View Full Version : 50mm preasph lux? which one is I and II ?
Cheers people,
Im after a 50mm lux pre asph II, all the photos I-ve seen from it, bokeh and signature wise, made me weep ( well my credit card to be honest ) :)
But on the search for it, I found at least two types, for example >
Leica M 50mm Summilux Serial # 3690199 has 46mm filter size
but this one
Leica M 50 mm Summilux Serial # 3590153 has a 43mm filter size and does look "older" ( although its mint )
So I assume that the 46mm filter sized one is the II and the 43mm is the I ? There is a page to verify the serial number and to see if its a I or a II ? both are good? or any particular things about I or II? pretty much all the photos I-ve seen from the 50'lux pre/asph II are gorgeous
Thank you for the help as usual .)
nikon_junkie
03-14-2007, 20:07
I had the version #1 and can email you a few images. Loved it and regret selling it.
Can't speak for the newer glass, but if you choose not to go the version 1 route let me know where to find it.
Harry Lime
03-14-2007, 20:55
There are three different optical formulas of this lens:
50mm F1.4 Summilux 1959-1961 - Type 1 SN#1,645,300-1,844,000
This version was only made for two years and was replaced by Type 2, which featured a new optical computation and increased performance (especially at 1.4).
50mm F1.4 Summilux 1962-1994 - Type 2 SN#1,844,001-N/A
This is the most common version of the Lux. This optical formula was in production for over 40 years until the arrival of the ASPH model and is very, very good. This version with the clip on hood focuses as close as 1 meter (100cm).
50mm F1.4 Summilux-M 1995 - 2005/6 - Type 3 SN# ???
Same optical formula as Type 2, but a built in collapsible hood (which doesn't lock in place! ) and now focuses to .7 meters (70cm). This is the version I have and I prefer the ability to focus closer. Performance is identical to Type 2. Same optical formula as Type#2
50mm F1.4 Summilux-M ASPH 2006 - present Type 4 SN# ???
A totally new optical formula with ASPH technology and a floating element for increased close up performance. Reportedly this is the highest performing 50mm lens ever made for 35mm photography. Cost: circa $2700 dollars.
Harry, I think your post should be a sticky.
Type 2, 43mm filter thread, chrome, circa 1964:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/Seaslug/CLwithSummilux7.jpg?t=1173952729
Wide-open:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/Seaslug/EPDM2.jpg?t=1173952864
To circle back on a question in the original post, the filter size for the "type 2" below is E43, and the filter size for the "type 3" is E46.
There are three different optical formulas of this lens:
50mm F1.4 Summilux 1959-1961 - Type 1 SN#1,645,300-1,844,000
This version was only made for two years and was replaced by Type 2, which featured a new optical computation and increased performance (especially at 1.4).
50mm F1.4 Summilux 1962-1994 - Type 2 SN#1,844,001-N/A
This is the most common version of the Lux. This optical formula was in production for over 40 years until the arrival of the ASPH model and is very, very good. This version with the clip on hood focuses as close as 1 meter (100cm).
50mm F1.4 Summilux-M 1995 - 2005/6 - Type 3 SN# ???
Same optical formula as Type 2, but a built in collapsible hood (which doesn't lock in place! ) and now focuses to .7 meters (70cm). This is the version I have and I prefer the ability to focus closer. Performance is identical to Type 2. Same optical formula as Type#2
50mm F1.4 Summilux-M ASPH 2006 - present Type 4 SN# ???
A totally new optical formula with ASPH technology and a floating element for increased close up performance. Reportedly this is the highest performing 50mm lens ever made for 35mm photography. Cost: circa $2700 dollars.
my looking very very hard for the so called latest pre asph with the 46mm filter mount, the older ones are said to be the same except the older coatings (which I dont know is it makes a difference or not) and the 1 meter minimum focus. Also I see them on ebay going fro around 700-800 so no problem finding one, but I would be careful since it is an older lens, make sure you get a good one
I just bought version 2 summilux (43mm filter thread). I was wondering:
is there any other clip-on hoods than Leica's own? There is 43mm threaded hoods on ebay, but in that case I couldn't use uv-filter... well, actually I never use uv-filters anyway... What would you do?
nikon_junkie
03-15-2007, 16:15
Hope that wasn't your Lux I just swiped... I'll send samples of my earlier lens in awhile.
