RangeFinderForum Under New Ownership

[MP Guy]

January 18, 2007

I have found a great resource that can help RFF grow and keep it running the way it is. Stephen Gandy from CameraQuest.com has assumed ownership of RFF and promises to keep things on track. This is great news. I can now relax a little. But wait, I am not going away! I will still have the same roles and responsibilities as before! When I started RFF, I had no idea it would grow this fast or this quickly!

Stephen's knowledge of rangefinder photography combined with his business experience and industry contacts will help RFF grow and become even more popular. Don’t worry about big changes that change the flavor of RFF, that won’t happen. RFF will only get better!

I would like to thank everyone for supporting RFF and helping build it into the premiere site for rangefinder cameras and film based photography. Your support has made this possible. The RFF community is a great group of people. Stephen will need your continued help and support just as I do.

Again,

Thank you.

Jorge Torralba
http://www.RangeFinderForum.com

[Nachkebia]

Oh no! :( .............

[dcsang]

This sort of makes sense :)

Does this mean that Messr Gandy will be the overseer and Jorge will remain and "head honcho" with Joe, Ralph, et al being the field generals?

Or does this mean that everyone gets free shipping from CameraQuest if they're an RFF member? :D

I think you've done a great job so far Jorge and it HAS grown leaps and bounds, even since I joined, and, as I have always said, it's a great resource and one of the few sites left online where people are generally cordial, respectful and helpful. There's very little bickering that goes on and quite a lot of camaraderie - that says a lot for the site, the previous (and hopefully new) owners and moderators (not to mention the membership) :D

Cheers on a job well done,
Dave

[ray_g]

Congratulations, Jorge

[Socke]

So this is realy not a hack from somebody we know too well?

[dazedgonebye]

Wow...a bit of news and it looked like the site went down for the last 30 minutes or so.

Well, here's hoping that change is good.

[Robin Harrison]

As a sposoring member, I feel like a sharholder in RFF. With this takeover on the table, may I assume we will be bought out of our stake? Or at least expect massive dividends?

:)

[tomgull]

Hm... This wasn't really what I hoped for.

[johne]

Jorge,
Fare thee well!
Johne

[Flyfisher Tom]

Stephen is a very good vendor and congrats to you both.

Looking forward to keeping the same friendly, helpful atmosphere as before.

[Sailor Ted]

We shall see...

[MP Guy]

Hey, I'm still here guys. I just don't pay the bills or do the worrying anymore :) I have no plans on going away and hope to bring another great site to life in the future.

[like2fiddle]

Congratulations Jorge! Glad to know you'll still be around.

[pesphoto]

congrats Jorge, hope it worked out well for you.
Glad you'll still be around!

[kaiyen]

Well, I must admit that the site going down right when the news came out made me quite nervous - I read the title of the thread, but got nothing else. But now I know, and am happy. I'm glad to see that RFF has grown so much, and kudos to Stephen for taking it on.

allan

[leica M2 fan]

RFF has gotten better and better with time under Jorge's leadership and the supervision by the moderators. I fully expect that under Stephen's guidance it will remain the same.:) 2007 will bring much good.

[back alley]

anyone seen frank s?

;)

[back alley]

we were good before and we're gonna be good now.

stephen will be a good 'boss' and i have no fear that any changes will only be for the better.

a pair of new eyes and someone accomplished in business and who already has one of the most looked at sites when it comes to things rf, can only add to our own presence.

i look forward to the coming days and welcome stephen.

joe

[FrankS]

I'm here, I just got on after trying for a while at 12. Welcome Stephen G and congrats on your involvement.

The combination of RFF and the CameraQuest site will make an awesome RF resource.

[mike_j]

Well I can't think of anyone better to hand it over to. I hear nothing but good about Stephen Gandy and his commitment to rangefinders.

[RayPA]

Wow...OK...Well...does this mean all the advertising except for CameraQuest will go away? :)

Seriously, thanks Jorge for putting this all together. Good luck, Stephen!

.

[telenous]

Congratulations to both parties involved in the transfer. Stephen Gandy comes across as a genuinely nice person and he has the rangefinder flame in his heart. I hope and expect any changes will be for the best.

[f/stopblues]

Great news Jorge. He's a good man to be running the show.

[MikeL]

I look forward to seing "Nikon" in the Forums list on the left!

[BJ Bignell]

Thank you, Jorge, for finding a way to keep the site alive. I think there would have been some sad folks if you had been forced to close us down! And thanks to Stephen for taking the lead.

I guess what remains now is to hear from Stephen himself. I'm sure he'll chime in soon to let us know what his plans are for the site. Will there be changes to the look? Changes to the advertising? Changes to subscriptions/membership/galleries?

We look forward to hearing from you, Stephen!

[MP Guy]

Stephen will chime in soon. But I just found out today the he has dial up. So, give home a month or two :D

[Socke]

Fine with me, somebody very dedicated to rangefinders running RFF is probably the best what could happen to a site which has outgrown the hobby propoertions as far as this one.

So a big welcome to our biggest sponsor :)

[IGMeanwell]

This is quite the news

The site was down for a little bit ... I figured that was the news ;)

Does this mean you'll be building your M8 gallery even more Jorge?

[Gabriel M.A.]

Hoping for the future to be as bright as envisioned.

I believe I can understand your decision. Trying to rule the world, no matter which one it is, comes with its set of headaches. Good luck on you both on the new endeavour!

(wow, that only took 34 minutes to post!)

[VinceC]

>>I look forward to seing "Nikon" in the Forums list on the left!<<

Nikon will rise again!

This announcement strikes me as a positive thing. Stephen Gandy has done as much as anyone -- probably more -- to provide free, intelligent information for the world of rangefinder camera users.

[dazedgonebye]

Stephen will chime in soon. But I just found out today the he has dial up. So, give home a month or two :D

Um..he may want to get broadband access. I'm just saying...:eek:

[ferider]

Congrats to you both, Jorge and Stephen !

Roland.

[Rogrund]

Welcome Stephen and good luck!

[kalokeri]

I assume that Jorge did carefully consider what is best for him and rff. I welcome Stephen and hope everything stays the same and becomes even better.

Thomas

[kbg32]

Congratualtions to you and Stephen!

