M8 - Reality Check Ii [Archive] - Rangefinderforum.com

J. Borger

12-23-2006, 06:38

Can somebody tell me, right to my face, - no Michael Reichman bull..., please, the status of affairs regarding banding, blip'iing, IR-casts and other hanki-panki that might have been found by M8 users, and to what probability these faults might be streighten out by software up-dates and filters. Per now.

Is M8 a reliable camera? Or a $ 4,795 paperweight?
What's the point of starting this again .... mileage varies.
I am happy with the first version including streaking and IR sensitivity ... but nobody believes me or anybody else who states he likes that camera.
Especially people who prefer testing cameras in all kind of weird situations instead of shooting real life pictures consider it a paperweight that seriously limits their kind of photography:)

jaapv

12-23-2006, 09:43

A reliable camera.98 % of my shots are technically superior to any other camera I've ever owned.

Ben Z

12-23-2006, 10:32

A reliable camera.98 % of my shots are technically superior to any other camera I've ever owned.

Which is meaningless to the guy who 98% of his photography is in the area of your 2%...for instance shots of people wearing black clothing, taken in dark settings above ISO 640 with overhead spotlights that play havoc with filters, like jazz clubs or city streets at night...which happens to be a major preference among many Leica RF users. Guys like you and me who take travel shots mostly outside during the day operate most of the time outside the M8's problem zone.

Sailor Ted

12-23-2006, 10:38

people wearing black clothing, taken in dark settings above ISO 640 with overhead spotlights that play havoc with filters, like jazz clubs or city streets at night...

Is this true of filters coated on both sides? I think not and if "not" then your whole argument is meaningless. However if filters coated on both sides exhibit the deleterious effects you infer I stand humbly corrected.

Also take a look at my gallery if you wish- it is squarely with in "Leica's problem zone" as you put it all shot on the R-D1s. In a couple of weeks I'll have new shots to share taken on an M8 again in this "problem zone" (Las Vegas after dark) and we shall see if the M8 is up to the task or not. As for the other DRF option currently available, it has a severe set of issues in this zone as outlined in a number of my posts backed up by photographic evidence as well as on my gallery. My guess is that the M8 will be less problematic, not more so when compared to the R-D1 under similar circumstances.

I will be 100% honest and share the good, the bad, and the ugly (if it exists) when I return from Vegas. But I’ll say this- if the Leica performs as I hope it will then this non-sense should end.

Ben Z

12-23-2006, 11:10

Ted, there's been a lot of talking in circles about whether or not the IR filters are MRC or not and so far only Sean Reid who has some real Leica filters says his are engraved "MRC". That said I use MRC UV filters (multicoate on both sides) on all my lenses and I still have to take them off when shooting in those situations or else I get reflections/ghosts etc, so I don't see how the IR filters would be better regardless of whether they are MRC or not.

Insofar as the RD-1 goes, Sean has said the RD-1 suffers much less from IR contamination than the M8. If I find I have a serious problem with mine that can only be solved with an IR filter which would cause flare and ghosts, at $1395 for a refurb the experiment will cost me about what I'd need to spend in filters alone for an M8. If it bombs there's still nothing stopping me from getting an M8 and by that time maybe it won't have to sit on the shelf for two months till I can get some Leica MRC filters :( And I can either sell the RD-1 or keep it for a backup...you know, something to limp along with while my M8 is in the shop :D

Gid

12-23-2006, 11:10

Is this true of filters coated on both sides? I think not and if "not" then your whole argument is meaningless. However if filters coated on both sides exhibit the deleterious effects you infer I stand humbly corrected.

Also take a look at my gallery if you wish- it is squarely with in "Leica's problem zone" as you put it all shot on the R-D1s. In a couple of weeks I'll have new shots to share taken on an M8 again in this "problem zone" (Las Vegas after dark) and we shall see if the M8 is up to the task or not. As for the other DRF option currently available, it has a severe set of issues in this zone as outlined in a number of my posts backed up by photographic evidence as well as on my gallery. My guess is that the M8 will be less problematic, not more so when compared to the R-D1 under similar circumstances.

