Fed / Zorki "flap"

[ruben]

Hellow FSU user brothers,

I feel ashamed to confess it, but besides my several Kievs I happen to own only one Fed 2. That's all my knowledge at the wide Fed/zorki variations.

a) Can anyone explain me why this noisy "flap" of the curtains ?

b) Are there any differences in "flap"/sound level among the many Fed and Zorki models, and if there are - who is the quietest ?

c) Are there any home arrangements one can make to reduce noise, besides using a case ?

No Kievnik provokatzia, I am really curious. I am getting interested in those dioptric adjustments.

Cheers,
Ruben

[Michael I.]

servicing a shutter usually quiets it down but soviet leica clones are lowd as a rule of thumb.

[ruben]

..... but soviet leica clones are lowd as a rule of thumb.

Why ?............

[Michael I.]

crude machinery,high tolerances

[gb hill]

Hello Ruben, I think the noisy flap sound is just a charistic of the FSU that one has to live with, just like the quietness of a Leica is to it's owner. I have grown to enjoy the slap on my FSU's, especially the Zorki 2c I have. Outside I doubt the shutter is very loud at all. I took my Fed 5 to relatives over the Christmas hollidays and used it indoors w/flash, and it was quite loud but no one minded. Then my QL-17 is too quiet and many times I would wonder if the shutter was broken. So I like the sound of the soviet cameras. Such a manly sound I think.:D

[ully]

I think it funny that there would be a flap about that. Try shooting with a Mamiya 645 if you want to hear loud.

Cheers

[ZorkiKat]

Some FED or Zorki just fire with more noise than other FED/Zorki, even within the same model groups. One of the most quiet-firing RF I have is a Zorki-1, and the noisiest I have are also FED and Zorki.

A lot can be traced to the type of shutter used in the cameras. The early FED and Zorki used a wrap-around lath (shutter cloth goes around the metal lath or spine). These shutters don't fire with much noise, often equalling the firing sound of an equivalent Leica.

The later (the models which followed FED-1 and Zorki-1) ones used an exposed metal lath where the cloth is crimped within. The exposed metal accounts for the extra noise- when they reach the end of their traverse, the curtain laths strike each other, as well as the metal parts of the shutter crate, and create the noise. Some FED-1 and Zorki-1 whose shutters have been replaced may be found with this type of shutter, and thus fire with more noise.

Some servicing may reduce noise, but nothing much can be done with shutters with metal laths. Those with the old-style shutters can be made less noisy.

Many cameras have shutters which are a bit too overtensed. Over tensioning not only creates more difficult winding, but also causes the shutters to traverse with more inertia and more noise. Restoring the correct tension (in FED and Zorki, the spring loaded shutter rollers need only 4-5 turns, sometimes, even less) can reduce the noise.

Jay

[Xmas]

Jay

I've listened to mine and all the metal ones are noisy, all the fabric sewn over quiet, good information.

You dont have engineering drawings for the backbones for the sewn over shutters? Some of my early ones have been converted, and when replacing I'd like to change them back, rather then replace noisy with noisy. Ive not had to take a fabric apart yet...

Noel



Noel

[ZorkiKat]

Noel

A good machinist can probably mill a lath for you to replace the 'replacements'. The old-style laths are quite simple affairs- just a straight piece of metal with two cut-out indents for the straps on both ends. I don't have any of these out right now, but I can make a tracing of one when I do my next round of repairs- got five FED-1 queued for restoration.

In fact, I don't think that exact specs are even critical. You can use the current crimped spines to get the width and length. The laths I've seen don't seem to be of exactly the same size. Which camera (FED/Zorki?) are you working on?

Jay




Jay

I've listened to mine and all the metal ones are noisy, all the fabric sewn over quiet, good information.

You dont have engineering drawings for the backbones for the sewn over shutters? Some of my early ones have been converted, and when replacing I'd like to change them back, rather then replace noisy with noisy. Ive not had to take a fabric apart yet...

Noel



Noel

[Xmas]

Jay

I dont have as many as you, but I think only a few dont need a rebuild, and they have sewn shutters so I dont have a sample, many other pressed metal ones, have pretty string of pearls problems, where the shutter has more holes than a collander. Most are pressed metal, it appears like it was more convenient to replace rather then refurbish shutters.

Thanks - the problem is I'd not want to strip a shutters, for investigation, if it might be ok, your information is probably enough. need to find cloth material, ribbon and some scraps of CRES.

Fed1s and Zorki1s, but no Fed-Zorkis

Noel

[ZorkiKat]

Jay

I dont have as many as you, but I think only a few dont need a rebuild, and they have sewn shutters so I dont have a sample, many other pressed metal ones, have pretty string of pearls problems, where the shutter has more holes than a collander. Most are pressed metal, it appears like it was more convenient to replace rather then refurbish shutters.