[rover]

OK, back from lunch.... what did I miss?

[fishtek]

Congratulations to both of you. This is a valuable resource for all of us, and we're truly appreciative of the efforts you've made.

Best Regards to you both!

Don Madson

[robin a]

Damn,I wanted a calander!

[FrankS]

Hopefully Stephen won't be trying out new colour combos for the interface like Jorge did!

[rbiemer]

Jorge,
Thank you very much for what you have made here and I think there couldn't be another/better person to have taken over the site!
And something else occurs to me now; does this mean we here at RFF have something of an inside line to Mr K.? I really like the concept of the R4 and have some thoughts about the R5...;)
Looking forward to seeing more photos from you now, Jorge!
Rob

[ywenz]

no offense but i hope rff won't look like cameraquest. content-wise, cameraquest is beautiful!

[Gordon Coale]

I'm disappointed. I thought we were all going to get an M8!

It was Stephen's website that got me back into rangefinder photography. It's a natural that he would be more involved with RFF.

Welcome, Stephen!

[retrocam]

I was worried for a while because the site was unavailable.

Congrats to Jorge and Stephen! May the RFF community just grow bigger and stronger...:) Oh...and kudos to the mods too!

[traveller]

The combination of RFF and the CameraQuest site will make an awesome RF resource.

My opinion too and remember that the people and the moderators are the heart of this community. As long as the site offers the resources and members keep their friendly attitude this site will be successful.

@Jorge: Good job

[JeffGreene]

Congratulations to both Stephan and Jorge! I have benefited from the vendors provided here over the last two years, I hope there will be no change in advertising policy. Let's hope 2007 works well for all of us!:rolleyes:

[reagan]

The combination of RFF and the CameraQuest site will make an awesome RF resource.I believe so as well. I visited CameraQuest off and on for a couple of years before finding RFF and go there even more now. Congrats and thanks to both .. Jorge & Stephen! http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Gabriel M.A.]

OK, back from lunch.... what did I miss?

Canon is not (repeat: not) launching a digital rangefinder. ;)

[ruben]

We all have seen Jorge through different situations and feel his spirit in the way RFF is designed and managed. I firmly believe he has done the best for RFF, with more than a good chance he is right again.

On the other hand Mr Ghandi, or should we start calling him Stephen, his web site and shop speaks by itself about his great enthusiasm about the rangefinder world.

Therefore this seems to be a marriage of love, which I would do my best to help. Let's look towards the long range, and not at any temporary minor troubles, many young couples may pass through.

Good Luck Jorge, Good Luck Stephen, Good Luck RFF !

[shutterflower]

oh yay, I was right! Sold!

Interesting to have a camera retailer own the RFF!

Cameraquest is a great site, and shows the Stephen has a true love of rangefinder cameras. If anything, this will boost RFF.

[kevin m]

I have to disagree with the sentiments expressed so far because on paper, this is a BAD idea.

No offense to Stephen, he's obviously an enthusiast and a decent guy, but he is also a retailer, and I fear we're about to lose our little oasis of objectivity. A forum is first and foremost a place for the free exchange of ideas, and it's bad enough that any one person should 'own' it, nevermind a person whose objectivity is clouded by being the leading importer for one particular brand of camera. Where, for example, will someone turn now for advice about a Cameraquest deal gone bad?

His site, as valuable a resource as it is, also reads at times like a gushing fanzine for all things Cosina/Voigtlander, and I don't want to see that editorial stamp used here.

[jaapv]

Now that is not bad news at all. :) Stephen seems to me to be the best Big Cheese this forum can have, and make Jorge's good work enduring. And we Dutch know all there is to know about cheese ;) Congratulations Stephen and Jorge.

[dreilly]

I have to express disappointment. I had decided in my head that the big news was that from today on, all orders of RFF hats would come with a free R-D1 refurb unit attached to it.

(Do I really need a smiley there?)

Well, Astromart is owned by a big retailer, but it still has advertising from other retailers and it's still one of the two best astronomy forums online, so I'm not worried about that.

[ywenz]

Kevin m: How much input do you think a forum owner can have on the forum's content? Unless the owner is content with turning away all members except the few who are in line with his views, no owner dare apply the degree of editorial stamp as you have put it.

[Gabriel M.A.]

I'm with you re: your concerns, Kevin.

I just wish everyone the best. We can only see if it flies after take-off. We lend support. It's a two-way street. Vox populi.

But so far, godspeed, Jorge and Stephen!

[rogue_designer]

Kevin - while I can understand you concerns, I am inclined to give Mssr. Gandy the benefit of the doubt. I do not see this forum becoming a mouthpiece with any editorial oversight on the part of the owner, barring those which mainting the terms of use we already agree to.

And should that become the case - the site won't last long anyway. It is not in anyones best interest to force an editorial view.

Jorge and Stephen don't strike me as people who would make such a decision without considering that danger, and finding a way to prevent it.

I hope anyway. :D

[Todd.Hanz]

here's to good times ahead...hopefully.

Todd

[JeffGreene]

I have to disagree with the sentiments expressed so far because on paper, this is a BAD idea. .....His site, as valuable a resource as it is, also reads at times like a gushing fanzine for all things Cosina/Voigtlander, and I don't want to see that editorial stamp used here.

You made explicit some of my concerns, but I would think that Jorge's continuing presence is testimony to the separation between the two, but then again I am an optimist! :D

The greatest mistake that could be made here would be for RFF to become the mouthpiece for Voightlander/Cosina USA!

[back alley]

I have to disagree with the sentiments expressed so far because on paper, this is a BAD idea.

No offense to Stephen, he's obviously an enthusiast and a decent guy, but he is also a retailer, and I fear we're about to lose our little oasis of objectivity. A forum is first and foremost a place for the free exchange of ideas, and it's bad enough that any one person should 'own' it, nevermind a person whose objectivity is clouded by being the leading importer for one particular brand of camera. Where, for example, will someone turn now for advice about a Cameraquest deal gone bad?

