View Full Version : Do you think the M8 is making RF cameras more Popular?
I just read the article about the surge in people coming to RFF. Do you think the M8 has something to do with that? Everyday I'm reading about more and more people switching over to RF because of their dissatisfaction with DSLR. Even if the M8 is out of someone's reach, I see more newbies getting into film via M6, M3's.
thomasw_
06-25-2007, 17:53
i agree...
charjohncarter
06-25-2007, 18:03
You may be correct, but I hope they wait for a while so old Leica prices don't go up any further.
More and more people are using digital cameras so it makes sense that Leica's M8 is making rangefinder use more popular as well.
Also since it's release I have noticed the price for used Leica Camaera bodies and lenses has increased.
Supply and demand principle.
Definitely ... and if some of the other manufacturers don't go the digital RF route I will be very surprised. Imagine a rangefinder camera priced in the more friendly zone of reallity ... it will sell like hot cross buns at Easter! :)
back alley
06-25-2007, 18:18
i doubt it.
the m8 has just brought the slr vs. rf battle to digital and frankly the slr is the clear popular choice, in film & digital.
if the world of rf is growing i would guess it has more to do with rff, the 'new' voightlanders and the cameraquest site than the m8.
I don't think so. The M8 has driven the used lens price way up and make it harder to get into RF photography.
To be honest I doubt that many amateur photographers would know what an M8 is, let alone know that it's digital. It isn't marketed at all similarly to consumer DSLRs and Leica aren't trying to appeal to people of the 'digital generation' with the M8, they're trying to appeal to the people who have been using RFs for years, just as they have been doing for each successive M.
I think it's more likely that a resurgence in the popularity of photography in general is responsible. As photography has become more accessible (through digital P&S camera and even mobile/cellphone cameras) more people are likely to take an interest in photography and therefore seek out other photographic equipment and media.
CameraQuest
06-25-2007, 19:48
I never would have believed it, but yes indeed, the M8 has definitely made RF photography more popular.
Why do I believe this?
Because I have sold about six sets of Voigtlander lenses to new M8 owners
who had NEVER owned a rangefinder before!
damn. I was never expecting that !
Stephen
NickTrop
06-25-2007, 20:34
I would have said "no" but CameraQuest settles this question. Never would have guessed since it's such a specialty item. While I still dig my Cosina K-Mount SLR, since shooting RFs the shutter on that thing sounds like a canon blast.
Tuolumne
06-25-2007, 20:45
I never would have believed it, but yes indeed, the M8 has definitely made RF photography more popular.
Why do I believe this?
Because I have sold about six sets of Voigtlander lenses to new M8 owners
who had NEVER owned a rangefinder before!
damn. I was never expecting that !
Stephen
Stephen,
I wouldn't call six a trend. I would be much more impressed if you had said 666.
/T
It got Leica's name back in the headlines, and Leica means rangefinders.
There has to be new interest in the cameras because of that, it's impossible for that not to be the case.
Sure it has. But don't forget RFs are still a niche market. Even if the M8 would double the interest in RFs, were talking about less than 1% of the DSLR market. And the DSLR market is the one that is really growing!
angeloks
06-25-2007, 23:59
For me it did, I started photography a few years ago and I never looked into RF. With people taking about the M8 in every SLR forums, it slowly dragged me into the pit!
I don't think so, if you want to try Rf you wouldn't buy a digital Leica: too expensive!!
I started with a 20 € Zorky and now I'm buying a Bessa R: these cameras are making the RF popular!!
A lot of people new to RF are going straight to the M8.
What I think is happpening is, people intially learn about the M8, consider it too expensive, then try to find a lesser priced alternative.
The M8 is kinda like the 'gateway drug' into RF. I met someone on the subway today who read about the M8 in a Photo Mag. He never heard about RF before. The camera interested him until he found out the price, but he was still interested in RF and bought a ZI Kit, ditching his DSLR.
I think Leica (M8) is making RF popular, but upon finding out it's price, new users settle for a Bessa/ZI ect...while in the meantime always itchin for the Leica...
Most definitely yes. About 75 % of the posts by new users on the LUF are buyers that have either sold their DSLR systems or are starting to use both systems side by side. Of course those users are the ones that are most prone to post with questions, but still....
alan davus
06-26-2007, 01:06
According to Roger Hicks over on APUG Leica sales are stronger than they have been in many years, obviously because of the M8. But it is evidently having a flow on effect with M7and MP sales which are up as well.
I think is more like the other way round, the M8 is making Digital Photography more popular among RF users. :D
Jim Watts
06-26-2007, 03:56
More and more people are using digital cameras so it makes sense that Leica's M8 is making rangefinder use more popular as well.
Also since it's release I have noticed the price for used Leica Camaera bodies and lenses has increased.
Supply and demand principle.
Well I think it did increased the sales of the R-D1/s the only other digital rangefinder which Epson now says has reached the end of its production run (originally stated as 10,000 bodies), but I think the increase in sales of new film Leica's will probably be short lived. (Some sales will always be there, probably at about pre M8 levels).
Clearly the sales of Leica fit new & secondhand lenses has taken a boost from the M8 & R-D1, but most secondhand Leica bodies are cheaper now than a year ago (at least in the UK). I was offered much less for a black chrome Leica M4 in part ex. for an M8 than I was for a cash sale to a dealer 18 months ago. Dealers tell me they are not really making any money on S/H bodies now, but are relying on lens sales.
I got an excellent price on my M6TTL a few weeks ago, but then prices in the UK were quite a bit higher in the UK than on the Continent. Lenses seem to be going stratospheric.
Yes.
I'm a digital-only photographer - I only took up photography 3 years ago, and have no interest whatsoever in film.
My first camera was a Canon 10D but after a while I wanted something simpler and less intrusive, and bought an Epson R-D1. I would've preferred (and still do) an SLR version of the R-D1 but such a beast doesn't exist - I don't suppose anyone will ever make a small, manual digital SLR.
