View Full Version : Argh! Trouble!
Right so maybe some of you lovely people will remember my blog entry about The Blondes.
The site is half-finished here http://www.thethreeblondes.co.uk/ (almost all my photo's, but they haven't listed the ones that aren't)
Aaaanyway on that shoot I took a few small compact flash cards. I used the Canon 1DmkII, which as some of you will know is capable of high res images. I however changed the settings to allow for high res, but not HIGH res. I didn't really want to use RAW and get one or two files on a 256mb card.
So now I get called by Di asking for the high res images (I'd linked her to 800x600 copies suitable for web display). She wants to get a story in the local magazine "Link" and asked if my images can be used.
My email with the 4 images attached:
Hey,
Right!
Here are the 4 photo's. But you MUST pass on the following conditions with them.
-----------
-Under each photo they must put "Photograph (c) ASHLEY BUTTLE"
-At some point within the article or nearby the pictures (ie under
PHOTOGRAPHS (c)ASHLEY BUTTLE) a link to my myspace -
http://www.myspace.com/second_belated
It's REALLY IMPORTANT that I'm credited in that fashion, as the images
are being used without paid royalties, so the least I can request is
my name and a link to my myspace.
Oh, and they MUST spell my full name correctly. I'll be really annoyed
if photo's are published and my name isn't correct.
-----------
Ash
To be honest I thought that is a fair compromise. I did the photo's initially as a favor, they want to raise money for charity and apparently it gets me some exposure. SO no money. All I ask is my name by the photo's, and a link to my site. Two lines in a cheap local FREE glossy.
The filesize is apparently 72dpi 3504x2336 or something.
Hi there this is what roger said....
Sorry still a problem. They are far too small for
print. I need to reproduce them at 300 dots per inch
at about 10cm wide. At present they are 72dpi and 5cm
wide.
I need the originals out of the camera which will be 1
to 4 mb each.
What can you do?
Blood and stones, like.
So my reply
they ARE the originals out the camera.
I'll see what I can do to increase the size tonight.
I took the photo's cos I thought they were quickies going on a
website. I would have done them in RAW if I knew you wanted them
published.
So that's a little stressful for me. I'm asked to do photo's for someone to stick on their website, to let them be published in a magazine without me seeing a penny, and maybe with my name in the smallest print.
A little background on Diana. She can't prioritise and she gets VERY stressed VERY easily. Treading on eggshells is a must. Anyone who has met me knows I'm a little (very) blunt.
This morning I awake to this reply from her:
Please i feel like you're shouting at me now...
I know you did this as a favour to us but we are
trying to get you some more work as hopefully someone
might employ you?
This is going out to the link mag in swindon but there
is a chance that this may even go into a national
paper??? If you dont want this or think it maybe to
much effort i will get the link guy to come out and
take some more and tell the News of the world no you
don't want the photos used...
Tami read the contions of use and you wording seemed a
little ... well i don't know the words but i couldn't
forward that message because it was a little to sharp!
If this is hassle just let me know... I'm very
stressed and need help from people and can't take
people having a go right now.
Thanks again i know you are doing your best but cut me
some slack i didn't know how big this was going to get
and we want to help you as well!
Diana
I'm put in a really awkward position here. News Of The World is a crappy tabloid. Any serious non-journalist photographer would probably turn their nose up at it. Any wannabe PJ would be gagging at the throat to get the images in pay or no pay.
Di cmon, you're just trying to guilt trip me here.
If you want photo's that will be published, then have me take more.
It's blood and stones trying to get those original ones 'larger' or
higher quality. I shot them at a fairly high resolution, but nothing
like what they're asking. You said you needed them for a website, not
for national publication.
You know that any photographer who has photo's printed in a national
paper gets more for a day's work than you or I do in a week right?
Asking for my name and a link to my site under the photo's hardly
amounts to money like £400-600.
You also realise that tabloids like the news of the world PAY for
every story and every photo in there, they need the page fillers, so
they throw cash at anyone with a good story?? I knew you wouldn't pass
on my original terms, and you just admitted you didnt - so already
you've proven that I can't trust that my photo's will be used under
the terms I set out. You know that they can print the photo's without
even crediting me right? That's why I set out those terms.
Like I said, I'm not having a go, but you can't call and email me last
minute all the time. It puts me under stress as well you know?