Thanks - the problem is I'd not want to strip a shutters, for investigation, if it might be ok, your information is probably enough. need to find cloth material, ribbon and some scraps of CRES.

Fed1s and Zorki1s, but no Fed-Zorkis

Noel


Noel

I sometimes suspect that some of the last FED-1 actually were given shutters with crimped metal laths. FED were ahead of KMZ (I think) to use these, and all the FED-2 I've seen had this type of shutter. It might as well be that the crimped metal spines were already around when the last FED-1 were getting off the lines. KMZ on the other hand continued the use of the wrap around lath up to the "2C" models, perhaps even the Zorki-3.

The crimped metal shutters were probably the only types around when time came to replace worn shutters. It's indeed easier to use- no measurements or sewing needed. Speaking of sewing, I've never sewn any of the wrap-arounds I repaired. They're held only by rubber glue and the hold appears to be good. The cloth would tear first before the bond is broken. Perhaps sewing was an insurance in those days before there was rubber glue or stronger adhesives. :)

And lastly, you may already have a FED-Zorki without knowing it. The earliest of the Zorki are very FED-like, meaning had FED, instead of Zorki features. Like having round pressure plates, tear-drop RF feelers, etc. They are FED-Zorki, but without the engraving responsible for the great price divide. :p

Jay

[Xmas]

Jay

Thanks you are a mine of knowledge. Alas my 1a (062xx) only missed the Fed-Zorki cut off by 500 or so, so has everthing but the name. It is in really nice condition after I bent it back into shape, and a sewn shutter that looks ok...

The 1as are a smaller series than the Fed-Zorkis, it is all in the name.

But there is film in the 1a, and a light yellow filter.

Noel

[ruben]

Noel, a bit of mercy: What is a 1a ?

[Xmas]

Ruben

So sorry, Jay is talking about Fed-Zorkis, and saying he has not got one, I've never seen one... and I had lapsed into a world of my own.

What happened the Nazis overrun the Fed factory, and post WWII they started up in KMZ making Fed follow ons called Fed-Zorkis they made about 5600, and they are rare. Then KMZ decided to change the name to Zorki and started the Zorki 1a, 1b, 1c, 1d, 1e, 2 series of near leica II 'clones'.

Only a collector can easily tell the difference indeed the e-bay people paint them black or gold and sell them as rare Leica II copies...

But Jay & I were talking about the flap (bang) of the curtains, or how to reduce the noise - by using curtains where the leading and training edges were rubberised... Back to your topic...

So if your fed 2 has pressed metal edges (the production standard) they are part of the noise problem but you could reduce this by backing off the preload in the spring tension and replacing the curtains with rubberised leading and training edges, your answer.

Noel

P.S. If you go walking in your mountains then the Zorki 1s and 2s are light to carry.

Noel

[TVphotog]

A 1A is the first type of Zorki or Fed. The soviets changed several things during the runs of their cameras, but wouldn't change the number or name. So you would have a Zorki 1, Zorki 1a, 1b etc till they changed to the Zorki 2. You see this most often with the FED series of cameras. I believe the FED 2 runs from A up through E or F maybe higher...

[Jocko]

It's worth remembering that these gradations are the work of subsequent historians and collectors - as far as I know the Soviets never described cameras as a "1a, 1b..." etc. There was just a continual process of modification, so there are often interim variations as well. For example, I have a Zenit 12XP SLR which (new from the box) combines parts from the old 12XP and the "new" 122.

It's a bit like quantum reality, where something only becomes solid when you look at it, but is otherwise just part of the (production line) flow :D

Cheers, Ian :)

[Xmas]

Ian

The Red Army did not type their T34 either it was the Nazi tankers that call them pigs heads (for the short 75mm) or whatever - the 85mm made an effective anti tank gun.

Jay was lamenting that the name plate made a big difference to the value but the camera was the same.

Noel

[lushd]

Purely anecdotally - I have a Zorki 4 recently restored to health bu Oleg that is quieter than my Leica IIIa and every bit as smooth to use. An awful lot depends on age and condition. I am constantly delighted by the way a well set up Zorki operates.

[Jocko]

Ian

The Red Army did not type their T34 either it was the Nazi tankers that call them pigs heads (for the short 75mm) or whatever - the 85mm made an effective anti tank gun.

Jay was lamenting that the name plate made a big difference to the value but the camera was the same.

Noel

Absolutely Noel - I just thought it might help Ruben :)

Cheers, Ian

[harry01562]

I have a well-serviced Zorki 1 that is close to my Barnack Leica's in noise level. I also like the fact that it doesn't have strap loops, as it fits into a pocket very nicely. Buy one of these from someone like Oleg, with a fresh CLA, and you'll find the FSU old stuff is not bad at all.