I wonder how many R-D1/M8 users, like me, bought the camera not because it's a rangefinder but for its manual controls and simplicity?
owenreading
06-26-2007, 06:04
I have to admit, that as a young 'un (I'm 21) I'd never heard of rangefinders until I read a review of the M8. Of course I can't afford one, but it certainly sparked my interest in them. I think the fact that it was covered quite extensively in a lot of digital camera outlets (magazines, websites etc) which people new to digital photography read will have helped the overall awareness of the rangefinder market.
And old stuff is always more fun...
Ken Tanaka
06-26-2007, 10:16
The M8's introduction has drawn some attention to the rangefinder camera design. But it will make little perceptible impact on the photography market for three reasons.
First, the M8's primary appeal is to those who have already been using M mount rangefinder cameras and have an investment in M lenses. This is the "choir" that has long enjoyed this style of photography. While there are some young people drawn to rangefinders most of these folks (like me) are hardly young and, as such, will do nothing to expand the generational appeal of these cameras. Let's face it; a lot of the M8 shutter clicks are aimed at grandchildren and twilight travel snapshots.
Second, as "owenreading"s note illustrates, the M8's cost puts it far out of the reach of most young enthusiasts. There just aren't many 20-something, 30-something, or even 40-something folks who have the financial resources and desire to buy into a rangefinder camera system.
Third, and most significantly, we're talking about a camera that's analogous to a fountain pen. Yes it has some wonderful characteristics and can, in skilled hands, help to create wonderful images. But, like the fountain pen, it's an instrument with a limited range of application and, strictly speaking, a very poor value compared to today's digital cameras.
The appearance of a sub-$1,000 digital rangefinder camera could have a noticeable (although still small) impact on the digital camera landscape. But the market for "fountain pens" is far, far too small to justify the risk of manufacturing investment.
Tuolumne
06-26-2007, 10:24
Ken,
I can only wish that rangefinder cameras were more like fountain pens (http://www.fountainpenhospital.com/). :D
/T
danwilly
06-26-2007, 10:36
I would give credit to Cosina for making RF'ing affordable.
I never would have believed it, but yes indeed, the M8 has definitely made RF photography more popular.
Why do I believe this?
Because I have sold about six sets of Voigtlander lenses to new M8 owners
who had NEVER owned a rangefinder before!
damn. I was never expecting that !
Stephen
It sounds as though, with the M8, Leica has rediscovered its core customer base -- well-to-do people with plenty of money and style, who purchase the camera because it is "the best" but who otherwise don't know much about photography. Doctors, lawyers, those who take $300 bottles of wine quite seriously. These folks want and can afford digital, and no longer want to deal with the hassle of film.
First, the M8's primary appeal is to those who have already been using M mount rangefinder cameras and have an investment in M lenses. This is the "choir" that has long enjoyed this style of photography. While there are some young people drawn to rangefinders most of these folks (like me) are hardly young and, as such, will do nothing to expand the generational appeal of these cameras. Let's face it; a lot of the M8 shutter clicks are aimed at grandchildren and twilight travel snapshots.
I hadn't used a Leica in years and owned no Leica lenses. But when Leica made a digital RF that could produce images in the same league as the Canon 1 series DSLR's I was using I jumped on it. It's great getting back to the RF finder, small size and straight forward interface of the M. Leica is selling everything it can produce after years of barely surviving. I'd say the Leica brand cultists are only a small segment of M8 buyers. As a matter of fact a lot of the 'true believers' seem to hate the M8 as it's not a 'real' Leica and they won't be able to hand it down to thier grandchildren.
Yes. In a spanish photo forum (www.ojodigital.com) there wasn´t any information about RF cameras. In september 2006 I started a thread (http://www.ojodigital.com/foro/showthread.php?t=100967) about the M8 and now it´s still alive with 1117 post and 49604 views. Some people is interested in the M8 and even bouhgt it, and others are interested in film RF cameras.
I think Ken's right. Let's not forget that a DSLR is a much more flexible tool than any rangefinder. Really good zoom lenses have made all the difference in the world. In the fifties and sixties and until fairly recently we used rangefinders for all sorts of things because available zoom lenses were less than useless for serious work. That's not the case any more. A good zoom still will give you a bit of barrel distortion at minimum and a bit of pincushion distortion at maximum, but if the minor distortion is a problem it's easily fixable in Photoshop.
Yes, prime lenses for the Leica and other rangefinders are marvelous instruments, but if you're going to do, say, a wedding or a dance class with a rangefinder you're going to end up with several bodies, each mounted with its own lens to give you a range of focal lengths. You simply won't have time to switch back and forth between the bag full of lenses hanging at your side. The DSLR with a fast zoom lens is much easier to carry around and much more responsive as you adapt your shooting to the changing scenes around you.
The place the rangefinder shines is on the street. The Leica always has been associated with street photography, beginning with HCB's earliest efforts. If you've ever tried street photography with a DSLR you'll know why that's true.
I think we're seeing a rush to digital rangefinders by two kinds of people -- old timers like me, who've used rangefinders for decades and find that having a rangefinder in hand again is like re-living a first love, and people of all ages who want to do street photography with an unobtrusive instrument that doesn't have the lags, inaccuracies, and disappointing quality of a point-and-shoot.
It looks as if there's a growing market for digital rangefinders right now, but I think it'll stabilize in the not too distant future. I also think we'll see quite a few used digital rangefinders on the market as the people who bought them as a novelty find that it takes a bit of practice, study, and work to do good photography with a rangefinder, and go back to point-and-shoots.
Tuolumne
06-26-2007, 14:57
Goody. Get me a used M8. MMMmmmmm.