His site, as valuable a resource as it is, also reads at times like a gushing fanzine for all things Cosina/Voigtlander, and I don't want to see that editorial stamp used here.


i think there may be a few others who are also concerned.

i can only say 'time will tell'.

to me, it makes little sense to want to reinvent something that already works well, and that applies to the cq site, cvug and rff.
i think stephen is too smart to apply a heavy hand here and there is no history of behaviour to suggest that.

we shall see...

joe

[dcsang]

KevinM,

I understand those sentiments; but I also look at this site as being an extremely busy hub of information and photos and "chit chat".

Someone, somewhere, has to pay for the upkeep.
Bandwidth is not free; neither is hosting and neither are the servers/routers/etc. that carry our little messages to and fro.

It all costs someone, somewhere quite a bit of coin. Jorge has never instilled a "mandatory" membership fee and that's a good thing. A lot of us gave of our own accord - but we gave that once - have any of us given funds to help run the site on a regular basis? I know I haven't. I gave $25 one time a year and a half ago. I doubt that my $25 is still making this site run today.

Jorge is a single individual and I'm sure not made of money - Stephen as well is a single individual but knows how to run a business (otherwise Cameraquest wouldn't be as successful as it is currently) - this marriage may not be one that everyone has wished for but it does make sense.

I don't think Stephen is the type of person to banish anyone who speaks out against Cosina / Voigtlander anymore than Jorge would throw anyone out for speaking ill of the M8 or such. Stephen has yet to log in and say is piece but I really think that, based on what I've had to deal with him for, and how it was handled, and the fact that he is not here 24/7, this site is not going to lose it's ability to allow for differing opinions or viewpoints on camera brands.

Dave

[JeffGreene]

I guess at this point we all eagerly await Stephen's initial policy announcement! :angel:

[kevin m]

I hope I'm not coming across as being unduly pessimistic, but it's the conflict of interest I'm calling into question and not the character of the parties involved.

Perhaps I'm a bit sensitive to this because I recently left a site where I had participated for many years because a tyrannical site owner thought he 'owned' the content that had been provided for him - gratis - by his paid site members, and that the content was his to sell to advertisers.

And it must be pointed out that Cameraquest has at times posted erroneous opinions as fact, with no recourse to editing to correct the mistake. (I'm thinking of the Hexar RF debacle.)

I hope it works out, too. But I'd rather have something to rely on than hope.

[Socke]

There might be one small problem, does Mango win and I can't call my Contax Gs rangefinders anymore?

[ruben]

BTW, there is another figure that I hope this marriage will help as much as possible and it is that innovative manufacturer, Mr Kobayashi. If he gets strenthened through Stephen's move, this also may help all of us.

Hummm, I am starting to smell a silent Bessa in the horizont and a big hole in my pocket.

[raid]

Jorge: Thanks for what you have done for RFF all these years. I am still waiting to hear back from you regarding my pm.

Raid

[flashover]

Jorge does the change of ownership also include DSLReXchange?

[kshapero]

I love RFF and I have nothing but praise for S. Gandy. He has helped me out and been a real resource to us. But I hope RFF will still be able to attract sponsors from the "outside". That would be great.
Steven, please get Broadband.
Ciao

[mike goldberg]

For sure many of us knew this was coming, and I anticipated the need for broadening the infrastructure of RFF. How much really, could Jorge, supported by a few Moderators handle?

Personally, I feel an enormous amount of Gratitude. My buddy Ruben here in Jerusalem invited me to join RFF in May 2006. From October, when DSLRx opened to SLR's, I became active there as well. Both Forums have helped to open me to the new, to enhance my seeing & vison, and I have made a few Online friends. Semi-retired and over age 60... who could ask for more?

Jorge has promised us in the announcement, that his guiding hand will still be with us. If Stephen Gandy has as much integrity & quality as the fine cameras he sells, then all will be well.

May 2007 be a Blessed year for RFF, it's Members, Owner, Administrator & Moderators.

B'hatzlacha! That means Success!... in Hebrew.
mike

[KoNickon]

Well, I guess I don't know really what it means to "own" a forum. There's been no better friend of rangefinder cameras (and their owners) than Stephen these past few years, that's for sure. But I do trust that his pecuniary interest in Cosina/Voigtlander doesn't influence the content of this forum, or prevent the current other sponsors from continuing.

But let's wait and hear from him. (In the corporate world, Jorge's announcement would have been accompanied by extensive questions and answers, that would have been thoroughly reviewed by internal committees. outside counsel and public relations consultants!)

Thanks for all you've done, Jorge. May RFF continue in the same way!

[Marc-A.]

I like Gandy's site for a long time: I knew it before RFF and it led me to RF camera, and then to RFF. Those who think Gandy's site is only praising Cosina gear, clearly don't know it. There are resources for Leica (very rich information on Leica), Nikon, Contax and Canon RF cameras. Stephen sells Voigtlander gear, but he appreciates all good cameras.
So for me, the deal between Jorge and Stephen is only good news. But it's not the big announcement I was expecting :o ... maybe will follow another announcement like the launching of a big, exciting photo contest :) . We all expect it for a while (not for the prize, though it's not negligible, but for all the excitement and the challenge.
Thanks Jorge for what you did, and good luck Stephen!:)
Marc-A.

[ruben]

.....The greatest mistake that could be made here would be for RFF to become the mouthpiece for Voightlander/Cosina USA!

This is an interesting commentary, because in my opinion one of the most qualified features of Stephen's site is that his site itself is not a mouthpiece for Voightlander/Cosina. Certainly this may be the first source of income and Stephen is a commercial representative of Cosina, but the remarkable thing about Mr Ghandi is the way by which he maintains himself at his site as a representative of the rangefinder world first of all.

This is what keeps me highly optimistic, and respectfull of Stephen, from whom I never have bought a single item, but had a couple of email exchanges.

Now, regarding Cosina/Voightlander Japan, Mr Kobayashi in his own peculiar way, according to his high skills, at the end of the day is one of us. No folks, these are not stupid guys looking for propaganda, but high calibre enthusiasts of our same love.

[c.poulton]

Well I can't think of anyone better to hand it over to. I hear nothing but good about Stephen Gandy and his commitment to rangefinders.

Hear hear!!! :)

[MinorTones]

Congrats Stephen and Jorge. I'm looking forward to good things.

