Four minty Zorki 4K

[zhang xk]

Hello guys,

Zorki 4K with engraved speed dials are uncommon. However, I managed to find 4 of them over the years, and the 5th one was grabbed by a guy from my hands.:(
I have added strap lugs to two of them. Now they are the top line of Zorki cameras with lever winding, full speed range, and a very bright finder. I would be reluctant to trade one with a Leica with bottom film loading. They are all in very clean conditions.

Kind regards

Zhang

[clarence]

I'd trade one for a minty Fed 2 anyday, though.

Clarence

[dee]

I like those with the earlier covering - the later stuff looks too fussy .
Nice though - my Z 4 is mint , but with ''snake '' covering . I do find these cameras to be a bit too big for me - i like my smaller mint Fed 2b with clip I 22 collapsible .
dee

[zhang xk]

I like those with the earlier covering - the later stuff looks too fussy .
Nice though - my Z 4 is mint , but with ''snake '' covering . I do find these cameras to be a bit too big for me - i like my smaller mint Fed 2b with clip I 22 collapsible .
dee

Fed-2 has a flat bottom plate. A longer rangefinder base, and in various colours. It is my favourite too.:) I would rather have both.:D

zhang

[zhang xk]

I noticed the 50/2 collapsible lens on the Zorki! That looks on the rare side, could you elaborate on it for us?

Hi,

That is a Fed C(S) 50/2 lens. Not an original Zorki lens.:p

[Valkir1987]

The Fed 2/50 is a very uncommon lense. I'm curious about the image quality, does it perform like the Leitz Summar? Do you have an example picture? :)

[zhang xk]

The Fed 2/50 is a very uncommon lense. I'm curious about the image quality, does it perform like the Leitz Summar? Do you have an example picture? :)

Sorry, I never tried it. I think as an uncoated lens, it should be less contrasty, but still very sharp if stopped down?

[outfitter]

The Fed 2/50 is a very uncommon lense. I'm curious about the image quality, does it perform like the Leitz Summar? Do you have an example picture? :)
I tried one on a Fed S body but the results were disappointing - I assumed the lens had been collimated to that body but that was wrong - all the pre-war LTM were individually set up for the body on which they were used and therefore mostly not interchangeable. I picked the one that had been coated at some point (the camera case has military marks) but I don't have the patience to try the other two in my collection. I could try to fit it to a post war body (the threads are slightly different) with removable back, collimate and take a few shots but it isn't all that an interesting a lens to me (nor was the Summar) to be worth all the trouble and I might damage the mount in the effort.

MIchael

[outfitter]

I'll have to be on the lookout for these. It looks like a Summar copy.

The Helios-103 and Menopta are essentially the same formula, and very sharp. I was not aware that it had been tried before in FSU lenses.
They were made for use on the Fed-S which was a Fed with a mximum speed of 1/1000s. Princelle estimates that less than 2,000 were made.

I always thought the Helios was in the Summicron camp not Summar. To tell the truth I never liked the low contrast of the Summar.

I was able to screw the coated one on a Canon 7 so the slop in the thread tolerances seems to work on real LTM cameras. For all I know it has been converted to LTM and collimated to Soviet LTM standards and my attempts to use it on a Fed-S cancelled all these updates. You see The American seller sold the body and lens separately and I assumed they went together. The initial buyer of the lens was in Japan; I contacted him and because he was disappointed with the lens sold it to me.

If you wish to get your hands on one and play just let me know and I'll send it over to you on loan.

Michael

[zhang xk]

They were made for use on the Fed-S which was a Fed with a mximum speed of 1/1000s. Princelle estimates that less than 2,000 were made.

I always thought the Helios was in the Summicron camp not Summar. To tell the truth I never liked the low contrast of the Summar.


....
Michael

Some other source estimated that about 20,000 units were made. I tend to believe this figure as they are not that rare. Shanghai 58-1 was made more than 1,000 units, and Nanjing 58-1 was about 2,000. One never saw them for sale.
I feel that the Jupiter-8M for Kiev 4 is sharper than the J-8 for Zorki, although they have the same design. Or maybe they are not optically the same. Helios 103 is a 6E/4G design that is similar to many modern 50mm normal lens.

