View Full Version : First Results: Roeschlein-Kreuznach (LTM Hacked)
Here are some snapshots I took yesterday with the Luxon 50mm/2.0 lens which Brian Sweeney adapted into a LTM lens by using a J-3 shell. The results are surprising, the least to say.
At f8.0, the resulting images were good:
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t261/raidamin/Luxonatf8.jpg
The same at f 5.6:
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t261/raidamin/Luxonatf5.jpg
Note the out of focus behavior for this lens.
Raid
At f 4.0, we clearly see the bokeh "rings". The Luxon is not a widely seen lens here, so I don't know how this lens performs in a non-hacked way on a Paxette. Is it the "Brian Sweeney Effect" that we are seeing here or is it simply the optical performance of the Luxon?
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t261/raidamin/Luxonat4.jpg
At 2.8 things get "interesting":
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t261/raidamin/Luxonat2-1.jpg
And at f2.0 too:
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t261/raidamin/Luxonat2.jpg
What do you think about this lens?
Raid
I have more "test" results at f 2.0 here:
http://www.photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=708554
Raid
That is wild Raid! I kinda like it.
That is wild Raid! I kinda like it.
Keith: I have quite a few"normal looking" 50mm lenses, so this lens is really special. At aperture settings 5.6-16, the results are kinda normal, but at apertures greater than 5.6 we see very strange looking bokeh.
Raid
There are some other old lenses that share this characteristic, like this Kino-Plasmat 50mm:
http://oldlens.com/EPSN5206b.jpg
the Hektor 73/1.9:
http://oldlens.com/IMG_7032b.jpg
the specular highlights behind the plane of focus in pictures from these lenses look like footballs with the long axis along an oval centered in the middle of the frame:
http://oldlens.com/EPSN3865b.jpg
the Prominent Nokton has this characteristic wide open to a much milder degree.
Fred B.
It seems like a very special purpose lens at those wider apertures. I would certainly love to see more portraits with different backgrounds.
Man, I really like that swirly bokeh!
Fred: I was just thinking to myself that the Nokton Prominent had a wild looking Bokeh at 1.5, but in a more tamed way. Thanks for the images from the old lenses. Is the reason a design flaw that older lenses did not overcome?
Raid
Keith: I will experiment with this lens.I wonder how its bokeh looks like with a darker uniform looking background. Another interesting situation is of course the typical night scene with lights. Fred'si mage with fall colors is a great example of artistic possibilities to create painting like photos.
Raid
Raid, I'm sorry to give the impression that those are my photos - I linked to a Japanese site with a really remarkable selection of photos from exotic old lenses. Here is the main site:
http://oldlens.com
I don't read Japanese, so can't tell who is the owner of the site to credit them properly.
I have read that the oval highlights come from spherical aberration or its correction, but don't understand the topic at all myself. Here is a thread where the discussants blame it on spherical aberration and then seem to agree that it's too hard to really understand:
http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00EiFs
If you google "swirly spherical aberration" you get a bunch of pages with pictures like yours.
Fred B.
Raid, I'm sorry to give the impression that those are my photos - I linked to a Japanese site with a really remarkable selection of photos from exotic old lenses. Here is the main site:
http://oldlens.com
I don't read Japanese, so can't tell who is the owner of the site to credit them properly.
I have read that the oval highlights come from spherical aberration or its correction, but don't understand the topic at all myself. Here is a thread where the discussants blame it on spherical aberration and then seem to agree that it's too hard to really understand:
http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00EiFs
If you google "swirly spherical aberration" you get a bunch of pages with pictures like yours.
Fred B.
Fred: I meant it regardless whether the images were taken by you or not. The linked images were useful to look at. I will take a look at the last link.
I am not into optical designs but the resulting look. Since I already have a J-3, it was OK to sacrifice a J-3 (by Brian) and for me to give up a Luxon for a Braun Paxette that I do not have.
Thanks.
Raid
xayraa33
03-23-2007, 20:48
the original Voigtlander Nokton gives a similar swirly woosh background, but not to the extreme of the Roeschlein glass.
it is an aquired taste.
Got Nikki Settled down to sleep in the Rocker- quick check for Email's- Eyes Sleepy-
Summarit Swirlies EXTREME! Astigmatism for the out-of-focus areas, and over-correction for spherical aberration. (I read an optics book) My Summarit does this wide-open and close-up. The Retina-Xenon 50/1.9 does not do this, and it has a long back-focus as well. The 1950's Nokton does this, but about the same degree of the Summarit.
This is the lens for men that like portraits of the women in their lives with the world revolving around them.