Harry

[ZorkiKat]

Am I the only one who actually welcomes the idea of receiving a less-than-perfect Zorki in the mail? :D :D :D Really, I have sometimes wished that a yet to come Zorki would have some shutter problems, so I could take it apart and restore it. They seem to be more challenging. And on several occasions have I actually bid on cameras which were stated to have defects. Latest proof is a clutch of non-functional FED-1....I am really sick in the head! :D

Noel, one more fact that your "1a" is indeed of the FED-Zorki lineage: The earliest instruction booklets for these Zorki describe them as "FED-type" cameras. :-)

FED maintained the use of round pressure plates (as were found in the earliest of Leica?) in all of the FED-1 they made. Zorki used this for some time.
But when they came on their own, they used the band-aid shaped pressure plates found in almost all Leica and Canon bottomloaders. The Zorki pressure plates are almost an exact match with the Leica's will even interchange.

A well made FED or Zorki will shoot as good as a Leica III or II. Having handled both makes, I could not see why the Soviet Leica clones cannot shoot as good as the German Originals, unless of course the former lose calibration. Any perceived issue based on the appearance of a FED or Zorki will be in a Leica too.

Jay

[rxmd]

Could you theoretically use a Zorki-1 sewn shutter curtain in a later model?

[Xmas]

Philipp
I understood Jay's answer was that the carriers could either be the exposed metal or shielded matal. You need a source for the latter or to make your own, if you want a quieter late Fed or Zorki or any of the many people who copied the LTM shutter.
Rubens question answered?
Noel

[rxmd]

I understood Jay's answer was that the carriers could either be the exposed metal or shielded matal. You need a source for the latter or to make your own, if you want a quieter late Fed or Zorki or any of the many people who copied the LTM shutter.

Yeah, I was wondering if I could install the curtain from an old Zorki in a Zorki-6 or if there is any substantial difference between the curtains (different length, width, tensile strength, whatever). There might be a donor Zorki-1.

Philipp

[Xmas]

Philipp
I had not meant for you to draw that conclusion.
a) an origional curtain & ribbons are probably worn out
b) I think later curtains are slightly wider, and backwards compatible
If you have the metal work from an early curtain then if it is not damaged you need new ribbons and curtain material...
It is easier to get a set of the noisy curtains from the e-bay suppliers...
Jay will give you his slant, I think he does not sleep (any more then his cats).
Noel

[ZorkiKat]

Philipp

Regarding your question whether an old style curtain can run in a later model which was given the crimped-metal spine/lath, I believe it should work. I have
done this with a FED-2. The camera came with a broken shutter, and the original lath found there was the exposed metal type. I couldn't pry the metal lath open (Maizenberg's instructions said that the crimped metal laths could be pried to replace the curtains they carried) properly and ended with a badly mangled one. So I took a set of surplus 'wrap-around' laths, which thankfully were the same in length as this FED-2's originals and installed them in the camera.

The camera had no problems with the old-style shutter laths. The channels through which the shutters traverse are formed by the baffle and the inner wall of the film gate- any issue about the width of these channels can easily be resolved by slightly modifying the position of the baffles. Not a difficult thing to do since the baffles get off during shutter repair and then installed at a position determined by the thickness of the new installed shutter.

Salvaging a complete shutter from, say a Zorki-1, for installation in a later model isn't likely to be good. A good shutter should, by all means remain inside a good camera! :D Stripping will weaken both blind and strap. The only salvageable parts are the metal laths. Shutter cloth and strap should be new.

Noel- my cats sleep 21 hours a day. They spend 2.5 hours eating and doing their other catly duties and functions. The remaining 30 minutes are spent looking for, and finding novel ways to sleep! :D :D :D

Jay

[Xmas]

Jay

This may be a bit OT, cats have two sleep modes, the nap and the REM sleep (rapid eye movement), they spent most of their day in light sleep, napping. I thought you never sleep given you answer my questions so promptly sorry...

Thanks for all your help.

Noel

[dee]

TOO MUCH DETAIL !!!
It's all totally over my ASDee head !!!
Maybe it's good that my Fed 1 / Zorki 1 s are all ID challenged Leica mis-fits !
At least I know what my Zorki S '' Leicas '' really are !
[ though one seems to have a Z 1 body !!! ]
But I love 'em to bits - just playing wth them , winding on , etc .
some are smoother, quieter than others ,but all dee-lightfull .
Two Leica Fed ones are eagerly awaited from Oleg , so that I will know how they all should be .
dee

[ruben]

FED 2 ordered from Oleg + plus extra anti-noise powder:

http://www.okvintagecamera.com/data/pics/312.jpg


I am courious about Oleg. Let's see.

[Xmas]

TOO MUCH DETAIL !!!
but all dee-lightfull .


But Dee if you are trying to fix one and cant stand noise then necessary.
Sorry if your were bored, may your shutters never perish...

Noel