NOT WORK SAFE - The Girl In The Corner (M8)

[SteveRD1]

Took this with my M8 and 35 Cron ASPH..

[Lemures-Ex]

High iso, or heavily cropped? Or did you add the grain?

Quite a "filmy" look to it. I like that Leica tried for a more film-like look with the M8. My Pentax K10D has a subtle film-like quality as well, at least the RAW files do. I don't shoot JPEG so I don't know about them.

I like the photo but I think perhaps the blackness in the face area is a bit too dark. I feel it would benefit from just a tad of shadow detail there.

Jared

[ywenz]

Sorry, this picture gives me the creeps. Reminds me of the girl from The Ring. I'm not a fan of this one Steve..

[naos]

I give Steve props for sharing something a little different from what's usually displayed here. I really like it. Like Lemures said, it's got a film quality to it. Keep up the good work Steve.

[Rodinal Addict]

Eww, looks like her face/head was blocked out with something . Like the grain effect though.

[aizan]

i thought it had more of an "audition" feel to it.

[naos]

Rodinal,
It looks Steve had the model cover her face with her hair.

[SteveRD1]

yes, she had her hair covering her face. I added some grain on PS to give it a more film-ish look. It had a sorta creepy look, but I liked it.

I have a few more with a lighter mood to them though. Thanks for the comments.

[Lemures-Ex]

Rodinal,
It looks Steve had the model cover her face with her hair.

I'm fairly certain he darkened that area in post as well, considering the lightness of the rest of the image and the absolute black of the face area.

Was that what you had in mind or did the model just prefer to be anonymous?

[shutterflower]

Sorry, this picture gives me the creeps. Reminds me of the girl from The Ring. I'm not a fan of this one Steve..


I actually like it for its creepiness.

[Rodinal Addict]

OK, I like her face in the frame better. Still would like the grain too. Robin

[SteveRD1]

here is one version of the 1st one with more detail in the hair...

[Rodinal Addict]

i like her eyes.

[naos]

Steve, I like the second version you posted better. The one with more hair detail.

[George Bonanno]

I don't care for the first pose but the second pose is a very good look. Personally, I would like to see the pic taken with a 50mm lens as it would lessen the distorted features. Head on stuff just looks better with a 50mm and weird angles typically look better (visually exciting) with 35mm and shorter. Oh, and that air conditioner-window frame thing in the upper right is a bummer. Nice focus on the eyes though. Just my personal take on the scene.

Loose the 35 and shoot with a 50.

Best,
George

[SteveRD1]

Thanks for the comments. I did shoot with the 50 (I LOVE ths 50 ASPH. My fave lens!)

[SteveRD1]

Found another. Converted to BW.

[SteveRD1]

If anyone is interested, the entire series is posted on my zenfolio page

http://stevem7.zenfolio.com/p683045741/

Thanks!

[George Bonanno]

Steve,

8 & 9 are excellent.

Best,
George

[Lemures-Ex]

Something most people don't realize: Artistic nude photos are some of the hardest photos to capture. The human body is so sensitive to angle and lighting and the average person is very critical of the nude body. Your model is great and you have managed to capture her very well in some of these photos. My girlfriend will be visiting me next week. I think you have inspired me to try some nudes with her. She is my best model by far :) Thanks Steve!

Jared

[ChrisN]

Let me state up front: I do not object to nudity.

However, the title of this thread needs to be changed to reflect the content - it is not "Work safe" (ie it could earn you a reprimand if viewed at work).

PS - with the crop factor, what are the 35mm equivalences for the 35 and 50 lenses on the M8?

[naos]

Steve, I agree with ChrisN. You've got some wonderful photos, but you should put (not work safe) in the title so someone dosn't unknowingly get in trouble at work. Btw, Keep sending in your excellent work!

[stephen.s1]

PS - with the crop factor, what are the 35mm equivalences for the 35 and 50 lenses on the M8?

Focal length divided by three. Now add one of these thirds and you'll have "four thirds" the equivalent focal length.

[SteveRD1]

Im not sure how to change the title of my original post. I went to "edit" but it does not allow me to change the title. If anyone knows if and how I can I will change it. Sorry about that. The original image didnt even have nudity but I did end up putting those others in. Thanks for the comments.