I don't mind doing things for you but you have to understand fair
warning is essential. You are getting more and more worked up and not
seeing the whole situation.
But yea basically, you need the photo's redone. I'm happy to do that.
But if they do in a national tabloid I want paying by the paper.
So please help! Am I trying too hard to stand my ground or am I being reasonable?
I'm tied to this one way or another because Di is my friend. And after this probably won't be. I'm probably going to have a shakey friendship either way after this, but do I sit back and be walked over (call her now and apologise) or do I just sit back and wait for someone to get a monkey to throw its faeces at the office fan?
Ash, Di sounds like a flake.
Asking for photo credit for a free photo is reasonable.
You took the photos apprprpriately for a web site.
Too bad you don't have high res files to offer for the unforeseen magazine publication. Missed opportunity, that!
I'm with Frank... what a load of hassle.
I spoke to Tami (the other blonde) as she called me just now. Apparently all my terms are fine with the magazine (as I thought) and all the money is going direct to Cancer Research and the kemotherapy unit in Swindon.
So I'm waiting for the email and contact details for roger from the local, and I'll probably get the blurb so I'm not caught up with exclusivity rights to images - since if other papers want the story they'll want exclusive images.
So now I need to work out when the next photoshoot is.
Kim Coxon
03-28-2007, 04:48
I gather her name is "Dipstick"! :rolleyes: :D
Kim
mfunnell
03-28-2007, 04:49
I'm confused about the original file sizes you did use:
Aaaanyway on that shoot I took a few small compact flash cards. I used the Canon 1DmkII, which as some of you will know is capable of high res images. I however changed the settings to allow for high res, but not HIGH res. I didn't really want to use RAW and get one or two files on a 256mb card.
All you need for 10cm @300dpi is about 1200 pixels on that dimension so you'd really have to lower the resolution to drop below that. So maybe you don't need to re-shoot :confused:
As to holding out for payment for publication in a major mag or paper, well, that makes sense to me.
...Mike
pesphoto
03-28-2007, 04:51
Sorry for your stress over this Ash. Sounds like youre handling it all ok. Just remember, if you do start doing more work like this for others things like this pop up all the time. I pretty much just expect it and so when issues arise it's a little less stresful. All you can do is deal with it honestly and openly with your clients and work things out. As it seems you have.
I guess I can see the photo's aren't ALL bad if the magazine didn't want a reshoot to begin with.
I'm not holding out for payment as such. I knew all money should and will go to charity. I don't have the money to donate (and I'm waiting for my last piercing to be 'healed' enough to donate blood) so I'm happy to work for free if my 'cut' goes somewhere honest.
It just wound me up and I needed some reassurance I'm not going off the rails here!
And yea - Diana = Dipsy ;)
rogue_designer
03-28-2007, 04:55
fwiw - 10x8 cm at 300 dpi is about 1200x950 px dimensions. 10x8 inchs at 300 dpi is about 3200x2400px
Your file sizes as stated should have been sufficient, unless there was some confusion along the way.
If you want me to take a look at the files at my magazine's prepress, let me know.
You can email me at rogue(dot)designer(at)gmail(dot)com.
I thought the files should be sufficiant, but hey. I'm waiting for the email address of the magazine guy and I'll talk to him direct.
My advise:
Call her.
E-mail always messes things up. She is stressed, she thinks you were shouting in the first e-mail (I think so too). That doesn't help the follow-up.
You have a phone, right? Should have called her right after the first mail to explain what you wrote about the conditions. Call her now and talk it over. Let her know you understand her stress and that she wants the exposure. Ask her to understand the problem: the shoot needs to be re-done (that's all, right?). That is not as big a deal as it seems to be from the e-mails.
Maybe you need to find someone (s.o.?) to handle your contact with clients in the future.
Stick with it, she seems like a real, well as said above, a flake. I have done more then enough charity shots for whatever to know that beggars cant be choosers.
Michiel as I said above, Tami called (Diana was probably too upset by the stress to talk direct) and it should all be sorted.
I whacked 300dpi into gimpshop and you're right RD, the filesize is a fraction off 10x8.
Avo, funny thing is the story that backs it all up is Tami's, because of a family member who was hit by cancer (can't remember which member, but very close to her) so it is through that story they are getting the exposure for the Three Blondes (errr...two) rally team charity thing. That's what makes me most mad that Diana is getting stressed over something that is actually Tami's. In my eyes anyway.
