View Full Version : Nikkor-N 1.1/5cm
US Patent of Saburo Murakami incl. diagram:
http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT2828671
And who was the inventor of this design? Albrecht W. Tronnier/ Schneider- Kreuznach 1930! see here: http://www.geocities.com/taunusreiter/DE565566_Schneider-Tronnier_1930.pdf
Boy, what have these companies missed after WWII !!
- Frank -
Hi Frank,
Thanks for posting the patents.
Have a page on your website listing those patents? I don't seems to be able to find it..
Cheers
Will
Hi Will,
that's belonging onto my "prewar fast lens history" page:
http://www.taunusreiter.de/Cameras/Biotar.html
.. of couse, English translation is on my list when I once did all the updates. This one will be done in ~ 6 hours. google-patents is great stuff for research...
development page: http://www.geocities.com/taunusreiter/Biotar.html
That's interesting. I wonder why Schneider-Kreuznach never built and marketed the 50mm f/1.2 lens in this 1930 patent? There was a need for a fast optic in the era of slow films.
Total production of the Nikkor 1.1 was about 3,000 lenses ... it was an expensive specialty optic mainly for professional photographers whose equipment was bought by their companies.
The book "Nikon Rangefinder Camera" by Robert Rotoloni, says the Nikkor 1.1 was first built and sold in early1956 when Nippon Kogaku was "able to produce a lens that would have been impossible just a year earlier. Due to advances in surface coatings and glass technology that allowed for split elements and air spacing, February 1956 saw the introduction of the super fast 50mm f1.1 Nikkor-N."
It sounds as though manufacturers needed to develop new skills, expertise, materials and methods to achieve the ideas presented in the 1930 patent.
Nikon's company history says the development of the 5cm/1.1 lens required newly developed Lanthanum glass ...
A "key design feature of the 5cm f/1.1 lens was the use of a newly developed type of optical glass made with the rare-earth element lanthanum (La) in three (3) convex (positive) lenses. This provided significant improvements in spherical aberration, curvature of field, sharpness, and image flatness."
They say it's a Gauss type, based on the Sonnar.
The article is posted at:
http://www.nikon.co.jp/main/eng/portfolio/about/history/nikkor/n07_e.htm
Why Schneider-Kreuznach didn't make it 1930?
Probably cost. A.W. Tronnier's son (who is over 80) wrote me his father as a young engineer was forced by his boss (after successfully launching the f/2 Xenon) to develop a f/1.5 lens with only 6 elements, which (no wonder) turned out as bad performer and quite never sold. Maybe it was prior, or after this patent.
In summary Schneider-K. was probably the most innovative optical firm of the 1930's. Remember they licensed Leitz to build their 7-elements f/1.5 Xenon (Summarit after the war)
Technically there were at least two 'cons in the 30's: No coating technique and not available high-refractive glass(three of the Nikkor-N lenses were made of glass with an refractive index=1.71, whereas Tronnier couldn't use higher glass than with 1.6525)
..Whereas in the 50's there was high refractive Lanthan glass available in general. So the real question is, why didn't made it in the 1950's ??
Not Schneider-Kr. who hadn't lens designers skilled enough after Tronnier had changed to Voigtlaender (where he designed the Apo-Lanthar; of course build with Lanthan-glass 1950)
What happend later is well-known: Zeiss-Ikon overtook Voigtlaender and throttled their development in favor of their own Contarex system, and lenses.
For the next 15 years they continued telling their customers, especially in Germany - how fast a lens had to be and how it should look like - until they had enough and bought Japanese cameras.
Tronnier even developed an 0.87/76mm lens with excellent correction and capable of 75l/mm wide open as a freelancer for an American company looking like this:
http://www.geocities.com/taunusreiter/super-farron_1k.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/taunusreiter/super-farron_2k.jpg
Why Schneider-Kreuznach didn't make it 1930?
Probably cost. A.W. Tronnier's son (who is over 80) wrote me his father as a young engineer was forced by his boss (after successfully launching the f/2 Xenon) to develop a f/1.5 lens with only 6 elements, which (no wonder) turned out as bad performer and quite never sold. Maybe it was prior, or after this patent.
In summary Schneider-K. was probably the most innovative optical firm of the 1930's. Remember they licensed Leitz to build their 7-elements f/1.5 Xenon (Summarit after the war)
Technically there were at least two 'cons in the 30's: No coating technique and not available high-refractive glass(three of the Nikkor-N lenses were made of glass with an refractive index=1.71, whereas Tronnier couldn't use higher glass than with 1.6525)
..Whereas in the 50's there was high refractive Lanthan glass available in general. So the real question is, why didn't made it in the 1950's ??