/T
I haven't really been following the sale of the M8 or other rangefinder cameras but i think that this forum is really the only place where i could say people are in to the field of RF and know exactly what it is. I have never spoken to a person other then on this forum and photogs that shoot for a living that actually know what a RF is. I got in to Leica through a friend that has been using RF's for many years. Most people are into "Bigger is better" Canon/Nikon stuff and " How many megapixels is your camera?" To prove my point, my family had a large gathering of friends at their home, i decided to see with which cam i would get more response. My Canon 5D wins hands down. I took out my M6 and after every shot people would ask to see the photo on screen. I would say that this is B+W Film and the look of dissapointment would come over them, as if thinking "Whats wrong with you?".
Ken Tanaka
06-26-2007, 21:00
I suspect that my rangefinder background is common. My experience with rangefinder photography pre-dates the M8 but does not reach as far back as Hank's or Russell'. I bought an M7 and three M lenses several years ago with the basic objectives of (a) keeping my hand in the 35mm film genre, and (b) keeping touch with photography's basic craft techniques by using a well-made-but-primitive camera. The M7 filled the bill.
But the PGR (pain-to-gain ratio) of 35mm film soon exceeded 1.5 and I found myself using the M7 less. But knowing a "digital M" was around the corner my lenses and I waited patiently for it. The M8 continues to fulfill my original (b) objective above.
I think Russell's remarks are very much on-target to this topic. Since Leica now owns the digital rangefinder niche I suspect that demand will keep them busy for a while, but certainly in exchange for their dwindling film camera business.
I also think that "Tuolumne" will likely get his wish for a used M8 before long, and probably at a substantial discount to its original price, for some of the reasons that Russell suggested.
Whether or not the M is still king of the unobtrusive "street" camera, as Russell and others have suggested, is off-topic to this thread. So I don't want to hijack the topic. But it's worth debating sometime and someplace.
I haven't really been following the sale of the M8 or other rangefinder cameras but i think that this forum is really the only place where i could say people are in to the field of RF and know exactly what it is. I have never spoken to a person other then on this forum and photogs that shoot for a living that actually know what a RF is. I got in to Leica through a friend that has been using RF's for many years. Most people are into "Bigger is better" Canon/Nikon stuff and " How many megapixels is your camera?" To prove my point, my family had a large gathering of friends at their home, i decided to see with which cam i would get more response. My Canon 5D wins hands down. I took out my M6 and after every shot people would ask to see the photo on screen. I would say that this is B+W Film and the look of dissapointment would come over them, as if thinking "Whats wrong with you?".
I had a similar experience last weekend with my M6. I was at a party and someone came up to me and asked to see the picture. I told them that it was a film camera and they walked away disappointed.
My Nikon DSLR got me into photography but after looking at hundreds of images I realized that I didn't want A) a computer to do everything for me & produce a highly digitized image B) a camera that I could carelessly take 100 pictures of the same thing and then sort through when I uploaded the pictures C) something more compact and reliable (no batteries to die while I'm in a park, backpacking through Guatemala).
I was introduced to RF cameras because I came across the M8 in a photo mag. It was super expensive and I wanted to know why the price tag was so high. After doing some research, which was during the debut of the camera, I found out that it had a lot of problems and I didn't think much of Leica. After a year with the DSLR I realized that I wanted to go back to film and when I found out the M6/MP were 100% mechanical, save for the light meter, I realized that's what I wanted. I've had my M6 for a little over a month and a half and it's been wonderful. I've thought about the M8 but it's too much like my DSLR. Another computer to do everything. It thinks for you and maybe that's good for professionals and journalists who need the camera to calibrate itself on the fly w/ instant feedback.
I use mine for travel& leisure. It's perfect. All I need now is for the market to calm down so I can get myself a 90mm 'cron.
I've thought about the M8 but it's too much like my DSLR. Another computer to do everything. It thinks for you and maybe that's good for professionals and journalists who need the camera to calibrate itself on the fly w/ instant feedback.
The M8 is nothing like a DSLR. It dosn't do any thinking.
Everything except Av is done manually. It's kinda like digital M7. Nothing fancy. Only the essentials.
Something I like to do with my M8 is pretend it's a film camera. Turn off the preview option. Go out and shoot, only looking at my images afer the SD Card is full and they've been downloaded to my computer.
It gives me the waiting/delay factor of film, making my experience more enjoyable.
I'd be surprised if the number of people buying the M8 as a very first RF are anywhere near significant..
Seems to me the M8 is more like a step-up camera for already M owners..
SirAlien
06-27-2007, 00:45
When Voigtlander have a sub £500 digital model then you can argue that Rangefinders with digital backs are becoming popular but for now the Leica M8 is the only digital rangefinder arround and that cannot drive customers to the format as it's too expensive for most.
I have noticed that there are a few people, who having bought an M8, tend to move away from 35mm film ... but are still smitten by the quality you can get from medium and large format film. If image quality is paramount it makes sense to use a format that can give you what you want and a Mamiya ... Bronica etc, may be the perfect compliment to the M8. I suspect that when I have exhausted my current supply of 35mm film I will spend more time shooting with my budget MF rangefinders and ultimately a few of my 35mm cameras may be in danger of being sold to fund a really good MF camera and some quality lenses!
Does this make sense? :)
Rangefinders are not going to displace SLR's in any area of photography. However having a digital RF will preserve and grow the niche that RF occupies. Many will use them in conjunction with SLR's and some will use them exclusively.
Some photographers wouldn't think of working without a zoom for others a couple of primes fit the bill. I did 95% of my commercial work in the last 3 years with a Canon 1Ds, a 35/1.4 L and a 135/2 L with Af off most of the time -there wasn't any situation where I wish I'd had a zoom. But I was shooting with strobes in controlled environments. Replacing the Canon with an M8 was just a matter of ergonomic preference.
I think we're missing the point of this thread. I realize that SLR's rule as far as popularity. That's a given. I think the M8 has done a lot to raise photographers awareness to the RF.
