Dear M8 users - is it a rugged camera?

[sirius]

Leica is famous for building tank-like dependable cameras. Have M8 users felt that this tradition continues? Would you bring your M8 into high humidity, a snow storm, a dust filled desert country?

[Richard Marks]

Its too early to say Sirius. The build quality feels exceptional, but it is electronic and can not seriously compare with a mechanical camera at extremes of temperature. I think if i was heading for rough country id make sure my all risks insurance covered everything. Maybe we shold ask how repairable is it?

[Sailor Ted]

It seems as tough as my M6- I’ll let you know after I've sailed to the Line Islands on the Equator later this summer : )

T

[marbrink]

Seems to be very tough. Just wish the LCD had a little bit better protection..

[RML]

Since a film Leica M can withstand very heavy treatment, try throwing an M8 against the wall and see if it still works. Or hit someone over the head with it in a fight, as someone I met in Mongolia had to when he clashed with an irate ninja miner.

[jaapv]

My film Leica's always needed a service, straightening of the lensmount and general clean after a trip through dusty, bumpy,and camera-unfriendly Africa....

[pundit]

Mechanically, it is truly an M camera with the same build.

Electronically - we shall see.

[egpj]

I will be interested to see how it performs as well. Maybe we will see a ruggedized version before too much longer.

[Ben Z]

From the latest bunch of reports of M8s going belly up I think most people should be grateful if their M8 is working, period. Like Jaap I have never found Leicas to be particularly rugged. I still have my 2 original Pentaxes from 1966 that are working 100% and have never been serviced. My M4 has had to be overhauled 3 times and minor adjusted a couple more times since 1970 and never took anywhere near the beating the Pentaxes did.

[Sailor Ted]

Ben are these reports coming in for Mars? What reports of a "bunch" of M8's going "belly up?" By "bunch" do you mean a couple of reports? How do you define the word "bunch?"

I know R-D1's go Kaput daily however I do not think this is the case for what I see to be a far more rugged camera- remember I do own both.

[Ben Z]

Over at www.leica-camera-user.com there are reports of around a dozen M8s dying or developing faults that can't be corrected without the camera going back to Solms. One of them is Sean Reid's own M8, and it's the new updated one, not his older original one. So far Leica has only sold a couple thousand M8s and a dozen that we know of have gone belly-up, that's a rather alarming percentage. The RD-1 has a crappy rangefinder, a well-known fact, but one that has nothing at all to do (or to mitigate) issues regarding the M8. If I were you I would keep my fingers crossed about that perfect M8 of yours.

[Sailor Ted]

12=5? For an old guy you shure have some new math : )

[Gabriel M.A.]

Would you bring your M8 into high humidity, a snow storm, a dust filled desert country?
I don't know if I would bring myself into a place filled with any of those things. Any digital camera, rugged or not, will get affected where it matters most: the sensor. You have to take all precautions to protect it, specially when switching lenses, internal seals or no internal seals.

[RML]

Would you bring your M8 into high humidity, a snow storm, a dust filled desert country?

I don't know about the M8 as I don't have one. Yet, I brought my R-D1 and my Eos 300D to Mongolia on more than one occasion. Summer heat, winter cold, dust, rain and sleet, as long as you take care not to expose your camera too much to the elements (meaning visualise the shot, take out camera from bag, do the shot(s), put the camera back in bag) it'll go a long way before you really need to give it a solid scrub. I reckon the M8 is no different.

[Ben Z]

12=5? For an old guy you shure have some new math : )

Sean Reid, Steve F, Steve Ziffer (both of his M8s), Brent Nicastro, John Faier, Hans Roggen and Wade Heninger all report problems that will have to go back to Solms. That's eight DOA. Then there are four more whose M8s have recently locked up but were able to be revived by rebooting or some other method--at least so far. Not really new math, just the ability to count on more than the fingers of one hand :D

[Sailor Ted]

Hyperbole:
From the latest bunch of reports of M8s going belly up I think most people should be grateful if their M8 is working, period.

there are reports of around a dozen M8s dying or developing faults that can't be corrected without the camera going back to Solms

Ben 8 is not 12 (inflated 33%) and all computers, even new Apples, need a reboot once in a while. Hardly epidemic or in the case of a re-boot, not worth mentioning.

