Explain to me Leica 90mm lenses pls

[Krosya]

Hi All,
I was on a sort of a long lens kick and am thinking about a good Leica one. However as I try to figure out all those Elmarits and Tele Elmarits and all their versions - I'm lost. Can anyone point me to a good source or just explain and recommend one? I don't really want Elmar as it's a slow lens to me. Summicron - 90/2 - seems to be a bit too much for me now. So 2.8 lens should do it. Question is - which one? And how do I differentiate one version from another? thin, fat, and whatever else is there. How Elmarit and Tele Elmarit differe? I'm very confused. :bang: Oh yeah - and what should I expect to pay for each type?
Thanks in advance.

[laptoprob]

Here: http://www.kbcamera.com/elmarit90mm.htm is an extensive comparison of the different versions.
I have a black first version of TE type 1 (the fat one) myself and love it. I might sell it when I get my Jupiter lubed to focus smoothly.
The TE is compact, not too heavy and about as sharp as the Summicron.

[ferider]

kbcamera or Cameraquest have good explanations on their website.

Roughly speaking, optically you have:

1 - old Elmarit (E39)
2 - Tele-Elmarit, thin and fat
3 - old Summicron
4 - new Elmarit (E46)
5 - new Apo Summicron

All focus down to .9m.

4 and 5 are supposed to be outstanding, but I have never used them,
out of my price class.

1 and 2 behave very similarly, 1 is just a bit sharper than 2, but 2 is more
compact. Bokeh-wise they are all beautiful.

3 is very heavy, and some say not too sharp. I am convinced that this is
partially due to experience with badly collimated, or hazed lenses.
Mine was CLA'ed by DAG and behaves well. It has the most beautiful OOF
behavior you can imagine.


If you want a fast short tele, other options include the Nikkor 85/2
or 105/2.5. Costs you about as much as a v1 Elmarit, but is a great,
great lens.

Also, myself, I like the CV 75/2 a lot.

Best,

Roland.

[dazedgonebye]

kbcamera or Cameraquest have good explanations on their website.

Roughly speaking, optically you have:

1 - old Elmarit (E39)
2 - Tele-Elmarit, thin and fat
3 - old Summicron
4 - new Elmarit (E46)
5 - new Apo Summicron

All focus down to .9m.

4 and 5 are supposed to be outstanding, but I have never used them,
out of my price class.

1 and 2 behave very similarly, 1 is just a bit sharper than 2, but 2 is more
compact. Bokeh-wise they are all beautiful.

3 is very heavy, and some say not too sharp. I am convinced that this is
partially due to experience with badly collimated, or hazed lenses.
Mine was CLA'ed by DAG and behaves well. It has the most beautiful OOF
behavior you can imagine.


If you want a fast short tele, other options include the Nikkor 85/2
or 105/2.5. Costs you about as much as a v1 Elmarit, but is a great,
great lens.

Also, myself, I like the CV 75/2 a lot.

Best,

Roland.

How would you compare any of these to the CV90...aside from speed of course.

[Krosya]

Thanks Rob and Roland. Good explanations. I'm more clear now. Followup questions - could you tell me more about CV 75/2.5 lens? I use 50mm lenses a lot and was thinking that 75 may be too close to that.
It's funny, 2 lenses that each of you guys talk about - Jupiter 9 and Nikon 85/2 - I have and both work fine, focus correcly, but I was looking for something better, thinking of selling my Nikon to go with Leica or possibly CV. Not a good idea? Any thoughts? I'm keeping J-9 btw, its a great lens when works right and mine does. But it "paints" different from Leica - thats why I was thinking of going that route.
Thanks again. and if you can add to your comments or add some sample pics - pls do. I'd like to see that old Summicron OOF look that you like so much.

[ferider]

How would you compare any of these to the CV90...aside from speed of course.

Like I said Steve, I haven't used the Apo Lanthar.

Roland.

[ferider]

At 2.8 the Nikkor will beat the Elmarit in terms of sharpness and bokeh.
But the Elmarit is much smaller and lighter.

Hard for me to tell you to sell one to get the other ... I like all of them.

The CV 75 is great. Very small, easy to handle and very nice OOF behavior.

Roland.

[35mmdelux]

if you know little about the 90mm and don't want slow consider the 90mm/3.5 VC or the 75mm/2.5 VC. These are very reasonably priced new and even better priced used.

The newer Leicas are state of the art pretty much and you will pay for this distinction. In the past year I owned all the newer Leica 90s and have settled for the compact and very light Minolta CLE 90mm/4.0. It delivers awesome results and great boke. I use strictly for portraits and 400 Portra. Really depends on how you want to use the lens....My Leica 90mm/2.0 is used less because its on heavier side and I prefer to travel light... 90mm/4.0 and 400asa film is equivalent to 90mm/2.0 and 100asa film.