Steve

[galavanter]

You know very well that 5 months ago I accidentally discovered that you are the owner of a hard core pay teen porn site, and posted a thread about it here on RFF. You were posting links here at RFF to your pbase account, where you had another link to your porn site, which you referred to as your "news/blog" site. Jorge, the owner at the time, merely deleted that link. I would have banned you then were it up to me.

It's not just the fact that I don't expect to be played that way, especially when I am here on RFF. Neither is it the porn. It is what I found on the four "news pages" of your porn site, the pics and text you use to entice people to give you their credit card numbers.

"Somehow, we have a knack for finding girls that normally would not do an XXX video. Yes, real, pretty, sweet girls doing nasty things. You gotta love it!"

There you brag about finding "fresh new bitches" for your site. You brag about talking young girls into performing anal sex for the first time on camera. You brag about convincing girls to do porn when they don't have enough money to pay their rent.

But the most telling example is "Smelly Shelly". Your caption under her photo reads, "Smelly Shelly on the left is a true crack ho. She wanted that $20, and yes, we SHOT her in a solo! BUT we dare not ever release it!"

She does look troubled. Her face is dirty and she has one crossed eye. She is holding up her drivers license to the camera, to prove she is eighteen? How anyone could humiliate another human being to this degree is beyond me, and you do it for money.

In the ensuing months however I have remained silent. The world turns. You have become an expert on high dollar photography, posting your M8 snapshots all over the internet, including your memorable "homeless series". I was touched. The one of the guy with the money in his hand (presumably from you) is my favorite.

The other day I came across this "series" of an extremely emaciated young woman, first on dpreview, then the Leica User forum, and now here. Although she is young and attractive, she also looks very sickly. Her physique is very unnatural. There is a reason for that.

Today I had the thought to revisit your porn site. I was curious about something. It didn't take but a few clicks to satisfy that curiosity.
There I found, on the front page of your "news" pages, nude photos of the same emaciated girl.

"Tonya - 19 - video coming soon. I just have to talk her into it 1st! These two photos are just a taste. Tonya has a full photo set and we are trying to get her fotr a video (well, begging her :) I think she is ready to give in. Until then, more photos of her can be found in the members area in the bonus section."

Tanya, Toni, whoever you are, if you are reading this please stop doing whatever you are doing to make you so emaciated, and get as far away from this POS as you can right now.

[atufte1@mac.com]

What this photographer does for a living is really not your business, as long as nothing "hardcore" is posted here, it should not matter, this images do look very good an have an artistic feel to them, nothing "porn" about this... i visited he's site (not linking to it here tought :-) and all i can say is, there is nothing illegal with this, yes it's porn but nothing obscure or illegal, so why are you trying to bring this man down...? Ok, so you don't
like pornography, but man get over it, stop nosing around if you are offended by this
kind of things....

I think is good to see photographers from the porn industry with an eye for nice artistic
images like this, which are very rare, most of the crap you see is completly without soul
and only to show you the "act" of some sort, if more images like this got into the porn industry it might even be more appreciated/accepted...

The only negative thing i can say about this series is, "to my liking" the girl is way to thin and should really start eating at Mc Donalds more often :-)
But working with models on a daily bases, i can tell you this is nothing specific to the
porn industry, but way to "regular" also in the fashion industry....

So start eating girls....

[Ash]

Steve I enjoyed those photo's and didn't find them pornographic in the slightest.

[Lemures-Ex]

I wasn't going to say anything, but I agree with Alexander. I don't have anything in particular against porn, what a person does is their own business and the people involved don't have to be, but I do agree it doesn't belong here. On the other hand this is not porn. Sure, artistic nudes are sexual to a point but that is what makes them appealing. These shots are actually rather sweet and well captured, with no obvious pornographic intention. So leave them be and don't publicly accuse the photographer. Next time send him a PM if you have a gripe.

On the eating issue, I happen to find the skinnyness attractive. I'm not saying you have to be skinny to be attractive, or that every girl this skinny is attractive, or even that the average "proper" weight is unnatractive. I think that if someone feels better about their body weiging 98lbs instead of 140lbs then who are you to tell them they are wrong? If you are looking at it strictly from a health point then obesity is a much worse problem. And besides that, some people really are just that thin so you shouldn't assume she has an eating disorder.

Jared

[Ash]

I'm not even going to read all the arguments in this thread.