The lace on your wifes shirt looks in focus in all of the pictures. What did you use for focal point with the RF spot?
Brian: This is really a case of severe swirlies. It will come in handy at times.
I focused on her eyes and eye lids. I need to check focusing again with this lens after I return from my Germany trip next week. It could be my eye sight.
Greetings,
Raid
the original Voigtlander Nokton gives a similar swirly woosh background, but not to the extreme of the Roeschlein glass.
it is an aquired taste.
I have the original Nokton, and it is much better controlled for such swirlies when stopped down a little. When used wide open, it does show a "strong"bokeh bahvior.
Raid
I took another look at other photos I had taken on the same roll at 2.0 [not posted here]. I now recall that I could not focus well on my wife's eyes in the shade and I used the edge of the blouse with the lace as my focusing target,which threw off the teeth and the eyes at times.I also have images where I focused on the eyes and they came out sharp. The lens is fine with that respect.
Raid
John Shriver
03-24-2007, 07:23
Summar on crystal meth!
Gabriel M.A.
03-24-2007, 07:31
That's pretty wild.
I've always wondered what the Helios-103 would be like in LTM. Hmmmm... ;)
The Summarit does give you pretty wild bokeh like the one above in the same conditions; seems to be an "epoch" thing?
Gabriel M.A.
03-24-2007, 07:34
BTW, guess who's getting a Nikkor 50mm f/1.4 in LTM next week in the mail? :D
I hope I can close focus it properly.
And I hope to catch up with you Raid, with the 50s collection. If only I hadn't sold my Canon 50 f/1.5 :bang:
Well that is a relief for me!! I checked the lens at 5m, 3m, and close with the TTL viewer and my Canon IIf that I use for all the J-3 and J-8's. After seeing the images I was worried that the focal length was shorter than anticipated.
However, from now on use your wife's beautiful eyes for the point of focus.
Or else I'm going to set all your lenses to focus 4" closer than what the RF indicates.
Brian:
:D Your point is well taken. :D
I just picked up a CD with new photos taken with the Luxon. Maybe the swirl will be less obvious since photos were taken with a darker background and at f 4.0~5.6.
Raid
I also have a lot of 50's in LTM. Not a Luxon! I'll be looking now. More swirlies than a Summarit. I love the effect on a Portrait.
The Helios-103 has a very smooth Bokeh, nothing exciting like this one. I can use the Helios on my Bessa R2 with the M adapter. The rear module of the Helios does not fit into a J-3 mount. Else, I would have an LTM Menopta by now.
I'm looking at hacking a Zeiss Jena Tessar module from an M42 mount into an Industar 61 Mount. I put the Industar optics into a Nikon S-Mount.
On a humorous note, last night Nikki was wound up like a top and had a hard time relaxing. So I told her the "relaxing Place" Story... Navarre Beach.
Brian: I have been thinking of getting a Contax mount 50mm/1.5 into an Industrar 61. Can you do such magic? I would still need a 50mm/1.5.
Raid
BTW, guess who's getting a Nikkor 50mm f/1.4 in LTM next week in the mail? :D
I hope I can close focus it properly.
And I hope to catch up with you Raid, with the 50s collection. If only I hadn't sold my Canon 50 f/1.5 :bang:
Gabriel: I still need to get the Canon 50/1.5 one day. For now, I am targeting the classic Zeiss 50/1.5 to be Frankensteined by Brian. I need a donor lens!
Raid
Summar on crystal meth!
John: You are underestimating the swirling action here! We may have on our hands a Summarit on Cocaine and Opium!
Raid
Here are three additional photos taken with the Luxon [underexposed] and a Leica IIIc in need of shutter work. I used Fujicolor 200 print film with aperture settings 4.0~5.6. The results are under-par in quality, as can be seen.
I have a trip tomorrow to Germany for a week, so my Luxon adventures have to wait until I get back.
Raid
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t261/raidamin/300963-R1-13-14A.jpg
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t261/raidamin/300963-R1-12-13A.jpg
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t261/raidamin/300963-R1-11-12A.jpg
I tried changing one image to B&W-Sepia to improve the effects of color film underexposure a little.
Raid
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t261/raidamin/sepia.jpg
Here are more shots taken at f 2.0:
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t261/raidamin/301092-R1-34-34A.jpg
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t261/raidamin/301092-R1-33-33A.jpg
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t261/raidamin/301092-R1-35-35A.jpg
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t261/raidamin/301092-R1-36-36A.jpg
That lens looks like Petzval lenses from over a century ago. They usually had swirly effects. I got the same effect from an old 300mm lens I used the front element from.