[back alley]

Jorge does the change of ownership also include DSLReXchange?


yes.

joe

[Rafael]

Congratulations to both Stephen and Jorge. To Jorge, thank you for all that you have done to build RFF into what it is.

[David Murphy]

I met Steve Gandy at a camera fair not long ago -- a nice guy and of course a highly regarded classic camera expert.

The main thing that does worries me (and I've seen this happen before on Hobby sites when sponsors buy them out from the creators) is that there can be a direct conflict of interest between others selling items, for instance on the classified ads. This is only natural of course. I do hope Steve takes the "big tent" approach and realizes that an open and liquid market for buying and selling only helps and enlarges the classic camera/rangefinder hobby as a whole.

[Diomedes]

Long live the king ! :)

[Ballen Photo]

WOW!!! I've been away for a while, and come back to find this joint is under new ownwership?
OK, Now that the initial shock has come and gone, and I've had time for this to sink in, I think this is probably a very positive move on both Jorge, and Stephen's parts. Jorge can now breathe a bit easier, and knowing what Stephen has done with Camera Quest, I'm sure He has RFF's best interest at heart.
CONGRATS Guys!!!
-Bruce

[FrankS]

If money changed hands, how much do you think RFF is worth? (I'm certainly not expecting an answer from Jorge or Stephen, as that would be gauche to ask them.) Just wondering because it's such an ethereal thing.

[lZr]

Congrats to you both, Jorge and Stephen !
Yes, I want Mr. K. also in.

[popstar]

Well, well.... Not exactly what I was expecting either. I thought there might be a sale, but not to Gandy. Congratulations to you both. I'm glad to hear you'll still be around Jorge. I'm sure Mr. Gandy will do right by RFF and keep the general flavor the same. One only has to look at the last six months of photo.net to see how *not* to make a grand entrance.

Good luck to all involved!

[Nachkebia]

I once bought a lens from Stephen, I have to say it was not one of the best shoping experiance`s, I hope RFF will stay as smart and friendly place as it was before!
Though check this out! Wide Angle Voigtlander R4M / R4A with 21/25/28/35/50 framelines! Free Shipping World Wide with your RFF ID! :D :D maybe he should start distributing Leica after all :D

[nico]

Thanks Jorge.
Ciao
Nico

[Nachkebia]

Great thing about Jorge was that he was comunicating, asking and answering, hope stays this way :)

[PetarDima]

Jorge, about a year ago, I find out that there is one place on NET - for old timers,
personal thoughts, thoughts about old cameras, B&W photo poetry ...:rolleyes:
I hope that this site will stay same as I found it ...
Best regards !

[mikeh]

I'm OK with it I guess. I'm not a Voigtlander guy, but I'm wondering how many members would feel a little hesitant about dissing a Bessa.....certainly not as freely as they would the M8!
But Stephen is not an apologist for Voigtlander, he really is an RF promoter, so we couldn't hope for better.
And besides, should the forum change too much, non-comp agreements don't last forever!

[kevin m]

...but I'm wondering how many members would feel a little hesitant about dissing a Bessa....

Not me. Life's too short.

If Mr. Gandy has Mr. Kobayashi's ear he should tell him to quit fixing the Bessa bodies on the installment plan and finally put a real competitor to the Leica M on the market. Nearly $600 for an RF body build on a cheap SLR chassis with a dinky rangefinder is a bit outrageous, but $1,500 for one built on the F6 chassis with the Zeiss Ikon RF would be a bargain.

Worth a shot, eh? :D

[HuubL]

I love Steven's site and I love RFF. This will be synergism: together better than the sum of the two separate.

[jmilkins]

Welll well well.

All good. My route to RFs was through CVUG, finding RFF and buying a Bessa from CameraQuest.

Congrats Stephen and Jorge. And thanks to the great mods who have maintained the flavour of the site - I hope you will still have the same roles and approach.

Will there be an influx of former CVUG members I wonder - though I would think most everyone on that list would be here already.

Interesting times. Hope the place stays pretty much the same as it moves from a village to a town...

[Todd.Hanz]

If money changed hands, how much do you think RFF is worth? (I'm certainly not expecting an answer from Jorge or Stephen, as that would be gauche to ask them.) Just wondering because it's such an ethereal thing.

How much is it worth?
Not much without us, I say we start a union and go on strike for better benefits :D

Todd

[Nachkebia]

Not much without us, I say we start a union and go on strike for better benefits :D

Todd

Like Bessa R4A with 50% discount?

[popstar]

Wonder if there will be more contests with Voigtlander products as prizes?! One can only hope!

[robert blu]

Jorge: Thanks for what you have done for RFF .
Stephen: welcome !
robert

[CameraQuest]

I would like to thank everyone for the support. This really is a special online community, and I am very committed to only making RFF better.

IF anyone cares, my first RFF move was having George add the Argus forum. The importance of those cameras combined with their relatively low cost and lack of recognition has always facinated me.

Stephen

[shutterflower]

I have to disagree with the sentiments expressed so far because on paper, this is a BAD idea.

No offense to Stephen, he's obviously an enthusiast and a decent guy, but he is also a retailer, and I fear we're about to lose our little oasis of objectivity. A forum is first and foremost a place for the free exchange of ideas, and it's bad enough that any one person should 'own' it, nevermind a person whose objectivity is clouded by being the leading importer for one particular brand of camera. Where, for example, will someone turn now for advice about a Cameraquest deal gone bad?

His site, as valuable a resource as it is, also reads at times like a gushing fanzine for all things Cosina/Voigtlander, and I don't want to see that editorial stamp used here.

A fearless commentary, for sure. I have to say that this speaks aloud some of my own first reactions to this change. Having a retailer own RFF, as I said, will be "interesting". This only makes it more important that we hold together as a community.

I also believe that Stephen understands that he'll have to feed us to keep us alive.

We aren't led by any leader, we are RFF. The owner merely owns the space, we define its nature, and in the end, its success or failure is up to us. Having a passionate camera lover at the head, and a store such as Cameraquest at the back end will only offer value. We have to decide how to use it.

[memphis]

cool -- Stephen is a great guy and source of knowledge... If you need any help, let me know...

[memphis]

cool -- Stephen is a great guy and source of knowledge... If you need any help, let me know...
congrats to everyone

[kevin m]

The owner merely owns the space, we define its nature, and in the end, its success or failure is up to us.

