Point & Shoot for Street Photography ?

[ruben]

I don't believe myself, nor many of us may believe it either, but since a past thread about some fashion photography alternating his MF shooting with a P&S, the idea of a P&S to use for street photography is hunting me quite a lot.

Why not ? Let's start with why yes. First, I find myself all the time preseting my camera and preseting again in order to find myself at the right moment for pointing, or let's be more accurate, framing and shooting. This doesn't embrace all type of situations, but many. If so why not going for the real thing ? In many many situations the choice of f/stop and speed is just a liability.

Point and shoots are small, stupid cameras, but some of them are reported as accurate focusing and exposing. Small size and amateur looking is not but an advantage in the streets.

Therefore, if we do not think about a P&S as an all powered manual camera, to be compared to our f/1.7 lenses, but as a limited one for certain types of situations to be done efectively, why not ?

As for the cons, within the mentioned limitations, I find just one basic weak point: a very small viewfinder.

And as for another issue I have no idea about is shutter noise.

What do you think ?

Ruben

[Biggles]

I did quite well with an original model, non-zoom Olympus Stylus for impromptu street photography, on those occasions when I was busy being a tourist first and the photographer-persona took a back seat. Only problems I recall were (1) needing to remember to override the flash in moderate light, and (2) the Zeep! Zwoop! Snap! noises from the very slightly laggy autofocus/shutter sequence.

On the plus side of the ledger, its lens was capable of very good sharpness, especially when I forced it to stop down by using 400 or 1600-speed films, and the autofocus was always 100% dead nuts on. And it *never* underexposed in daylight. Never. Not once. Brilliant little camera, that.

Didn't miss that many shots due to the camera's quirks, and got plenty that would have gotten away had I not had any camera at all. The first rule of gunfighting is "have a gun". Same principle of readiness applies here.

I still carry the thing in my packsack, daily.

[Rafael]

Check out Alex Majoli's work. He shoots everything with small digital p&s cameras.

[shadowfox]

Good question, Ruben. I often wonder about this myself. I find that when I'm out testing my P&S like Olympus Pen-EE2, or even scale-focused cameras like XA2, I fiddle less with the camera and was able to put more time scouting for good picture candidates.

[ccs]

I used Yashica T2's and T3's for several years, back in the mid to late nineties and I thought they were great cameras. I sometimes wished for more manual control and tried an Oly XA for a time, but ended up prefering the T's. With digital, I can't think of a better small, inexpensive set up, than the XT and a 24/2.8 or 35/2.0.

[Todd.Hanz]

Hexar AF and Oly P&S are some I've used, they become liberating at first but the want for manual settings brings me back each time (though the hexar has some pretty good manual capabilities).

Todd

[icebear]

Hi Ruben,

yes, of course there are fine P&S cameras out there but I guess most of us use a RF for a reason. Most important for me my camera clicks when I press the shutter and not when the camera is ready... Millions of average customers are happy with a digital P&S and use maybe 20% of its' capabilities because they never bother to read anything else but the quick guide/introduction not the whole manual book. No thanks, not for me ;) .

[Joe Mondello]

I carry a Canon G7 with me everywhere.

I use the camera in "mute" mode and it is virtually silent.

It has manual controls -- including manual focus capability (not what you are used to, but controllable nonetheless).

Some shots are here. No claims for anything very good, but anyway . . .

http://www.flickr.com/photos/musicandlight/sets/

These sets are all G7: Indian dance, In the Pocket, Beatles tribute, Sarasota 2006, Grand Central, UMGF in New York City, Night G7 and canon G7 First Shots.

HTH.

Because the G7 has a shutter lag, I am going to try setting one of the custom user banks to manual focus which should virtually eliminate the lag.

[ClaremontPhoto]

Any P&S shutter is going to be almost silent.

A leaf shutter is way quieter than even the best focal plane shutters because there much less mass to move and to stop.

I've done some work with basic disposables, but you really need good light. Although you have good light in Israel, so that's ok.

Also, I work with a Leica Minilux often for its f2.4 Summarit lens and auto everything, with manual control for the 1% of the time I need it.

If I were looking for an inexpensive, but quality, film P&S right now I think I'd be looking at the clamshell Olympus's. In Europe they are sub branded 'mju', that might that may be different in other regions.

With a 'tourist' camera people do not notice you. Just as many here have said that a rangefinder is less threatening than an SLR, I think A P&S is less threatening than a rangefinder.

See if you can pick up a disposable in Barbie Pink or Yellow Submarine. Make out like you're making a photo of that church across the street. But really you're making a photo of that young guy on his scooter looking at the young woman in a short skirt. Classic street. And neither of them will even notice you.

Let us know what you decide and how you get on.

[ruben]

Hi Todd,
I understand you and could add that for my past, not just to carry but even paying money for a P&S is a kind of self rape of myself. But my point isn't to replace my cameras with a P&S but just add one besides for those situations I find myself walking here and there for something, and snapshooting. No doubt a P&S is very limited.

