View Full Version : 4x5-Field vs. Monorail
OK, slightly off topic. Moderators: Move if required.
What I think I really want is a field camera. However, I have an opportunity to buy from an individual with inspection before purchase. Here is the brief description:
The 4x5 is a Toyo View on a rail, with a Rodenstock 210mm 1:5.6 len, a ton of film holders, dark cloth, big ol' case and I might part with the tripod as well. Let me know what you would pay for it.
How hard is it to pack a monorail camera as opposed to a field camera way back in the woods? I assume the Rodenstock lens is very acceptable. What would a fair price be for the camera & lens? I'll add to that for whatever I think the accesories are worth.
Thanks for your help!
You get a lot more movements, but you have to carry around the actual rail with you, plus mounting the whole thing together when you move.
Wait for a field camera, IMO.
allan
bmattock
06-27-2007, 11:07
A box for a monorail 4x5 camera looks like you could put Jimmy Hoffa in it. Mushed up a bit, but still.
A field camera can be small enough to put in a backpack - even a pocket, if you're Andre the Giant.
Field cameras and monorails both have infinity focus - great for outdoor shots. Monorails have lots and lots of funky movements - great for product shots, studio this and that, and architecture shots.
I have purchased not one but two Speed Graphics - disassembled both with the best of intentions, and reduced them to a box o' parts. Will start again at some point. They're great cameras.
To packback the monorail, you would have to basically disassemble the standards from the rail. I'm not sure how easy this is. Add to that the weight, probably around 8 lbs just for the camera. My Tachihara takes about 2 minutes to set up and weighs 3.5 lbs.
I first got into 4x5 with a Calumet 400 monorail. Almost impossible to use at more than 100 yards from your car. Next tried a Busch Pressman. Nice camera but limited in using a wide angle lens. Now have the Tachihara. Probably could be better but it would cost 2-3X the price to find out. So far I haven't had any problems.
I have been known to haul monorails into the woods and it works well, I think. YMMV, but here is one account: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/mono-field.html.
I have used a Horseman LE (with a short rail, 150 mm, I think it was) and once on the tripod it worked a charm. I have also used a smaller Arca-Swiss (older model) and that worked well, too. What you may gain is an easier setup with a field camera. But note, not all field cameras are capable of having a lens attached when folded, and thus some of the setup ease goes away. With a little perseverance and some structured thinking about how you put stuff into the bag or backpack you'll get a long way from home...
You don't necessarily need to disassemble the whole monorail.
I fitted the Calumet monorail that I'm selling near-complete into a laptop backpack. I simply removed the front standard and the rail, and placed them in other pockets in the bag.
Other than the rail it's hardly any larger** than the wooden 4x5's and it has near-unlimited movements.
The weight is the biggest issue, metal is obviously heavier than wood. It's all down to your chosen subject matter.
Edit: ** silly me!
BillBingham2
06-27-2007, 11:41
A lot depends upon how much teaking do you want to do when you take the picture. Do you need/want the ability of ultimate swings and tilts and stuff for close-ups for every shot? Or can live with the limited but still usefull movements you find in say a Crown Graphic (like a speed, but using between the lens shutter rather than a focal plain shutter)?
I love my old monorail, built like a tank. It does great things for product, still life and portaits. But I would much rather pack my Crown Graphic and a few lenses. It has enough adjustments for me and its a rangefinder!
B2 (;->
O<snip>way back in the woods</snip>
Going way back in the woods... find the lightest field camera you can find... Remember you will also be lugging a sturdy tripod, film holders, dark cloth, meter, loupe and a lens or so. The weight of all that stuff adds up.
I have taken my monorail for short hikes on the C&O canal but the canal is flat and level and I have never wanted to hike more than a mile or two.
Todd.Hanz
06-27-2007, 11:54
a wood field camera is more romantic, a monorail more utilitarian, either will work fine.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/147/386044522_6e0df06390_o.jpg
Todd
A field 4x5 camera will usually fold up into a small package and can be carried in a small bag/case whereas the monorail has to have a case designed for monorail models to be safely carried. The case will be much larger than a case for the field camera.
a wood field camera is more romantic, a monorail more utilitarian, either will work fine.
Todd
Very pretty camera Todd, what is that, a Tachihara with a graflok back?
Thanks one and all!
Maybe if I define what it is I want to do with a 4x5 camera it will help me to narrow my criteria for a camera.
Product photography: Fuhgettaboutit. I am the self-avowed World's worst when it comes to Product pictures. I'm not a whole lot better at still life either.