Well, let's hope what you say proves true.

Coming here fresh from the carnage at the photo.net Leica forum, I'm not inclined to be quite so optimistic. :)

[dcsang]

Well, let's hope what you say proves true.

Coming here fresh from the carnage at the photo.net Leica forum, I'm not inclined to be quite so optimistic. :)

The LUG is equally bad.

The only other group that allowed for "cross pollination" of ideas was the PDML; and that isn't a forum but an extremely busy mailing list.

I don't doubt that people will still be able to speak their minds here - as many have already said, if anyone (be it Jorge or, now Stephen) were to clamp down on "dissing" any camera brand; be it Leica or CV or Nikon or Canon or etc. etc. etc. those that felt betrayed would be long gone and the forum, in and of itself, would die.

None of us want that.
None of the sponsors want that.
And now that Stephen's the owner, I'm sure he won't want that either.

He's already stated that changes will be evolutionary and not revolutionary. Let's not put cart before horse or judge a man guilty without a trial ok? :)

Dave

[DougK]

Congrats Stephen and Jorge!

[Solinar]

I would like to thank everyone for the support. This really is a special online community, and I am very committed to only making RFF better.

IF anyone cares, my first RFF move was having George add the Argus forum. The importance of those cameras combined with their relatively low cost and lack of recognition has always facinated me.

Stephen

Awesome news. I like the Argus move, too. It shows that he has an eclectic side as well.

Steve has done more than most to give range finder photography a boost.

[goo0h]

kevin m: Well, I've been on here and on the cameraquest mailing lists for a while now, and I'm not worried. Stephen has never been heavy handed on his very own lists, and believe me the topics can wander at times. ;)

In terms of other sponsors and deals, Stephen strikes me as being very pragmatic. If he chases away all the other sponsors, the already highly selective rangefinder niche market may very well become even more exclusive, perhaps even to the point of oblivion. Nobody benefits from that. And I'm sure he also realizes that if everybody moved away, somebody will probably eventually put up another site. Despite it being a niche market, obviously there's a need for a site like this.

So I'm not worried.

[mjflory]

I'll second the comments about Stephen's hands-off approach to his mailing lists, especially the busiest, the CVUG. Let's hope the discussion of the yucca in Baba's back yard is preserved somewhere for posterity! If we needed any more evidence of a laisser-faire approach...

I've never had the opportunity to meet him in person, but I have the impression that Stephen Gandy is first a tremendous and very energetic rangefinder enthusiast, and second a retailer -- a resourceful fellow who's found a way to turn his love into a way to make a living. The Christmas Bessa gift is just one testament to his generosity; other hints have doubtless been caught by those who follow the CVUG regularly. I am hopeful that this will be a good New Year for Jorge, Stephen, and the whole RFF!

-- Michael

[swoop]

I'm hoping this will be a good thing. Though the idea of a business owning a user forum doesn't sound wise to me. Gandy appears to be an honest fellow and will allow the forum to be left as it is.

[Keith]

I have dealt with Stephen on several occasions and have always found him to be courteous and fair with an obvious enthusiasm for his vocation. The thought of a retailer owning this forum doesn't enthuse me but if that's the way it has to be ... I'm glad it's going to be Stephen Gandy.

As our new leader I only ask one thing ..... "Please don't send me to Iraq." :o

[ndnbrunei]

Thank you Jorge for your hard work - setting up and maintaining a site like this could have been no small effort.

Congratulations on your achievement - I have not found another site that has anything close to the degree of camaraderie that this site has. The sense of community is very refreshing and it is great to see that people's postings are valued.

I hope the integrity of the site is maintained.

Regards, Andrew (ndnbrunei).

[nikola]

Good elf Stephen is now the new capo.... best wishes! :D

...and I also hope that we will not lose George. :)

Nikola

[Simon Larbalestier]

I would like to thank everyone for the support. This really is a special online community, and I am very committed to only making RFF better.

IF anyone cares, my first RFF move was having George add the Argus forum. The importance of those cameras combined with their relatively low cost and lack of recognition has always facinated me.

Stephen

Having bought several things from Stephen and exchanged many emails on questions regarding RF cameras and possible purchases over the years, I am very happy that Stephen has taken RFF under his wing and i'd like to thank Jorge, Joe and Rover for all their hard work to bring this site to the size and importance as a resource site as it is now and it's special online community.

[Huck Finn]

I hope I'm not coming across as being unduly pessimistic, but it's the conflict of interest I'm calling into question and not the character of the parties involved.

Perhaps I'm a bit sensitive to this because I recently left a site where I had participated for many years because a tyrannical site owner thought he 'owned' the content that had been provided for him - gratis - by his paid site members, and that the content was his to sell to advertisers.

And it must be pointed out that Cameraquest has at times posted erroneous opinions as fact, with no recourse to editing to correct the mistake. (I'm thinking of the Hexar RF debacle.)

I hope it works out, too. But I'd rather have something to rely on than hope.

Kevin, you've hit the nail on the head. :eek:

This is not a good move in my opinion. It wasn't just the Hexar RF comments, but the dissing of the Rollei 35 RF & the strange saga of CQ's relationship with the Zeiss Ikon, any reference to which has now been expunged from the site.

The internet is the new news medium for the 21st century. Advertsers have always had too much say in what was reprted in the media (newspapers, magazines, radio, TV, etc.) The evolution of photo magazines into the vacuous conduits for advertisements that they have become attests to that. When advertisers become owners, you have a major conflict of interest.

Ownership by Cameraquest is a clear conflict of interest.

Many thanks to Jorge & everyone else who have made RFF such an enjoyable place to spend time & swap opinions.

Huck

[Huck Finn]

KevinM,

I understand those sentiments; but I also look at this site as being an extremely busy hub of information and photos and "chit chat".

Someone, somewhere, has to pay for the upkeep.
Bandwidth is not free; neither is hosting and neither are the servers/routers/etc. that carry our little messages to and fro.

It all costs someone, somewhere quite a bit of coin. Jorge has never instilled a "mandatory" membership fee and that's a good thing. A lot of us gave of our own accord - but we gave that once - have any of us given funds to help run the site on a regular basis? I know I haven't. I gave $25 one time a year and a half ago. I doubt that my $25 is still making this site run today.