I WILL however impose my god-given right to throw around my own views.


http://domai.com/text/DOMAI-style.html

read that

then decide whether you have a problem with nudity.



I have held back from posting nudes of my best friend because I'm sure that a girl comfortable with her body and being nude will be misconstrued by the more up-tight crowd here. I'm sure that her nipple piercings would be considered pornographic in some way.

Cmon people lighten up.

[Lemures-Ex]

Ash, don't hold back just because people will give you crap. The worst that could happen is that the mods may remove the photos.

Don't give into the pressure of the man! :p

Jared

[Ash]

Nah, it's more fun to watch the bashers and thrashers come out the woodwork when there's a juicy topic like this.

I'll wait out. You can see my photo's of nudes when I'm a famous and published photography :D

[libra3]

Took this with my M8 and 35 Cron ASPH..

mihne gott, she so naked!!! Some super pic man, but where does one get the confidence to get out there and snap so many people? I just don't know anymore.

[SteveRD1]

WOW! Ive been outed! 1st of all, let me say that I have been posting on the Leica forums for years, since I aquired the D2 when it came out. 99% of what I shoot is normal, family stuff. 1% models for the website which I did NOT promote here or on RFF or on DP. I NEVER linked my pbase model page here or anywhere. I link to my personal pbase page which is not even teh same acct as my nude images page. How anyone found my website is beyond me as I never gave it out. BUT I now know where the extra sales have come from the past couple of days, so for that I thank you.

It's funny. To the guy (galavanter) who had his big write up on me here and RFF. You do NOT know me or the models I shoot. You obviusly do not know anything about business, and yes, I run a legitimate, legal business that tens of thousands of others run every day. An adult web site is just that, for adults. Ive been in this industry since 1996 and have done very well with it. I am married, have a child and run it professionaly. I have never once touched a model or been unprofessional with a model EVER.


As a matter of fact, the way I get new models is from their friends reffering them after they work with me. I am often known as the nicest guy in the adult website buz. As for my news page at my pay site..do you honestly think that is serious? You mention the photo of the cross eyed girl. SHE HELPED ME photoshop that pic and I still talk with her to this day! It added humor to the news section. It was not real, it was 100% photoshopped. Her eye, her skin, her breast...it's entertainment, and she gave 100% consent! Keep in mind these things are written in a way to entertain and bring back visitors. Everything is not as it seems.

Also, the girl I posted here was a VERY sweet girl. She is 21, and has already shot a video for me. Same day I did the photos. I didnt have to talk her into anything as she came to me as a refferal WANTING to shoot. She loved working for me and will again. Most of these girls do this day in and day out. Its what they do. Some are real 1st timers, but if so I have 2-3 meetings with them BEFORE I shoot them so I know they know what they are getting in to.

My site is one of the tamest on the net actually, and i like to think its done with some style and class. The models I shoot think so, and they all have a great time. Sounds to me like the post ragging on me was from some religious whack-job who is ANTI sexuality. There is nothing wrong with the human body or sex, or casual sex or legal pon sites. Get over it.

Also, just to confirm and so everyone knows here..

#1 - I never posted any link here (or any photo forum) for my adult website nor even hinted I had one. EVER.

#2 - the guy who posted this info on me (galavanter) must have investigated and somehow figured it out by an old post where I used a pbase photo in a forum. He obviouly found teh URL of the pic, went to the gallery and found the info. He then decided to let everyone here know about it.

#3 - I posted these images becuase I used the m8, and I liked them. I agree themodel is way too thin and I talked with her about it though she did not seem to interested in me lecturing her about eating :)

So Mr Galavanter, mind your own business becuase what I do for a living is no concern of yours. You can go on with your odd beliefs but don't preach it to everyone else. All you did by posting this info is cause an increase in traffic to my website, AND send me some sales. Obviusly people watch adult films as its a huge industry with a million or so web sites online right now. Mr Galavanter, you are clueless and have no idea about anything. Again, you do not know me, know the models or know anything about my business (or maybe ANY type of business) or how I run it.

I am not banned becuase I did nothing wrong. I do not come here and promote ANYTHING but my M8 images :)

Steve

[cmogi10]

WOW! Ive been outed! 1st of all, let me say that I have been posting on the Leica forums for years, since I aquired the D2 when it came out. 99% of what I shoot is normal, family stuff. 1% models for the website which I did NOT promote here or on RFF or on DP. I NEVER linked my pbase model page here or anywhere. I link to my personal pbase page which is not even teh same acct as my nude images page. How anyone found my website is beyond me as I never gave it out. BUT I now know where the extra sales have come from the past couple of days, so for that I thank you.