Portraits, Architecture: Not really planning on this either.
Landscape: This is why I want a 4x5 camera. Minerals, vegtables & clouds. That is my main purpose for a large format camera.
Movements: Foreign to me at the moment. Any camera movements will confuse me at first. Probably best to keep it simple.
If it sounds like I am talking myself into a bare bones folding 4x5 camera, you're probably right. On the other hand I may go look at the view camera for educational purposes.
Keep the information flowing.
a wood field camera is more romantic, a monorail more utilitarian, either will work fine.
Todd
You rascal! I didn't know you had one of those. We need to talk. Some weekend when I'm in Houston and you are free.
I could wag home a wood & brass camera and set it up amongst the antiques and my Decorator would go for it. :D
f/stopblues
06-27-2007, 12:24
I have a Cambo 4x5 monorail and have adopted the philosophy of, "If its more than 100 yards from the car, it's not photogenic." (someone's sig on apug) I love the negatives but my big, black, probably bulletproof case is a beast to lug around if you're not on pavement (it has wheels and a telescopic handle!)
It was my first view camera and I haven't gotten close to the capabilities of the movements yet. Looking back, I wish I had bought a field camera because my needs don't suit this camera. In fact, I'd like to sell it at some point but I haven't wanted to go through the trouble of listing, shipping, etc yet.
I just heard from the seller. The camera is a Toyo G model.
There's one on craigslist right now. Go figure.
http://images.craigslist.org/01021201030101041120070624e980a2fc801a13b881008585 .jpg
I am inclined to pass.
I have a Cambo 4x5 monorail and have adopted the philosophy of, "If its more than 100 yards from the car, it's not photogenic." (someone's sig on apug) I love the negatives but my big, black, probably bulletproof case is a beast to lug around if you're not on pavement (it has wheels and a telescopic handle!) .
"If its more than 100 yards from the car, it's not photogenic.", lol love that...
Take it out of the box, screw it down tight to the tripod and sling it over your shoulder. Thats how I do it with my Calumet Green Monster.
venchka
If you are primarily interested in landscapes then you really don't need a lot of
extreme movements. A good quick one page intro into movements (http://www.toyoview.com/LargeFrmtTech/lgformat.html) is available at the Toyo site (BTW the Toyo 45CF Field Camera (http://www.toyoview.com/Products/45CF/45CF.html) is on my short list if I ever win the lottery).
Todd.Hanz
06-27-2007, 12:54
Very pretty camera Todd, what is that, a Tachihara with a graflok back?
thanks, it's an Osaka, which is a re-branded Tachihara (same company), the back is just a Polaroid 545i holder
V., let me know when you're in town and you can check it out.
Todd
Todd,
Thanks. Will do. You may check out my Konica lens collection.
nikon_sam
06-27-2007, 14:36
I have a Zone VI View camera and it fits nicely in a Tamrac bag that converts to a backpack...it holds most of what I need and I also carry another older Tamrac with the rest of the stuff...then there's the Tripod...it all adds up in the end...
If the "Price is Right", I would really think about it...
If you really want to get the shot you'll carry that thing anywhere...
I went the monorail route, though admittedly I really enjoy LF portraits and macro shots as well as landscapes. I do take the monorail out and don't have many problems - just move both standards to one end, throw the stap over my shoulder and the other end sticks out away from me. If you only want to do landscapes, go for the field camera. If you want more versatility, go for the monorail. It may not be pretty to carry, but the monorail has been portable enough for me.
I went the monorail route, though admittedly I really enjoy LF portraits and macro shots as well as landscapes. I do take the monorail out and don't have many problems - just move both standards to one end, throw the stap over my shoulder and the other end sticks out away from me. If you only want to do landscapes, go for the field camera. If you want more versatility, go for the monorail. It may not be pretty to carry, but the monorail has been portable enough for me.
Pretty cool way of carrying it. Never thought of that. I use a my kids red Radio Flyer to carry my Cambo 4x5.
When I think how hard it is, I just think of those cinematographers that carry movie equipment to Africa or up mountains. I watched some animal show once on Animal Planet and this one guy was running with a huge tripod and a movie camera so he can catch a snake somewhere.
You know,they sell those Radio Flyer's with massive, air filled wheels. I'll have to borrow one of those one day to see if it'll make it on a hike.
there are some monorails that are easy to pack, such as the arca swiss f-classic, linhof technikardan, kardan lt, the tohos...