Jorge is a single individual and I'm sure not made of money - Stephen as well is a single individual but knows how to run a business (otherwise Cameraquest wouldn't be as successful as it is currently) - this marriage may not be one that everyone has wished for but it does make sense.

I don't think Stephen is the type of person to banish anyone who speaks out against Cosina / Voigtlander anymore than Jorge would throw anyone out for speaking ill of the M8 or such. Stephen has yet to log in and say is piece but I really think that, based on what I've had to deal with him for, and how it was handled, and the fact that he is not here 24/7, this site is not going to lose it's ability to allow for differing opinions or viewpoints on camera brands.

Dave

All good points.

However, there is a reason that there are rules about ownership of newspapers & other media. In a democracy, the press is "the fourth estate." It needs a free hand to operate. It has nothing to do with how benevolent the ownership is nor how decent a person any particular owner is. Ownership is tranferable. When an arm of the media is owned by a dealer who is also a distributor for one particular manufacturer, that media outlet goes with the sale of the dealership &/or the distributorship - unless something has been made explicit in the contract. Even in the latter case, it remains an inherent conflict of interests for the same individual to own both entities.

The internet is sorting itself out, but the general trend in the media in America has been to move in an unhealthy direction in the past quarter century. So-called "news" on TV has deteriorated into fluff instead of serious journalism. It is now just one more advertising platform to attract viewers & fill up space between ads.

Huck

[Andy Aitken]

OK but if RFF has to be owned by a business then I can't think of a better owner than CameraQuest. Stephen Gandy strikes me as an enthusiast first and a businessman second. Gandy will be no tyrant - that's for sure.

Big thanks to Jorge and good luck to both.

[MP Guy]

I plan to be around for a while. In fact Stephen and I are working on a top secret web page :) that should rock the world :D But it's just a pebble now. In the meantime, I will still do what I did before. So, don't expect anything less from me than what I have done in the past. Going with Stephen for the forum was a no brainer since we both share a common interest. RF cameras.

[ferider]

In fact Stephen and I are working on a top secret web page :) that should rock the world :D.

Jorge,

the first thing I was thinking after your announcement was: "it would be great if Stephens RF web site would be integrated with RFF and grow as an RFF FAQ".

Roland.

[Pherdinand]

cool.
Let's wait to see how it will work out before we get involved in negative predictions.

Good luck, Stephen -if i may call you like that.

[Max Power]

Jorge,
Thanks for taking us this far you have made it a fantastic place.

Stephen,
Congratulations on taking over the RFF, and for being a great source of information and a first rate vendor.

Great success to both of you!

Kent

[kevin m]

Someone, somewhere, has to pay for the upkeep.

So we sell our souls to the devil for "upkeep?" :rolleyes:

Fine. Charge $100 a year - or whatever it takes - and be done with the silly notion of 'owning' the content of a forum. Stephen is by all accounts a decent guy but, as Huck pointed out, the whole point of ownership is the ability to transfer your assets, and even if Mr. Gandy proves to be exceptional in the role, there's no guarantee the next owner will be half as decent.

[arbib]

Congrats to all the RFF staff. I am a fairly new member, but I have and do enjoy all the site has to offer. Not just Rff lore, but in great threads I am learning from too. Especially the great photos that are posted.

So Jorge, and Staff, You all have a great site here. Glad you are expanding. (I hate the term "grow your company" Plants Grow, Business's expand ..

[Huck Finn]

Jorge,

the first thing I was thinking after your announcement was: "it would be great if Stephens RF web site would be integrated with RFF and grow as an RFF FAQ".

Roland.

You've got to be kidding. :eek:

[JohnM]

Eh. It's a message board, not the New York Times.

I'm just happy there's someone out there willing to invest the time, energy and money to provide me with this little way to pass some time. I don't care that he happens to sell cameras.

Thanks Stephen, Jorge, Joe, Rover and whoever else has pitched in here to date.

[Calvin]

Though I signed up this site not long, ppl around here are so great in exchanging ideas, thoughts, experiences and most importantly, your masterpieces. I also like this forum as members are coming from different corners of the world. Hope the new bartender would follow this spirit in running the site.

[Huck Finn]

Eh. It's a message board, not the New York Times.

Time to update your thinking. Message boards, blogs, websites, & all the rest of the interactive digital world are the "New York Times" for the new century.

I'm just happy there's someone out there willing to invest the time, energy and money to provide me with this little way to pass some time. I don't care that he happens to sell cameras.

Thanks Stephen, Jorge, Joe, Rover and whoever else has pitched in here to date.

Mr. Gandy will restore my faith in the new management when he restores information about the Zeiss Ikon to the historical portions of his CameraQuest website. Publishing a website that ostensibly offers objective historical information separate from its advertsing & sales sections, but then edits out all of that previously published ZI information over a dispute with the company, which is only vaguely explained, does not portend well for attitudes toward censorship as issues arise in the future.

[Al Patterson]

Mr. Gandy will restore my faith in the new management when he restores information about the Zeiss Ikon to the historical portions of his CameraQuest website. Publishing a website that ostensibly offers objective historical information separate from its advertsing & sales sections, but then edits out all of that previously published ZI information over a dispute with the company, which is only vaguely explained, does not portend well for attitudes toward censorship as issues arise in the future.

If I owned the de-facto best M mount research site and had a dispute with Zeiss, I would have pulled the Ikon stuff as well. As to "vaguely explained", it is NOT our business, or our website for that matter. Now, were Mr. Gandy to pull the Zeiss forum here, I'd be right with any ZI owner who complained.

And besides, who says he won't re-post all that info when the ZI becomes a part of M history rather than a current model?

[Huck Finn]

If I owned the de-facto best M mount research site and had a dispute with Zeiss, I would have pulled the Ikon stuff as well. As to "vaguely explained", it is NOT our business, or our website for that matter. Now, were Mr. Gandy to pull the Zeiss forum here, I'd be right with any ZI owner who complained.

And besides, who says he won't re-post all that info when the ZI becomes a part of M history rather than a current model?

