Seems banding is still around [Archive]

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pundit

01-25-2007, 17:34

Hmm - a few of my photos from today's lunchtime foray displayed some banding.

Sailor Ted

01-25-2007, 17:50

I've shot 2000 plus photos on mine so far and I have one example of banding when the sun was riseing and at the extreme left side of my lens- half in the frame, half out. iEye here I come.

erikhaugsby

01-25-2007, 18:34

(Thread Hijack) Hey Ted, I've seen you use "iEye" in a few comments recently--might I inquire as to what it might be? (/Thread Hijack)

sorry bout that...

Sailor Ted

01-25-2007, 19:11

Erik,
After posting two different links to two different photogs both highly talented and both getting world-class results from their M8's I was met with the same response (by some). Namely "His photos are wonderful no matter the camera- he could produce iconic images on a cell phone" or words/ sentiment to that effect. I have also noticed that when an image taken by lesser photogs is not up to the same standards as those from the photographers in my posts it’s automatically the fault of the camera. This got me to thinking- what people really want is a camera that floats around and takes miraculous pictures "for them." Thus was born the idea that became the iEye- see below and I'm sure you'll get the idea : )

I have alluded to, and spelled out what many photographers really want in a camera- one that gets it right nearly every time. And if we’re all honest with our selves (sadly myself included) that’s what we’re all really looking for- eye popping shots 99.999% of the time. Well it seems my old buddy Steve Jobs is a lurker here on RFf and sent me an email after reading a few of my posts; much to my surprise. Now I had thought a camera like this would come from Canon but it seems Steve, an avid photog- (who knew?) Is working on a passion outside of iPods and Apples. In conjunction with Jim Norrod of Segway, and Raytheon Corp they are developing the ultimate photographic tool- the iEye.

The iEye will be based on the Segway platform that is to say it will be mounted to a modified Segway. The camera is being developed by Raytheon Corp and will features a seven lens bayonet mount much like the rotating barrels in an A10 tank buster or a more commonly understood rifle, the Gatling Gun. Five of the lenses (Raytheon developed these in conjunction with Schneider) will be primes with one wide zoom and one telephoto zoom to fill in the shots missed by the primes. The computer will of course be from Apple and will be fully compatible with both Windows and Macintosh operating systems.

The concept of the iEye is devilishly clever and I’m still somewhat in awe as this will certainly be a life changing event for me and many other photography lovers (you know who you are). The camera is programmable to emulate any photographer or photographic style you choose for example if you want to compose pictures like that of Henri Cartier-Bresson, Christopher Anderson, Erich Hartman (or Kartman from South Park), Alex Webb or Annie Leopwitz, and on, and on, and on just select the photog from a pull down menu located on the cameras computer or on your laptop via wireless the camera will then create images in the style of your choice until a new photographer or group of photographers are chosen. And with new photographers and photographic styles being added every day there’ll be lots of fun for the whole family.

And speaking of the family I really like what they’re doing for the kids. Somehow they’ve been able to program an algorithm that conveys what pictures would be like if taken by Barney, Big Bird and The Little Mermaid. As a test, Steve asked me to choose from several pictures which ones I thought were taken by Big Bird or The Little Mermaid and in every instance somehow I KNEW. And to keep the iEye fresh, It has a sophisticated “learning” algorithm to study works from photographers not on it’s list; so let’s say you wanted to emulate a photographer like captainvideo, all you need do is select his gallery on Flickr on your iEye’s wireless web browser and he’ll learn the compositional style and not only take images in the photographers style of your choice, but iEye will even handle the post processing and prints up to A4.

Now for the fun part. Let’s say you want to shoot some Ansel Adams like early morning shots at your neighborhood park. Not a morning person? Not to worry- in fact you don’t have to be any kind of person ever again! Just select Ansel Adams from the photographic style pull down menu, select the time of day you would like your masterpieces snapped, then go online through your iEyes online browser to Mapquest and designate your iEye’s geographic area of coverage and time table parameters. Now go to bed and sleep in. While you sleep your creative vision is hard at work scouring it’s internal database of satellite shots looking for the best photo ops for tomorrows big event. Then at the preselected time only your creative genus could muster, your little iEye (well not so little in fact it’s bigger then C3PO) is off whirring through the neighborhood on it’s way to express your creative soul and if you selected “shoot any target of opportunity” from it’s myriad of system preferences (and you did because your just that kind of artist) you’ll get a few surprises later with your morning coffee.