Is the monorail for the G one piece or two? If two, you're good to go. As I said in a PM to Wayne, the killer is the number of film holders you take in. Most people underestimate the weight of those; we're used to having as much 35mm or 120 film as we might possibly use in oh, a couple of years, along on a single day's outing JUST IN CASE. With 4x5 your muscles will hate you forever if you do that too often, hence the Ready/Quick load systems. (Very few LF shooters who hike in considerable distance take more than one lens. A single lens and 4x5 camera kit can be reasonably "light" compared to the kit some 35mm shooters take into the bush.
So if the G kit is a really good price and can be packed efficiently into a proper case, then I'd go for it since selling it later if you change your mind will be pretty straight forward.
... BUT ... what is the weight of the G? The current GII weighs in at 12 lbs, I know my 45A is ~ 6, and the current 45AX is < 6lbs. 6 lb difference is a lot of film holders. And wooden field cameras often weigh even less.
Earl
wlewisiii
06-27-2007, 19:42
Backpacking is one area where the old convertable lenses still make sense - one lens and 2 or 3 focal lenghts for the same wieght. Holders & accessories (meter, dark cloth, etc) are where the real weight comes from, though.
I had a Speed Graphic, bought a Calumet monorail, & am working on a stripped down Crown Graphic for my light weight field camera option. All are good & all have different strengths & weaknesses. See if you can try one or two before buying. Just don't look at any 5x7 or 8x10 negs in the meantime <GD&R>
If I can pick up a couple of Grafmatics for sane prices, then the Crown with my convertable Symmar will make a nice light backpack system.
William
If you can afford it, get an Arca Swiss Field Camera -- capabilities of a monorail with the weight, size and portability of a wooden field camera (almost anyways). The best of both worlds and an awsome piece of engineering. Pretty easy to stuff into a backpack, too.
john neal
06-28-2007, 00:03
Like some of the others who have replied, I would think about the weight. I used to have a nice MPP monorail that I used in the woods, but it weighed a ton. Now I have a cherrywood Wista that weighs less the 1/3, but still has all the movements I need - plus it looks the absolute business!
Backpacking is one area where the old convertable lenses still make sense - one lens and 2 or 3 focal lenghts for the same wieght. Holders & accessories (meter, dark cloth, etc) are where the real weight comes from, though.
I had a Speed Graphic, bought a Calumet monorail, & am working on a stripped down Crown Graphic for my light weight field camera option. All are good & all have different strengths & weaknesses. See if you can try one or two before buying. Just don't look at any 5x7 or 8x10 negs in the meantime <GD&R>
If I can pick up a couple of Grafmatics for sane prices, then the Crown with my convertable Symmar will make a nice light backpack system.
William
I'm a *serious* newbie to the format, started with a Shen-Hao (that I love) and recently acquired an old Toyo monorail for free (guy didn't have time for it and wanted it to be used). I also got a very neat little 2x3 Century for the price of postage. Someday I want to do what William is doing a convert a stripped Crown.
If you're just starting out, I think the field camera is the way to go (and HU, there's a Zone VI on photo.net for $475 this AM)). The get-up-and-go factor is really great and the fact that it doesn't have as many movements as the monorail has been a bit of a blessing as I have started to work out my approach. I have found that too many degrees of freedom can get a little frustrating at first. You can always grab a monorail for a song later on --- keep an eye on craigslist, one of the great things about LF is that you can use the same set of lenses with different cameras in many cases (and certainly among the same format)-- a huge advantage. Also, if you end up not enjoying the field camera, resale is quite good.
BTW, LISTEN to William regarding NOT looking at 5x7 or 8x10 negatives. I didn't and now I have an old B&J 5x7 on the way for $100. Going to be my rainy day project along with replacing the seals on my XA and Ricoh G500. This forum is dangerous.
Good luck and enjoy,
JT
f/stopblues
06-28-2007, 06:37
BTW, LISTEN to William regarding NOT looking at 5x7 or 8x10 negatives. I didn't and now I have an old B&J 5x7 on the way for $100.
Excellent advice. I saw my first 8x10 contact print this month at a museum here in Kansas City. An Edward Weston original contact print is enough to give anyone a tickle down deep and start checking the LF classifieds. Oh, and next to it was an Ansel Adams contact, and on the wall behind it was an Avedon and Steichen. I *love* this new museum building.. I've been 3 times this month already. It's NOT good for my wallet, but its also an incredible source of inspiration.