It's funny. To the guy (galavanter) who had his big write up on me here and RFF. You do NOT know me or the models I shoot. You obviusly do not know anything about business, and yes, I run a legitimate, legal business that tens of thousands of others run every day. An adult web site is just that, for adults. Ive been in this industry since 1996 and have done very well with it. I am married, have a child and run it professionaly. I have never once touched a model or been unprofessional with a model EVER.


As a matter of fact, the way I get new models is from their friends reffering them after they work with me. I am often known as the nicest guy in the adult website buz. As for my news page at my pay site..do you honestly think that is serious? You mention the photo of the cross eyed girl. SHE HELPED ME photoshop that pic and I still talk with her to this day! It added humor to the news section. It was not real, it was 100% photoshopped. Her eye, her skin, her breast...it's entertainment, and she gave 100% consent! Keep in mind these things are written in a way to entertain and bring back visitors. Everything is not as it seems.

Also, the girl I posted here was a VERY sweet girl. She is 21, and has already shot a video for me. Same day I did the photos. I didnt have to talk her into anything as she came to me as a refferal WANTING to shoot. She loved working for me and will again. Most of these girls do this day in and day out. Its what they do. Some are real 1st timers, but if so I have 2-3 meetings with them BEFORE I shoot them so I know they know what they are getting in to.

My site is one of the tamest on the net actually, and i like to think its done with some style and class. The models I shoot think so, and they all have a great time. Sounds to me like the post ragging on me was from some religious whack-job who is ANTI sexuality. There is nothing wrong with the human body or sex, or casual sex or legal pon sites. Get over it.

Also, just to confirm and so everyone knows here..

#1 - I never posted any link here (or any photo forum) for my adult website nor even hinted I had one. EVER.

#2 - the guy who posted this info on me (galavanter) must have investigated and somehow figured it out by an old post where I used a pbase photo in a forum. He obviouly found teh URL of the pic, went to the gallery and found the info. He then decided to let everyone here know about it.

#3 - I posted these images becuase I used the m8, and I liked them. I agree themodel is way too thin and I talked with her about it though she did not seem to interested in me lecturing her about eating :)

So Mr Galavanter, mind your own business becuase what I do for a living is no concern of yours. You can go on with your odd beliefs but don't preach it to everyone else. All you did by posting this info is cause an increase in traffic to my website, AND send me some sales. Obviusly people watch adult films as its a huge industry with a million or so web sites online right now. Mr Galavanter, you are clueless and have no idea about anything. Again, you do not know me, know the models or know anything about my business (or maybe ANY type of business) or how I run it.

I am not banned becuase I did nothing wrong. I do not come here and promote ANYTHING but my M8 images :)

Steve


Nothing but class, well said, well defended. Cheers

[fdigital]

Good on you. I dont like the first shot personally but the rest of the series is quite good. I also agree the girl is a little skinny, but each to their own.


Whatever you do in your spare time, legal or illegal is your own thing. Its nobody elses business.

Kudos to it being legal.

Cheers,
gav

[naos]

Galavanter,

Ninety-nine percent of advertising in the adult industry shouldn't be taken seriously. Mostly it's to get the potential customers attention. Porn nowdays isn't as seedy as the movies/media/websites lead you to believe. I've met and shot quite a few industry girls myself and most of them are actually very professional and buisness minded.

In regards to Steve using RFF to direct users to his pay-site, I haven't encountered anything such behaviour;,, but since it's been brought up....I am kinda interested to see what it's like.

Steve could you please send me a PM with a link to your paysite?

Best regards.

[Ash]

Steve you touched on it but didn't make it very clear to those who wouldn't 'know'.

Amateurs and some people starting up won't get any cash, they might just get a few prints, or even pay for the first photoshoot to get a portfolio together

BUT!!!!

In the adult industry. Girls get PAID.

You may think you're a good photographer so you try and sell some prints. Adult-business girls think they have a good body or something unique so they go out and sell an image of themselves to a client/photographer/site owner. That's what it is now, it's business and it's a personal choice by each model what they do and how they do it.