The M8 is nothing like a DSLR. It dosn't do any thinking.
Everything except Av is done manually. It's kinda like digital M7. Nothing fancy. Only the essentials.
Then I can see why they're selling like crazy.
It sounds as though, with the M8, Leica has rediscovered its core customer base -- well-to-do people with plenty of money and style, who purchase the camera because it is "the best" but who otherwise don't know much about photography. Doctors, lawyers, those who take $300 bottles of wine quite seriously. These folks want and can afford digital, and no longer want to deal with the hassle of film.
Isn't that a little uncharitable to the talented photographers who scraped together the money to get this excellent tool, and to those doctors and lawyers that are actually first-rate photographers? A rich fool can and will buy any camera, be it an M8, 1DsIII or Hasselblad. I don't see this as an exclusive Leica affliction.
newyorkone
06-27-2007, 11:10
It sounds as though, with the M8, Leica has rediscovered its core customer base -- well-to-do people with plenty of money and style, who purchase the camera because it is "the best" but who otherwise don't know much about photography. Doctors, lawyers, those who take $300 bottles of wine quite seriously. These folks want and can afford digital, and no longer want to deal with the hassle of film.
That doesn't describe me at all. I think the M8 has broken out of this cliche, if anything.
newyorkone
06-27-2007, 11:14
The M8 is nothing like a DSLR. It dosn't do any thinking.
Everything except Av is done manually. It's kinda like digital M7. Nothing fancy. Only the essentials.
Something I like to do with my M8 is pretend it's a film camera. Turn off the preview option. Go out and shoot, only looking at my images afer the SD Card is full and they've been downloaded to my computer.
It gives me the waiting/delay factor of film, making my experience more enjoyable.
Me too. I turn off the auto preview and pretend. Saves battery life too :)
It sounds as though, with the M8, Leica has rediscovered its core customer base -- well-to-do people with plenty of money and style, who purchase the camera because it is "the best" but who otherwise don't know much about photography. Doctors, lawyers, those who take $300 bottles of wine quite seriously. These folks want and can afford digital, and no longer want to deal with the hassle of film.
There are a lot more well to do people with limited photographic skills buying Canon's top of the line, here as in every photographic market the DSLR totally dominates. The only thing that could dislodge Canon from it's top spot would be an Apple iPhone with a camera.
Of course the most famous trust fund baby with a camera owned a Leica: Henri Cartier-Bresson :)
I really wasn't trying to be condescending. (And I'm someone who can appreciate a $300 bottle of wine because I own several vintage bordeaux in that range). I think Leica was in trouble before the M8 because this core customer was no longer interested in film cameras. We here on RFF benefit from these folks, because they keep our camera companies in business. In the same vein, Nikon's target customer is really the mini-van driving soccer mom who isn't into photography with a passion but wants to have a good SLR with a good name. The street I currently live on fits that demographic, and it's the mom's who've bought all the Nikon DSLRs to document their little ones. They're doing scrapbooking on their home computers and are a formidable market force. When I emailed around a batch of pictures I took of our kids' soccer games, several moms wanted to know what camera I used, and were a little puzzled when they found out it was a Nikon rangefinder using 50-year-old 105mm and 135mm lenses.
Morca007
06-28-2007, 22:49
No, I do not think it is expanding the popularity of RF cameras at all.
fdigital
06-28-2007, 22:58
To answer your question, yes I think that it's providing quite a large customer base, urging a few people out of DSLRs and giving a little more popularity to RFs
I agree that wealthy amateurs are a mainstay of all the camera companies & have been as long as photography has been a hobby (just look @ pre-WWII camera ads for Leitz & Zeiss Ikon, etc. & post-WWII ads for the Nikon & Canon, etc.) as there just aren't enough professionals out there @ any given time. I think pros, & their needs, serve as incubators of new technology & as models for the amateurs to follow, e.g., cameras w/high-speed autofocus & 10 fps auto advance may have been originally developed for pro sports shooters & photojournalists, but there are many doctors, lawyers, engineers, software executives, etc., who want to use the same or similar cameras to shoot their vacations or their kids's playing sports. I would draw an analogy to auto companies w/their sponsorship of racing teams, where you have the same people described above buying sports cars & SUVs that will never touch a racetrack or go off-road.
I really wasn't trying to be condescending. (And I'm someone who can appreciate a $300 bottle of wine because I own several vintage bordeaux in that range). I think Leica was in trouble before the M8 because this core customer was no longer interested in film cameras. We here on RFF benefit from these folks, because they keep our camera companies in business. In the same vein, Nikon's target customer is really the mini-van driving soccer mom who isn't into photography with a passion but wants to have a good SLR with a good name. The street I currently live on fits that demographic, and it's the mom's who've bought all the Nikon DSLRs to document their little ones. They're doing scrapbooking on their home computers and are a formidable market force. When I emailed around a batch of pictures I took of our kids' soccer games, several moms wanted to know what camera I used, and were a little puzzled when they found out it was a Nikon rangefinder using 50-year-old 105mm and 135mm lenses.
Hmmmm, it would be interesting to think of the question the opposite way round. Is the M8 making rangefinder photography less popular ? Clearly not(?), so I ticked the yes choice.
Gabriel M.A.
07-03-2007, 10:23
I had a similar experience last weekend with my M6. I was at a party and someone came up to me and asked to see the picture. I told them that it was a film camera and they walked away disappointed.
A few years ago, I'd get the same reaction/questions (i.e. "how many megapixels?") with my M6. Since I got the M8, since both the M8 and M6 look pretty much the same to those who don't know the difference, I've been confusing people: sometimes my Leica is digital, sometimes it's film! It's "magic"... ;)
Gabriel M.A.
07-03-2007, 10:34
Isn't that a little uncharitable to the talented photographers who scraped together the money to get this excellent tool, and to those doctors and lawyers that are actually first-rate photographers? A rich fool can and will buy any camera, be it an M8, 1DsIII or Hasselblad. I don't see this as an exclusive Leica affliction.