I will be 100% honest and share the good, the bad, and the ugly (if it exists) when I return from Vegas. But I’ll say this- if the Leica performs as I hope it will then this non-sense should end.

I really do hope that the M8 makes you happy. However, a word to the wise, if you pixel peep you can find something "wrong" with any D camera. Looking at an image at 100% on screen shows you what it would look like printed at your screen resolution (72 - 90 dpi for most screens). So, shoot, print, enjoy and forget about comparisons.

Sailor Ted

12-23-2006, 11:27

I really do hope that the M8 makes you happy. However, a word to the wise, if you pixel peep you can find something "wrong" with any D camera. Looking at an image at 100% on screen shows you what it would look like printed at your screen resolution (72 - 90 dpi for most screens). So, shoot, print, enjoy and forget about comparisons.

Gid I am very much a forest shooter not a "miss the forest for the trees" kind of guy. What I anticipate with the M8 is world-class sharpness and a sense of three dimensionality reminiscent of low speed film shot on my M6. This will not however be determined by pixel peeping but rather the overall impact of images and prints.

When I post images and exploded views of images shot on my R-D1 it is not because I am dissatisfied with this camera (far from it I like the camera very much). It is to show that the R-D1 is far from perfect, that the M8 made better decisions in regard to the inherent compromises that must be made when designing a DRF camera, and that the M8 is being held to an unobtainable standard given the current state of technology. Hopefully very soon I will be posting images shot on my (soon to be) new M8 :) that are in a league far beyond my R-D1's wildest dreams.

The treatment the M8 is receiving here and else where is unfair, illogical, and not called for. To me Leica is an old friend and just as I would do for any long standing friend I am defending their honor and supporting them as much as I can- not out of blind loyality but out of respect for the logical decisions they have made in designing to the M8.

Ted

Magnus

12-23-2006, 11:56

A reliable camera.98 % of my shots are technically superior to any other camera I've ever owned.

When shooting "Mountain scenes" and normal uncomplicated shots the M8 performs as well as any other semi-pro DSLR. <the Leica glass will indeed give the extra "zing" to the image, but only in average day to day photography.

When using the M8 for what one uses Leica for, low-light photography it produces images which indeed are not comparable. You should go and see the examples on LUF on what the exact effects are, and no they don't happen all the time, but in my opinion some of the time is bad enough .....

All in all I would wait until all problems are solved, I wish I would of done so ....

Sailor Ted

12-23-2006, 12:00

...only in average day to day photography. When using the M8 for what one uses Leica for, low-light photography it produces images which indeed are not comparable.

Whatever.....

http://www.flickr.com/search/?w=32121828%40N00&q=m8&m=text

Magnus

12-23-2006, 12:10

Sailor Ted, you don't look wider than your nose is long or what?

There are multiple examples of these, well let's stay civil, "mis-haps" of M8 images on the web. Now a counter argument amongst the die hard leica aficionados is that this only happens every now and then, might I add that "every now and then" is not tolerable!

Magnus

12-23-2006, 12:12

As mentioned for day to day family snaps it is a good camera, but I would think most folk buy the M8 to get a bit more than day to day images .... in this case it won't do .... it just is not good enough.

Gid

12-23-2006, 12:33

Gid I am very much a forest shooter not a "miss the forest for the trees" kind of guy. What I anticipate with the M8 is world-class sharpness and a sense of three dimensionality reminiscent of low speed film shot on my M6. This will not however be determined by pixel peeping but rather the overall impact of images and prints.

When I post images and exploded views of images shot on my R-D1 it is not because I am dissatisfied with this camera (far from it I like the camera very much). It is to show that the R-D1 is far from perfect, that the M8 made better decisions in regard to the inherent compromises that must be made when designing a DRF camera, and that the M8 is being held to an unobtainable standard given the current state of technology. Hopefully very soon I will be posting images shot on my (soon to be) new M8 :) that are in a league far beyond my R-D1's wildest dreams.