I just bought version 2 summilux (43mm filter thread). I was wondering:
is there any other clip-on hoods than Leica's own? There is 43mm threaded hoods on ebay, but in that case I couldn't use uv-filter... well, actually I never use uv-filters anyway... What would you do?I use the eBay non-vented threaded hoods on almost all of my Leica lenses. They are excellent.
Gabriel M.A.
03-15-2007, 17:41
There are three different optical formulas of this lens:
50mm F1.4 Summilux 1959-1961 - Type 1 SN#1,645,300-1,844,000
This version was only made for two years and was replaced by Type 2, which featured a new optical computation and increased performance (especially at 1.4).
50mm F1.4 Summilux 1962-1994 - Type 2 SN#1,844,001-N/A
This is the most common version of the Lux. This optical formula was in production for over 40 years until the arrival of the ASPH model and is very, very good. This version with the clip on hood focuses as close as 1 meter (100cm).
50mm F1.4 Summilux-M 1995 - 2005/6 - Type 3 SN# ???
Same optical formula as Type 2, but a built in collapsible hood (which doesn't lock in place! ) and now focuses to .7 meters (70cm). This is the version I have and I prefer the ability to focus closer. Performance is identical to Type 2. Same optical formula as Type#2
50mm F1.4 Summilux-M ASPH 2006 - present Type 4 SN# ???
A totally new optical formula with ASPH technology and a floating element for increased close up performance. Reportedly this is the highest performing 50mm lens ever made for 35mm photography. Cost: circa $2700 dollars.
This is what I say (including Zen Shooter), but most people insist on lumping the 1962-1994 and 1995-2005 versions together into "Version II", and this is what confuses the hell out of people. The 1995-2005 version (E46) is very different construction-wise from the Version II lens, although the optical formula is reportedly the same, yet the Version III (yes, Version III, pre-asph) has "improved" coatings and you can close-focus down to 0.7 meters. Physically, and in some practical ways, it's a different version.
This one is the oddball in Leica nomenclature.
Gabriel, thank you .) after all this talk and few dozen's of Flickr's emails ( you got one by the way, gorgeous photos - you use v2 or v3 ? ) I got into that conclusion...
Anyway, i have a problem.. Harry Lime description is fantastic but I found one Summilux 50 1.4 that doesnt fit that description :
Is 46mm filter thread, doesnt have a collapsible hood and it looks like an ASPH.. is certainly not a v2 ( i looked into a v2 and they are different ) and doesnt fit the v3 bill... what is it ?
by the way, should I expect the same "creamy dreamy" bokeh from a v3 than a v2 ?
Gabriel M.A.
03-15-2007, 17:49
Is 46mm filter thread, doesnt have a collapsible hood and it looks like an ASPH.. is certainly not a v2 ( i looked into a v2 and they are different ) and doesnt fit the v3 bill... what is it ?
???? Do you have a photo of it? (and yes, although the v2 is a little "softer" in the oof areas, and therefore "creamier", I think this may be due to the coatings, and something desirable for all-B&W work)
well this is it >
http://www.shphoto.de/bild/07149.jpg
is it a v3 or a vwhatever ? :)
and this i belive is a V2 no ? similar to yours ?
http://www.shphoto.de/bild/13687.jpg
is there any risks ( apart from the obvious ones ) buying a v2 ? is there loads of lemons ? should I be better and buy a v3 (because its newer) or its safe to buy a v2 ? im ordering online, cant see the lens beforehand, both seem mint though
Now I have a question about the Summilux 50mm vs 3 pre-asph E 46 (Leica number: 11 856): On the box is written "silver chrome finish" but the manual states "the barrel is made from brass and titan finished" I know that there is a special "titan" version (barrel engraving in grey ?) sold as set with the titanium body M6 (or M7 ?) . So are there three different color versions available, black, silver chrome finish, and titan ? :confused:
-Gabor
proenca: The lens in your first photo (E46) looks exactly as mine vs3 Summilux and it has the integrated hood. When it is collapsed, you can't see the hood.
yep. that I can reply myself > there are three versions, black, silver and titan. proof here > http://www.shphoto.de/bild/07820.jpg
In the Hove Leica book 7th ed. p. 138 the Leica product number for the titanium is 11869. It began manufacture in 1995.
Mad Doc, cheers mate :) i thought it had no hood, you really cant see it .;) thank you !
Gabriel M.A.
03-15-2007, 18:21
proenca: The lens in your first photo (E46) looks exactly as mine vs3 Summilux and it has the integrated hood. When it is collapsed, you can't see the hood.