Santafecino
06-28-2007, 08:19
More free advice--You might want to design your camera bag before buying anything. I used to have a Zone VI bag that held a Wista field camera, plus about six holders, a 135mm Symmar (light!), a 210mm Symmar-S, a reflex back (specally adapted for the Wista) and a Soligor spot meter--and it wasn't too much weight on the shoulder strap. Tripod went on the other shoulder. This was much better than the Toyo-View in its fiber box and was enough for me. Why did I ever sell it??? (I know the answer and it's another story). Now I'm thinking about getting back into LF, and it'll be a Crown Graphic--cheap and tough.
Bingo ... I have the Zone VI bag for 4x5 (I didn't/won't sell it unless the whole kit goes!), and it is a superbly designed piece of gear. You are right in that it carries very well even when loaded. This summer I will probably use it at Lake Superior with the Toyo, one lens (Fujinon 150/5.6, a few holders and maybe a meter.
Finding the RIGHT bag before the camera is a superb idea.
Edit: This bag has durable, "wipe-clean" outer surface that is white ... keeps the contents 10-20deg F cooler than black bags. Black bags are stupid, IMNSHO. :D
More free advice--You might want to design your camera bag before buying anything. I used to have a Zone VI bag that held a Wista field camera, plus about six holders, a 135mm Symmar (light!), a 210mm Symmar-S, a reflex back (specally adapted for the Wista) and a Soligor spot meter--and it wasn't too much weight on the shoulder strap. Tripod went on the other shoulder. This was much better than the Toyo-View in its fiber box and was enough for me. Why did I ever sell it??? (I know the answer and it's another story). Now I'm thinking about getting back into LF, and it'll be a Crown Graphic--cheap and tough.
I just built a watch list at ebay. For educational purposes.
and I drink wine for medicinal purposes only.
After purchasing a Minolta Auto Meter IVF last night I asked the gentleman, "What else have you got for sale?"
"Are you interested in a Speed Graphic?" :cool: :eek: :D
"I might be."
He left the room and returnd with a cardboard box. In the box was a decent looking Speed Graphic, 5 holders, flash gun with cord and a big, old, brass Voigtlander & Sohn, Braunschweig lens. The camera had a sticker on it with $100 written on it.
"$100 for everything in the box?"
"Yes."
:cool: :D :)
Body Serial # : 8859xx
Ektar Serial # : RM248x
Voigtlander Serial # : DRP 8850x
Everything on the camera worked. The body covering is all intact and looks very good. The bellows look & feel like new. The camera has a coated Kodak Ektar 127mm 4.7 lens. The slow speeds are really slow. From 1/10 up seem ok. The focal plane shutter works in both ranges. The optical viewfinder is missing an element and is out of focus. The Kalart rengefinder works. The images are displaced horizontally. Can this be adjusted?
The camera is virtually identical to this one for sale on ebay.
The serial numbers of both lenses and bodies are very close together. The lens was manufatured in 1953. I reckon the body dates from the same year or very close. The gentleman I bought it from has had it since the mid to late 50s.
The brass barrell lens is a Voigtlander Collinear II No 4 7 7/8 in 5.4 to 45. 7 7/8 in convets to 200mm. :)
Both lenses cleaned up very nicely after I got them home.
A few new questions:
What the heck is the Voigtlander lens? Good? Bad? Useable? The focal length equals 53mm on 35mm film. That's good.
What is the consensus on the Ektar lens? What is it's field of view? I just did the math. Approximately equal to 34mm on 35mm film. That's good.
Should I use the Fuji Quickloads? What gizmo do I need to be able to use the Fuji Quickloads?
Are 5 film holders adequate?
Do the optical viewfinders come up for sale? Or should I remove it and do without?
What kind of sheet film tank do I need to develop my own film?
I'm excited. It may be awhile before I get any film through my camera.
Oh. I passed on the Bronica with prism, one back & a 150mm lens. I could go back and get it. :D
Thanks again for all of your help.
Todd.Hanz
07-11-2007, 08:46
Wayne, congrats on a sweet deal!
here is a good resource for Graphic cameras and lenses: http://graflex.org/speed-graphic/
Todd
Thanks Todd. I wasn't sure if the price was sweet or not. Then I found the thread from a few weeks ago for the $175 Speed Graphic that went to Erik in Norway. Last night I figured any 4x5 camera and lens was worth $100.
I'll do my homework at graflex.org tonight.