[dazedgonebye]

Thanks Rob and Roland. Good explanations. I'm more clear now. Followup questions - could you tell me more about CV 75/2.5 lens? I use 50mm lenses a lot and was thinking that 75 may be too close to that.
It's funny, 2 lenses that each of you guys talk about - Jupiter 9 and Nikon 85/2 - I have and both work fine, focus correcly, but I was looking for something better, thinking of selling my Nikon to go with Leica or possibly CV. Not a good idea? Any thoughts? I'm keeping J-9 btw, its a great lens when works right and mine does. But it "paints" different from Leica - thats why I was thinking of going that route.
Thanks again. and if you can add to your comments or add some sample pics - pls do. I'd like to see that old Summicron OOF look that you like so much.

Funny how needs and perceptions color things.
I have a J9 and I actually love the way it "paints." I'm just looking for a little better sharpness.

[CorreCaminos]

I'm also trying to decide on a 90mm lens to go with the M4 I'm about to buy. I've narrowed the choices to the pre-Asph 'cron and the current Elmarit but I still have some questions and I'm not able to make the decision yet.

Apart from the maximum aperture difference, it seems like the 'cron is considerably larger than the Elmarit, and the Elmarit is much sharper than the 'cron. I haven't been able to corroborate either as I don't own either lens yet and I can't find the dimensions for the pre-Asph 'cron online.

I have several specific questions that I hope someone here can answer:
1. Is the above a fair characterization of these two lenses?
2. Can someone tell me how much larger (and heavier) the 'cron is?
3. Is the Elmarit really sharper? At all speeds or only the larger apertures?
4. How about bokeh? I've seen some lovely pictures taken with the Elmarit but haven't found any examples with the 'cron.

Thanks in advance.

[ferider]

I'm also trying to decide on a 90mm lens to go with the M4 I'm about to buy. I've narrowed the choices to the pre-Asph 'cron and the current Elmarit but I still have some questions and I'm not able to make the decision yet.

Apart from the maximum aperture difference, it seems like the 'cron is considerably larger than the Elmarit, and the Elmarit is much sharper than the 'cron. I haven't been able to corroborate either as I don't own either lens yet and I can't find the dimensions for the pre-Asph 'cron online.

I have several specific questions that I hope someone here can answer:
1. Is the above a fair characterization of these two lenses?
2. Can someone tell me how much larger (and heavier) the 'cron is?
3. Is the Elmarit really sharper? At all speeds or only the larger apertures?
4. How about bokeh? I've seen some lovely pictures taken with the Elmarit but haven't found any examples with the 'cron.

Thanks in advance.

Cann't talk about the current Elmarit.

Check out http://www.flickr.com/groups/86731438@N00/pool/tags/LeicaSummicron90mmf2.0III

For Summicron vIII example photos (I assume this is the one you mean).

Roland.

[Pablito]

You need really good eyesight to focus the 90mm lenses accurately, preferably using a higher-magnification finder. With the .72 finder in low light and/or wide open I found it to be hit or miss. Not to mention composing accurately in such small framelines. Just be aware of what you're getting into. You might try it out - go slow and get the Minolta f4 lens before you sink big money into this focal length. If it works for you, sell it for what you paid for it and get one of the Leica offerings.

[raid]

I have no trouble at all to focus my Summicron 90/2 wide open on my M3 or M6 (0.85). It is a sharp lens with a gentle touch of vintageness.

I have the old Elmarit; it is light and very sharp.
I LOVE my Elmar 90/4. It is one of a kind for me.
I admire the Nikkor 105mm/2.5. There is no other portrait lens that beats it.
I cherish my old design Summicron 90/2 for its beauty and optical signature.

I do not aim at getting any CV tele lenses.


Raid

[CorreCaminos]

You need really good eyesight to focus the 90mm lenses accurately, preferably using a higher-magnification finder. With the .72 finder in low light and/or wide open I found it to be hit or miss. Not to mention composing accurately in such small framelines. Just be aware of what you're getting into. You might try it out - go slow and get the Minolta f4 lens before you sink big money into this focal length. If it works for you, sell it for what you paid for it and get one of the Leica offerings.

Well, my eyesight is not what it used to be anymore but I believe I'll be fine with a 1.25 magnifier and the right diopter. Am I right?