Yep, that's the one I have, (the pre-asph E46). It further confuses people when they see it, for I had the focusing tab added to it by DAG. I love the tab on this lens (and the 1979 version Summicron).
Well, here is a not that sharp (mobile-phone camera ...) photo of my 'lux 50mm vs3.
peter_n: thanks for the info about the titan version.
-Gabor
Gabriel M.A.
03-15-2007, 18:30
BTW, not sure about what you mean by "lemons" with the Summilux. Only thing to watch out for is fogging, and in some cases fungus. A lot of these lenses are really old (the v2), and many people thought they were taking good care of them by storing them and not taking them out at all to get some fresh air. Also watch out for gear that's been used for a long time in extreme-humidity places; it does a number on any gear, but specially lenses.
I have an E43 made in 1972 and cheap from eBay. Sent it to DAG for a CLA that cost $100 but the lens came back looking (and working) like it must have done when it was new. The lens hood is a CV hood used on the 35/2.5 P1 that Gandy was selling off when that lens went out of production - a very convenient 43mm! It really is a wonderful lens. :)
thank you all for your replies. it seems my credit card going to take a hit, 50 summilux it is , v3.
Gabriel : sorry, i was too long in SLR photography :) just changed over rangefinders over a year go, not even. lemons is an expression that it goes "in a batch of oranges, there are always some lemons". lemons , at least to the SLR crowed, means a bad lens - bad focusing, misaligned, sometimes fixable , sometimes hopeless. I was just wondering since the v2 is quite old, if could be a batch or two of "lemons", since i guess QC was not so tight as it should be now.
fungus and foginess for sure, problem is im buying over the internet, and in a shop, so I will have to take their word on it. thank you for your tips, your photos made me buy it ( as other ppl as well ) but seeing that you had gorgeous photos with it in a M6 and then in a M8 made me assured. seems like a brilliant lens, cant wait to try it ( still have to buy the body though, second M7 seems to be :) )
cheers to all and thank you again for a very informative thread :)
I received my 'lux 50mm vs 3 yesterday (Thanks again Kyle !!) and shot one roll of film already, can't wait to see the results ! Did a short test with my R-D1s also and ... wow !!
Gabriels photos made me also finally decide on this lens .... (and the thread about the soul of the Summilux here in RFF)
-Gabor
Gabor, you are going to love it!
so i think we should get some compensation from Gabriel, at least he was responsible for two people buying the 'lux .) GabEviel you should be renamed :)
He might not be happy about this idea ... ;) But I like the lens !!
Gabriel M.A.
03-16-2007, 05:07
Wow, that's four people that have told me they've bought this lens because of me.
Does Leica have a commission program? :D
Glad to help. Look at Todd Hanz's Summilux pics; they're deal-makers.
Does Leica have a commission program? :D
Heh, not for sales of used lenses which effectively prevent people from buying new production lenses!!! :eek: :D
laverda3c
03-17-2007, 06:36
...stuff deleted...
50mm F1.4 Summilux 1959-1961 - Type 1 SN#1,645,300-1,844,000
This version was only made for two years and was replaced by Type 2, which featured a new optical computation and increased performance (especially at 1.4).
...stuff deleted...
This is all very strange. I see the date of 1959 is the generally accepted production starting date of the summilux-m. However mine has a serial number of 1644xxx. Checked the mount closely and it is definitely an m-mount rather than a screw-mount with adapter.
I would be curious to know the history of my lens. I have (hopefully) attached a (poor) picture of it.
Cheers,
Mark -%)
According to the Hove Leica book 7th ed. p. 137 the Summilux began manufacture in 1959 with serial nr. 1640601.
one question though.. is 850-900 pounds ( 1300 eu or 1500 usd ) a fair price for a E46 summilux in very good condition ? i have no idea how to rate ( price wise ) these lens
laverda3c
03-17-2007, 15:28
According to the Hove Leica book 7th ed. p. 137 the Summilux began manufacture in 1959 with serial nr. 1640601.
Thank you for the reference for the starting serial number of Summilux lenses.
Cheers,
Mark -%)
dreamsandart
03-17-2007, 17:47
Yes, 50 Summilux production was introduced in 1959 and started at 1640601. Based on the previous fast 50 Summarit with newer type glass that was developed in the mid 50s. Interestingly the lens layout is very similar to the newest Noctilux.