Not Schneider-Kr. who hadn't lens designers skilled enough after Tronnier had changed to Voigtlaender (where he designed the Apo-Lanthar; of course build with Lanthan-glass 1950)
What happend later is well-known: Zeiss-Ikon overtook Voigtlaender and throttled their development in favor of their own Contarex system, and lenses.
For the next 15 years they continued telling their customers, especially in Germany - how fast a lens had to be and how it should look like - until they had enough and bought Japanese cameras.
Tronnier even developed an 0.87/76mm lens with excellent correction and capable of 75l/mm wide open as a freelancer for an American company looking like this:
http://www.geocities.com/taunusreiter/super-farron_1k.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/taunusreiter/super-farron_2k.jpg
Frank,
May I suggest you do a page listing Lens patent numbers for future references?
Will
What marvelous lens designs. Tronnier appears to have been a very talented designer (I was goling to say "gifted" but that doesn't translate as well into German).
Hej Vince,
"Tronnier's Optisches Rechenbureau" (later in the 50's) in Goettingen for sure has had some mathematically talented people, including its boss... he started at Joseph Schneider ~1926 aged 24 as the first and solely optical engineer... do google "Tronnier Xenon" and you'll find a picture of him at young age on my website
cheers Frank
The extremely rare Zunow 5cm 1.1 appears to have been introduced in 1955 or perhaps even earlier. It is also a nine-element design. It was considerably smaller than the Nikkor 5cm 1.1, so it can't be using the exact same formula. The Nikkor 1.1 is something of a monster in size (I'm judging only by photographs -- I've never actually used one). But the Zunow looks like a lens you wouldn't mind keeping attached to the camera all day long.
http://www.cameraquest.com/zunow.htm
http://www.pacificrimcamera.com/pp/zunow/zunow.htm
Here is the formular. It's the fastest Sonnar type lens ever build:
http://www.taunusreiter.de/Cameras/zun_11.jpg
Patent: http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT2715354
At least the patent was before the Nikkor-N. Highest refraction glass=1.74. Sleek aberration curves!
NIKON KIU
01-03-2007, 10:20
Hi there,
According to Nikon Historical Society Journal number 58(NHS-58 Journal) the Nikkor-N 5cm f1.1 was the product of research by "five of the top optical manufacturers in Japan" as the Japanese government requested that these five companies use all their technical resources to produce an ultra fast lens of "F0.65 or F0.85 lens for use on the Japenese X-ray machines".
The five optical companies were:
Fuji Kogaku
Konica Kogaku
Minolta Kogaku
Nippon Kogaku
Ohara Kogaku
The main objective of this research was to produce new glass types.
The Nikkor -N 1.1, Fuji 5cm 1.2 and Konica 60mm 1.2 are all products of the Joint venture.
Kiu
I am really feeling great to have a Nikkor 50mm/1.1 on loan from Kiu!
raid
At least from pictures it look as one of the nicest lenses to me ever build...
How much weight and filter size Nikkor-N have, Raid?
What would you guess, is it more a close-focus or a middle-distance lens?
cheers, Frank
NIKON KIU
01-03-2007, 10:48
15 ounces
62mm filter size
Here is the formula:
Kiu
Thanks, Frank..
Maybe we should build the list up?
It's 4am in HK, catch you tomorrow..
It's interesting to me that Nikon and other Japanese manufacturers made their lens formulae public ... The diagrams are widely available on advertisements and brochures from the era. So they were being public about their designs and breakthroughs, not evasive or secretive.
This is all quite interesting information here.
Raid
By the way, Raid, everything I've read abou the Nikkor 1.1 says its aperture blades are very fragile. So be gentle when changing f/stops.
Vince: I have been very gentle with all lenses, and Iam done with the testing.
Thanks for the reminder.
Raid
Not only the Japanese lens maker published the diagrams, but it looks like some made more effort with patent protection than others. Zeiss has most, LEICA some, Canon less, NIKON and Pentax havn't many patents on lenses. After all you need a lot more information, glass type and stuff, to copy a lens as just diagrams. Even the patent diagrams don't include all information, i.e. hide enlargement of front elements in order to increase edge illumination (less light falloff). 62mm is a good filter size. The Canon has 72mm. Noctilux 1/50 has 60, and light-falloff is quite visible.
Raid: I really liked seeing your test shots from the 1.1. Those are the only shots I've ever seen taken by the lens, other than a few poorly reproduced images from the 1950s. I looks like a marvelous lens.