Brian, are you providing this service for a lot of lenses now? :D
Raid, that lens is certainly unique- looking at the pictures taken at larger aperture make me dizzy.
Carl Zeiss Jena in East Germany post WW2 made a number of 50/3.5 Tessars in LTM, although only for a short period in 1946 and 1947, according to the books that I have read. There were also supposed to be several hundred made between 1939 and 1945 for the German military.
You would probably have to contact the Zeiss Historica Society for confirmation and details.
Brian, nice postwar Tessar. Is the lens rigid or collapsible? Serial number probably dates to late 1940s.
Spyderman
03-24-2007, 15:55
Brian: I have been thinking of getting a Contax mount 50mm/1.5 into an Industrar 61. Can you do such magic? I would still need a 50mm/1.5.
Raid
I guess the Zeiss 50/1.5 optic module would fit Jupiter-3 focus module... Just like Zeiss 50/2 optic fits Jupiter-8 focus module. There is almost no need to tinker - just swap the optics and collimate...
Gabriel M.A.
03-24-2007, 15:55
... oh boy
Raid, having looked again at the pics with this lens, it has a unique 3-D quality about it that makes for an interesting portrait lens. It reminds me of stereo photos that my father shot in the late 1950s of Central Park NYC, and family Christmas photos from 1960, posed in front of the tree. The subject of the photo is on a plane toward the front of the image, and the background looks decidedly recessed, far in the background. An interesting lens, although the wide open shots still make me dizzy.
I love the last shot. Do you have an understanding wife, or what!
The under-exposed shots of the kids have an old-fashioned look to them
It looks sharp enough wide-open. And I expect to see those eyes in focus from now on, unless I screwed-up!
Brian,
Aren't the eyes in focus in the last shot above? Also, my kids [underexposed] photos show sharpness, don't they?
Raid
I guess the Zeiss 50/1.5 optic module would fit Jupiter-3 focus module... Just like Zeiss 50/2 optic fits Jupiter-8 focus module. There is almost no need to tinker - just swap the optics and collimate...
Spyderman,
I hope that your comment will inspire more "teamwork" between Brian and me.
Raid
The Tessar is Rigid mount.
I suspect the Pre-war Zeiss module should screw right into a J-3 mount. It may be a bit longer, but nothing that should be difficult. It will not fit into the I-61 mount, nor would the Luxon. The Tessar module fit in.
Brian,
Is there a way to get some J-3 with messed up optics and a Zeiss with lousy cosmetics but good optics?
Raid
Raid, having looked again at the pics with this lens, it has a unique 3-D quality about it that makes for an interesting portrait lens. It reminds me of stereo photos that my father shot in the late 1950s of Central Park NYC, and family Christmas photos from 1960, posed in front of the tree. The subject of the photo is on a plane toward the front of the image, and the background looks decidedly recessed, far in the background. An interesting lens, although the wide open shots still make me dizzy.
Mark: this lens requires you to take a second and third look before deciding whether the optics are useless or actually inspiring. I find the photos at apertures 5.6 and smaller openings to be very nice looking and those taken at 4.0 and larger openings to be open to interpretations by different photographers. In many ways, the Luxon is a unique 50mm/2.0 lens. Shooting against a uniformly lit darker background, there may be less of a swirling effect whereas shooting with a background like I did above with light coming at me and coming through the trees,we can expect a dramatic swirling effect.
Raid
Wouldn't an I-61 be useful for a Zeiss 50/1.5?
I have two of these.
Raid
Brian: This makes sense; maybe I am fine for a while with respect to hacked lenses until I get a Nikon S2 as you have suggested. Thanks again for hacking the Luxon for me.
Raid
LeicaTom
08-18-2007, 21:57
OMG!!!!!!
That bokeh effect is NUTZ!!!!!! I love it :)
I had like three glasses of wine tonight as well and that makes it even BETTER!!!!!
I want one now, wonder if Brian can do that with a Roeschlein Kreuznach E Telenar 90mm?????
Wow! But really great effects, simply wonderful :)
Tom
ps: I`ve heard nothing but great things about Mr Sweeney, I have a Nikkor f2.0 50mm that has his talent worked into from Roland and I`m waiting to TEST it next week as soon as I have a willing PinUp model.....
Hi Tom,
lol
The wine helped!
Actually, this lens does well in open shade situations.