Now let’s say you live in a rough neighborhood or you plan on visiting one (this will be a photojournalist’s best friend). Have your iEye equipped with the ultimate theft and vandalism deterrence- a 1.5 million volt Tesla Coil! No matter from what angle the hoodlums come at your iEye they'll get a non lethal (just) bolt of **** there pants and crawl away after they’ve wet themselves jolt. And best of all, whenever the Tesla Coil is activated it takes photos of the whole event for the ultimate in hard-core street photography!

Not a city photog you say? iEye’s got you covered. Order iEye with the optional quadruped motion unit- perfect for climbing stairs or when ever the terrain is uneven. And of course for such photographic opportunities as these you can specify the outdoorsman lens package that will substitute the wide and normal primes for telephoto primes that no telephoto zoom can match.

See Europe (or Baghdad) and amaze your friends with images that only you can create. Take your iEye with you where ever you go- to the beach (never again be embarrassed to take all those bikini clad co-ed shots you know you’ve been dreaming of), the supermarket, or on your next Euro holiday. iEye will not disappoint with pictures of stunning clarity, compositional supplication, and a flare only you can program. One caveat thought. Like the Leica M8, the iEye has but one battery and it’s HEAVY. So heavy in fact that it’s not possible to remove it. So just as with the M8 you’ll have to get your projects done on one charge, or take a break for several hours at the hotel (at least with the iEye you’ll never need to leave your hotel) for a recharge.

Now obviously all this technology and functionality doesn’t come cheap so I’m selling my Leica kit (Hell the Leica and all other cameras will soon be obsolete) for the non-refundable down payment. Later this week I have a meeting with my banker for the loan so I can get on the waiting list early but I’ll most likely need to sell my sailboat to pay the camera off (well most of it) to avoid interest charges on the 30-year loan.

So in summation we will finally have the camera everyone has been secretly longing for. Now if the camera takes a truly great shot there will be no debate- it was the iEye that gets all the credit and of course when an image is not to our liking it’s the iEye’s fault. Yes with the iEye only you can determine it’s creative genius.

Sorry for the hi-jack. Erik if you want to discuss this further PM me or start a new thread.

Ted

Gabriel M.A.

01-25-2007, 19:21

Sailor Ted

01-25-2007, 19:23

Gabriel,
Your sending your M8 back for repairs? Why may I ask? First or second generation- hijack in motion.

Gabriel M.A.

01-25-2007, 19:37

I've been told this is the post-fix generation. It came with firmware 1.09

They got to fix that banding thing; it's annoying, but I have a workaround, so I can live with it for a while. But it must be fixed. The other is, I read that they can adjust the "pressure" of the shutter release. I want it smooth, not "gritty".

I'm not howling around like those that collectively make legends, you know that :) I'm just adding my experience here.

harmsr

01-25-2007, 19:47

Gabriel,

All of the post fix M8s exhibit the vertical banding to the right of center to some extent as you state. It can actually be at all ISOs, but is most noticeable as you state. It is also eliminated at slow shutter speeds by the noise reduction processing prior to writing the RAW file.

Leica has stated it is a firmware error causing this and will be fixed in the 1.10 release that will be coming very shortly.

Relative to the gritty release, it seems to smooth out a lot after use.

Best,

Ray

harmsr

01-25-2007, 19:50

I forgot to mention it is most noticeable with underexposure, from slight to very underexposed.

In low light, I have found that over exposing by about 1/3 really eliminates the band and also drastically improves the noise. I can then drop the exposure back by 1/3 in C1 without image quality issues.

Just my $.02 and experience with the M8 at ISO 640 & 1250. I really have never done any real work at 2500.

Best,

Ray

Gabriel M.A.

01-25-2007, 19:50

(With awe): ooooohh.

Thanks for the info, Ray. You've described where I see the band precisely. I first saw this when recovering info from shadows, and there it was.