Hi Jon,
Well, according to the abovementioned it is already really hard for me to wear a stupid P&S, so kindly relief me from the disposables unless you want me to take my life once and for all.....:) True I am a non-conformist but a disposable, ho man that's too much. At least give me some time with a P&S to start with.

Cheers,
Ruben

PS
Another factor to be taken into account, I think, and it was somewhat touched at the thread, it that there could be a difference between a P&S in the hands of person knowledgeable of photography like any of us, and the use a non knowledgeable person can give it, as most of their owners. I guess any of us can squeeze much more from a P&S, once we understand its programation.

[ruben]

Check out Alex Majoli's work. He shoots everything with small digital p&s cameras.

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-6468-7844


http://www.magnumphotos.com/Archive/C.aspx?VP=Mod_ViewBoxInsertion.ViewBoxInsertion_VP age&R=2K7O3R394VH1&RP=Mod_ViewBox.ViewBoxThumb_VPage&CT=Album&SP=Album

[DougK]

I find that my point-and-shoots are my most used cameras for all types of photography. They can go anywhere and, most importantly, they don't cause me to stand out from the crowd.

[sepiareverb]

I like the Contax TVS- shot with that a lot while on the road a few years ago, and there was a Fuji 'poor mans TVS' the Superzoom or something like that- has a pretty sharp 28-56 lens- same f.l. as the TVS and easy exposure compensation. The front had a sliding cover, and I scratched up the case pretty good by carrying it in my pocket- but pretty good for $125.

But the TVS (the original) is my favorite P&S camera yet. Threaded filters and lens hood even!

[jscolman@scolma]

Hi, I use my Leica D-Lux-3 for street photography nearly everyday. It doesn't seem stupid to me. Another thought, for street shooting most of us Leica manual types preset the exposure and then we zone focus, so who is using a point and shoot and who isn't ?

Thanks, Jim.

[BillBingham2]

In the 80's several PJ types in NYC carried early P&S cameras with them for times when they only had long lenses on their SLRs. They only headache I have with most P&S cameras is the AF lag, WAY TOO LONG. There were a number of great fixed lens RFs made in the '70s that are fine for this approach. But when I look at a Bessa L / 25/4 combo, it weighs about the same and looks "safe". A touch bigger than most P&S bodies, but I think pretty close in weight. With a CV25 on her, a much better lens than almost any of them.

B2 (;->

[Spyderman]

IMO P&S is exactly what a street photographer needs. But with instant shutter response. Oly XA series cameras fit this criteria very well and I really enjoy using them for street...

The XA2 is better during day because it has faster highes shutter speed, and XA is better when it's darker, because it shows you the shutter speed and it has a faster lens.

[dazedgonebye]

IMO P&S is exactly what a street photographer needs. But with instant shutter response. Oly XA series cameras fit this criteria very well and I really enjoy using them for street...

The XA2 is better during day because it has faster highes shutter speed, and XA is better when it's darker, because it shows you the shutter speed and it has a faster lens.

With 1/500th and f22, the XA should be able to handle 400 iso film in the daytime with room to spare...in fact, that just makes it for 800 iso film assuming sunny 16.

[cfoto]

I carry a G7 around with me wherever I go. Wonderful camera. Very quiet. Very intuitive. You can go fully automatic, fully manual, or somewhere in between. Noise is an issue often raised with this camera. Not a big issue with me. And, the 3200 iso setting is very sweet for low light.

Some shots from my G7 can be seen here: G7 Flickr Gallery (http://flickr.com/photos/geographiceye/sets/72157594522633913/)

[back alley]

well, i am going over to the dark side for my next p&s, i just bought a used ricoh grd. it seems like the perfect set up for easy street shooting, it has a 28mm lens (equivalent), can be set to shoot at hyper focal distance for shorter lag time and from what i've seen the lens is great!!
i had been planning on using my recently acquired minolta 7s2 but that may be on the block soon.

joe

[jwcat]

I am thinking about a GRD also. Web Reviews for it always have a "but" about noise and extremly slow Raw write times. When I look a posted shots from it I forget about the "buts".

For example these: http://www.pbase.com/scho/grd

[Germanica]

See if you can try a Fuji F30. Very good low light performance, excellent built-in B&W mode, pocketable.
No viewfinder though which is a pity, and it doesn't look sexy but who cares for that.
You should be able to pick one up relatively cheap.

Otherwise the Ricoh GRD seems to be an excellent choice, but I have only held it in my hands so I cannot add any value here.

[Jeremy Z]

I would say no for a couple of reasons, some of which others have missed.

1) For street photography, shots are made or lost based on whether the shutter can be released at the exact right moment. Sometimes, 1/2 second is too long, and I've missed the shot.

2) They nearly always default to auto flash mode, so you either have to leave the camera on all the time (and some of them assume you've forgotten and turn back off) or you have to remember to cancel the flahs each time.