Assuming there are 2000 M8's in circulation and assuming the number 8 can be multiplied by 3 or 24 units that’s a percentage of .012. You've got better odds of striking it rich in Vegas then you do of going "belly up" in Solms. Of course this could change next week or next month but at this stage it’s far too soon to call.

[Ben Z]

Ben 8 is not 12 (inflated 33%) and all computers, even new Apples, need a reboot once in a while. Hardly epidemic or in the case of a re-boot, not worth mentioning.

Assuming there are 2000 M8's in circulation and assuming the number 8 can be multiplied by 3 or 24 units that’s a percentage of .012.

8 have already died and must go back. 4 more have exibited repetitive faults that the owners so far have been able to correct by rebooting, but they are faults nonetheless and the rebooting has only cured them temporarily until the next time. To me that makes 12 that are or should be sent back for service.

More importantly this latest spate of glitches is affecting the latest cameras Leica is currently shipping. So it's not valid to take the 1500 first-round ones into account.

BTW there are about 30 M8 owners active on the LUF so even granting you 8 vs 12, that's 8/30 or approximately 1 in 4. I'll be glad to take those odds in Vegas :D

[Sailor Ted]

have been able to correct by rebooting, but they are faults nonetheless and the rebooting has only cured them temporarily

Sounds like my Wintell machine :p

However if it is a factor of 1 in 4 as you assert then it will become painfully obvious in a few weeks- again so far it's just too early to call.

[SDK]

Don't even well designed electronics have "bathtub" failure rates? That is, most failures occur in the first few days of use, and machines that don't fail are likely to work fine for many years before failure rates start to climb? Just because the M8 is a costly Leica why would you expect them all to be immune from typical engineering fault rates?

The main reason I see not to buy an M8, if you want a digital M, is because some time Leica will make a much better model, with a full frame sensor and higher resolution and sensitivity.

[Trius]

I don't know if I would bring myself into a place filled with any of those things. Any digital camera, rugged or not, will get affected where it matters most: the sensor. You have to take all precautions to protect it, specially when switching lenses, internal seals or no internal seals.
The dust-shaker sensor on the E system bodies (and someone else has it now, too, just can't remember who) and the weather sealing on the E-1 really appeal to me. The lack of weather-proofing on the E-xxx bodies have kept me from getting one, even though I like the features and form factor of the E-330.

I'm somewhat surprised that at $4800, the M8 doesn't have both of those technologies, let alone not even one of them.

[Sailor Ted]

Trius,
I too am surprised at the lack of weather proofing- not so much the sensor-shaking thing.

My M8 roll out projection:
1st. Improved IR filter on the digital senor on par with that of the R-D1
2nd. A weather sealed version or an M8 MkII that replaces the M8 with weather proofing and possibly improved coatings on the RF for flare suppression.
3rd. An M9 probably in two years time from first roll out with an improved sensor though not necessarily a 1:1 crop factor.

Carnac the Magnificent has spoken : )

[Harry Lime]

Mechanically it appears to be very sturdy.

The electronics...well, if there are any bugs they will be weeded out over time. But I am betting that they will be reliable in the long run.

But one thing the M8 is lacking, is true weather sealing. You can't just shoot with it in the the pouring down rain, like you can with highend Canon or Nikon cameras. The Leica rep told me it will stand up to high humidity (they are aware of the importance of the Asian market), but direct exposure to the rain is a no, no.

I'm still puzzled why Leica didn't seal the camera.

[Sailor Ted]

Harry and crew,
They should have sealed the body. The lenses and lens mount appear to be sealed well enough as is from prior evidence gained from my film M mount Leica. Perhaps Leica was thinking (wrongly) that since it would be a major undertaking and possible compatibility issue for previous lenses if they re-engineered the M Mount and future lenses to be weatherr sealed; so instead of doing it half way they decided to forego the entire exercise by not weather sealing only the body? Not sure but this seems possible, either that or it was just too expensive. Regardless it was a bad call and I'll bet Leica corrects this with a later weather sealed model.

Ted

[Bob Ross]

The dust-shaker sensor on the E system bodies (and someone else has it now, too, just can't remember who) and the weather sealing on the E-1 really appeal to me. The lack of weather-proofing on the E-xxx bodies have kept me from getting one, even though I like the features and form factor of the E-330.