I agree. Interesting that tunnel-vision people always think of "Leica" in these terms, but, of course, it is an unsolved mystery as to why Nikon rangefinders are so expensive, both used and new.
But, going back to the "question" (which, anything Leica/M8 related is going to bring the usual suspects' toxins into play, unfortunately), I don't think the M8 is making RF cameras more popular. The M8 is making Leica cameras more popular, if anything.
The Cosina-Voigtlaender cameras and lenses are responsible for making RF cameras more popular in recent years. I don't think too many people would disagree with that.
If someone can not use a DSLR then that person is even less capable of using a RF unless that person just came out of a cave and have never seen anything that requires batteries and use a switch to turn it off and on. Probably the most advance item ever used by that person is a crank in which case the RF is just perfect.
Chunin Martinez
I just read the article about the surge in people coming to RFF. Do you think the M8 has something to do with that? Everyday I'm reading about more and more people switching over to RF because of their dissatisfaction with DSLR. Even if the M8 is out of someone's reach, I see more newbies getting into film via M6, M3's.
I'm in my second try eith the M8. Sold the first one because found the M8 pretty much useless in JPG mode. DNG mode was totally necessary to get good image quality as for some reason JPG was worse than a P&S camera. Now I'm back into the M8 because I got a good price on one with lens and all kinds of accessories from one of those rich guys who bought it because of the status symbol and found it to be too hard to use. I don't blame him. If you have never done any photography in the old fashion way of manual everything, the M8 is the worst choice. He settled for the D200 and the 18-200VR zoom which is a good choice. In general most people are better off with a DSLR and a zoom. If you have done your own B&W work in the darkroom then the M8 is fine.
amateriat
07-03-2007, 12:24
A few notes:
- Yesterday, I was taking a long walk with galfriend to Red Hook (again...that part of Brooklyn is so achingly addictive just to walk through, let alone photograph), met up with a few people I know there, and had dinner (recommendation: The Good Fork, fantastic dishes). We walked past a cafe when a woman at an outdoor table spotted my Hexars and asked "Is that the new digital Leica?" On her table was a Canon 1D with requisite 70-somethingorother zoom. Turns out she's a veteran shooter for the New York Times, and she has a more-than-casual interest in the M8, but is "waiting out the bug-fixes."
- In the last several weeks of coming to the rescue of distressed computer users, I've had at least five PC users tell me they were about to buy their first-ever Mac as a replacement; all made good on their intentions, and I've set up a bunch of iMacs and MacBooks as a result. There are about three other clients who have signaled their intentions to go Mac. A sea-change in effect? Can't say, but this is one "happenin'" niche.
I think the M8 has certainly helped bring the rangefinder camera back into the pro/enthusiast limelight, and into the minds of photographers who either (a) weren't aware of RFs at all, or (b) shooters who abandoned their RFs years ago – well before digital was even an issue of debate – for the 5fps siren song of the SLR. I think this is translating into a larger pool of "new" RF shooters, both film and digital. ("A rising tide...", and so on.) This is a Good Thing. RFs have been on the sidelines for several decades now, and that's not likely to change much, but its "niche" status will grow to what I believe will be a stable and sustainable level. Frankly, I think that's all that's needed to keep the RF flame burning. (The fact that the M8 appears to be driving M7 and MP sales as well doesn't surprise me too much.)
I'm not discounting Cosina (or Cosina/Epson) in all this, but when have either had a product that made the pages of Time or Newsweek?
- Barrett
This has been discussed on the Nikon RF part of the forum, I think the consensus is that Nikon RFs are more expensive because many fewer of them were made compared to Leicas & even most models of the Contax RFs (Nikon having quickly switched to the F series SLRs, naturally) & significant collector interest in their land or origin.
IInteresting that tunnel-vision people always think of "Leica" in these terms, but, of course, it is an unsolved mystery as to why Nikon rangefinders are so expensive, both used and new.
No. I don't think that the M8 make RFF photography more popular. - Stephen Gandy's Camera Quest pages (very good, Stephen!) and, indeed this RFF Rangefinder Forum plays a very important part in making 'RFF photography more popular'.
The M8's role is that it makes it possible to use the M-system lenses usable in the digital world. Although it is not a perfect digital solution, the M8 is an improvement to the Epson RD-1. The M8 shows the way forward. Which is important. Otherwise the M-system has no future.
A non-cave-dwelling person can be fully capable of using a DSLR but still be dissatisfied w/them as a product class.
If someone can not use a DSLR then that person is even less capable of using a RF unless that person just came out of a cave and have never seen anything that requires batteries and use a switch to turn it off and on. Probably the most advance item ever used by that person is a crank in which case the RF is just perfect.
Chunin Martinez
Most people without photo background would find the concept of aperture and shutter speed daunting especially in this age of computer automation. Some would not want to learn it as RF cameras at least requires focusing and aperture control. In general, RF cameras are less satisfying as a product class. Only the few would find it otherwise.
A non-cave-dwelling person can be fully capable of using a DSLR but still be dissatisfied w/them as a product class.
ZeissFan
07-03-2007, 18:29
It's very possible that the presence of a digital Leica rangefinder has sparked some interest in the Leica name, film photography and hence film rangefinder photography.
This would be primarily among the enthusiasts, rather than the point-and-shooters (includes the dSLR and traditional P&S users) who want and expect full automation without any need to ever think about such mundane things as focusing and -- heaven forbid! -- aperture and shutter speeds.
Even so, any additional interest in another segment of photography can only be a good thing for film photography, as well as the photographer.
Robert Price
07-03-2007, 19:08
As for the M8 making RF cameras more popular, well I would have to disagree. I think the aspect of of popularity would be due to people not wanting to buy DSLR's. As we will see in the future, I would hazzard a guess that RF photography, film, and digital, will get smaller not larger. RF cameras are only important to us who enjoy them. The sheep don't really care about the wonder of RF cameras.
