View Full Version : I am royally f****d off!
I've posted this same thread on LFPF, since it really concerns them, and I feel like ranting to both crowds...
So I decided I wanted a 4x5 monorail camera for xmas. So dad's credit card comes out, I grab a 'bargain' from a member at LFPF. About £150 for the camera (no lens) and a few goodies.
I gotta say I HATE the system.
The member takes it to the post office over in the USA, they quote him about £15 or so more than the postage was worked out to be. Sting #1
It's sent over the xmas/new year period so takes a little extra time to get here. It SHOULD have been sent as a gift, and marked as such to avoid any nasty surprises. Guess what?
Import duties £7 and VAT (out of nowhere) £35 - Sting #2
And even worse, PARCELFORCE CLEARANCE FEE £13.50!!!!
So even parcelforce get a nice pat on the back for nothing, £13.50! That's more than the import duties cost!
So stung 3 times, and who's going to cover what? I HAVE to pay £55 to get the camera, there's no arguing.
What a bitch. The letter from parcelforce had my surname wrong!!! So is that parcelforce or is that the member being too lazy to spell my name correctly? Not difficult I gotta say. Who here passed English?
I really hope the camera wasn't damaged somewhere down the line, or there will be hell to pay.
ARGH! All this just so I could have a 'bargain' and get into 4x5? I may as well have bought it here for less than that total cost!
Know what the worst thing is? If I wasn't true to my word, and kept to the deal then I coulda said 'sorry mate' to the america guy and gone for the 10x8 DeVere camera with heavy duty tripod +goodies that I was offered the day after I agreed to the america deal (before sending money).
My dad hasn't paid the £55 yet either, so I get home this evening and nearly have an argument AND now I have to sweet talk £55 out of him.
*swears profusely*
EDIT: The DeVere would have been collected in person, so only the cost of getting to Reading, which is hardly expensive versus the crapola I've been through now!
Ash: I sense your frustration and anger, but there are worse things in life, and hopefully this unpleasant eventis somehow improved upon once you receive the 4x5 camera.Let me know how you like 4x5 photography.
Greetings,
Raid
MadMan2k
01-04-2007, 10:21
That sucks. I guess it's not worth the trouble to order things from overseas...
Well in all senses it was a gift, just not as the taxman would like to believe
physiognomy
01-04-2007, 10:26
If it makes you feel any better I'm off for the post office right now to pick up my $40 KNeB that no one else bid on... :)
Sorry to hear you got screwed over Ash... Sounds like you guys over there are better off dealing with people on your side of the pond. I hope the camera checks out ok!
Peter
Gabriel M.A.
01-04-2007, 10:26
That really sucks. Or is it blows? Anyway, yes, I'd be p-d off proper me-self.
But wait on the 4x5; I didn't like it at first (well, it was 2x3), but then it grows on you. I got a Crown Graflex, that, while not exactly the same, brings photography to another level for me.
These view cameras truly are from an era when people had time. Makes loading and using a Contax RF or a Barnack Leica a blink!
That really sucks. Or is it blows? Anyway, yes, I'd be p-d off proper me-self.
My favorite Bart Simpson quote of all time: I didn't think that it was physically possible, but this both sucks and blows.
That is unfortunate, Ash. Kinda makes your camera less of a bargain. Luckily, I have never been stuck with customs duties on items that I have received from overseas (Europe and Japan). Also, I second what Greyhoundman said about falsifying the customs forms that the US postal service requires on international packages.
Well in all senses it was a gift
No it wasn't. The point is that it wasn't a gift from the person in the US who sent it, and so he would have been acting illegally had he declared it as such - whether the person who bought it in the UK intended it as a gift to you is not relevant.
Here in Canada, the Customs duty charge is hit and miss. Sometimes they'll add a charge, sometimes they don't. Two out of the 3 times I sent a camera to the US for repair, they jsut didn't read the info on the package and charged me an import duty for my own camera! These packages were sent back to Canada Customs so they could do their job properly.
Bummer, Ash. But as Raid said, there are worse things that could happen to you/your family. This is only money. (And I'm not being flippant with that remark.)
monochromejrnl
01-04-2007, 10:49
unexpected and hidden costs always suck... but be grateful that your dad is generous enough to buy your camera equipment for you...
Ash, I'm sorry to hear about the end deal not working out well for you, but I've got to agree with G'man. Please don't expect overseas sellers to do the "gift" thing, it's tempting and would benefit us sellers as well, since many sellers, and some dealers do the "gift" thing (I could have sold my *ist 5 times over if I did the gift thing), but not all folks want to do that, as minor of an issue as you may feel it is.