The treatment the M8 is receiving here and else where is unfair, illogical, and not called for. To me Leica is an old friend and just as I would do for any long standing friend I am defending their honor and supporting them as much as I can- not out of blind loyality but out of respect for the logical decisions they have made in designing to the M8.

Ted

If Leica had gone with the crowd and dealt with the IR issues in camera, then, there would not have been so much hoo ha about its problems. Leica sets the bar high and therefore expectations have been somewhat unrealistic. If they'd stuck a 1.3 crop 10 MP sensor and optical VF into the digilux 2 they would most likely have had a real winner, even with a fixed zoom. As it stands there are a set of compromises that one has to deal with, that really should not be there. To argue that this is just a sensible implementation is nuts - they mucked up. This doesn't mean that you won't be able to make decent images with it, its just that it is not as good as a Leica should be. In my opinion, trying to defend a third rate implementation of a second rate solution is brand loyalty beyond my comprehension. However, if it works for you (the royal you) GREAT. Personally, I can see that the emporer is nude.

BTW, I'm no Leica basher. I have an M6, an MP and a lot of money in Leica lenses.

Good light to all :)

Sailor Ted

12-23-2006, 12:46

If Leica had gone with the crowd and dealt with the IR issues in camera, then, there would not have been so much hoo ha about its problems.

*sigh*

Actually if Leica had taken the road more traveled then the camera would not produce images as sharp with far more issues then is currently the case and with issues similar to those of the R-D1 that miraculously have gone unnoticed but would now be getting a great deal of attention. The fact as you put it is Leica does set their bar high- VERY HIGH and the M8 delivers images to that level. Of course we are required to go through a few extra steps, like using IR cut filters- so what, and the M8 is more expensive then an R-D1s whose imaging issues and limitations would never be tolerated on the M8.

If people cannot afford an M8 or do not wish to purchase one that's fine but it does not take away from what the M8 is- the worlds best DRF by a HUGE MARGIN and the worlds best digital camera in a small form factor.

Sailor Ted

12-23-2006, 12:49

Magnus

12-23-2006, 13:04

"but it does not take away from what the M8 is- the worlds best DRF by a HUGE MARGIN " well taking into account that there are only 2 at the moment this is not a big thing, by a huge marging though might be a bit strong... The only huge margin applicable here is the price tag.

"the worlds best digital camera in a small form factor" the most expensive for sure, the best ..... again a matter of opinion.

Gid

12-23-2006, 13:09

*sigh*

If people cannot afford an M8 or do not wish to purchase one that's fine but it does not take away from what the M8 is- the worlds best DRF by a HUGE MARGIN and the worlds best digital camera in a small form factor.

This is risky ground.:eek:

Affordability has nothing to do with it. First out of two isn't that much to shout about. :D The margin is a moot point and irrelevant if the other DRF is "good enough".

When you have your M8 in your hands and have posted some shots, then, I'll listen to your arguments. Until then, you're basing your arguments on what you've seen or read on the web.

I really do hope that you enjoy the M8 and make some fabulous images with it.

Chill out and stop trying to convince everyone. The most important opinion in all of this is yours.

Best regards

Magnus

12-23-2006, 13:13

A wise old goat this Gid is .....

Magnus

12-23-2006, 13:14

:-) ... ...

Sailor Ted

12-23-2006, 13:27

This is risky ground.:eek:

Affordability has nothing to do with it. First out of two isn't that much to shout about. :D The margin is a moot point and irrelevant if the other DRF is "good enough".

When you have your M8 in your hands and have posted some shots, then, I'll listen to your arguments. Until then, you're basing your arguments on what you've seen or read on the web.

I really do hope that you enjoy the M8 and make some fabulous images with it.

Chill out and stop trying to convince everyone. The most important opinion in all of this is yours.