I hate to say it but RF cameras are a dying breed. Jus look at the demise of the Contax G1, and G2, great cameras indeed.....but where are they now? Gone into the machine called progress that is where. Look at the RD1, not profitable enough. Only Leica is really still around, making a stand. Even thoes at Leica know the days are numbered that is why we have the M8. Most if not all Pro Photogs are going or have gone digital. Leica is following suit, finally joining the Digital age.
I do hope RF cameras in one form or another rize in popularity for my own sake....but I think the sad reality will be not in our favor.
Folks,
There are more than one reason for the popularity of the M8.
*The ergometrics, size and weight of the camera make it a defacto digital point n' shoot with the file quality of a 5D. This is the most important quility for me. No other camera has ever been with me at all times.
*The superb mechanical qualities satisfy the equipment lust component in qeqr acqusition. The long history of the M and LTM lens mount brings out the collector instinct in most of us. Lets be honest and admit that the snob appeal of owning "the best" plays at least some role too.
*The M8 provides the only transition path for the traditional Leica users to the digital age
*It introduces, in a practical way, a whole new generation of proffesional users to the Leica brand. These are the pros who have only heard of Leica and need some practical reason to try the rangefinder format. Cost IS important for these folks and the Leica represents a luxory approach which needs to be justified if only for their personal camera. Digital is frankly a must.
The synthesis of many of these elements has resulted in the unexpected popularity of the M8. It really serves a unique nitche that no other camera or format occupies.
Oh yah, in a sort of perverse way, all the problems with filters, vignetting,etc has just served as a challenge to be overcome by the hobbiest/nerd faction. I certainly consider myself in this group. It seems to me that the rewards of overcoming the teething pains of the beta M8, are well worth it and only Leica could have servived such an inaspecious birth.
Well thats my theory anyway
Rex
Folks,
There are more than one reason for the popularity of the M8.
*The ergometrics, size and weight of the camera make it a defacto digital point n' shoot with the file quality of a 5D. This is the most important quility for me. No other camera has ever been with me at all times.
*The superb mechanical qualities satisfy the equipment lust component in qeqr acqusition. The long history of the M and LTM lens mount brings out the collector instinct in most of us. Lets be honest and admit that the snob appeal of owning "the best" plays at least some role too.
*The M8 provides the only transition path for the traditional Leica users to the digital age
*It introduces, in a practical way, a whole new generation of proffesional users to the Leica brand. These are the pros who have only heard of Leica and need some practical reason to try the rangefinder format. Cost IS important for these folks and the Leica represents a luxory approach which needs to be justified if only for their personal camera. Digital is frankly a must.
The synthesis of many of these elements has resulted in the unexpected popularity of the M8. It really serves a unique nitche that no other camera or format occupies.
Oh yah, in a sort of perverse way, all the problems with filters, vignetting,etc has just served as a challenge to be overcome by the hobbiest/nerd faction. I certainly consider myself in this group. It seems to me that the rewards of overcoming the teething pains of the beta M8, are well worth it and only Leica could have servived such an inaspecious birth.
Well thats my theory anyway
Rex
eric.schmiedl
07-03-2007, 20:38
It's very possible that the presence of a digital Leica rangefinder has sparked some interest in the Leica name, film photography and hence film rangefinder photography.
I never would have heard of rangefinders if not for whisperings of the Leica M8 on other forums. I heard about the "new nutso expensive gorgeous digital camera with the uber-elite Leica name" started doing some research.
I didn't 'get into' rangefinder work until I tried one. (a friend's Yashica Electro GSN)
I don't know what it's doing to RF photography, but it's definitely making infrared-cutoff filters more popular >:-)
As for the M8 making RF cameras more popular, well I would have to disagree. I think the aspect of of popularity would be due to people not wanting to buy DSLR's. As we will see in the future, I would hazzard a guess that RF photography, film, and digital, will get smaller not larger. RF cameras are only important to us who enjoy them. The sheep don't really care about the wonder of RF cameras.
I hate to say it but RF cameras are a dying breed. Jus look at the demise of the Contax G1, and G2, great cameras indeed.....but where are they now? Gone into the machine called progress that is where. Look at the RD1, not profitable enough. Only Leica is really still around, making a stand. Even thoes at Leica know the days are numbered that is why we have the M8. Most if not all Pro Photogs are going or have gone digital. Leica is following suit, finally joining the Digital age.
I do hope RF cameras in one form or another rize in popularity for my own sake....but I think the sad reality will be not in our favor.
What you missed ;) :
A surprising number of digital pros adding RF photography to their arsenal....
making it more popular in the sense that it is visible as a $5000 p&s-looking camera to the mainstream? Yeah, sure - it's being regarded as some obscure piece of joke.
making it more popular in the sense that many more ppl are jumping onto the RF bandwagon? Nah..
making it more popular in the sense that it is visible as a $5000 p&s-looking camera to the mainstream? Yeah, sure - it's being regarded as some obscure piece of joke.
making it more popular in the sense that many more ppl are jumping onto the RF bandwagon? Nah..
Strange- Leica are selling more M cameras than the last three years put together - ZI have an upswing - Bessas are selling better....Must be caused by cosmic rays...
jaapv: where do you get these data? And are these brand new M owners or people like you who ditched their film Ms for the digital M?
jaapv: where do you get these data? And are these brand new M owners or people like you who ditched their film Ms for the digital M?
Leica publishes financial results.
There are many photographers who have been all digital for a while and have'nt used an RF in years. The M8 has brought many of them back to RF photography. If not as their main camera then as a specialist add on to their DSLR kit.
For some younger photographers who have never used film a digital M has now made RF an option.