American law, obeying the law blablabla... Americans are funny. They don't want to disobey the law but the carry guns in their back pocket. Whatever.
As far as I'm concerned, I'll always mark the item as a gift instead of letting the government steal the money.
SCOTFORTHLAD
01-04-2007, 11:05
Tough one Ash,certainly takes the shine off the deal.I am almost certain that the UK. Customs rules for charging Duty apply to any item,gift or not,new or used,with a total value of ONLY 36GBP,and that figure INCLUDES Postage cost.
Having said that,the charges are not always invoked,it's a lottery.(European Common Market imports carry no charges at all0
Punitive taxes if you ask me,but a handling fee by Parcelforce is rubbing salt into the wound!!:mad:
Brian.
At least 30% extra is what I expect when buying from US. I have been through 50% extra at one time.
And yes, it is frustrating, but that is how it is.
If you do not like it, keep your purchases within EU, no hidden fees.
In Sweden I have to pay customs and clearance fee. Then they sum that with the shipping cost and the value of the goods, and add VAT/sales tax (25%) on the grand total. When I collect my parcel, I have to pay another fee to pay the previous fees.
/Håkan
Like the UPS brokerage fee on parcels from the US to Canada. Rip-off!
American law, obeying the law blablabla... Americans are funny. They don't want to disobey the law but the carry guns in their back pocket. Whatever.
As far as I'm concerned, I'll always mark the item as a gift instead of letting the government steal the money.
Honestly, relatively few Americans carry a gun around. I am 49 years old, and have never known a soul that carried a gun other than off-duty law enforcement officers. Plus, a back pocket is a bad place, cause it would hurt when you sat down.
markinlondon
01-04-2007, 11:14
I'd be more upset about the Parcelfarce (this is not a typo) charge myself. Taxes are just unavoidable. Hope it's worth it.
At least 30% extra is what I expect when buying from US
Yeah, I bank on 25-30%, and then if a parcel gets through without me getting charged I consider it a bonus. (And as SCOTFORTHLAD said even a "gift" of the value of Ash's camera would have been liable for tax, though I don't know if it affects the likelihood of them charging)
Live and learn Bud.
Be patient, there are plenty of cameras out there.
If you want it sent as a gift, speak to the seller first, and agree this before you bid.
Do your sums, and take into account the worst scenario.
And don't buy stuff you can't afford. (taking into account the above)
In the meantime lets hope you got a good un. There’s always an element of risk in buying blind, you need to take that into account too.
This invariably happens when one buys cameras from the United States - and simply reflects UK postal priorities. I used to resent it myself, but the alternative is to ask an acquaintance or friend to lie. What sort of person does that? The private trading we do thanks to the web depends on honour and even a benign misrepresentation devalues that system (think of all those "r@re", "minty" cameras). I am no particular fan of taxes (and the Parcelforce charge is grotesque) but I would far sooner pay and get a straight deal than impose on someone else.
It should also be remembered that with the decline of the dollar it's Christmas every day for those of us in the Sterling or Euro zone. There are fabulous bargains (and fewer US buyers). We really have very little to complain of.
Cheers, Ian
Has nobody heard of white lies?
Just ask, it's no big deal. The seller will either say, yes or no.
I don't think they (Parcelforce) believe the "gift" thing. But as has been mentioned, anything over £36 gets taxed. What really upsets me is that parcelforce charge for collecting the tax. Who does that? Do shopkeepers charge 17.5% vat and add £5 for colecting it? No!
This might cheer you up. Bought a Canonet from the States. Paid the tax. About a year later it needed a repair. Friendly Yank offered to repair ir, I sent it over, he sent it back insured at my request. parcelforce charged me tax and duty on the full insured value. So I pay tax twice, once rightly, once wrongly. Taxman tells me how to claim tax back, it requires proof that I no longer have. Bugger.
But hey, it's nearly $2 to £1. I bet that camera was still a bargain. A Bessa R with 35mm Color Skopar and brown erc (like Cameraquest do) went for £130 on ebay.com the other day. A Bessa R with Industar 61 is up to £97 with two days to go on ebay.co.uk. Just remember to add the taxes into the equation...
Ash
I'm not sure the VAT man reads the gift label, I think he still likes his %, like if you had be the subject of the Xmas CV body and lens, guess what would have happened...
Sorry.
Noel
Has nobody heard of white lies? it's no big deal.
But it is. A white lie usually means a lie which is convenient to me. If I sold you a broken camera and then pointed out that you had failed to pay insurance and that the package had been damaged in the post, what would you say? I'd be more than happy - I'd have your money and one less broken camera.