This is the kind of thing you have to expect when you get into a service based business.
Fortunately you can use this as a low impact learning experience.
You have discovered several important lessons here.
1. The aggravation factor increases as the profit margin decreases.
2. The client will expect more than what was agreed upon.
3. Stay away from blondes.
ClaremontPhoto
03-28-2007, 05:25
A mate of mine who's an architect calls it 'gold bath taps'.
When he gets a client they tell him they want something pretty simple, and he designs it. Then they upgrade their wishes and get annoyed when he increases the spend.
Benjamin Marks
03-28-2007, 05:32
My 2 cents. Until you have the luxury of choosing your clients, you have to work with the clients you've got. I recommend trying to fix the technical issues with the photos you've already taken, but after direct communications (voice, or face to face) with the person who will be using them. Make sure that there is not something being lost in translation as to why the original files won't work.
Good luck. I am also in a service business, FWIW, and often the only thing to distinguish you from the next fellow in line is how hard you are willing to work.
Ben
sorry, fellas, I'm not comfortable with the distinctly sexist overtones of this discussion. Seems inappropriate to me.
Pablito your view is welcomed but won't be argued further than the following;
Diana/Tami are friends of mine. Any opinions in this thread are formed by people solely on the email messages I have quoted in entirety. If I had said they were from another male I'm sure the response would be the same.
Only the person posting the message is responsible for their opinions. If you would like to single out one or more people who you believe is being overtly sexist please bring it to light, as I would surely have words with them also.
BJ Bignell
03-28-2007, 05:53
One thing to be learned from this: Cut out the middleman (or middlewoman, in this case).
Once you found that they were going to be published, you should have asked for the newspaper people to contact you directly. Be sure to reassure your friend that you are not trying to cut her out, but rather working to ensure that everything is accomplished in the most effective way possible. Also, don't forget to CC your friend with all of your communications; this will make it easier for her.
Good luck!
Oh, and I wanted to ask: Why is it thethreeblondes.co.uk when there are only two of them? Am I missing something?
BJ,
I've asked for the guy's email address but I haven't been given it. I'll contact the magazine directly later today but the now-settled atmosphere may get all stressful again.
There were initially three blondes to participate in their team, but one dropped out. Small amounts of publicity (and the name was registered) had been put in place, so Di thought it might be funny and "a blonde thing to do" to keep the name. She may be flakey at times, but she embraces the blonde :D
A mate of mine who's an architect calls it 'gold bath taps'.
When he gets a client they tell him they want something pretty simple, and he designs it. Then they upgrade their wishes and get annoyed when he increases the spend.
We coined the name retro-spec a few years ago; the client must make one change to justify their job.
oftheherd
03-28-2007, 06:27
This is the kind of thing you have to expect when you get into a service based business.
Fortunately you can use this as a low impact learning experience.
You have discovered several important lessons here.
1. The aggravation factor increases as the profit margin decreases.
2. The client will expect more than what was agreed upon.
3. Stay away from blondes.
I have shot a few weddings for free as favors. Most were very appreciative as they came to me out of stated need as they didn't have the money for a professional photographer. I tried to get out of it and only agreed after I felt they were indeed in need.
Except for one. I thought it strange they didn't have the money as both parents worked, but hey, I took them at their word. How could I know their exact circumstances. They were the most demanding, and expressed disappointment as a few of the shots not being just what they wanted. In fact they were what they described to me as what they wanted, it was a printing issue. 1 and 2 above are right on as far as I am concerned.
A couple of years ago, my daughter worked for a charity that wanted some photos of a big public event they were sponsoring for raising money. My daughter volunteered me. I looked forward to it and was picking the lenses I thought would give them the best photos. The photo coordinator asked if I could do digital. I didn't have a DSLR, but told him I could use my office's Sony P&S. Not good enough. I told him I could get, in fact do myself, scans of any photos he wanted to put on web pages or in magazines. Not good enough! I didn't like his attitude either. I don't know who did it or with what equipment, but it wasn't me, nor would I volunteer for that organization ever again.
It's just the chance you take in what you are trying to do. I hope your next attempts are easier and more productive!
