View Full Version : What's wrong with my Kiev??
It's now probably 6 pages deep in the 35mm classifieds with hundreds of views and no interest!
I don't get it. At least 2 other kievs have sold since. Was I too honest? Should I ignore the obvious traits of an FSU camera and say that it works perfectly and succumb to 'ebay syndrome' with my description??
Something tells me I'm keeping that camera.
It sucks, I have it all up for less than I paid (especially if you grab the sonnar) and no joy!
Looks like funds won't be raised for the CRR job anytime soon after all!
Maybe it's prejudice. People hate the yellow snakeskin, just like my blonde/ginger hair :eek: - you're all so shallow!!! :D
Will swap for non-fsu f/2 LTM lens! :bang:
Blond ginger hair ... yeeuuch! No wonder you do all your self portrates in black and white! :D :D
MinorTones
01-22-2007, 14:43
I sent you a PM Ash about a lens.
a) You do not love this camera, it is obvious.
b) Frame spacing is not an epidemic Kiev issue. No excuse, yours is a defective sample.
c) 45 GBP ? Are you serious ? 45 GBP for a defective model and you call this a price reduction ? Who will prefer not to pay such amount to Fedka for "the real (kiev) thing"?
My sincere two cents,
Ruben
Wow Ruben, way to make enemies.
a) In fact I've taken some of my favourite photo's of a dear friend with the camera. But when money is tight and there are more important things, less used equipment should be sold. If I hadn't spent all of my wages when I HAD a job on a Contax II then I would never dream of selling it.
b) erratic frame spacing IS a widespread problem with kievs and is due to a simpler wind-on mechanism in the camera. It is well documented.
c) yes. £45 is what I paid for it. And it's what it's worth. The price WAS reduced. the price goes down, that is the meaning of 'reduction'. English is my first language I should know.
Please explain "Who will prefer not to pay such amount to Fedka for "the real (kiev) thing"?" as there is a derogatory English phrase used for poor grammar, it's along the lines of "stop talking shi....".
Hi Ash,
Sorry and apologize for giving you a bad feeling. We are in opposed opinions, but for me this is no reason to regard you, or any RFF member as an enemy. I understand you was just joking.
I can understand you are short of money, but this, or the fact that you have paid GBP 45 for a camera that turned to be a defective sample, this would be no reason at all for me to claim the money back from RFF buyers, and be surprised people are not rushing. In case you have got a good Contax, why not selling it instead, at the price you paid ?
Fedka is known for its very high prices and its very high quality gear. It is a fact that for less than 45 GBP you can have a much better camera than the one you are trying to sell.
Nevertheless, the selling price is your absolute domain. But you asked why people are not buying, and I undertook the task of approaching your question seriously and with frankness, from my viewpoint.
Cheers,
Ruben
PS
I think we can agree that beautiful photos are the product of your mind rather than the instrument. But what you are selling is the instrument, not your mind.
Gabriel M.A.
01-22-2007, 15:31
Ruben: a little advice from someone who suffered it first-hand:
"A little sincerity is a dangerous thing, and a great deal of it is absolutely fatal." (Oscar Wilde)
Too bad to hear you've made an enemy; I didn't see anything evil or rude in your comments. Better luck next time! :) :) :)
Ruben has not necessarily made an enemy in me. I hold grudges but the guy hasn't exactly assaulted a friend or family member - so don't think I'm that quick to judge!
In the UK £45 would appear to be a fair price for a Kiev. On the bay you cannot pick one up for less (once the inclusive postage from FSU is calculated) and you mark it as 'defective' yet the images I have had produced through the camera prove even a defective model is of high quality.
I'm not sure if you mean for me to sell the Contax to raise cash. Why would I? It's my every day camera. I would be without my favourite camera if I sold it! :D
Against all better judgement I'll join this thread ...
I don't want to appear to be taking sides, but I agree with Ash about the Kiev frame spacing issue. I have 2, a 2a and nice 4a. Both came from fedka and both have erratic frame spacing. Not so much that images overlap, but it can be close. I like to think that using a Kiev film cannister on the take-up side helps, but I haven't put enough film through them to swear to it. I mentioned the framing to Yuri(fedka) last time something went to New York for a CLA. He indicated that it is a common problem with the design and there's not much to be done about it. As long as the images don't mingle it doesn't bother me.
Don't feel bad Ruben ... he's young and full of fight ...unlike us older rather jaded individuals!
He really is a nice guy ... I can vouch for that! :)
Well, Ash asked, and Ruben gave his opinion, somewhat bluntly, but completely honestly. I can respect that.