It's a matter of trust.
Cheers, Ian
I'll try again they charge VAT on entry the only way to avoid - is to have a receipt for the VAT from the 1st import, and reclaim the VAT, the VAT man is like the IRS, except he is greedy.
Noel
I guess it was just one more thing to go wrong recently, and the 'i told you so' element. I can't believe parcelforce though.
I'll be writing a formal complaint to hand to the courier delivery guy when they hand me my parcel with a name that doesn't match the letter (see the original post), and an invoice for £13.50 'ash-tax' plus £15 'nonsense charges' and see what response I get.
I had a very bad experience importing motorcycle parts from the USA. Never again.
On saying that I ordered a Lightsphere and was expecting to pay vat etc. but no.
Put it behind you and enjoy the camera.
jesse1dog
01-04-2007, 12:53
Hi Ash
Seems you got caught the way I did with my IIa I bought from the States. Its a real pain, but nobody is physically hurt unless your Dad .....!!! I reckoned my camera cost me 40% more than the purchase price when I eventually got it in my hands.
And as for Parcelfore! They had opened the package whilst they had it. No customs examination, I checked. Parcelfore said the package couldn't have been opened by them but they delivered it open. Luckily no damage and nothing missing.
Life isn't fair, but who said it was?
Feel for you though - and there is still Dad to get round!!
American law, obeying the law blablabla... Americans are funny. They don't want to disobey the law but the carry guns in their back pocket. Whatever.
As far as I'm concerned, I'll always mark the item as a gift instead of letting the government steal the money.
I have a permit for my gun and I do obey the lawnot all Americans are law abiding and not all humans are law abiding but don't lump us into one category. I for one am a law abiding American. I also find it funny that people feel the government steals your money. It cost to run a government and I know they are run like crap it still cost. Soldiers, firefighters, and police officers rely on this tax money to feed thier families.
By the way Ash sorry your troubles hope the camera is something you end up loving.
RObert Budding
01-04-2007, 13:42
American law, obeying the law blablabla... Americans are funny. They don't want to disobey the law but the carry guns in their back pocket. Whatever.
As far as I'm concerned, I'll always mark the item as a gift instead of letting the government steal the money.
Do you evade income taxes, too? The import duty is just another tax.
At least carrying a gun is legal (but not concealed) - even if you don't like it.
But it is. A white lie usually means a lie which is convenient to me. If I sold you a broken camera and then pointed out that you had failed to pay insurance and that the package had been damaged in the post, what would you say? I'd be more than happy - I'd have your money and one less broken camera.
It's a matter of trust.
Cheers, Ian
Look it's a private sale, it shouldn't really be taxed, but perhaps silly laws insist it must. I don't care much for silly laws, or the tax man for that matter, he gets enough of my money to waste on (rant rant rant, trying not to go into all that, rant rant rant, aaaaagh), I'm just not in the habit of giving money away.
If I sell you a camera through one of these forums, or for that matter on e-bay, I'll be honest about the condition of the camera. If I can do something simple to help you avoid paying the tax that you really shouldn't be paying anyway, I'll try and help you with that.
And if you ask me to do something that I don't want to do, I'll give you a straight answer.
If a friend comes over to your house, and you have an old laptop that they want. You sell it to them, and you get the money.
Q. Would you...:
A. Call up HM Revenue & Customs
B. Pocket the money and leave it at that
Ash, sorry to hear of your troubles. I hope you enjoy the camera. This may seem to be a major setback now, but trust me, it will seem less so after the many thousands of pounds in income taxes that is in your future. It sucks, but that's just the way it is.
Was the seller your friend? If not, why would you expect him to lie for you?
If a friend comes over to your house, and you have an old laptop that they want. You sell it to them, and you get the money.
Q. Would you...:
A. Call up HM Revenue & Customs
B. Pocket the money and leave it at that
B - Because that is exactly what the law requires, as you'll discover if you pay Income Tax - private sales of items of personal property below a certain value or outside certain catagories are not taxed:
http://www.direct.gov.uk/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/Taxes/BeginnersGuideToTax/BeginnersGuideToTaxArticles/fs/en?CONTENT_ID=4016313&chk=dyI1d%2B
Gareth, you demonstrate my point exactly. In one post you express a willingness to lie, in the next you assure me of your honesty. None of us know anything of each other here beyond what we read. That's why transactions have to be kept absolutely straight. You may happily expect other people to lie for your convenience, at no risk to yourself but at significant risk to them, but I have too much respect for my fellow members. We have to count on each other to tell the truth.