..but expensive one, at least for people like me! :bang:
Vince:I was lucky by making a mistake and getting reasonably sharp images out. I left out the Nikon-Contax adapter. Maybe you experts on the history of lenses can tell me whether the Nikkor 50mm/1.1 was ever built in the Contax mount.
Kiu wants his lenses back, and I don't blame him. I will take another good look at the Nikkor before mailing it to him. :-)
Raid
David Murphy
01-03-2007, 16:24
That's interesting. I wonder why Schneider-Kreuznach never built and marketed the 50mm f/1.2 lens in this 1930 patent? There was a need for a fast optic in the era of slow films.
Total production of the Nikkor 1.1 was about 3,000 lenses ... it was an expensive specialty optic mainly for professional photographers whose equipment was bought by their companies.
The book "Nikon Rangefinder Camera" by Robert Rotoloni, says the Nikkor 1.1 was first built and sold in early1956 when Nippon Kogaku was "able to produce a lens that would have been impossible just a year earlier. Due to advances in surface coatings and glass technology that allowed for split elements and air spacing, February 1956 saw the introduction of the super fast 50mm f1.1 Nikkor-N."
It sounds as though manufacturers needed to develop new skills, expertise, materials and methods to achieve the ideas presented in the 1930 patent.
I think the lack of anti-reflective coatings in 1930 was probably another factor. The light losses and internal reflections without them would probably be horrific.
Kiu, do you have a diagram of the Olympic Nikkor-S as well ? I read you have the S3-2000. I'm quite tempted by this lens and camera; it seems to me the prices of chrome one have fallen.
I'm not sure I've ever seen a diagram of the Olympic Nikkor. It is similar to, but not identical to, the SLR version (smaller rear element, closer to film).
I read somewhere it's based on the regular RF Nikkor-S 1.4/50 with one element thickened. If so, it would be a Sonnar type, and Sonnars usually not found on SLRs...
On the other hand, when they made it originally 1964, it would make sense if they have had adopted their latest and best lens of that time, which probably was the newest SLR lens design.
It behaves differently from a Sonnar (I own an actual Sonnar, a classic Nikkor and the reissued Nikkor-2000/Millenneum). I've heard others say it's based on a double-Gauss/Planar design.
Physically, the Olympic/Millenneum is much larger than the Sonnar/Nikkor-S. The rear element is as large as physcially possible within the limits of the Nikon/Contax lens mount, and unlike the Sonnar, it is flat or close to flat. The center of the lens -- halfway between front and back -- is quite "fat" compared to the Sonnar design. The front elements are much further from the film plane. Without disassembling it, the lens really does resemble an SLR Nikkor 50/1.4 ... similar flat rear element, similar front element ... however, it sits closer to the film plane than the SLR lens does.
See also this thread:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25733
NIKON KIU
01-04-2007, 13:18
Kiu, do you have a diagram of the Olympic Nikkor-S as well ? I read you have the S3-2000. I'm quite tempted by this lens and camera; it seems to me the prices of chrome one have fallen.
Hi Frank,
Unfortunatly I do not, the original version came out as a special release and was only available on very late SP's and the so called "Olympic S3" which was a special release of black S3,with a lotta Nikon F stuff I might add,commemorating the 1964 summer Olympics held in Japan, it was a direct competition to the Canon 7s being sold at the same time.
I have never seen the formula of this revised version anywhere, which is said to be the same formula as the reissue for the millenium edition with modern coating.
Regards,
Kiu
BTW, I have been visiting your website, very very interesting but GAS producing:)
Kiu: is this the lens that I have on loan from you ?
Raid
NIKON KIU
01-04-2007, 14:36
Kiu: is this the lens that I have on loan from you ?
Raid
Yes.
Kiu
Thank you. GAS is a dangerous desease, I know..
A formular of the (1962/ SLR) Nikkor-S 1.4/50mm can be found at the active Malaysian Nikon community: http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/nikon/nikkoresources/50mmnikkor/index2.htm
lens designer Zenji Wakimoto, patent: http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT3560079&id=BMNTAAAAEBAJ&dq=3560079
Gaussian objectives with 7 lenses and *two* cemented groups came out of fashion in the last 25 years, at least with the top lens makers... Nikon changed it later to a more common 7/6 design.
cheers Frank
jonmanjiro
11-20-2011, 05:17
The Nikkor 1.1 is something of a monster in size (I'm judging only by photographs -- I've never actually used one).
Bump for an old thread :)
The Nikkor 50/1.1 is a big lens, but surprisingly not that heavy. It balances well on an SP.
There's lots of photos taken with this lens in the following thread.
www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82952
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