I did notice that the slower you got (the shutter speed, that is), the less likely it was to see this. I am not nuts! :)

Now, about smoothing the button out: well, I can certainly try next month :D

Thanks again, that is very helpful info.

Sailor Ted

01-25-2007, 19:51

Good to know Gabriel and everyone knows you're no Troll- the mad dogs that howl at the moon typically have never even seen this camera let alone used one. Their arguments read like a pull to talk doll.

I hope you get this sorted- knock on wood but mine's working fine and no banding even in the city lights of Las Vegas after dark at ISO 1250. I don't go faster then that so I can't comment.

Gabriel M.A.

01-25-2007, 20:03

Alrighty, then :)

Well, I've decided to use ISO 2500 only during *extreme* cases. I've been able to get some usable images.

I don't shoot RAW when shooting anything higher than ISO 800 with my Canon gear, anyway, I let the camera take care of the noise-reduction, and it's much better -- I trade off some detail to time spent cleaning it off later on; believe me, it's a very good trade-off. I think the limit for shooting RAW with the M8 is going to be 640. Certainly shoot JPEG with 1250 and 2500, with an eye to do B&W if I have to go down the 1250 or 2500 route. This is what a lot of people using the RD-1 do with 800 and above, I've noticed.

Gabriel M.A.

01-25-2007, 20:07

For the demo purposes, here's the first picture I noticed it in:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/136/364968714_b58e0d7518_o.jpg

This is at ISO 640, RAW.

Gabriel M.A.

01-25-2007, 20:09

And here's another one:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/178/369478491_5856a7b46c_o.jpg

ISO 2500, JPEG Fine (converted to B&W later) - No banding.

John Camp

01-25-2007, 20:17

Is there a band in the portrait? I don't see it.

JC

Sailor Ted

01-25-2007, 20:21

I don't see it either- nice image though. (that may be why I am so happy with my M8)

P:

Gabriel M.A.

01-25-2007, 20:27

kbg32

01-25-2007, 20:47

Yeah, that was a detour... :p

Mine exhibits banding, sometimes at ISO 640 if shooting RAW, and always at ISO 1250 and 2500 if shooting RAW. If I shoot JPEG, the banding disappears; I attribute this to the noise-reduction processing in-camera.

Mine is going back for repairs, but not before I take it with me to Paris :D

That's why I learned how to hand-hold at low shutter speeds for.

Gabriel, I was informed by Leitz in New Jersey that there will be a firmware upgrade available sometime in February that will address many issues - banding included I believe as well as the need to run the battery down a couple of times before it is able to accept a full charge.

Sailor Ted

01-25-2007, 20:56

Gabriel, I was informed by Leitz in New Jersey that there will be a firmware upgrade available sometime in February that will address many issues - banding included I believe as well as the need to run the battery down a couple of times before it is able to accept a full charge.

Is this why on a full charge I show one bar below a full charge? (This is not Canon fodder for those who spend time here but do not have this camera.)

jaapv

01-26-2007, 01:48

Thanks, Ted. Well, this doesn't show up at all in anything lower than ISO 640.

John -- If the monitor is "properly" calibrated and you don't have the contrast all the way down, that band on the first photo should show up on your screen.

It may not show on older monitors. But trust me, it's there. Just to the right of the glasses on his neck. All across the frame from top to bottom.

Gabriel-I don't see it - and I have a half-year old, fully calibrated monitor.... Maybe you could PS it a bit to show us what you mean?

Btw this one was taken with my first-gen body before it went to Solms.It should have come out like a zebra, but it didn't...

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e32/jaapv/dok.jpg

pundit

01-26-2007, 04:40

Yep, Guess that I am either unlucky or Solms has decided to punish me for being such a poor and unworthy photographer.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/85974234@N00/sets/72157594500764785/

3 of 33 photos 1/25/07 exhibited banding. Not to worry, I would have noticed and deleted except that I do not review my basket until I get home from work. Old habits die hard. I will speak with Leica support to determine if there is anything particular with my M8 that is outside the expected tolerances. All 3 were taken at ISO 320 and DNG recording only and the banding seems to come from the top toward the center of the image. (They are posted on the link above)

To put it in perspective, shots like "Quality Meats" on my flickr page can be taken quite handily with my Canon EOS Mk II 1Ds, but the subjects would have been facing the camera instead of each other. The positions of the photographed was what I intended, so the M8 works very well for me even if a few are scarred by banding. When I shot film, I had some frames on each and every roll that disappointed my previsualization. I am not unhappy with my purchase - just keeping the palette of facts complete.