Zhang

[outfitter]

Some other source estimated that about 20,000 units were made. I tend to believe this figure as they are not that rare. Shanghai 58-1 was made more than 1,000 units, and Nanjing 58-1 was about 2,000. One never saw them for sale.
I feel that the Jupiter-8M for Kiev 4 is sharper than the J-8 for Zorki, although they have the same design. Or maybe they are not optically the same. Helios 103 is a 6E/4G design that is similar to many modern 50mm normal lens.

Zhang
Well the 20,000 number would coincide with the numbers stamped on my mounts which are 21,xxx, 24,xxx and 28,xxx respectively. Trouble is everything in the Soviet Union was a state secret so that normal hostorical research is all but impossible. Some years ago Fed-S cameras and these lenses showed up regularly on eBay but I haven't noticed one in a few years - haven't really been looking since the prices of pre-war stuff went through the roof.

The J-8M has one less element than the J-8 whatever that means optically. It is possible that the RF on the Kiev is inherently more accurate than the Soviet verson of the LTM.

Michael

[rxmd]

Trouble is everything in the Soviet Union was a state secret so that normal hostorical research is all but impossible.
Well, if one is ready to actually do historical research and work with some primary sources, it's not that bad. Firstly, not everything was a state secret, and factory production figures for consumer lenses mostly weren't (they were just not easily accessible to the layperson). Secondly, in Russia they are surprisingly lenient with archive access unless you want to look at KGB or military material - a lot of historians including myself work extensively with Russian and/or Soviet archival material labeled "top secret". 1930s and 1940's factory records shouldn't be too difficult to access once you find where they are.

The problem is IMHO rather that most of us aren't in the position to do actual historical research beyond what's written in the literature on the subject (i.e. Princelle & Co.), and that what we read there is also at least partly based on collector hearsay. If you want to do the photographic world a favour, find a student of East European history and convince them to do a solid, good-old PhD on the history camera industry in the Soviet Union.

[outfitter]

Didn't mean to imply it was a secret just that the Soviets were secrative - after all the pre-war production was the subject of heavy propaganda and national prestige probably required a certain discretion about actual production numbers. I agree that one of the world largest photo industries requires the services of an historian. In any event too much camera literature is by collectors preoccupied with categorizing minor production variations rather than the important story of research, development and production and the socio-economic significance of the industry.

Michael

[outfitter]

Here is the Helios diagram:



45228





Looks like a Summicron

BTW how do you shim a collapsible lens (i.e. the Fed F2)

Michael

[zhang xk]

Well the 20,000 number would coincide with the numbers stamped on my mounts which are 21,xxx, 24,xxx and 28,xxx respectively. Trouble is everything in the Soviet Union was a state secret so that normal hostorical research is all but impossible. Some years ago Fed-S cameras and these lenses showed up regularly on eBay but I haven't noticed one in a few years - haven't really been looking since the prices of pre-war stuff went through the roof.

The J-8M has one less element than the J-8 whatever that means optically. It is possible that the RF on the Kiev is inherently more accurate than the Soviet verson of the LTM.

Michael

My Fed S has a S/N 14xxxx, and F2/50 has a S/N 29xxx, and another number 93 on the flange. So the 20,000 number may still be conservative? To my best knowledge, no other Soviet rangefinder cameras was equipped with this lens.


Zhang

[rxmd]

My Fed S has a S/N 14xxxx, and F2/50 has a S/N 29xxx, and another number 93 on the flange. So the 20,000 number may still be conservative?
Do we know how the FED factory assigned serial numbers?

Philipp

[outfitter]

Do we know how the FED factory assigned serial numbers?

Philipp
The numbers appear to be sequential; at least they correlate with production changes and the evolution of inscriptions. The first number appears to be 31. The Fed-S appear to be regular production Feds taken out of stock and converted. In Fed-S cameras I have the following serial numbers:

65,xxx - YCCP inscription (Princelle shows photo of #59,309 with same markings)
145,xxx - CCCP inscription
172, xxx - CCCP inscription but 1/1000s marked by tick mark but speed number is not engraved - came with coated lens and case markings that I interpret as military.

Does anyone know why 1/1000s was needed given the slow emulsion speeds of the day (I think ASA 80 was the top)? Aerial photography?

Michael

[outfitter]

To my best knowledge, no other Soviet rangefinder cameras was equipped with this lens.