Best regards

Hmmm. What may I ask are you basing your opinions on? As to trying to convince people, there are a hell of a lot of people here trying to convince not only people who don't own an M8 not to buy one, but also those who do (own one) of their folly. Yes the M8 is the leader in a two horse race but it's also one of the worlds best digital cameras based on some of the shots I've seen and acording to some of the worlds most respected digital print makers- so again, what are you basing your opinions on?

Gid

12-23-2006, 14:34

Hmmm. What may I ask are you basing your opinions on? As to trying to convince people, there are a hell of a lot of people here trying to convince not only people who don't own an M8 not to buy one, but also those who do (own one) of their folly. Yes the M8 is the leader in a two horse race but it's also one of the worlds best digital cameras based on some of the shots I've seen and acording to some of the worlds most respected digital print makers- so again, what are you basing your opinions on?

I'm basing my opinion on the same data as you are. However, my opinion is irrelevant to anyone but me. I haven't said that the M8 is not a "good" camera, I haven't tried to convince anyone not to buy one and I haven't derided anyone who has bought one. If you want to evangelise over something you've only read about, then that is your prerogative. I am not knocking the M8, I am just not convinced that it is the best thing since sliced bread. If someone was kind enough to give me an M8 I'm sure that I would enjoy using it in spite of any issues it might have. However, I still say that the emporer has no clothes on and that is my prerogative:)

Another two pints please then we can continue our debate at that table in the corner.;)

Gid

12-23-2006, 14:34

A wise old goat this Gid is .....

I can agree with the old:D

AusDLK

12-23-2006, 15:58

hmmm... I have owned one. The M8 is a paperweight.

I catch a lot of flak for my downer opinions but since I continue to see people offering support for Leica and the M8 often with less first hand experience then I have, I see no reason to remain silent... yet.

>The treatment the M8 is receiving here and else where is unfair, illogical, and
>not called for. To me Leica is an old friend and just as I would do for any long
>standing friend I am defending their honor and supporting them as much as I
>can- not out of blind loyality but out of respect for the logical decisions they
>have made in designing to the M8.

I could not disagree more. To me, Leica was an old friend.

Leica has betrayed many of it's loyal customers either by delivering a flawed product in the minds of many early adopters (and then has taking some rather hair-brained steps to resolve them); and/or by delivering a pretender product that simply betrays many of the time-tested traditions of M photography for whatever reasons, logical or otherwise.

Some people do (or will) like and accept the M8. If that's you, then considering how badly I wanted to love the M8, I envy you. Honest. But I'd be willing to bet that 95% of these people would say that the M8 is not really the camera that they were hoping for in more ways than one. (In other words, they are settling...)

And for a camera costing more than $5000 when all is said and done and for which many, many people waited a long, long time for, I think that is reason #1 to lose faith if not respect.

jaapv

12-23-2006, 16:17

When shooting "Mountain scenes" and normal uncomplicated shots the M8 performs as well as any other semi-pro DSLR. <the Leica glass will indeed give the extra "zing" to the image, but only in average day to day photography.

When using the M8 for what one uses Leica for, low-light photography it produces images which indeed are not comparable. You should go and see the examples on LUF on what the exact effects are, and no they don't happen all the time, but in my opinion some of the time is bad enough .....

All in all I would wait until all problems are solved, I wish I would of done so ....

You mean second-rate mountain scenes like these I suppose...:
(Ausdk, if this is a flawed product I'll take flaws for breakfast every day...)

ISO 640 Elmarit asph
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e32/jaapv/L1000153-001.jpg
ISO 1250 1/4 th hand-held Elmarit 24 asph
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e32/jaapv/L1000152-001.jpg
ISO 1250 1/10 th hand-held Elmarit 24 asph
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e32/jaapv/L1000148.jpg
ISO 160 Tri-Elmar long
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e32/jaapv/pegel.jpg

AusDLK

12-23-2006, 16:28

jaapv

12-23-2006, 16:34

>You mean second-rate mountain scenes like these I suppose...

IMHO the first two are rather second rate but...

The second two (especially the last) are stunning and quite lovely. You should be proud of these -- regardless of the camera used.

Two out of four (or batting .500 is baseball parlance) is pretty darn good.