Good luck to you. It seems as if you are on the right track.
icemendicant
03-28-2007, 06:37
Hi Ash, I'm pleased to hear the filesizes were OK after all.
This sort of situation can always be difficult but it sounds as if you have dealt with it well.
The only point I'd like to make is to agree with Michiel, that email is just not a suitable means of communication when problems start to happen, or when people start to get stressed - there simply isn't the emotional bandwidth. So, we slightly evolved apes end up misinterpreting things and escalating the problem. A phone call or face to face meeting allows a friendly tone of voice or smile to defuse a stressful situation in a couple of minutes.
Anyway - hope that didn't sound patronising, it was just meant as friendly advice.
All the best... Dan
Get ready for the long-winded email to 'roger' at the link magazine:
Hi Roger,
I hope that you don't mind me contacting directly. I'm Ash, responsible for the photo's behind Tami and Diana's story that will apparently be published in your magazine.
I have been given almost no detail, only that my photographs would like to be used alongside the story. So I'd like to fill in some gaps if that is fine with you?
The image size was a problem I was told. Could you please provide specific requirements, as I now have the images at 300dpi and they are large enough for a 10x8 (inch) print at full size. I can downsize the images to a 10cm (on the longest side) length with 300dpi, this will however cause distortion if the image is resized larger than 10cm in the final print. I have also provided the photographs as-is, and any touch ups I shall do on request - I would prefer that my images are only edited by myself, or by somebody else after request and approval.
I'd also like to speak directly in person, via telephone or through email regarding copyright issues. As I understand this is a fully charitable event, and as such no money will change hands unless it is directly to the charities outlined by Diana and Tami. Due to this liaison through 'the blondes' I am unable to directly communicate with you regarding copyright issues. As I am sure you are fully aware, the photographer owns copyright to the images regardless of the subject matter.
I had requested that my terms of being credited with my full name (ASHLEY BUTTLE) beneath each image, and a link to my current temporary web space within the article itself ('myspace' - http://www.myspace.com/second_belated) (http://www.myspace.com/second_belated%29). I'd also like to request at least one copy of the publication, if that is possible.
If at all possible I'd like to discuss with you any legal ramifications of having my images published by you. I am led to believe I will not be signing any binding contracts, but this also means that there may be no exclusive use of the images. This is very important in consideration of the nature of the story, and any further publicity Diana/Tami may have and their use of my images.
I'd like to be made aware of any of your magazine's terms of use. I am unsure of the fate of the images once published by you, and whether or not you will be archiving them. If you plan on reproducing the images in the future or if they will appear on any website or advertising, this may well require talking to you in person and drawing up full terms of use. I am free most days if you would like to arrange an informal meeting to discuss this fully in person. I would be grateful to have anything discussed in person also provided in writing so that I have a hard copy for my own reassurance.
I am unavailable tomorrow or at the weekends, but if you would like, you can contact me via mobile: <deleted>
Your correspondence and co-operation would be most appreciated so that everybody involved has a clear understanding of what will be happening in regards to this story.
Take care,
Sincerely,
Ash
<deleted my contact info>
EDIT: in the email I'm sending I've altered some grammatical errors.
Bryan Lee
03-28-2007, 07:22
Ash, I have had similar issues come up in the past. Its always the freebie stuff that becomes a hassle. I believe it is related to the clients lack of payment leaving them unable to value the image or your work effort. I recently sent a e-mail to one potential client that basically said I would be happy to answer some questions through e-mail for free but stated my firm day rate plus expenses for any work.
My two rules are this, If I shoot or print for free I write on the front of the front side of the image. If I get paid, I write on the back of the image unless asked otherwise. This could be anything from a 8x10 print for a friend which I sign with a permanent marker to some type of watermark with a e-mail address.
This is where you need to have some cards with basic contact information so the next time anyone wants to use one of your images in print you can just have them contact you directly as mentioned.
I'm gonna go down the 'business card' route as soon as I have my site up. Unfortunately that is taking forever. But I do appreciate it being done for free by a friend - as such I'm not on at him every day to get it done ;)
If I was being paid for maybe one shoot that will appear in a magazine or tabloid I could afford the site to be built, and the domain name and hosting for a couple years I bet. That's the other edge I keep having jabbed at me - I'm doing things non-profit and such I don't have the cash available to even have a good site up to advertise myself for the profitable aspects!
without even a "hello" at the start (a true businessman is he)
Sorry the reply is brief but any longer and it will be easier to fix a time
to take my own pictures with the blondes.