Personally, I find the yellow snakeskin quite attractive. Ash, it is a bit expensive, but I understand wanting to break even. Good luck, I hope someone will give it a good home.
Not taking sides here, but frame spacing is a common problem with Kievs, and with pre-war Contaxes for that matter.
SCOTFORTHLAD
01-23-2007, 01:16
I very nearly bought Ash's nice Kiev even before it was listed--it was only the Snakeskin which deterred me---But then I'm a dozy old fart,with little chance of redemption:o
Brian.
Hi Ash,
Seeing as you asked - I was looking at it recently and may well get a Kiev someday, but I'm not interested in yours for several reasons. I'd want a "real" Kiev and not a fake Contax, I hate the yellow snakeskin, and I think it's too expensive (Actually, being so unpleasantly pimped, IMO, I doubt I'd want it at any price).
markinlondon
01-23-2007, 01:56
If it's any consolation, Ash nobody wanted my XA (with A11!) for 40 quid. Sometimes they just don't sell and you have to start again.
As for the Witness stage, I too have a Kiev 2a with frame spacing problems, and stiff winding/cocking knob, bouhgt from a top Soviet seller at $105 before shipment. But I have another four Kievs without frame spacing problems. Would I post an ad asking for my defective Kiev 2a $105, and depict it as "usual Kiev erratic frame spacing". I don't think it will be correct.
Now how serious is Ash Kiev erratic frame spacing ? A good working Kiev may produce spaces between frames from 0 to 4 mm. A Kiev producing up to 10mm is still a very much usable camera, whose price should not consider too much this minor problem. Therefore a clarification here may help the sale.
Good working Kievs, to be sold at expensive prices honouring their status, are precision machines and there is no reason to extend on this. Therefore contrasting Kievs to "the real thing" is a misfortunate generalization. The fact that a camera is sold under the label "Contax" is not a guarantee that it works at all. Otherwise, Mr Sherer and other prestigious Contax/Kiev repairmen would nothave found a living there.
Furthermore, while Contaxes have not suffered from true erratic quality control, they have suffered from aging not less than Kievs, and according to Contax/Kiev expert historian and repairman Peter Hennig, some Contaxes are not salvageable.
Personally, my smoothest Kiev so far is a 1984 model, purchased from the same top Soviet seller mentioned above, a tiny bit smoother than the wonderful Kiev 2a I purchased from Fedka.
Based on all these, I am quite curious to know what the fate of a Kiev would be, if given the same expensive/expert CLA that Contaxes are getting. I should write it on Jorge's wish list.
Cheers,
Ruben
Right. to clear this all up and lay the thread to rest. Someone is trading me for a Canon lens, so I'm happy.
The nitty gritty.
Frame spacing: erratic from 2mm to 0.1mm, never overlap, and never ridiculously seperated. The same is true of my pre-war Contax that has some framespacing irregularities occasionally, and is definitely legit.
The 'Contax' plate. This was 'pimped' by Spark on this forum. It is NOT being sold as a Contax, nor a 'fake contax' (in itself a kiev IS a contax, but in a different town by different engineers on the same machinery; read the history). It was marketed as a Kiev 2a/4a as it has top plate parts from both, and a front plate from a Contax. I'm sure I missed it out, but I should have noted the camera is sold with all the original parts, such as the Kiev front plate in Cyrillic and Roman text.
Yellow Snakeskin is a Aki Asahi covering, and regardless of aesthetics is sure to be hard-wearing. Function over form.
The price was fair I thought. Sterling appears to be a powerful currency right now. It's not my fault if the world market decides £45 is expensive for the rest of you. :)
Ruben. No hard feelings at all.
Thank you to those who have defended my opinions or said kind words, and I don't think anyone has taken sides, this is a discussion not a battle!
Anyone else I missed, I wasn't paying attention :)
And thanks Keith, maybe recent events have given me a persona a little more on the edge than usual. I'm a nice guy deep down, honest ;)
The Kiev should be winging its way off to a new owner shortly.
Hi Ash,
Someone is trading me for a Canon lens, so I'm happy
Congratulations.
It is NOT being sold as a Contax, nor a 'fake contax' (in itself a kiev IS a contax, but in a different town by different engineers on the same machinery; read the history)
I *know* that Ash, I'm not stupid. I meant I don't want one with "Contax" on it if it's a Kiev - understand?
I should have noted the camera is sold with all the original parts, such as the Kiev front plate in Cyrillic and Roman text
You did. For £45 I don't want one I have to reassemble myself.