Cheers, Ian
Bad luck Ash ... a learning experience and as they say what doesn't kill you makes you stronger!
In this country it's pretty clear cut. If an item you buy from overeas exceeds $1000.00 aust in value you pay gst or duty ... if it doesn't you don't ... not a cracker! Some sellers I have dealt with have been happy to undervalue items for me but some are reluctant and I accept that. These sort of things could surface for a seller at a future time if he was unlucky enough to be audited by the tax dept.
But then again we have about seven of the world's most poisonous snakes from memory ... you only have Tony Blair! :angel:
Whoops ... was that a knock on the door.....? :eek:
David Murphy
01-04-2007, 16:30
One problem with falsifying shipping documents (other than the highly significant fact that it's immoral) is that if you understate the value, that's all you are going to collect on insurance if its lost or broken.
But then again we have about seven of the world's most poisonous snakes from memory ... you only have Tony Blair! :angel:
Now thats funny, we have a few poisonous snakes and a bush.
Matthew Runkel
01-04-2007, 16:33
I'm not sure there is anything about this transaction that warrants your level of rancor.
You live in a country with a VAT system, and the VAT is built into prices so you rarely notice or think about the fact that it is always being collected. Here you just happen to have had a transaction where collection of the VAT is noticeable.
Parcelforce is not a public charity. http://www.parcelforce.com/portal/pw/content1?mediaId=load105044&catId=2500042 Is that really such a shock?
Seems to me you are down to complaining that they misspelled your name, which is a silly thing to complain about.
BrianShaw
01-04-2007, 17:08
Has nobody heard of white lies?
That must have been on the third tablet - the one Moses dropped. :angel:
Seems to me you are down to complaining that they misspelled your name, which is a silly thing to complain about.
I'd like to see every business associate spell your name Mathew Runkle and see how long before it feels like you're being stabbed in the eye repeatedly :)
As for the other posts I understand its dishonest, but it really does annoy me when so many people like to take a cut from this. Everyone benefits except the person trying to receive the item.
Matthew Runkel
01-05-2007, 03:33
I'd like to see every business associate spell your name Mathew Runkle and see how long before it feels like you're being stabbed in the eye repeatedly :)
It happens from time to time (the poor fools) . . . yet I endure :)
B - Because that is exactly what the law requires, as you'll discover if you pay Income Tax - private sales of items of personal property below a certain value or outside certain catagories are not taxed:
http://www.direct.gov.uk/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/Taxes/BeginnersGuideToTax/BeginnersGuideToTaxArticles/fs/en?CONTENT_ID=4016313&chk=dyI1d%2B
Gareth, you demonstrate my point exactly. In one post you express a willingness to lie, in the next you assure me of your honesty. None of us know anything of each other here beyond what we read. That's why transactions have to be kept absolutely straight. You may happily expect other people to lie for your convenience, at no risk to yourself but at significant risk to them, but I have too much respect for my fellow members. We have to count on each other to tell the truth.
Cheers, Ian
Gosh!
You ever read Catch 22?
I guess I'm just an honest lier.
Jocko's text is the problem - I buy a 50 year only cam from a Canuk it is posted from Quebec, I pay VAT, on value declared on import. If it is a gift same tax.
If the Canuk is in Euro land and he sells it to me do I have to pay? Do I know he is a Canuk, people mistake me for Canuk.
It is a leica made in Weltzar, he may have bought it in Euroland, it may have been imported into Canuk land and exported again, if he has the orig DM receipt is it taxable? If he has lived all the time in DM land is it taxable.
If I send the cam to states for CLA I still get taxed on import and need origional receipt from 50 years ago or when I bought it to claim the tax back...
The tax point seems arbitary.
Noel
P.S. We undertand about having a 'tiger snake in top paddock', and one can only sympathise with Ash.
Bush has paid his dues in last election round.
Blair's party may be next in line, a lot of Muslims may vote tactically, some Christians to...
Our worst problem is that our mortal enemy has taught us how to paint, not since '21 have we has such a hard lesson.
BrianShaw
01-05-2007, 14:23
...people mistake me for Canuk...
I didn't know you could tell a Canuk just by looking. Perhaps you should consider getting a different haircut, or wearing a short-sleeve shirt... or maybe a new tie would help. :)
I buy the occaisional camera from car boot sales. Should I be paying tax on them?
I didn't know you could tell a Canuk just by looking. Perhaps you should consider getting a different haircut, or wearing a short-sleeve shirt... or maybe a new tie would help. :)
It's the mullet. Frank and Gord strike again. Every man loves the beaver.
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