I agree that it is not our business, so it would have been better for him to have said nothing about it.

He had every right to pull whatever he wanted to pull off his website, but removal of the ZI information detracts from the site as the best "de facto M-mount research site."

By "historical information," I'm referring to current as well as ancient history. The article on the Konica Hexar RF, for example, didn't appear when it became "part of M history." It was there when the Hexar RF was in production & an active competitor to the CV gear that was being sold by CameraQuest so there's no reason that the Zeiss Ikon should have been handled differently. To be consistent & to maintain the integrity of that part of the site, non-sales information like Tom Abrahamsson's article should have been left there. That's just my opinion; I am in no way disputing Mr. Gandy's right to manage his site however he chooses.

[CameraQuest]

Zeiss ZM and ZF was taken off my site because my grey market sources were cut off by Zeiss, and so I was not going to provide Zeiss was free world wide advertising 24/7. I didn't expect at the time removing the Zeiss ZM pages would be much noticed. Instead is created a lot of interest and generated a minor firestorm at RFF. In response I made made a statement on RFF explaining why the Zeiss pages were taken down -- actually I was surprised peopled cared. As explained on my site from literally day 1, my articles are about favorite cameras. No claim (or attempt) is made to be the #1 Leica M mount info site.

At that time I expected Tony Rose's gray Zeiss sales to go up 3x to 4x with me out of the Zeiss gray market. The opposite happened. Without my Zeiss ZM and ZF pages, Popflash Zeiss sales went down 30%. None of this has nothing to do with my ownership of RFF, other than Huck's imagining that he is in a good position to judge others. I don't think so.

Stephen

[Trius]

Can I vote that we all stop speculating and just let the universe unfold? I'm not suggesting the thread be closed nor will I be disappointed if this thread continues with strong (and sorta OT) feelings, but it's about the photos ... and tangentially the gear that makes 'em fun to capture.

[Xmas]

Guys

Stephen will be sympathetic about any one who has GAS. He will be like a responsible bar keeper with an AA member.

Now I do actually need a Nikon F CV lens, must start saving the pennies.

Noel

[Xmas]

Perhaps Stephen wont mind as much if we cut and paste from his site, since we are now his site anyway?

Perhaps we can have an inverse discount if we have GAS, e.g. 110% of the normal price, perhaps it needs to be higher, to fund a more generous Christmas gift...

Noel

[petebown]

IMHO it seems like a logical move...

I seem to remember Stephen ran the forerunners to RFF... the CVUG and LUG mailing lists a few years ago. It was Stephen's website that persuaded me to sell all of my SLR and MF kit and go completely RF without ever using one before!

It would be a shame to lose the sponsor's links. The non US dealers are not really a direct threat to CameraQuest due to shipping costs and import duties etc. Leicatime and Gordy's Straps are not rivals at all. I can understand that Stephen may not want rivals on his site and the other dealers may themselves withdraw their support. I hope they don't.

I am located in the UK, so my first 'port of call' for equipment would be UK based dealers. However, as a consequence of RFF, I have placed orders with CameraQuest, Leicatime and Gordy's Straps. All of the items that I ordered from these three were not available in the UK.

[kevin m]

None of this has nothing to do with my ownership of RFF, other than Huck's imagining that he is in a good position to judge others.

You're making this personal when it's not. All that's being pointed out is the rather evident conflict of interest.

I don't think so.

And your vote counts more because....?

[rover]

Well, all the talk in the world won't prove what time will. We have had a lot of opinions expressed, all as valid as the next. All we can do is to keep on keeping on to see where we end up.

[kevin m]

We have had a lot of opinions expressed, all as valid as the next.

Not really. It's not an "opinion" to point out a conflict of interest that would, frankly, be illegal in many business settings, it's a fact. The 'opinion' part of the equation comes in guessing as to how this will play out. I will remain hopeful on that count because there's really no other choice. :rolleyes:

[back alley]

You're making this personal when it's not. All that's being pointed out is the rather evident conflict of interest.



And your vote counts more because....?


how could this not be personal?

you stated that part of your concern comes from your experience at p.net, that's personal as it emanates from within you.

for me, i'm with the time will tell crowd. just because i'm a mod here doesn't mean that i am automatically on onside with the changes. i have apprehensions with change also and for those that have been around for awhile, you know that jorge and i didn't always see eye to eye on all issues and i was free to state my candid opinions.
we shall see...

joe

[Socke]

Not really. It's not an "opinion" to point out a conflict of interest that would, frankly, be illegal in many business settings, it's a fact. The 'opinion' part of the equation comes in guessing as to how this will play out. I will remain hopeful on that count because there's really no other choice. :rolleyes:

If it's illegal, file a complaint.

I can't care less, here a company can run a webforum and have advertising from competitors if they want so and as far as I know Cameraquest, the company, has no problem with this.

[kevin m]

...how could this not be personal?

Because I'm not calling Mr. Gandy's character into question, only the situation. My response would be the same no matter what retailer purchased the forum.

I am hopeful things will work out better here on the RFF than on photo.net because the community here is much more genial. :)

[back alley]

so it's not completely personal but it is partially personal, even without character questioning.

anyway, i'm mincing words but i did want you to see my point. there are few things that aren't personal.

[dostacos]

many brands have forums they run AND wheelchairjunkies.com is a wheelchair forum open to all comers regardless of brand. the owner of the site is a wheelchair user and works for a specific brand. when specific questions regarding that brand Mark will answer OR pass the info on to someone else to SOLVE the problem.

What he does not do is remove or stop negative posts regarding his company's brand. he also does not have problems with people recomending other brands.

now all ya'all gotta understand a wheelchair is not a serious purchase, it is MUCH more important than that! Pay sources may not always cover all the costs, the comfort and function is paramount [I am looking at a new power chair that will cost close to the same as my Scion Xb and I will probably need a different car to move the thing to and from where I will be using it. [to/from work, etc]

our cameras mostly are hobby related, the chair is essential to our ADLs and Mark E. Smith has shown that a forum run by someone with a financial intrest can still be fair and impartial.