I need 3 or 4 pics, one with story next month, others to promote trip in
later editions (maybe).
Max size in magazine - 10cm wide, supplied at 300dpi. They will appear in
our online digital edition - see swindonlink.com (http://swindonlink.com/) and maybe used in a web
site story.
I don't touch up pics, but I will crop and sharpen as necessary.
Picture credit will be given; web site mention will depend on space in
magazine, but will be hyperlinked from swindonlink.com (http://swindonlink.com/)
Copyright remains with you, no legal tie ups or exclusivity.
If you're OK with this, the images which look nice on your web site are:
NR0K1591a.jpg
NR0K1585a.jpg
NR0K1615a.jpg
NR0K1622a.jpg
roger
my reply
Hi Roger,
Thank you for your immediate albeit brief response.
I'd prefer that the mention of the site is with the images somewhere
in the article. http://www.myspace.com/second_belated is a single line
(less than 40 characters) and is easily fitted underneath one image.
Your choice in 4 images is different to the choice by the blondes, so
this needs to be rectified. If you're available for a chat next week
then we can sort this fully, else please consider all the points in my
original email and provide a full response.
Let me know if the attached photograph meets your requirements for filesize.
Sincerely,
Ash
Tuolumne
03-28-2007, 13:42
Ash,
I just had the same dpi problem with some jpgs I took. How do you edit and save them after editing? I was using Picasa and discovered that unless I saved them at maximum quality they would turn out to be just 96 dpi. When saved at the highest setting they were 300 dpi. So the quality of the source file can be degraded if you don't save the edited pics the right way.
T.
It's interesting how unwilling this guy Roger appears. He even suggests that he will not use your shots if you make him write too many e-mails.
There doesn't seem to be a lot of warm fuzzyness going on with this charity, except from you Ash. I'm impressed by your determination to put up with this :)
Too bad you need the mention.. If not I would've told him to go ahead and go take his own photographs.
Kim Coxon
03-28-2007, 13:54
Ash,
Please don't take this the wrong way but I think you have a lot to learn about the press. It is the sort of answer I would expect. He is looking for pictures to illustrate a story which will either sell papers or fill space. He is not worried about reflecting the wishes of the subject or photographer. His time is precious to him. As he says, he can get his own pictures in less time than arranging meetings etc. He is giving you credit, there are no strings and space permitting, he will put the website address. I think that that is about the best you can expect (though you might wish for more)
Originally Posted by roger
Sorry the reply is brief but any longer and it will be easier to fix a time
to take my own pictures with the blondes.
I need 3 or 4 pics, one with story next month, others to promote trip in
later editions (maybe).
Max size in magazine - 10cm wide, supplied at 300dpi. They will appear in
our online digital edition - see swindonlink.com and maybe used in a web
site story.
I don't touch up pics, but I will crop and sharpen as necessary.
Picture credit will be given; web site mention will depend on space in
magazine, but will be hyperlinked from swindonlink.com
Copyright remains with you, no legal tie ups or exclusivity.
If you're OK with this, the images which look nice on your web site are:
NR0K1591a.jpg
NR0K1585a.jpg
NR0K1615a.jpg
NR0K1622a.jpg
roger
As a professional writer and magazine columist, I would like to confirm all Kim has said. Ash, you have been treated as well as you could possibly expect and may think yourself lucky to get a credit. As an unpaid amateur photographer you have absolutely no status and the editor of a local free-sheet like the Link will not give a damn for your choice of picture. He also knows his readership far better than you. He knows they will be happy with any reasonably sharp photograph: Your job is to save him a drive across town to take the snaps in his lunch hour. If you want to promote your site, make news, submit photographs and give the man a reason to feature your work. Every day writers and editors are bombarded by material from wannabees. Such people invariably fail to understand that the only thing an editor loves is a reliable source of material.
Herein lies the difference between professionals and amateurs.
Ian
It's a cold, hard world out there! I'm thinking along the same lines as Kim and Ian.