The M8 has also gotten a few film RF users to finally make the jump to digital. There really isn't any reason to buy a new film M with so many used M's on the market. Digital on the other hand pretty much guarantees users will be looking to upgrade every 3 - 5 years.
Then there are the Leica brand fans -but these are a minority of purchasers and many of the Leica cultists don't consider the M8 a 'true' Leica anyway. Real Leica's don't use batteries and can be handed down to the grand kids like a family heirloom. A digital camera will never qualify.
No one would have believed a year ago that Leica would be selling everything it could make and prices on used Leica gear would be going through the roof.
So Leica has gone from a company with an aging and shrinking market barely surviving and hemmoraging cash to a profitable growing company in a niche that is now growing. If they can repeat the success of the M8 with the R10 they will be truley transformed sales and proifitability wise.
There are a lot more well to do people with limited photographic skills buying Canon's top of the line, here as in every photographic market the DSLR totally dominates. The only thing that could dislodge Canon from it's top spot would be an Apple iPhone with a camera.
Er... The iPhone HAS a camera. All hell will now break loose! :eek:
Leica publishes financial results.
You're right. I stand corrected then! But how much of those sales are RF newbies?
Ken Tanaka
07-05-2007, 11:03
Leica's FY 2006/2007 financial overview (downloadable from their site: http://www.leica-corporate.com/home/ ] does show a significant M8 impact. But Leica is far from being in good shape as a going concern. They will have to find a way to convert the M8 fad as an ongoing wave for quite some time to reach a point of true health and sustainable growth.
As a customer, like many others here, I certainly wish them well but admit to having very weak faith in their long-term prospects as an independent company.
Carolyn-IL
07-06-2007, 14:53
I think cost of the M8 is just so incredibly prohibative to most people that I cannot fathom sales going up or it really "taking hold." The reason DSLRs, e.g., Canon, are so popular, is because they are decent, flexible and affordable.
I would LOVE to have and M8 and play for years with it, just cannot afford it right now ~ maybe ever. I do think RFs going digital is important and it's sad the Epson RD-1 was not improved on and is now discontinued. At least more people at least got to give digital RF a try. I don't know how else to bring digitial RFs to a wider artistic audience (not to mention students of the craft) without at least cutting that sticker price in half. $5000 is still a LOT of money to many people ... as someone mentioned, it's for the crowd (and God bless em') who don't mind buying a $300 bottle of Bordeaux.
Carolyn
Lots of M users have bought RD1s, lots of Canon, FSU, etc. rgfdr camera users have bought CV lenses. The M8 may not be a significant perturbation, yet, if ever.
Noel
Carolyn-IL
07-06-2007, 14:59
I think cost of the M8 is just so incredibly prohibitive to most people that I cannot fathom sales going up or it really "taking hold." The reason DSLRs, e.g., Canon, are so popular, is because they are decent, flexible artistically and affordable.
I would LOVE to have an M8 and play for years with it, just cannot afford it right now ~ maybe ever. If I'm going to make back any of that $$, have to also factor in printing costs, computer stuff, etc. I do think RFs going digital is important and it's sad the Epson RD-1 was not improved on and is now discontinued. At least more people at least got to give digital RF a try ~ the slowing down, contemplation and Zen of RF in a digital world. I don't know how else to bring digitial RFs to a wider artistic audience (not to mention students of the craft) without at least cutting that sticker price in half. $5000 is still a LOT of money to many people ... as someone mentioned, it's for the crowd (and God bless em') who don't mind buying a $300 bottle of Bordeaux.
I saw a cool website from this 17 year old kid, Joey Lawrence and his photographs were better than anything I've seen of late. Some were done with a 1MP camera! I think things will slow down and get more to the roots of basic photography w/digital, but I'm guessing something like the 5D will get most of us there - just because it's the best option for what a middle-income person can afford.
Carolyn
I think cost of the M8 is just so incredibly prohibitive to most people that I cannot fathom sales going up or it really "taking hold." The reason DSLRs, e.g., Canon, are so popular, is because they are decent, flexible artistically and affordable.
I would LOVE to have an M8 and play for years with it, just cannot afford it right now ~ maybe ever. If I'm going to make back any of that $$, have to also factor in printing costs, computer stuff, etc. I do think RFs going digital is important and it's sad the Epson RD-1 was not improved on and is now discontinued. At least more people at least got to give digital RF a try ~ the slowing down, contemplation and Zen of RF in a digital world. I don't know how else to bring digitial RFs to a wider artistic audience (not to mention students of the craft) without at least cutting that sticker price in half. $5000 is still a LOT of money to many people ... as someone mentioned, it's for the crowd (and God bless em') who don't mind buying a $300 bottle of Bordeaux.
I saw a cool website from this 17 year old kid, Joey Lawrence and his photographs were better than anything I've seen of late. Some were done with a 1MP camera! I think things will slow down and get more to the roots of basic photography w/digital, but I'm guessing something like the 5D will get most of us there - just because it's the best option for what a middle-income person can afford.
Carolyn
In a world of $650 10mp Rebel XTis, the M8 does look very expensive. However, if you look at the world of $4500 1DMkIII's it should change the perspective. Add the low production numbers and the much smaller RF market it plays in and the M8 doesn't seem that wildly overpriced. As for that pricing being prohibitive - check out how the Canon users have lined up for the MkIII, they are chomping at the bit to pay that $4500. Also, I see that a 1DMKII now sells as low as $2200, will a 3 year old M8 be selling that low? I can't be sure, but I think it will hold the value better than that - especially since Leica will probably not replace it that soon.
Of course some will say it has no AF, no dual Flash interface, no weathersealing, or 10FPS, etc, and that is true. So to make a more logical comparison, compare the top end of each range in film (1v for Canon and M7 for Leica) and you'll that the 1.33 crop, 10MP digital siblings of each demand respective premium of $2500 and $1300.
I am just trying to show that the price is not as other-worldly as people may think - you cannot compare the Canon to the Leica body for body, they are different products and markets.