I would also like to point out that I have always aimed potential buyers looking for Bessa equipment to Cameraquest because my dealings have always been first rate and will contiune to do so

[BronicaLee]

To Jorge, thank you for your commitment to this endeavour and good luck to you in anything you may choose to do in the future. :)

To Stephen, thank you in advance for your expected commitment. You have some big shoes to fill, but I'm sure everyone will be happy to help you along the way. :D

I, for one, do not like change, so I shall persevere to be patient.

[mc_vancouver]

Jorge, you've done a great job. And will continue to do so, I'm sure. And Stephen, thank you for taking this on. It is a great forum. One of the things I like best about it is when you get into a discussion with someone and find out where they live and then you have, possibly, a contact in another city when you visit there. Not that we're all buddies...but still, we have a common connection in our love of rangefinder photography.

[Topdog1]

Guys,
Let's just simmer down here. The beauty of a forum is that if you don't like it you can go somewhere else. And if there's no where else to go, you can start the somewhere else. There is almost zero barrier to entry in starting a Forum. I'm sure Stephen knows this and will endeavor his best to keep this one of the greatest places online for rangefinder and film photography (Ok, digital, too). Stephen's CameraQuest site has probably done more than any other to repopularize rangefinder cameras. This is not a zero sum game - an expanding market will help all of the retailers around the globe, and the camera manufacturers, too. I'm sure Stephen is aware of that. Why would he have bought the site if he were going to kill the goose that laid the golden egg?

Regards,
Ira

[John Camp]

Newspapers for years had a built-in conflict of interest, and still do -- they have advertisers on one hand, and they're covering the community on the other, which often involves saying or implying things about advertiser's products (like car or movie or restaurant reviews.) Good papers never made any bones about this, but simply stated the logic behind their operation: there was a separation between the ad sales component and the newsroom, because if there weren't that separation, people would stop reading the newspaper and then there would be neither an ad forum nor a news forum. The separation was vital for the survival of the paper (some people have always tried to sell "shoppers", which pretend to be newspapers but aren't, and which have never been terribily successful because people recognize them for what they are -- shills.)

The point being that if Mr. Gandy heavy-handedly tries to turn this forum into a peaceful, non-controversial, highly censored arm of CQ, people will leave, and then he won't have a forum.

IN any case, I hope Jorge spends his new millions wisely and the forum rolls along.

But, Yo, Steve -- where's my Nikon-to-M-mount adapter?

JC

[Palaeoboy]

I do share some concerns that certain discussions will be stifled because of this, not directly because of new rules but how we perceive the change. For example although never strictly banned on the CVUG forum any discussion of alternate dealers were often discouraged by other members, "why dont you get it from Stephen its his forum" when people often from outside the USA dont want to buy from a dealer in the USA. Photonet is notorious for this whenever anyone asks where they can get their cameras fixed. No one ever asks what country they are from and its always the same few repairers in the USA that are always quoted. I remember once on CVUG it was made clear that it was an American forum and only English was to be spoken. Although a single common language is helpful some have to battle on with the best English they can but it was the premise that the forum was American and everyone else is an outsider, or thats how I personally felt at the time. This forum you wouldnt even know where it based and really feels like a true international forum. With the advice given here you arent instantly transferred to the USA for all your photographic needs. I hope this keeps up.

Rarely on CVUG are cristisms of certain Voigtlander products perpetuated for very long, again not because its banned but because due to the ownership of the forum people naturally feel reluctant to open up. (Sorry but the black paint on some Voigtlander lenses are quite poor! LOL). I find the conversations are strictly kept on topic there, where as here a bit of generalized discussion gives a far more friendly and diverse impression. I also remember cringing when Stephen could have possibly more tactfully stated it wasnt a democracy and there would be no discussion entered into with his rules, this leaves no room for flexibility or perhaps improvements because you dont dare question anything. Thats the benefits of independence which I think some are fearful may disappear from this forum. Stating those concerns upfront is not a criticism of anyone as I feel its better to be aware of them and perhaps keep an interactive discussion going to help ensure those fears expressed dont eventuate.

The fact that i have sat here debating if i should even post this for fear of offending someone, like Huck has, shows that there is some influence already. I will therefore have to sit in the "lets wait and see" camp and hope that this is a positive move for the forum. Either way, stay or go, Jorge should be patted on the back for his accomplishment and certainly the new addition of fixed lens rangefinders is a positive step forward (and a damn good idea).

[Socke]

Photonet is notorious for this whenever anyone asks where they can get their cameras fixed. No one ever asks what country they are from and its always the same few repairers in the USA that are always quoted.

From many battles on photo.net I got the impression that most regulars don't know that there are other countries :)
Wait until the next elections in the USA and post something a republican might not want to see, the Malecon in Havana makes good bait.

But I shouldn't complain so much about photo.net, I deleted my account early last year and got a honorable banning last autumn :D

Here it is very different, first we are not that fixed on one brand, even if we have much more Leica content then what we had three years ago, its still only a part of the forums, as is Voigtländer and the FSU cameras.

And see the language thread, lots of people here who have some knowledge of other languages than their native ones and, what's more important, try to pick up some words and phrases either for fun or to use abroad or just to be friendly to others.


I remember once on CVUG it was made clear that it was an American forum and only English was to be spoken.


Some time ago someone complained about dpreview.com being unamerican and was very surprised that .com means comercial and not USA based and that dpreview is a british enterprise.

[Topdog1]

The beauty of the forum concept is that if you don't like the forum, you can always go somewhere else or start a new one. I'm sure Steven is sensitive to that fact as well. Your participation in a forum is only as good as your last post. If it changes for the worse, not that I think it has, we can always take our chatter to a new home.

/Ira
P.S. Oops, looks like I'm repeating myself.

[Huck Finn]

The fact that i have sat here debating if i should even post this for fear of offending someone, like Huck has, shows that there is some influence already.

Not to worry, Palaeoboy. My attitude has always been that your best friends are the ones who tell you what you need to hear - not what you want to hear.

If my post, or anyone else's, isn't appreciated, I just remind myself that I have no control over how my words are received. I just try to be honest & open about my thoughts. I would hope that my intent would be appreciated even when there's disagreement.

In that spirit, I for one feel that you have offered a service to the forum by taking the time to write your thoughts & feelings - despite your concerns. I'm sure that they are greatly appreicated by many. Thank you. :)

Huck