Regarding the iEye - I am a mere photographer and simply use the camera in my hand and the iEye appears to be tragically flawed in that it seems to be too automatic. I shall wait for the camera that has a mind meld program so that it records my pre visualization image at +2, dead on, -2 EV so that I can take advantage of HDR to make it rock despite human error in the previsualizing stage.

ywenz

01-26-2007, 06:13

gab, your M8 pictures are nice. Finally... some M8 pics not of random trees and stuff.. and nicely processed too.

pundit

01-26-2007, 07:34

kbg32

01-26-2007, 07:50

Is this why on a full charge I show one bar below a full charge? (This is not Canon fodder for those who spend time here but do not have this camera.)

Ted, yes. I was told to let the battery run down a couple of times. Leave the power save off and the camera on overnight. The new firmware , February release I was told, will aleviate this.

Keith

harmsr

01-26-2007, 09:58

Btw this one was taken with my first-gen body before it went to Solms.It should have come out like a zebra, but it didn't...

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e32/jaapv/dok.jpg

Jaapv,

Nice photo, but sorry it does have the vertical band in it also. You can see it faintly running top to bottom to the right of center or about 40% into the frame from the right edge.

Leica has explained the problem to me and stated it would be fixed in the next firmware release.

Best,

Ray

Sailor Ted

01-26-2007, 10:01

gab, your M8 pictures are nice. Finally... some M8 pics not of random trees and stuff.. and nicely processed too.

As if that's all we have been seeing as of late- really :confused:

jaapv

01-26-2007, 10:05

Jaapv,

Nice photo, but sorry it does have the vertical band in it also. You can see it faintly running top to bottom to the right of center or about 40% into the frame from the right edge.

Leica has explained the problem to me and stated it would be fixed in the next firmware release.

Best,

Ray

That is a 1.06 camera before it was fixed. My post was about horizontal banding, which is should have had in abundance on this type of shot at ISO 1250.... It didn't.

ywenz

01-26-2007, 10:11

Jaapv,

Nice photo, but sorry it does have the vertical band in it also. You can see it faintly running top to bottom to the right of center or about 40% into the frame from the right edge.

Leica has explained the problem to me and stated it would be fixed in the next firmware release.

Best,

Ray

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e32/jaapv/dok.jpg

Not to mention there is horizontal banding on the left most light. Blow this baby up? the banding will be very apparent.

jaapv

01-26-2007, 11:01

There is Ben. But by no means as obtrusive as it should have been. Look at the light right,, hardly any at all. Anyway, the camera is back from Solms just now and I'll give it a night workout in due course.

GrahamWelland

01-28-2007, 07:33

I just spoke with Leica support and what I was told (after they reviewed my banding photo set on flickr) makes sense within the context that I was operating in.

1) This type of banding is thought to occur when one shoots a photo after immediately powering on the camera or when the camera has reverted to standby mode. The electronics require approximately a second or so latency before all is well with the world before recording images.

2) There is a release of firmware planned which was written to mitigate this.

Excellent (I guess :eek: ) - these conditions match exactly the scenario's that caused banding on my M8 too - both times I had attempted a shot, realised that I had the camera off and then turned it on and shot immediately.

I would note that this has occurred only twice out of 500+ images so far - I'm still in my first week with the camera so learning as I go along. The other 498+ have been simply outstanding in terms of colour and image detail/quality compared even to my DSLR's. The detail resolution (I'm using Zeiss ZM's) is breathtaking at times, especially considering that I'm always shooting handheld.

I'm looking forward to the firmware release! (although I haven't seen instructions anyway in the manual on how I might apply it myself)

http://homepage.mac.com/grahamwelland/Image-Smear.jpg

ferider

01-28-2007, 08:54

OT: Graham, you must have been in Yosemite just about the same time as me !
I'm just scanning a photo that looks almost identical to yours (except for the banding).

Roland.