Todd.Hanz
07-11-2007, 09:42
The Ektars are sweet lenses, I have a 100/6.3 wide field ektar that doesn't suck, it's far better a lens than I am a photographer ;)
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/184/415571012_d6ebe1b432_o.jpg
http://my-expressions.com/up_media/1108/pblog/7438/1172275491.jpg
Todd
The same could be said about every lens I own. :eek:
Apparently I bought a Pacemaker Speed Graphic from 1953 or 1954.
Pacemaker Speed Graphic (http://graflex.org/speed-graphic/pacemaker-speed-graphic.html)
Joe Brugger
07-11-2007, 10:17
That's the way to buy them -- everything together from someone who's had it forever. Congratulations. The Ektar is sort of the standard lens for those and capable of very nice images. Don't forget to check the bellows for leaks (dim light source inside it in a dark room).
The first newspaper I worked for (in 1972, yet) was using that set-up. The chief photographer was very dubious of my 'miniature' camera (35mm) and we compromised on a 2 1/4 TLR.
My local lab says their 4x5 processing business is growing a few percentage points every year.
...
The brass barrell lens is a
Voigtlander Collinear II
No 4
7 7/8 in.
5.4 to 45
7 7/8" converts to 200mm. :)
...
Wayne, your Collinar is between 1907 and 1913 - probably 1908 or so.
I can't believe I am about to be using a 100 year old lens. It doesn't look a day over 50! :cool:
You think that you are shooting with an old lens?
Check the one I use
http://www.outdooreyes.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=39010
:D
You think that you are shooting with an old lens?
Check the one I use
http://www.outdooreyes.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=39010
:D
Totally jealous! That would be a great backcountry MF/LF camera. I will have to remember this. Would the front standard accept a newer lens?
I have a Cambo 4x5 monorail and have adopted the philosophy of, "If its more than 100 yards from the car, it's not photogenic." (someone's sig on apug) ... Snip
ICBW, but I think it's a quote from Edward Weston.
"Totally jealous! That would be a great backcountry MF/LF camera. I will have to remember this. Would the front standard accept a newer lens?"
I'm afraid not Wayne, the camera is 1908-12 vintage and the options are rather limited, they do produce great pics however.
Hugh
Wow, I like that 3A conversion!
BTW, in looking for something else, I stumbled on this discussion (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=11641) about monorail vs. field for landscape/nature work. Lots of good info and opinions.
"Totally jealous! That would be a great backcountry MF/LF camera. I will have to remember this. Would the front standard accept a newer lens?"
I'm afraid not Wayne, the camera is 1908-12 vintage and the options are rather limited, they do produce great pics however.
Hugh
Of course. Use the original lens. I have an old folding "field" camera I bought at the semi-annual Paris flea market in 1969. The lens+shutter looks similar. It must be a plate camera of some fractional size. The "film" holders are sized & shaped to take thin glass plates. Almost, but not quite, 4x5.
The "film" holders are sized & shaped to take thin glass plates. Almost, but not quite, 4x5.
That is very likely european metric 9x12 cm size. It should be possible to get film in that size in the US. Or cut down 4x5". Use some thin glass as support and "glue" the film onto the plate with some honey or jam (true!). A bit of extra work, but results can be great.
EDIT: Checked, Freestyle has Efke 100 in this size.
If it's not 4x5 but close then you can often remove the rear assembly and modify it to take a 4x5 spring back (or graflok if you prefer). You'll either get a slightly cropped image on 4x5, or possibly the whole frame 4x5, maybe with vignetting depending on the camera and lens.
This way you have the more modern and available 4x5 film and film holders.
That was my plan but I never managed to buy a cheap 9x12.
Not to get sidetracked, but these all metal holders are very thin. There's a semi-circular spring on one end to push against the glass plate to hold it in. The ground glass "back" is a similar size to the holders. The back slides up & out and the plate holder slides down to take a picture. Double stick tape was my first thought ages ago. I think the whole camera is light leaky now. I'll just look at it. Use my real cameras.
Ok, looking at it now. The camera suffered major damage in the move. The screws holding the front to the body are ripped out and gone. The lens is a Wollensak made in Rochester, NY USA. The plate holders are stamped BREVETE 500G. Apertures: 1 2 3 Shutter speeds: 1/2, 1/5, 1/25, 1/50, 1/100 B T. All speeds seem to be the same, probably 1/100. It's toast.
Venchy,
I'll take it off your hands :D
Nope. Had it too long. My Decorator uses it for display purposes. It's quite small, all wood with tattered covering. We'll keep it as a reminder to take better care of ancient things.
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