Yellow Snakeskin is a Aki Asahi covering, and regardless of aesthetics is sure to be hard-wearing. Function over form.
Makes no difference to people who don't want it.
It's not my fault if the world market decides £45 is expensive for the rest of you.
People who thought it was too expensive simply told you so honestly - I thought that was what you wanted?
*You* asked for opinions Ash, and I gave you my honest ones. So there's no point you arguing - if you don't like my reasons for not wanting to buy your camera, that's just tough. And I'm please you've found a satisfactory deal.
Now I don't think I'll ever want a Kiev...
why do you need to reassemble an assembled camera? are you planning on taking it to pieces?
oscroft. I understand your points, but for my sanity i'm going to ignore them.
raftman - you're missing out then! :D
In fact, I apologise to anyone on this thread that I've offended. It appears I'm using it as an outlet for other things right now that are in no way related.
I'm sorry. You all have pretty clear views and opinions, and as I said I respect them, but I don't necessarily agree. In that sense I'd hope you will all stop being so blunt, and learn tact. Because without it feathers only rile up, no-one smiles
Kievs can be a bit of a tough sell. If you buy a nice one from a place like Fedka, you'd likely never be able to get that price when you try to resell it.
I bought a Kiev from Fedka - had it CLA'd by Yuri's technician and had the covering changed and then bought a Menopta lens for it. All told - perhaps I have $160 put into the camera. (The CLA was $90). Perhaps a lot of money for a Kiev, but, to my mind, not a bad amount of money for what is a bullet-proof rangefinder camera.
I knew I would never get it back if I ever tried to sell the camera - or even half of it back. And I can't. It's just more than people want to pay for a Kiev - fortunately, I don't mind being "stuck" with it even if I don't use it as much as I should.
Good luck, ash!
I recently picked up two Kiev 4 series bodies, one "a" and one "am". The "a" came from FrankS and is really splendid. I gave it to a friend for Christmas as she loves it. Pretty even frame spacing - good enough for the mini-lab and me to scan.
I picked up a black 4am on *bay for myself after the good experience with the 4a. It had massive frame spacing issues: 9mm at the start of the roll to slightly overlapping by the end. A simple twist of the takeup spool retaining screw to loosen it a bit and everything is fine. The spacing is even and falls mostly between sprocket holes. I'm no camera technician and the info is readily available on the Internet.
The Kiev 4am now travels in my bag/briefcase 100% of the time. I bring the Leica M6 out a lot, but for day to day banging about I'd rather do it with a $75 setup that takes mighty fine pictures for the price.
My understanding and experience is that Kievs were not built to Leica, Nikon or later Contax RF standards - but neither do they demand the prices! A good user $75-100 camera can go a long way with TLC and a CLA. Given that the price of entry for a Leica body and 50mm lens is ~$1500 used these Kievs can be a real bargain (in addition to other brands.)
Still, one cannot expect to regain the purchase and CLA value of a Kiev camera - no matter how usable it is. When you can have a 4a with 50mm Jupiter shipped from Russia for $45 it is hard to justify selling one for $125 after you have paid for a CLA... Kiev, Fed and Zorki are great as users but not so great as long term financial investments.
Just $0.02 from a content Kiev and Leica user.
In fact, I apologise to anyone on this thread that I've offended. It appears I'm using it as an outlet for other things right now that are in no way related.
Fair enough Ash, and sorry if I came across a bit harshly - as you suggest, in a text-only medium such as this it is impossible to get the visual body-language clues that contribute so much to everyday conversation.
And I really am pleased that you did get a satisfactory deal for your Kiev in the end.
Best wishes,
Mark Wood
01-24-2007, 00:33
Gregg has mentioned a solution to the Kiev frame spacing issue and I thought I'd add my experience with this. On the pre "m" series Kievs, you can slacken the screw on the fork that drives the take-up spool, but it still needs to be fairly tight to ensure that it doesn't unscrew when you rewind the film. This won't necessarily happen with the first roll of film but it does eventually.
I found that removing the screw, fork and the many associated spacing washers on a 1969 and two 1975 Kievs revealed a lot of dirt/blackened grease which was basically sticking everything together. I cleaned all of the washers etc with isopropanol, put a VERY THIN layer of sewing machine oil on each (I don't know if that's a good idea but it worked) and reassembled everything with the screw fairly tight and the result...? Perfect (2 mm), consistent frame spacing on three cameras! I have a feeling that the dirt problem could well be more important than the tightness of the screw. Remembering the order of the washers is a different matter...!!