I'm somewhat surprised that at $4800, the M8 doesn't have both of those technologies, let alone not even one of them.
The SSF dust shaker is also found on the Pany and Leica 4/3rds bodies. It would have added considerable depth to the M8 body and I think that Leica was all fired determined to duplicate the size of previous Ms, that they boxed themselves in. Of course, if they had produced a "modern" digital RF, that deviated frome the classic Ms.....well, I don't want to go there:eek:
Bob

[spersky]

"My M8 roll out projection:
1st. Improved IR filter on the digital senor on par with that of the R-D1
2nd. A weather sealed version or an M8 MkII that replaces the M8 with weather proofing and possibly improved coatings on the RF for flare suppression.
3rd. An M9 probably in two years time from first roll out with an improved sensor though not necessarily a 1:1 crop factor."

Ted those are very reasonable requests; furthermore, if Leica had even done some of that my Leica M8 (which I cancelled) would likely be in Germany right now getting repaired like the rest of the unfortunate people who bought the Leica M8.

Weather sealing is essential in a 5k camera in my opinion, and the IR filter issue is a joke to expect someone to put a filter on a $3,000 lens just to get proper colors.


All of those issues aside, I think Leica will have learned a very valuable lesson releasing a camera they apparently did not beta test at all. I really doubt that those errors will be repeated again.

[HAnkg]

"My M8 roll out projection:
1st. Improved IR filter on the digital senor on par with that of the R-D1
2nd. A weather sealed version or an M8 MkII that replaces the M8 with weather proofing and possibly improved coatings on the RF for flare suppression.
3rd. An M9 probably in two years time from first roll out with an improved sensor though not necessarily a 1:1 crop factor."
1. the R-D1 is a smaller chip, problems grow exponentially with a larger chip with the lens so close to the sensor. Cyan shift is pretty nasty as it is.

2. That should be doable, just a question of impact on cost.

3. In 2 or 3 years maybe they will be able to eliminate the filters with a new chip package on the next gen camera. I don't think you will see a fix with the M8.

More likely to see a full frame R (if they continue R development) then M again because traditional RF lens/sensor is not a digital friendly set up.

I doubt you will see any evolutionary change in the next year or 2. Leica will live or die based on the present M8. Actually they did better then I expected, an M compatible, M quality digital RF was a very difficult challenge for a company with Leica's resources. I think they will do fine, but time will tell.

[Sailor Ted]

Spersky and fellow RFf members,
I understand your position and frustration- truth be known of the issues the Leica has the lack of weather sealing on the body (not the M mount or lenses- they are fine IMO) means I must use my M6 and film more often. And while the need to use IR filters is somewhat of a pain it's not a deal breaker by any means. That said I too would prefer my M8 not need this special handling.

To me the curious point is this. That this camera is not perfect, nay that this camera seems to have issues unlike any other camera in its price range means that for some it's a failure. To people who frame the debate in this way no amount of antidotal evidence to the M8's considerable strengths hold sway however...

Talk to actual M8 users and most (certainly not all) will tell you given the choice of having an M8 today or having to wait until the IR issue, weather sealing, lack of manual shutter cocking (glad of it at this point), firmware, etc. they gladly accept the camera as is- I certainly do and I’m certain that Sean Reid, Jaapv, and on, and on, and on are glad of having this camera as well. That this should be such a point of contention among non-M8 users to the point that it’s uncomfortable for those of us who have and like (or love) this camera is a shame. Read any thread regarding how to best use this camera, settings, sharing of pictures or photographic technique and you cannot find a topic that does not have people heckling the camera and by extension its users (perhaps I am wrong here but you get the idea). When world-class images are produced with this camera by photographers who could also use a P&S camera to create iconic images (though not with the M8's detail, clarity, or dynamic range of color or greyscale tone) these images are discounted as being not a result of the M8 due to the fact the photog has skill- this seems hardly the point to me. The point is this camera can and is being used to create iconic images, fine art, etc. As I have stated in previous posts, some people are looking for a camera that will take a poor photographer and miraculously deliver world-class images. To these misguided souls I say you have a long wait whether or not you're consciously aware of what you’re actually looking for. In fact look to the likes of Canon as they are working to make such a camera, Leica is not. I'm sorry but that's my feeling. It's not meant with malice nor am I being sarcastic.

To my fellow M8 photogs I say let's study great works from those of us who have the vision to make iconic images with our M8 cameras and explore how we can elevate DRF photography around the medium of digital; and not merely rehash what has been already done with film.