Bryan Lee
03-28-2007, 19:33
I have a little different take on the matter. First I think Ash is pretty damm brave to work through this in public all be it among friends here on the forum. This was a learning experience for him, the same kind of learning experience many of us have worked through privately. Editors can be jack asses, this one may be half way there and I'm sure he is on a deadline but thats no excuse to appear hurried with ones words.
There are people reading this now that will never even post on the matter but have learned something, Good Job Ash! There are not to many young guys doing what he is doing that can hang in here on the forum with for all practical purposes is a group of old men musing about cameras they learned to love in their youth. I think its great to have the chance to watch Ash going about his youthful love affair with cameras since Ive already been through a few divorces with photography.
It being a cold hard world, as Frank observes, here is something that has has helped out more than one aspiring pro photographer.
Ash, I see that that there are two theatres in Swindon, both of which feature touring companies and performers. Write to them - the performers and theatre managers. Explain that you are an aspiring photographer and offer free photographs, Send them links to your site. If need be, hang about the stage door with your view camera. Get yourself known.
Big people may not show much interest, but they are not important to you. The cast of any touring show will always include novices and hopefuls. Photograph them. They will want pictures. Talk to them.
Then, submit the photographs and a couple of paragraphs to local papers and free sheets in their hometown. Local boy/girl makes good is always copy: you will not get much, but do this regularly and it will mount up. You will gain experience and - on the side - be able to take pictures that interest you. I worked as a screenwriter, but in my few encounters with live theatre I found it a fascinating world. You may even get an exhibition in the foyer.
A similar approach can also work with the major advertisers in your local press. A photo essay about a car dealer's may not appeal to you, but it will probably get you a half-page in the free sheet they finance.
And such pictures need not be be dross. This was Jaye Griffiths (since of The Bill, Doctors, Bugs etc), when she worked in film hell with me - it got me £50, which I needed just as much as you do - http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=34804&ppuser=2846
Cheers,Ian
IGMeanwell
03-29-2007, 01:28
Stand your ground ASH ... and keep an open ear with these guys
On a funny note, the last shots I sold to a newspaper (local) I got yelled at for sending them too large :P
Publishers are never easy to please
jesse1dog
03-29-2007, 03:29
Hi Ash
Thanks for raising a variety of issues and discussing all this on the forum.
This is a great thread.
Some of the suggestions made sound very interesting to me and have probably got you thinking in a slightly different direction. The possible theatre shots of young and hopefulls sounds exciting and pretty useful for all concerned. Go for it!
I've been asked to do a publicity brochure for a local church group and to include photos taken already. Nobody has even suggested that the photographer gets a credit! But he will now if I get my way. Of course I will give him a ring to see what his view is.
Thanks again and best of luck.
j
Pherdinand
03-29-2007, 03:45
This is the kind of thing you have to expect when you get into a service based business.
Fortunately you can use this as a low impact learning experience.
You have discovered several important lessons here.
1. The aggravation factor increases as the profit margin decreases.
2. The client will expect more than what was agreed upon.
3. Stay away from blondes.
I wihs this added:
4. Try to be easier on people (clients?) who might know much less about things YOU do. Like, file sizes, DPI, etcetera. You can't expect that person, blonde or non blonde, Di, to know that 72 DPI means NOTHING and 3200 pixels have to be divided by the printing resolution 300 DPI to give the printed size (above 10 INCHES). Especially since it seems that this was not even obvious to YOU before you started to play around with the numbers! :)
I do think your request was absolutely normal and should have been done even without you ASKING for it, but i also think you were a bit harsh in your e-mail to her.
Cheers and good luck.
Pherdinand
03-29-2007, 04:02
OK one more thing. After reading the brief answer of the guy called Roger, from his first two lines I honestly think he is not taking you, neither your shots, seriously.
Ash, Ian is spot on - I commission a lot of creative work as part of my job promoting my college and nothing hacks me off so much as a photographer wanting a long discussion about their needs. I just need their work delivered and don't have time for anything else. A wise friend at an agency once told me there are only two possibilities when under this sort of pressure. You say "Yes I'll sort that out for you" or you say "I'm sorry I can't do any more to help".
The reply from Roger was pretty much what I would have said to you and I have a reputation for being nice. It's just business, stuff has to get done. If you can't do it, they'll get someone else. Keep at it though - one day that magical call will come saying they've seen your work and could you help out? In the meantime grow a very thick skin - you'll need it.
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