Gregg has mentioned a solution to the Kiev frame spacing issue and I thought I'd add my experience with this. On the pre "m" series Kievs, you can slacken the screw on the fork that drives the take-up spool, but it still needs to be fairly tight to ensure that it doesn't unscrew when you rewind the film. This won't necessarily happen with the first roll of film but it does eventually.
I found that removing the screw, fork and the many associated spacing washers on a 1969 and two 1975 Kievs revealed a lot of dirt/blackened grease which was basically sticking everything together. I cleaned all of the washers etc with isopropanol, put a VERY THIN layer of sewing machine oil on each (I don't know if that's a good idea but it worked) and reassembled everything with the screw fairly tight and the result...? Perfect (2 mm), consistent frame spacing on three cameras! I have a feeling that the dirt problem could well be more important than the tightness of the screw. Remembering the order of the washers is a different matter...!!
Aha, very interesting, I will have a lok at my 4am this weekend and try that out.
Thanks
Matt
Mark Wood
01-24-2007, 05:25
I'm not sure how the 4am fixed take-up spool is put together as I was working with earlier cameras with the "drop out and lose it" variety. I guess there must be a similar system to enable the fixed spool to slip. My Kievs seem to have spent the last few months with the shutters set to "B" and a pencil stuck through the lens mount to mark the spacing!
I don't know whether I've got the right solution or not but it seems to work - I don't want to be held responsible for broken cameras full of oil...!
With the 4am there is a plate (and shims) at the bottom of the fixed take-up spool that is secured by 3 screws. Remove those three screws and lift the plate/shims up. The fixed spool then removes like any other and reveals what looks to me like the "classic" take-up fork found on earlier Kievs. From there you can either loosen the screw inside the take-up fork 1-2 turns or remove the screw completely to disassemble the fork and washers for a clean and lube as described by Mark Wood previously.
Brian, it's been argued that the essential strength of the original Contax design is proven by the fact that most Kievs do indeed work - generally :)
Incidentally, if my experience holds good, there is no possibility of import duties if you buy from Oleg, who is always a sound bet.
Cheers, Ian
Brain
Ash's Kiev is quite cheap if you can tolerate the leather wear, and Contax front plate. His frame spacing problems are pretty typical. You would need a hood...
Ash seems to buy expensive and sell cheap, it must be good to be young...
Noel
SCOTFORTHLAD
01-25-2007, 11:20
Brian, it's been argued that the essential strength of the original Contax design is proven by the fact that most Kievs do indeed work - generally :)
Incidentally, if my experience holds good, there is no possibility of import duties if you buy from Oleg, who is always a sound bet.
Cheers, Ian
Ian,
You are quite right about Oleg,I have dealt with him twice,once for a service,and secondly for a purchase,and not paid duty on either occasion,although the values were not high.Well worth the thought.
Cheers,
Brian.
If your interested in a Kiev 4 with meter Brian I have one sat doing nothing on the desk ,even comes with its original box , English manual and passport and is a 1964 vintage model , The meter even reacts to light :eek: though I need to check it against one of my other meters to see if it's anything like accurate .
PM me if your interested ;)
Paul
SCOTFORTHLAD
01-26-2007, 08:51
If your interested in a Kiev 4 with meter Brian I have one sat doing nothing on the desk ,even comes with its original box , English manual and passport and is a 1964 vintage model , The meter even reacts to light :eek: though I need to check it against one of my other meters to see if it's anything like accurate .
PM me if your interested ;)
Paul
Paul,
Good to deal with you.I am opening a new door with this one!;)
Cheers,
Brian.
Paul
If Brian does not want it I'd be interested.
Noel
Sorry Noel , Brian has taken the plunge and bought the Kiev .
Paul
Hey Noel, I've got to shift 3 of mine, take yer pick (no yellow jobs I'm afraid, but i nearly got one done in wine red snake....hmmm )
Not a bad thread, once you ferret out the good info. :)
Furthermore, some Kiev selling activity energy is arising. From "what is wrong with my Kiev" it is turning into the opposite, what is good with Kievs.
I feel like I want to open my coat at the street and show the pending Kiev gear for sale.
:D
PS,
Yet for all my expanded or overexpanded Kiev gear I am hardly using, I am not going to sell anything at all, only upgrade with more. Therefore, that opening of my coat may be nothing else than an exhibisionist deviation.
A camera for each situation, no camera for all, my Kiev time will come. The Kievs have many cons alongside many pros. Departing from this gem system, for me, will be nothing less than an act of madness.