Obviously, an M3 or an 0.85x M6/MP would be better but I prefer the M4 for a number of reasons (newer than the M3 and easier to load film, cheaper than the MP, and I just don't like the M6s much).

Oh my ... I think I just answered my own question. I've been trying to be somewhat fiscally responsible, if for no other reason because I need to continue to fund my MF system, but it just occurred to me that a 0.85x MP would be sweet! I guess it's only money...

[peter_n]

I have used the Konica M-Hexanon 90/2.8, "thin" Tele-Elmarit 90/2.8, and the APO Summicron ASPH 90/2. All of them are excellent, the Summicron less so close up. My favorite as an all-round lens is the Konica but I sold it some years ago. Big mistake. The Tele-Elmarit can be had for $400-500 and is a brilliant little travel lens. Get one with a serial nr. above 332xxxx.

[Krosya]

AS someone who has used kroysa's nikor 85.2 and an elmarit 2.8 -- they are worlds apart - I've got the original elmarit -- it's a lot lighter than the nikor, it's also much more compact -- a good version 1 elmarit can be picked up for $150 (I got lucky) - $300 -- use the hood -- it makes all the difference in low light shooting... it's a great compact lens - little bit lighter and shorter than the hektor 135 --- almost grab the wrong lens on occaison....

it's got a nice character

the flowers are with your nikor, the gate is with the elmarit...

both wide open

Well, if I had to base it on these two photos - I really like my Nikkor better as far as OOF (bokeh) goes. Maybe I should keep it? ;) It's just so darn heavy - I guess I need to start lifting weights. ;) Although its nothing compared to a Canon 100-400 L IS lol weight -wise.

[raid]

Here are some examples from my data file:


1. Summicron 90/2 first version with built-in hood:

http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=4069290

2. Canon 85/1.9:
http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=4604275

3. Elmarit 90/2.8:
http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=4745859

4. Nikkor 105/2.5:
http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=4714191

5. Nikkor 85mm/2.0:

http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=4745796

6. Steinheil 85/2.8:

http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=4754694

7. Elmar 90/4:

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=58755&ppuser=3565

Raid

[Krosya]

Wow Raid - I love that photo from Nikkor 105/2.5. Great shot and lens performance as well!!!! But than again - you have a great subject there too.
Thanks for sharing.

[ferider]

Krosya,

the 105/2.5 is outstanding. Really good. Just a little more difficult
to frame than 85/90. But usually not too expensive.

Or, if the chrome 85/2 is too heavy for you, maybe you want to
look for a black one ;)

Roland.

[raid]

Wow Raid - I love that photo from Nikkor 105/2.5. Great shot and lens performance as well!!!! But than again - you have a great subject there too.
Thanks for sharing.

Krosya,

Yes, my "model" is good, but a bad lens would look bad here too.
I have added an image taken with the old Elmar 90/4.




Raid

[CorreCaminos]

Thanks guys for the responses to questions above. I've reconsidered and will be getting a 0.85x M, most likely an M6 or M6TTL, in the next couple days. Although I still like the M4 better, the 0.85x M6 is a much better choice for my needs and not that much more $s.

I'll be calling around tomorrow and hopefully I'll have the new camera this weekend.

[Rob-F]

I have the original f/2.8 Elmarit in chrome; the black Tele-Elmarit; the Summicron AA/APO; and the 75mm SUmmilux. The AA Summicron is sharper at f/2.8, than the Elmarit or the TE. By f/4 or 5.6 at the latest it doesn't make any discernable difference. At its optimum aperture of f/5.6 or so, the 75 Summilux delivers as sharp a picture as my 90AA, the ASPH/APO stuff notwithstanding to the contrary.

The Tele-Elmarit is known to flare, but I use it with the 12575 hood with no problems. A favorite lens to have in the bag, in case I need a 90.

Bulky as it is, the 75 SUmmilux is a favorite because it is so often just the right focal length, and such a good lens.

I don't have the current 90 Elmarit so can't comment.

I do have the 90mm Summicron-R (early one with the collapsible "drinking cup" hood. ) I haven't used it a lot, but so far I can't fault it. But I understand the Elamarit is superior if you don't need f/2.

[CorreCaminos]

Thanks guys for the responses to questions above. I've reconsidered and will be getting a 0.85x M, most likely an M6 or M6TTL, in the next couple days. Although I still like the M4 better, the 0.85x M6 is a much better choice for my needs and not that much more $s.

I'll be calling around tomorrow and hopefully I'll have the new camera this weekend.

Done! Brown should show up tomorrow with a package containing a new (to me) 0.85x M6 TTL, a 90 'cron Type 3, and some other stuff.

Thanks again for the responses to my questions.