Zhang
The 50/2 was announced at the same time as the 28mm, the telephoto and the macro lens so it may have been on offer as a separate lens. Then again I don't know to what extent these were actually avaliable. The macro and telephoto (at least the second version) appear common but I haven't seen many wide angles offered for sale on the collectors market - I have one in the original blue paper box.

Michael

[zhang xk]

The 50/2 was announced at the same time as the 28mm, the telephoto and the macro lens so it may have been on offer as a separate lens. Then again I don't know to what extent these were actually avaliable. The macro and telephoto (at least the second version) appear common but I haven't seen many wide angles offered for sale on the collectors market - I have one in the original blue paper box.

Michael

I have a very rare Fed Berdsk with a 1/1000 top speed. I think the camera was made for the rare Fed B in the beginning. Body parts are with pounched holes for a slow speed mechanism, but was made do for a slow speedless Fed 1 for lacking of parts during the war. I think Leica already offered a camera with 1/1000 top speed, and the Russians were trying to catch up?

Zhang

[rxmd]

Contaxes had 1/1250 in the 1930s - we might well ask ourselves what that was for...

[outfitter]

Contaxes had 1/1250 in the 1930s - we might well ask ourselves what that was for...
Probably because they could. The wonderful whacky world of marketing.

Michael

[outfitter]

I have a very rare Fed Berdsk with a 1/1000 top speed. I think the camera was made for the rare Fed B in the beginning. Body parts are with pounched holes for a slow speed mechanism, but was made do for a slow speedless Fed 1 for lacking of parts during the war. I think Leica already offered a camera with 1/1000 top speed, and the Russians were trying to catch up?

Zhang
Is the hole punched for the slow speed mechanism through the vulcanite or just the inner body shell? The only oddities (out of sequence features) on my Berdsk is a smooth release button and a small pin bottom. I guess they were truly parts cameras. Saul Kaminsky of KievUSA had two Fed-B cameras he picked up in Russia when he strated importing Soviet cameras (he also had a TSVVS), I wonder what happend to them.

Michael

[zhang xk]

Is the hole punched for the slow speed mechanism through the vulcanite or just the inner body shell? The only oddities (out of sequence features) on my Berdsk is a smooth release button and a small pin bottom. I guess they were truly parts cameras. Saul Kaminsky of KievUSA had two Fed-B cameras he picked up in Russia when he strated importing Soviet cameras (he also had a TSVVS), I wonder what happend to them.

Michael

A hole was punched on the top plate under the cover, and I remember the inner parts are also different. But no holes were punched through the vulcanite. The release button is similar to a Fed S's. I am not sure what is a small pin bottom. The bottom on mine is similar to any pre-war Fed-1s. It came with a one botton leather case. My 1st post war Fed 1 version has a smooth release botton.

Cheers,

Zhang

[outfitter]

I am not sure what is a small pin bottom. The bottom on mine is similar to any pre-war Fed-1s.

Cheers,

Zhang
On one end of the removable bottom is a locking key and on the other end is a hole for the fixing pin or stud on the body. The diameter of this pin was greatly enlarged around serial #80,xxx. My Fed-1s #65,xxx has a small pin all the others a large pin. My Berdsk at #182,xxx has a small pin indicating earlier parts were used (body shell and bottom).

Michael

[SteveM(PA)]

I only now just clicked on this thread, because my 4K has caused me nothing but heartache :(

Brian, you need to get hold of one of those lenses! The Fed 3.5 is so great, and I was musing as to why there was never a 2.8 collapsible (does the 1-61 need to be so big?) and behold, there is actually a 2.0! A proper collimation, a trip to Arax, and I wonder what we have here?

[zhang xk]

On one end of the removable bottom is a locking key and on the other end is a hole for the fixing pin or stud on the body. The diameter of this pin was greatly enlarged around serial #80,xxx. My Fed-1s #65,xxx has a small pin all the others a large pin. My Berdsk at #182,xxx has a small pin indicating earlier parts were used (body shell and bottom).