That swirly bokeh reminds me of the results from my Biotar-type SLR lenses, but even more pronounced. I like the effect. especially for portraits.
bmattock
09-17-2007, 20:46
The Luxon is not a widely seen lens here, so I don't know how this lens performs in a non-hacked way on a Paxette. Is it the "Brian Sweeney Effect" that we are seeing here or is it simply the optical performance of the Luxon?
As you know, I have a Luxon, and all the Super Paxettes in the known universe. I am frustratingly addicted to collecting these awful little cameras that feel so good in the hand and are such average performers.
Sadly, my Luxon is a non-rf-coupled model. I actually saw one sell on eBay recently in the uber-rare -E- couple model, but alas, no money me.
The Luxon does NOT do that, in my experience, on the Paxette body for which it is intended.
Curious how you managed to focus this frankenlens?
I have only seen similar swirly OOF effects using the Mamiya Super Deluxe 50mm f/1.4, one of the two f/1.4 fixed-lens rangefinders that were ever made, AFAIK. I shot it wide open at slow speeds at an event and got similar, but much less pronounced, swirlies.
I *do* kind of like it, yes. Interesting, and at the same time, equilibrium-disturbing. Reminds me of a cover of a 1970's photography magazine.
Fun stuff. Well done!
bmattock
09-17-2007, 20:49
I want one now, wonder if Brian can do that with a Roeschlein Kreuznach E Telenar 90mm?????
Please don't. If yours is the 90mm Telenar in -E- is quite rare, and one of the only coupled Paxette lenses I don't have. I'd happily send you something else in trade that you could hack to pieces if you'd trade me.
Raid,
a very good idea to convert the Luxon to LTM. What I've heard, the Luxon vignettes heavily used at f/2 on the Paxette due to mechanical reasons.
As to the "wild" swirl effect. I've seen it before with older lenses (i.e. with my 1.9/83 Takumar which was the first portrait telephoto lens made by Pentax and also with the 2.4/58 Takumar) but yours is the stongest swirl effect I've ever seen. IMO, this effect is caused by highly undercorrected curvature of field, maybe in combination with undercorrrection of speherical aberration - a design flaw, but no bad thing with portraits.
Undercorrected curvature of field causes an unsharp background to "come closer"& increase sharpness to the edges, and go back (unsharper) to the center, thus providing the swirl effect behind the main motif. With aperture closed down, both depth of field and correction of aberrations increases, abolishing the swirl effect.
Frank
Please don't. If yours is the 90mm Telenar in -E- is quite rare, and one of the only coupled Paxette lenses I don't have. I'd happily send you something else in trade that you could hack to pieces if you'd trade me.
Hi Bill
If you are after one of these, let me know. I've acquired one "by mistake" (see http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45732&highlight=telenar).
I would love to see some panning shots at wide apertures with this lens. Something like following a cyclist during a race. "Streaming" wild bokeh!!!
As you know, I have a Luxon, and all the Super Paxettes in the known universe. I am frustratingly addicted to collecting these awful little cameras that feel so good in the hand and are such average performers.
Sadly, my Luxon is a non-rf-coupled model. I actually saw one sell on eBay recently in the uber-rare -E- couple model, but alas, no money me.
The Luxon does NOT do that, in my experience, on the Paxette body for which it is intended.
Curious how you managed to focus this frankenlens?
I have only seen similar swirly OOF effects using the Mamiya Super Deluxe 50mm f/1.4, one of the two f/1.4 fixed-lens rangefinders that were ever made, AFAIK. I shot it wide open at slow speeds at an event and got similar, but much less pronounced, swirlies.
I *do* kind of like it, yes. Interesting, and at the same time, equilibrium-disturbing. Reminds me of a cover of a 1970's photography magazine.
Fun stuff. Well done!
Hi Bill,
The Luxon is housed within a J-3 barrel, so focusing it is easy since it is now RF coupled. This is was the main reason for risking to lose the Luxon to a Frankenstein experiment like Brain did for my lens. It is a mystery to me why the Luxon does what it does in my photos.
Thanks.
I would love to see some panning shots at wide apertures with this lens. Something like following a cyclist during a race. "Streaming" wild bokeh!!!
I will try doing such an experiment. By the way, I later on used the Luxon for portraits in the open shade, and the results looked "normal" and without any swirling effect.
Holy tamole, Raid, I've never seen anything that extreme. I miss Brian and his exploits around here.....
Hi Mike,
We all hope that Brian comes back here. He is a good man.
As for the Luxon, I will try to explore the lens's optical capabilities in more depth.
Raid, if you ever decide to rid yourself of the Luxon, let me know.
Keith,
What is it that you like about the Frankenstein Luxon?
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