3) Even though the majority of the time, you might be shooting in Program mode, there WILL be a time when you want some control. Maybe you want to shoot wide open, so that the distracting background isn't sharp. Maybe you WANT some motion blur for a sense of speed? Maybe you ARE willing to brace the camera in order to get a large depth of focus. Most P&S don't give you these options.

In the end, your composition will be better than a snapshooter's, but they may look a little too typically touristy for your taste due to the lack of manual control.

I would settle for nothing less than semi-automatic; either aperture or shutter priority. Even with my XA, I sometimes miss more control, so that is as automatic as I will go, unless I'm really in tourist mode and photography is not first priority.

[ray_g]

It is possible, but aside from the difficulties that have been pointed out, one problem I have encountered it that you need to point the camera at the subject to autofocus and lock focus and exposure. This tell-tale sign seldom goes unnoticed especially by people who do not want to have their photo taken.

That is why, compared to other p&s cameras I have used in this way, I prefer the Ricoh GR-1, which has a "snap" focus mode which presets the focus to 2m. This also makes shutter lag very minimal.

[shutterfiend]

I have an Olympus Stylus Epic that I got from Randy. I love it. However, there's one major drawback. With it's narrow DOF I wouldn't trust shooting with it from the hip when I'm not sure what it's pointing at. Some focus-free P&S cameras might do the job well though.

[1dave]

I used to carry a Hexar AF precisely for the reasons articulted throughout this thread. For me, it had manual controls when i wanted them, automatic for those times. It was unobstrucive in all respects, and allowed me to pass through the scene unnoticed.

[Rico]

P&S is great for size, but the street needs shutter response. Even the Contax T3 with locked focus has 1/2sec delay and that (as mentioned by Jeremy) is too long. While not strictly a P&S, the original Contax T is my top choice (instant response leaf shutter, invisible in the hand).

[ruben]

stupid ? ? ? ............... Jim.


Hi Jim, you are right, those little marvels aren't stupid at all. Mea culpa.
Cheers,
Ruben

[ruben]

I would say no for a couple of reasons, some of which others have missed..................

Hi Jeremy, thank you for disagreeing, what a relief from my usual seat !

I would just comment that point 3 in your post is so so to my non enlightened opinion, if you accept the P&S for what it is, instead of regarding it as a competitor besides a fully manual or semi-automatic camera.

So our case AGAINST P&S goes somewhat like this:

a) The flash issue

b) The AF lag issue

c) Small viewfinder (why no one is commenting about it ? )


Cheers,
Ruben

[mfunnell]

I think I went a little over-the-top in my P&S selection. I ended up with this:

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=524976&postcount=352

I'm hoping its the ultimate autofocus film P&S camera, but we'll see. Perhaps I shouldn't have got black (in the interests of looking more like a tourist) and it isn't really small (or cheap) but I'm hoping I'll enjoy using it and that the lenses live up to their reputation.

...Mike

[dazedgonebye]

I think Ruben makes a good point re: P&S being accepted for what they are and not as a substitute for full featured cameras. That's a tough thing to do for people who agonize over which of their 6-50mm lenses to gake along on an outing.
I've got a XA on the way that I hope will serve as my P&S.

[Jeremy Z]

...I've got a XA on the way that I hope will serve as my P&S.

If all is well with it, you will love it. It looks like an amateur P&S, but it has real capability.

The only dilemma I have with mine is that I don't want to put it directly into my pocket for fear that lint & dust will dirty it up inside again. If I put it in a case, it isn't a pocket camera any more because it becomes a bigger package to carry.

Honestly, the size of the lens is in no way tied to its optical quality. It is multicoated, contrasty, and sharp.

[nightfly]

I hate to be a naysayer here but I don't really think the lens on the XA is all that great. I shot with one for awhile exclusively and while it's a great camera design and very fun to use, I found the lens tended to flare and often produced hexagon shaped flare marks. It also vignetted quite a bit wide open. Now a sub $100 camera has no reason to have a lens any better than that, but especially if you like to display photos taken with different cameras/lenses together, you are probably going to notice the XA vs. quality rangefinder glass.

But it has no shutter lag and is pocketable and opening the lens and carrying it with the lens open is much better than the Minox/Contax T drawbridge style opening.

Personally this thread gave me GAS and I just ponied up for a dark grey T2.

XA Flare:

http://provoke.mediumstudios.com/images/20060421044452_kid.jpg

http://provoke.mediumstudios.com/images/20060212141515_30-pier-pylons.jpg

[jesse1dog]

'The only dilemma I have with mine is that I don't want to put it directly into my pocket for fear that lint & dust will dirty it up inside again. If I put it in a case, it isn't a pocket camera any more because it becomes a bigger package to carry.'

Why not make a car wash leather pouch for your XA - relatively cheap, pretty thin, so not very bulky. Of course you have to be able to sew!! If not ......

As I really wear only one jacket I am thinking about lining one pocket with car wash leather.

However I'm not too sure there is a problem if you clean out your pocket first, and I really mean clean. Paper hankies are a real devil for dust!

[Xmas]

Buy a Dyson.

Noel