[pfogle]

people love to fantasize - as a UK citizen, I'm often horrified by the violence that is acceptable in US movies - and yes, it influences young people to go out and use guns.

Likewise, people fantasize about sex, and the porn industry plays to those fantasies. The reality in both cases is very similar - people in Hollywood mostly don't go round shooting each other, and pornographers are mostly not into abuse or sex slavery - they couldn't stay in business if they were. We're talking about acting here - this is performance, not reality.

Nevertheless, there is a disturbing amount of violence in society, and here in Europe at the moment, there's a disturbing amount of sexual abuse of women.

Please let's not get the reality confused with the fantasy...

[nightfly]

I wish you would post the link to your porn site. You do very good work and I for one would like to see more of it.

If you don't like pictures of naked women, don't look at them.

[BillBingham2]

Phil,

Please do not forget about the video game industry. In 1990 I was at a world wide developers conference and I voiced concern about games becoming too much of a focus for kids, wrong audience, big time.

IMHO, Steve is a very welcome member. Would anyone feel differently if he were say a model or actor, of course not! What about a lawyer who chases ambulances or a sales person who cheats people? We have no clue as to how people live their lives, we have a snippet, a moment in time in text, some times in pictures. Would I want my sons in that business, I'm not sure, I know I would not throw them out of my life if they did. I want them to be happy, safe, and healthy. I want them to raise a good family and be a better father than I've been to them.

Hang in there Steve, lots of folks may not agree with what you do, but we will support your right to do it!

B2 (;->

[oscroft]

Sorry, this picture gives me the creeps. Reminds me of the girl from The Ring
My first thought was "Wow, that reminds me of the girl from The Ring - I love it" :D

Oh, and I'd like to say to Steve that I find nothing objectionable at all in the images posted here - in fact, there are some very nice ones. (And, of course, whatever you legally do for a living is none of anybody else's business).

And I can't help noting that galavanter, while apparently despising "porn" sites, also appears to visit them - if you don't like Steve's site, you shouldn't keep going there.

[aizan]

well, i wouldn't go so far as to say that these photos are artistic, but they're basically inoffensive to me. i haven't seen steve's paysite, but if he makes good porn, my opinion of him is just that much better.

[clarence]

No one has pointed out yet that this ties in quite well with our current poll.

[Sailor Ted]

galavanter,
This is an incredible indictment. Personally I feel people have the right to shoot or view porn if they wish but I do understand your points and point of view. However to make such accusations and allude to information you have gained through a source without naming said source is slander. You should post your links for all to see or PM them to anyone who is interested as not everyone will take the full breadth of your statement at face value (and they should not). Please count me among said people and PM me the link if you will not make it available here.

Thanks,
ST

PS. I just read Steves response so Never Mind! : )

[photogdave]

I wish this can of worms had stayed closed. I prefer the naive point of view that we're all just normal guys and gals doing normal things in our normal lives.
So here we go...
I think jumping blindly to Steve's defence is nearly as bad as the original accusation. Why? Because we don't have all the facts. He could be the dirtiest, sickest pornographer of all time but he's asking us to take his word that everything is professional, the girls ask him to shoot them, they're all very sweet etc. Or everything he says is 100 % true and he is the nicest guy in adult entertainment. We just don't know.
There is a difference between true pornographers who photograph and video people performing sexual acts, and photographers who shoot nudes or exotic imagery.
I've worked in the retail business selling high end video equipment. A good portion of our clientele was the former, and let me tell you, without fail these pornographers were scumbags and so were their cheap "models". These people are immoral and mean. I believe they get into this work because they are truly too stupid to do anything else. They think they are smarter than everyone else because they make so much money at this but they are just morons who can barely figure out how to pay their bills.
Am I saying this is the case with Steve? Absolutely not!
I have also assisted on photo shoots for Penthouse etc. and that is where you see the other side of the coin. Professional shooters and professional models. No exploitation, coersion etc.
Am I saying this is the case with Steve? Absolutely not!
I wouldn't make a judgement until I see exactly what he does. Either way he should feel welcome to be a contributing member here because none of us should feel that what we do for a living has anything to do with our status on this forum.
I hope Steve is not the kind of guy who shoots nasty sex stuff with drugged-up barely legal teens. But let's not make any assumptions!

