
18 3,464 5,196 11.55 17.32
21 3,742 5,612 12.47 18.71

So a 12MP chip will print to about 9x14 without interpolation. Going to 21 MP gets you a 12x18 at the same print resolution.

Sorry, I can't get the table to format as I'd like. Columns are:

1. Sensor resolution
2. Sensor width in pixels
3. Sensor length in pixels
4. Print width @ 300dpi in inches
5. Print length @ 300dpi in inches

xayraa33

08-24-2007, 12:34

the full frame Nikon DSLR.

http://www.infosyncworld.com/news/n/8215.html

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0708/07082312nikond3.asp

Thardy

08-24-2007, 13:10

Pardon? They just did that two or three days ago.
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0708/07082009canoneos1dsmarkiii.asp

Canon USA website said available in Nov. 2007.

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=139&modelid=15710

Maybe it's out already in Europe or UK?

Imagine the choices we'll have in a couple of years!

xayraa33

08-24-2007, 13:39

with Canon and Nikon both having a FF DSLR, it will be like the Canon F1 versus the Nikon F2 again.

NIKON KIU

08-24-2007, 14:17

What's a few megapixels amongst friends?

Who prints 12x18s??

Kiu

Ade-oh

08-24-2007, 14:36

He was just pointing out that Canon's releasing a higher MP camera

which as previously mentioned aimed at the Hasselblad H series and Mamiya

but I have no clue why this thread is still going as the D3 has already been released as a replacement for the D2H

then later next year Nikon is rumored to release a flagship model maxing out this new FX sensor; which at this point no one has any information on its potential or where they are going beyond the D3

as mentioned before the D3 is aimed at PJs, Wedding pros, and sports shooters

None of which will make any practical differences to the images we see. Big deal: spend your money how you want.