In 1961 when the newer designed - and improved image quality - Summilux was introduced at serial no. 1844001, Leitz made no official announcement of the new lens, its only since 'collectors' found this information that its been well known to photographers and the older [now] 1st version design became the less desirable of the 50 Summilux versions.
The first 500 or so 1st version Summilux lenses did have a couple mount differences. The focus ring machined grip ridges of these were on the 'mountains' with smooth 'valleys', the opposite arrangement of all Summilux 43 lens made after, and the engraved focus scale was extended with a few more meter/feet values added. Lens hoods of the early lenses till the introduction of the black anodized version in 1968 were solid well made with beautiful black crinkle paint finish and chrome rim, but the newer 'vented' style and these are interchangeable with any of the 43 versions.
Although the 1st version has become the Summilux folks don't usually actively look for, it has a special image quality. Yes, its low/medium contrast at its wider apertures, but has a very smooth look that can be said is 'beautiful', a great lens with people and for 'atmosphere' when you don't want to be 'knocked off your feet' with a modern look. It has very low distortion, and a flat field. Like most older lens designs stopping down will sharpen the image and increase contrast, so you can think of this lens as giving you 'options' of image look. Nice with B&W films and a 'softer' rendition with color. There are still some great photographers still making great images with this 1st version lens. And as was mentioned to me recently and I agree, its a lens to have when you don't want your images to look like everyone else.
Gabriel M.A.
03-17-2007, 19:55
Although the 1st version has become the Summilux folks don't usually actively look for, it has a special image quality. Yes, its low/medium contrast at its wider apertures, but has a very smooth look that can be said is 'beautiful', a great lens with people and for 'atmosphere' when you don't want to be 'knocked off your feet' with a modern look.
I couldn't agree more. Right before I bought my E46 Summilux, I had bought a first version Summilux; the images were "soft", but the rendition was beautiful, specially in B&W, but I was very pleased with the slide film shots I took with it.
Why didn't I keep it? I spotted a faint but clear beginning of fungus growth right at the edge of the front element, on top. My heart sunk. So for a few hundred dollars more, they let me exchange it for what is now my pre-asph Summilux. :)
one question though.. is 850-900 pounds ( 1300 eu or 1500 usd ) a fair price for a E46 summilux in very good condition ? i have no idea how to rate ( price wise ) these lens
I payed 1270 USD for my vs 3 Summilux (silver, integrated hood, original box, pouch, original caps, and paper work) all in excellent condition. The silver is usually a little bit more expensive ... so I would say 1500 USD is the very upper limit for me ... (In the shop - Sapporo, Japan - were I sold my Nikon stuff, they have a black Summilux 50 mm vs 3 - only lens with two caps - for 108.000 Yen ~ 950 USD)
-Gabor
Harry Lime
03-17-2007, 21:10
Yep, the history of the Lux can be a little confusing.
I'm starting to think that the serial number ranges, given in various books and on the internets, aren't all that accurate. Also Leica is notorious for being a little on the sloppy side when it comes to keeping track of serial numbers, so who knows what sources many of the authors are relying on.
The whole thing gets even more confusing once you throw in the special editions (black paint, LTM mount etc).
But what it boils down to are the different optical computations, of which there are three.
I agree with what someone said earlier regarding the performance of Type 2 and 3.
It may be the same formula, but the mounts are entirely different, as are the colors of the coatings. I would also bet money that the newer version (with the collapsible hood) is built to higher tolerances and perhaps may have been tweaked in other ways, perhaps different glass. For one thing Leica has switched to lead free glass in recent years and glass types are sometimes discontinued. Considering that the lens was in production for several decades these are real possibilities.
In any case the safest bet is probably to get the las pre-ASPH version that focuses to .7 meters and has the built in hood. As I mentioned earlier, I have this lens and think it's terrific. Below f8 it's not as sharp as the current Summicron (mostly the corners), but as everyone knows, sharpness isn't everything.
HL
thank you harry, hopefully I will pick up a pre/asph 50mm v3 summilux on monday :)
I would also bet money that the newer version (with the collapsible hood) is built to higher tolerances
You are probably right, but the other side of that coin is that several newer designs have proven to be designed in ways that rely on methods that are less durable mechanically than earlier designs. I am thinking, for example, of the reports of the v4 35mm (pre-ASPH) Summicron lenses coming unglued. Trade-offs, compromises...no magic bullets (or perfect lenses)...
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