Russ Pinchbeck, with his wonderful Kiev Survival Site, has engraved the writing in the wall.
PS II,
Jocko, where are you ? have you became an abolitionist ?
mike goldberg
01-27-2007, 08:21
Hey friend Ruben,
Is it GAS [gear acquisition syndrome]?
When I was interested in OM-1, I bought one more than I really needed.
I'm really enjoying the Leica M2 again and have ordered the CV 25/4 Skopar,
in silver to save $30-.
If you sell some of the RF's you are not using, you might enjoy a Bessa :D
Whatever you decide, we like you just as you are.
Ciao, mike
Hey friend Ruben,
If you sell some of the RF's you are not using, you might enjoy a Bessa :D
...............
Ciao, mike
Besides the highly traumatic experience of needing a perfectly working camera already sold, what keeps me out of the Bessa line, is not so much the funds, but design. In my twisted mind, much influenced by the Kiev RFs and Olympus SLRs, a rangefinder for me to be bought must be a quiet camera. The day such Bessa is out of factory, expect me at your home for funds.:D ..........
:bang: ????
mike goldberg
01-27-2007, 12:20
Thumbs up, again my friend.
BOTH the OM-1 & M-2 are, shh... quiet.
You have a lot of cameras [so do I]...
Keep the best; sell the rest, and
consider an M3 or M2. ;) mike
.............Keep the best; sell the rest, and
consider an M3 or M2. ;) mike
Beyond the winding lever, not found at either the Contax or Kiev, or the brighter viewfinder with frame lines (but with smaller baselength than Contax or Kiev), this is what our Big Bartender has written about the M3/M2:
"Four of the most important new M3 features were 1) a combined rangefinder / viewfinder window 2) a single non-rotating shutter dial 3) a bayonet lens mount 4) easier film loading. Strangely enough, all of these features were already present in Leica's main pre-war competitor, the Zeiss Contax II of 1936 only 17 years before. Hmm. "
:angel:
Cheers,
Ruben
PS
Cosina Voightlander's Contax upgrade, the R2C offers even more features, as TTL metering. Unfortunately they too denied 2 highly desired features of the pre war Contax: the wide rangefinder baselenght and quiet shutter.
So we are left, by now with the new Zeiss Ikon, demmanding $2500 for a couple of bodies before lenses. "Hmm".
mike goldberg
01-27-2007, 21:08
So now, I understand you my friend. In my social work studies 'understand' sometimes meant 'standing under.' Before I bought my K4a, I did some Googling, and talked with Ruben. I also came across that 1936 date Re: the Zeiss/Contax plant. I think, when we last met, we talked about 1945, when the Russian trains from Dresden & Kiev, loaded with the Zeiss/Conatax tools & dies... and everything else they could carry, stretched for miles.
My K4a as an artifact, and I lucked out with the J8M 53/2 bought for $19-. The K4a is a 'kesher' or connection with my mother's parents, born in Kiev, whom I never knew. Except for a few small quirks, I really like the camera and intend to use it. I like the sound of the shutter at 1/50 & 1/25.
BTW: There were some small bits of specialized string in a plastic zip lock bag, that were inside the K2a. I'll return these next time we meet.
A question of logic is: Where/with what & in which direction do we build systems? With the K4a, I do not want to build yet another system. However, it will be fine for RF street shooting, since I don't have a 50 for the M2.
Speaking of GAS, I don't use my Nikon gear very much. Yet, I cannot think of much of anything I would sell! I noted that one guy in the forum who sold Nikon manual gear, got $35- for a 135/3.5... and $50- for a 35/2. Seems to me, that at those prices [despite the $ pinch], it pays to keep 'em.
In appreciation: Ruben, I've learned a lot with you. It began with the OM system, then last year you invited me to join RFF... with a warning: It's going to cost me money. :D I just got a Click-N-Ship notice from CQ with tracking number, that the CV 25/4 LTM+M Adapter+soft release have been shipped, so let's bless it on it's journey. This purchase means 'tightening my belt' some for a while; I do live on a retirement income. Yet, remembering that I started working by shoveling snow in Boston winters at age 12, there's a feeling of 'magiah li' here. In Yiddish, it's 'farginzah,' or "Enjoy it!"
And finally, wisdom from my father of blessed memory; in his day, the lawyers had to know Latin:
"Degustibus non es disputandem." That means, "B'ta'am u'vereah, ein l'kitvakeah... In English this is, "You cannot dispute taste." I guess that applies to all of us.
Ciao, mike
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