In the end you really need to know and want a digital RF camera - if not, I don't think it makes sense to start with an expensive digital. Go buy a Bessa and use it for several months with film and then decide. Or if you really need to go digital, try a good R-D1 -as I know you have been considering, Carolyn.
As for the original question - did the M8 cause a resurgence in RF popularity? I think that the resurgence was underway but the M8 accelerated it, and has given it the possibilty of a viable digital future.
$5000 is still a LOT of money to many people ... as someone mentioned, it's for the crowd (and God bless em') who don't mind buying a $300 bottle of Bordeaux.
I do drink wine regularly but don't make my living drinking it so I never spend more then $15 on a bottle. For a collector/dealer $300 might make sense but for a drinker it's absurd even if you can afford it.
I do however make my living with camera's and the M8 is on the low end of cost of the sort of gear I would consider for my work -from the $7,000. Canon 1Ds MKII or $4500 Nikon D2x to medium format cameras and backs that are well north of $20,000. Yes the M8 doesn't have auto-focus and has less features and is only 10MP. But I prefer the ergonomics of the M8, the lack of features, unique RF finder and size being an advantage. That's the reason I use it. There are a whole range of cameras that have great IQ the M8 is not unique in that respect but the M8's image quality is stunning for anything up to a 2 page spread ad -easily matching the quality on the actual printed page (rather then 1:1 pixel comparisons on computer monitors) of anything out there.
erikhaugsby
07-16-2007, 19:25
I am not of the opinion that RF photography is becoming more popular as much as it has created more awareness. Film RFs (layman speaking) went the way of the dodo when digital entered the scene, but with the arrival of a digital RF comes public recognition of the camera because, after all, it is now a "serious" (read: digital) camera, and not an old film clunker.
This doesn't mean people will buy it, however...
I think I'm a living proof that they are, I just bought my first RF and can't wait to try it out. (I never considered a RF until the M8 hit the market, somehow the transition seems easier).
/Patrik
Sailor Ted
08-20-2007, 03:54
My vote- Yes absolutely. Now having said that and owning an M8 now for over six months, I have a wish list and it's nothing to do with the traditional M camera.
No. Releases of previous Leica film RF had no affect shifting consumer perference from film SLRs. I can't see the Digital Leica doing the same. Right now you are probably just seeing Leica or rangefinder photographers making a switch to digital rather than a renaissance of a camera type
I'd conservatively estimate that the M8 has doubled public interest in rangefinder photography, which, if the trend continues, means we'll soon be able to measure it with a number to the left of the decimal point. :D
I'd conservatively estimate that the M8 has doubled public interest in rangefinder photography, which, if the trend continues, means we'll soon be able to measure it with a number to the left of the decimal point. :D
After having bought an M8 I'm just looking fwd to the day I will be able to say that about my bank balance :D
Get real, folks! The public in general and consumers in particular
couldn't care less about the Leica M8 and rangefinder cameras.
Not trying to sound like a snob but if you set your watch by what the 'public in general and consumers in particular couldn't care less about' you'll miss out on most of the finer things in life.
nasmformyzombie
01-01-2008, 18:15
Don't be silly. How is a $5000 consumer camera (priced like a product for pros and therefore out of price range for most non-pros) driving interest in rangefinder photography? The so called rangefinder renaissance began several years prior to the introduction of the M8.
Leighgion
01-01-2008, 20:00
I said no.
The "legendary" status of Leica is just that to much of the population now: a legend that maybe they've heard vaguely of, but really lacks practical currency. The people that got excited about the M8 were the enthusiasts and the wealthy dilettantes who had the money to go out and buy what they read about in some magazines because the writer said it was good and significant.
While I'm sure the M8 helped Leica's sales and added to a resurge in rangefinder popularity, I think it's off-based to credit it with the resurge.
literiter
01-01-2008, 20:01
Not trying to sound like a snob but if you set your watch by what the 'public in general and consumers in particular couldn't care less about' you'll miss out on most of the finer things in life.
Good grief!
literiter
01-01-2008, 20:40
You would have to sell a heck of a lot of M8s to cause any effect on RF photography.
This site, for instance, will do much more for the rangefinder camera than an anachronism with digital bits.
The M8 generated some additional interest in rangefinder photography by making it a topical subject. For example, The New Yorker Leica profile was clearly motivated by the introduction of the M8. At the same time, the premium price of the M8 significantly limits the number of people who will sit down their DSLR and give the rangefinder world a try. Prior to owning my Epson R-D1, I was not a rangefinder photographer and would have never become one if the M8 was the only digital option.
For me, the real importance of the M8 lies not in its popularity but the historical statement it makes. Though I own an R-D1, I always felt Epson presented this camera as a limited issue historical oddity, like those replicas of 1940's radios that play CD's. By releasing the M8, Leica saved the rangefinder camera from becoming an antiquarian photographic method tossed on the historical pile with Daguerreotypes, glass negatives, and twin lens reflexes. If Voigtlander or another camera maker could produce a good digital rangefinder at a around $1500, the rangefinder world would probably be transformed by that camera.
dazedgonebye
01-02-2008, 05:35
Related question...
Will the M8 help bring about an affordable digital RF and if so when?
I suspect Lecia will eventuall do digital M9 and follow on cameras, but being Leica, I still won't be able to afford one.
IMHO Ebay has done more than the M8 to make RF popular as it's made cheap but useable Russian rangefinders and lenses more widely available.
The M8 will have made rangefinders more popular, but I doubt by very much.
I have just bought an M8. I would never have bought a RF if it had not been for the M8. I know several people who feel the same way.
If this is the case for me, I'm sure it's the same for a lot of other people. M8 is making rangefinders more popular.
.. but it doesn't run out of ink !
for me , it was a connection to a Leica II that led to the M 8 !
That seems reasonable !
dee
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