[oscroft]

I think jumping blindly to Steve's defence is nearly as bad as the original accusation. Why? Because we don't have all the facts. He could be the dirtiest, sickest pornographer of all time but he's asking us to take his word that everything is professional, the girls ask him to shoot them, they're all very sweet etc. Or everything he says is 100 % true and he is the nicest guy in adult entertainment. We just don't know
I think that's missing the point. Steve doesn't have to defend himself, and whatever claims he makes are irrelevant. The point is that unless someone has evidence that he is doing something illegal then what he does for a living is nobody else's business.

[Jocko]

For several years, early in my career as a writer, I worked for a small independent film company. We shared studio space and personnel with one of the UK’s leading fetish photographers. I shared his darkroom. I knew sex-industry people socially and professionally.

As this may suggest, I am not exactly prudish. Furthermore I never saw a hint of exploitation. As some have noted, the mainstream of the sex industry is extremely professional. To be honest, it seemed utterly banal.

But I cannot support the tide of this thread nor the identification of pornography with freedom. It sometimes helps if we return to basics. The word pornography actually means “writing about prostitutes” - but we might translate it as “prostituted art”. The pornographer is no more a creative artist than the kid flipping burgers in Macdonalds. Both work in an industry whose supreme good is to force-feed you overpriced nutritionless crap.

The freedom of expression implicit in pornography is the same “freedom” that would make every meal a “Happy Meal”, every store a Walmart and every human being a passive consumer of mass-produced ersatz rubbish. It is the exact opposite of freedom. Pornography does not exist to express a vision, to liberate or celebrate sexuality. It exists to take cash from masturbating boys and foolish old men. That was at least the view of everyone I knew in the industry. My friends called their clients “the wankers”, which summarised exactly how they saw them: so many fat pigs, oinking for swill and destined for sausages. Pornography is not about “pictures of naked women”. It is about selling an illusion of intimacy, which, when you think of it, is unutterably sad.

Human sexuality is a glorious thing, endlessly diverse, a root of love, that supreme mystery of being. The erotic frees the soul, the pornographic strangles it. It replaces the richness of real experience, imagination and emotion with sterile, dehumanised mechanically recovered pap, knowing it sells trash and that the customer will never be satisfied.

That isn’t freedom. And it certainly isn’t erotic. Let's not pretend it is anything other than a thoroughly wretched business.

Cheers, Ian

[steve garza]

The nudes posted by Steve are fine. They don't particularly appeal to me, nor do I think they are bad. No matter what Steve does for a living, it's no one's business except his own whether or not you agree w/ pornography. As long as he does not promote his business at this site he is certainly within his rights to remain a member. My issue is with Galavanter. Who does he think he is to go around revealing the business of other people? It is twisted, moralistic and just cheap to attack other members here for their personal business. Perhaps Galavanter is so morally superior that he has that right. I for one, am not.

[photogdave]

Well said Ian.

[oscroft]

Human sexuality is a glorious thing, endlessly diverse, a root of love, that supreme mystery of being. The erotic frees the soul, the pornographic strangles it. It replaces the richness of real experience, imagination and emotion with sterile, dehumanised mechanically recovered pap, knowing it sells trash and that the customer will never be satisfied.

That isn’t freedom. And it certainly isn’t erotic. Let's not pretend it is anything other than a thoroughly wretched business.
I agree, but nobody has been posting any pornography here, so what's the problem?

[Jocko]

I agree, but nobody has been posting any pornography here, so what's the problem?

Well Alan, several earlier posts implied that anyone who had objections to the pictures or the approval expressed by some members regarding pornography was either an enemy of freedom or a prude. I found this absurd and wished to express an alternative view.

Which I did.

Cheers, Ian

[oscroft]

Well Alan, several earlier posts implied that anyone who had objections to the pictures or the approval expressed by some members regarding pornography was either an enemy of freedom or a prude. I found this absurd and wished to express an alternative view
Ah, OK, fair enough, I'd mistakenly thought it was criticism of Steve himself - my apologies.

[Jocko]

Ah, OK, fair enough, I'd mistakenly thought it was criticism of Steve himself - my apologies.

None needed :)

The point about freedom is that we can exchange views.

All the best, Ian

[back alley]

hate to break up the party but i'm going to close this thread.

i think everyone has had their say and more than enough free adverts for everyone also.

joe