Michael

Thanks for the tip. This is very interesting. My 72xxx has a small pin, and 82xxx has a large pin. My Berdsk 179xxx has a large pin, and Fed-C at 141xxx also has a large pin. I have 3 small pin Fed-1s, and an I-10 lens with a number 7408 on the lens mount. Is this the lens S/N ? If so, it is a very early lens.:)

Cheers,

Zhang

[outfitter]

I have 3 small pin Fed-1s, and an I-10 lens with a number 7408 on the lens mount. Is this the lens S/N ? If so, it is a very early lens.:)

Cheers,

Zhang
Hard to say really; study of these numbers is complicated by the fact that lenses could be switched. The lowest number lens I have is #10,xxx and that came attached to a Fed type 1b with the brass viewfinder bezels (serial #9,xxx). On the very earliest lenses (I need one) the rear plate with the distance scale had only one screw and that was fatter than on later lenses. Also the front element was more forward. Is the early lens close to this pattern or indistinguisable from the usual pre-war Fed 50 (I-10) lens?

Michael

[zhang xk]

Hard to say really; study of these numbers is complicated by the fact that lenses could be switched. The lowest number lens I have is #10,xxx and that came attached to a Fed type 1b with the brass viewfinder bezels (serial #9,xxx). On the very earliest lenses (I need one) the rear plate with the distance scale had only one screw and that was fatter than on later lenses. Also the front element was more forward. Is the early lens close to this pattern or indistinguisable from the usual pre-war Fed 50 (I-10) lens?

Michael

Hi,

I checked all my uncoated I-10s, and there is even a I-10 with a S/N 428! It has two screws on the rare plate, but the infinate release button pin is taller, and the pressed pattern around the pin is finer. These two early I-10s look identical. I will post some images FYI.

Kind Regards

Zhang

[outfitter]

Hi,

I checked all my uncoated I-10s, and there is even a I-10 with a S/N 428! It has two screws on the rare plate, but the infinate release button pin is taller, and the pressed pattern around the pin is finer. These two early I-10s look identical. I will post some images FYI.

Kind Regards

Zhang
I have never seen one but have collected a number of photos of the earliest, here are two:

[outfitter]

Zhang you have inspired me to look at all my I-10 lenses and I found some interesting things:

1) the fine pattern around release button collar is non-sequential and is mixed in with the coarse pattern among early lenses - obviously they just came out of a parts bin containing both types.
2) the earliest lenses had only one stop pin which was high; next earliest had two stop pins and both were high; the last (until the end) had two stop pins but the one that stopped the release button was low and while the pin at infinity was high.
3) uncoated lenses were sometimes put together with parts from coated lenses: I have a low number ( 4,734) uncoated lens with a low stop pin - probably a back plate from a later coated lens (the numbers appear to start all over again when they changed the f-stops and coated the lenses) as the focusing tab is at 5 o'clock when placed on an early body.

I wish more of this stuff was around to collect; eBay has dried up as a reasonable source of honest early cameras and here in the USA there are few other sources.

Regards,
Michael
Michael

[zhang xk]

Zhang you have inspired me to look at all my I-10 lenses and I found some interesting things:

1) the fine pattern around release button collar is non-sequential and is mixed in with the coarse pattern among early lenses - obviously they just came out of a parts bin containing both types.
2) the earliest lenses had only one stop pin which was high; next earliest had two stop pins and both were high; the last (until the end) had two stop pins but the one that stopped the release button was low and while the pin at infinity was high.
3) uncoated lenses were sometimes put together with parts from coated lenses: I have a low number ( 4,734) uncoated lens with a low stop pin - probably a back plate from a later coated lens (the numbers appear to start all over again when they changed the f-stops and coated the lenses) as the focusing tab is at 5 o'clock when placed on an early body.

I wish more of this stuff was around to collect; eBay has dried up as a reasonable source of honest early cameras and here in the USA there are few other sources.

Regards,
Michael
Michael

Hi Michael,

Now I checked my coated I-10 with stop pins. There are two of them. One has a fine pattern collar around the stop pin, and two numbers, 4293 on the back of lens mount, and 085446 on the front. Another one has a coarce pattern, and only one number 5364 on the back of lens mount. It seems to me that these lenses were assembled with parts from left over parts lots.

I noted that all I-10 has a far durable chrome plating. None of mine has brassing or scracthes that are often found on I-22 or I-50. Many I-10s look very new.

So the research continues...:D

Cheers,

Zhang