PS. Jaap -- As I said, if the M8 works for you then I envy you.

Thanks Dave- but please note the camera did not let me down on any of the shots. The number of technically spoiled shots is virtually nil. I do not mean the ones I blew - not the camera- that is considerably more, to say the least. And that is exactly the reason I do not understand your posts.

AusDLK

12-23-2006, 17:08

>Thanks Dave- but please note the camera did not let me down on any of the
>shots. The number of technically spoiled shots is virtually nil. I do not mean
>the ones I blew - not the camera- that is considerably more, to say the least.

Jaap --

You're welcome. And I completely agree that the reasons I was less impressed with the first two images was completely unrelated any negative aspect of the camera.

>And that is exactly the reason I do not understand your posts.

I have specifically chosen to keep the specifics regarding my distaste for the M8 off the forum. I actually voiced these early on (i.e., back around Photokina) and see no point in rehashing them.

I do pipe up now and again because I remain bitterly disappointed with Leica and I do not like seeing them getting free passes in so many postings without a counterpoint. It is interesting to me to see more similar counterpoints in recent posts then there were just a few weeks ago. What do you suppose that means...?

If you'd like to contact me OL (at ausdlk@gmail.com), I'd be happy to discuss my personal views with you.

Enjoy your M8. Right now I am gazing lovingly at my beautifully restored chrome M3 sporting a new ZI 35mm F/2 lens from Tony at Popflash and resting in (my personal) knowledge that this is what an M camera is all about. (IF only it had an SD card slot...)

aad

12-23-2006, 17:46

Is that magenta leather?!

Sailor Ted

12-23-2006, 17:57

I have specifically chosen to keep the specifics regarding my distaste for the M8 off the forum.

I do pipe up now and again because I remain bitterly disappointed with Leica and I do not like seeing them getting free passes in so many postings without a counterpoint.

Yea you're too busy throwing around cogent arguments like "CRAPTASTIC" and "POS." Very persuasive.

I am gazing lovingly at my beautifully restored chrome M3 sporting a new ZI 35mm F/2 lens from Tony at Popflash and resting in (my personal) knowledge that this is what an M camera is all about. (IF only it had an SD card slot...)

Awwahh- Pimp my Leica- yikes! I will however concede I too wish the M8 were more like an M7 with an SD card slot and a flip out screen. Alas.

AusDLK

12-23-2006, 18:14

Well, actually it is called dark burgundy lizard (http://www.cameraleather.com/colors/darkburgundy_lizard.htm).

Although I have no problem per se with anything magenta... ;)

AusDLK

12-23-2006, 18:18

>I will however concede I too wish the M8 were more like an M7 with an SD
>card slot and a flip out screen. Alas.

I think this is further support for my "they are settling..." argument. But that must be slip up because someone doesn't like anything this one has to say...

dspeltz

12-23-2006, 18:21

I love my M8 in spite of the purple people eater who will be put to rest in a few weeks. It is a wonderful camera.

John Camp

12-23-2006, 19:42

Sailor Ted

12-23-2006, 19:59

JC,
Yes I got the last one (I can't wait) and I'll be posting my photos from an upcomming trip to Las Vegas- man what an idiot I must be : )

ST

Ben Z

12-24-2006, 07:30

Speaking of another kind of reality check -- the most serious kind, because it involves actual money rather than virtual money -- Jorge announced yesterday (this morning?) that Tony Rose had several silver M8s for sale. Tony has now announced that they are all gone -- something like eleven hours, I think, for ~$35,000 worth of what some seem to think are terribly flawed, essentially unusable camera bodies. Must be a lot of idiots floating around this forum; they should be taken out and beaten for their stupidity. But you probably couldn't find them, because they are out taking photographs... :)

JC

If M8s are still wait-listed, how is it these didn't get sent out to people on Tony's list rather than offered up for public sale? Surely among all those scads of people who're supposedly still on every dealer's waiting list, he could've found takers for a small number of them regardless of what color they were. :rolleyes: