View Full Version : Is the problem still there?
These are with the new M8. I see one vert banding in one shot. Do you see others.
But no ghosting with the Heliopan filter.
Ray Harms is experiencing problems with the B+W filters when shooting with bright lights in the image. he gets a ghost flare using the B+W. I tryed to duplicate the problem usingthe Heliopan filter but could not.
I see the band in the fourth shot, but it's odd because it doesn't line up with the brightest part of the image, the way the old banding effect did. Maybe this one is a genuine, old-fashioned, optically-induced flare, although it's unusually linear for a conventional lens flare...
Sailor Ted
12-16-2006, 14:48
Are these similar issues? All shot on the R-D1 with various lenses (Zeiss and CV).
Are these similar issues? All shot on the R-D1 with various lenses (Zeiss and CV).
Sailor
No, Jorges problem looks like a defective sensor. Sorry Jorge, but it looks different than the original one.
Sailor, your problem looks like a filter problem. I assume your talking about the ghost image of the flourescent tubes. Are you using any find of filter on the RD1? If so, take it off and try again.
Jorge, your pictures do not show any signs of filter flare. But that does not surprise my as the Heliopans are ant-reflection coated on both sides. Or at least the ones I have are. I found this to be very important especially fro use on a digital camera. There is a thread going on about this on Leica camera users forum
Rex
Sailor Ted
12-16-2006, 17:02
Thanks Rex (WOOF!),
No I don't use any filters so I guess it's just my glass or some other condition. That said it does not bother me as it does not take away from the composition (or lack of thereof :). Even so what can I do or could it be another issue?
I just got my 1.09 M8 today. Well Leica did fix the issues which we were seeing with the early 1.06 cameras,
HOWEVER, WE NOW HAVE A NEW SET OF PROBLEMS.
1) A light vertical line is appearing to the right of center frame in situations with low light and higher ISOs (640,1250,2500). This is not evident when shooting at lower ISO or any outdoor shots.
Here is link to the vertical line by Alexander Tufte. http://www.leica-camera-user.com/dig...stripe-m8.html
This line is EXACTLY the same between all of our 1.09 cameras. (SAME position, SAME width)
2) The B+W 486 UV/IR cut 486 filters are causing flare. When you have a bright light source in the frame these filters are causing a ghost image from flare.
You can also see this thread. http://www.leica-camera-user.com/dig...good-news.html
My concern is that Leica is selecting the B+W filter for their/our use and will have Phase One develop camera profiles to fix the color with this filter.
At this point, it appears the Heliopan filter may not have this issue at all and would be a better choice.
Attached is are picture which are an admitted torture test with flare, but please note that without the filter there is no flare. These are quicky shots that would have showed the banding on the 1.06 cameras instantly, which is why I took them.
I am going to take some photos tonight of street scenes with lighting from Christmas decorations, car lights, street lights, neon from shopping / restuarant areas. to see what happens in normal shooting situations.
Let's use this as a summary of issues thread vs. a bitch session.I really want to get this camera running with no issues.
Thanks Rex (WOOF!),
No I don't use any filters so I guess it's just my glass or some other condition. That said it does not bother me as it does not take away from the composition (or lack of thereof :). Even so what can I do or could it be another issue?
Not using a filter?,,,,,interesting. I have a RD1 so I will do some tests. Actually, in looking at thim again, it looks like it could be a double image off the sensor glass. As you know the Epson uses a much thicker absorptive filter than the M8. The multiple reflections of the air/glass and glass/glass surfaces could result in the results your are getting.
However, I have not seen the results you are getting before with my own RD1. Gives me something to do while awaiting my M8!
Rex
arf....ARF!
Sailor Ted
12-16-2006, 17:57
Rex,
While you're at it what do you make of this?
As allways a BIG WOOF WOOF to you!
Rex,
While you're at it what do you make of this?
As allways a BIG WOOF WOOF to you!
AHHH... you mean the blue fringing? That is a problem that Leica was trying to address by using a real thin .5mm IR filter. Thats right folks, Leica traded one problem for another. In the end, Leicas approach may prove to be the right one. But right now Leica is under such a microscope that even the tinist thing will get discovered. Our dearly beloved RD1 has plenty of issues that I never noticed until the M8 thing made my more sensitive. The RD1 has the magenta/black issue but I never noticed it. A lot of cameras have problems with IR contamination.
Rex
nice doggy,,down,down,DOWN
Harnsr:
I see banding coming off the first two lights as well as this new strange band you've pointed out. I'm very disturbed to see this, especailly since I could be waiting until way after the new year, because of customs and Christmas shipping delays, to get my "fixed" M8 back to New Zealand. If I have any more problems with my camera I'm asking for a refund. That would be worst case as I really love my M8. Having it my hands and getting excited about photos again because of the possibilities it opened up was priceless. I'll be shooting often at high speeds - 640 and above.
Having read the LUF stuff about this I can't make out if most people with a fixt M8 are experiencing these problems or if it's an unlucky few.
Any word?
Tim
Harnsr:
I see banding coming off the first two lights as well as this new strange band you've pointed out. I'm very disturbed to see this, especailly since I could be waiting until way after the new year, because of customs and Christmas shipping delays, to get my "fixed" M8 back to New Zealand. If I have any more problems with my camera I'm asking for a refund. That would be worst case as I really love my M8. Having it my hands and getting excited about photos again because of the possibilities it opened up was priceless. I'll be shooting often at high speeds - 640 and above.
Having read the LUF stuff about this I can't make out if most people with a fixt M8 are experiencing these problems or if it's an unlucky few.
Any word?
Tim
Tim
It seems that most people that are getting their cameras back are not taking the hard shots.....yet. Time well tell. By this time tommorow I'm sure the jury will be in.
Rex
I am writing from my p-hone. So excuse the typos. something to make note of. i was out with my Richo GR which a friend gave me. as I was taking a picture of a front door which had a lamp on each side, both lamps showed vertical bands in the display. it did not capture the bands on the final shot because the flas kicked in. But, the banding on the lcd was so much like what we see in these samples
xayraa33
12-16-2006, 18:28
Ah.. just stick to film Leicas.
Just got my M8 a few days ago. Black is purple on some daylight shots of my wifes black vest also on the black sweater of a salesmen inside local camera shop with tungston light. Software is V. 1.9 and lens was a Canon 50mm 1.4 version II. When will they get it right? Have to get those filters fast.
Here are some samples of at various ISOs of the streets in my neighborhood.
They show the flare problem with the filters and the vertical line in the exact same place every time.
Here is the same photo of the garage without the filter.
It still has the vertical band, but no ghost image from flare.
The vertical line only appears to be visible on a lower light background. However, on second review it is possible to just see it faintly in at the top of the frame. Go down in alignment from the pictures in the previous posts and you will see it at the top of this frame also.
willie_901
12-16-2006, 20:39
The garage/Christmas lights photos seem to have more blooming than I would expect.
What do you think about this?
Thanks,
willie
Willie,
They do, but the BIG issues are the VERTICAL BAND and the FLARE.
Best,
Ray
Man oh man. All this latest news sure makes my decision to dump the M8 weeks ago and happily return $5000 to my bank account look better and better...
I have a second R-D1, a 35mm f/1.2 Nokton, a Rokkor 90mm, a Epson 3800 printer (soon), and still money left over...
I really think that if you guys want Leica to survive you better just settle for the M8 as it is in all of its craptacular glory or Leica will be history if they aren't already.
I'm happy and envious of all of you who bought an M8 or are still planning to. My bloodpressure would be through the roof if I'd spent $5000 and found out I needed another $1000 in filters, plus got flare from them and on and on and on. I am so happy I decided to wait. My $800 20D gives me zero grief and the image quality is good enough. Maybe the M8 is capable of more resolution etc but it's all theoretical since there are so many issues standing in its path.
Sailor Ted
12-16-2006, 21:28
I'm happy and envious of all of you who bought an M8 or are still planning to... I am so happy I decided to wait. My $800 20D gives me zero grief and the image quality is good enough...
Ben you're not a troll : (
Sailor Ted
12-16-2006, 21:30
Man oh man. All this latest news sure makes my decision to dump the M8 weeks ago and happily return $5000 to my bank account look better and better...
I have a second R-D1, a 35mm f/1.2 Nokton, a Rokkor 90mm, a Epson 3800 printer (soon), and still money left over...
I really think that if you guys want Leica to survive you better just settle for the M8 as it is in all of its craptacular glory or Leica will be history if they aren't already.
You however are most certainly a TROLL.
Sailor Ted
12-16-2006, 21:42
OK here is my first stated reservation regarding the M8. The black shift is IMO a non-issue since it will be dealt with via filters. I'm also assuming the Leica filters will not ghost- if they do ghost then the ghosting is a big issue IMO. Now to the issue that seems to be very serious- banding. Perhaps someone who knows more about digital technology as it pertains to this issue can prove me wrong or shed some positive light (I certainly hope so) but unless a firmware fix is in the works that takes care of this issue, the M8 will not be a camera for me. My Digilux 2 banded like crazy and for this reason and countless others I hate that camera.
As to the Troll statement in light of this statement- I stand behind it, as it's the spirit behind so many posts that smacks of TROLLDOM IMO. Constructive conversation is what these forums are all about- not mean spirited vendettas.
willie_901
12-16-2006, 22:09
Ted,
The IR sensitivity remains a concern. It appears (based on early posts to the LUG) the Leica supplied IR filters have a reflection/flare problem.
The banding on the updated M8s that we saw today is quite strange. It doesn't seem to be related to a strong light source, it seems to lack symmetry, and it is rather wide. Perhaps this problem is limited to a few units and will not be observed in all the updated M8s.
By early January we'll know whether or not the first M8 update is a success, and if the Leica supplied filters cause problems, and if there are third-party filters that work better.
There is a rumor that Leica will use a newly announced thin IR filter with increase IR attenuation in the M8 sometime this summer. Even if I won the lottery tomorrow and drank a tall glass of "I must shoot digital because..." Kool-Aid, I would not even think about buying a M8 for 6-12 months.
willie
You however are most certainly a TROLL.
Ted omg... He was an early owner of the M8 and then returned it after finding out all of its faults! omg..
The only bad thing about these on-going M8 problems is that for the potential digital RF buyers, the RD-1 is depreciating much slower than anticipated..
There is a rumor that Leica will use a newly announced thin IR filter with increase IR attenuation in the M8 sometime this summer.
Let's hope so. Anything else looks like a recipe for problems.
That banding is troubling, hopefully another firmware update can fix it.
Ian
>You however are most certainly a TROLL.
Ted, respectfully, please stop reading my posts until the affects of the Kool-Aid wears off. Thanks.
PS. ywenz -- Thanks for your kind words...
Ben you're not a troll : (
I certainly have no such intention. I had $5000 in my hot little fist ready to lay at Leica's feet but with this filters and coding hogwash have decided to wait for the next model, if there is one. Frankly I'm the kind of guy Leica should be trying to satisfy, not the 1,000 or so who jumped on the first batch. I know that sounds selfish and cruel but I believe it's guys like me who hold the key to Leica's survival. I can't see where there can be enough people who will accept whatever nonsensical kludge and spin-doctored excuses Leica hands out, that Leica can turn a profit on the M8. If I'm wrong about that then Leica will keep things as they are and still be in business for years to come, but without me as a customer.
Trolls or not, We all have a right to express our opinions. However, when I read some posts I have this mental image...
"...writer standing with thumb on tip of nose, hand outstretched, wagging little finger at those who own and enjoy the M8, ..."
M8 users could flood these pages with poor images from other systems (but exercise restraint, and save the space)
If one side has the right to express their views, AND how they express them, then the others should have a right to call it as they see/read it.
Full disclosure: I get a real kick out of the byplay!
Regards
Victor
Jim Watts
12-17-2006, 08:43
I am writing from my p-hone. So excuse the typos. something to make note of. i was out with my Richo GR which a friend gave me. as I was taking a picture of a front door which had a lamp on each side, both lamps showed vertical bands in the display. it did not capture the bands on the final shot because the flas kicked in. But, the banding on the lcd was so much like what we see in these samples
Jorge,
My GRD shows an incredible amount of banding with strong lights in the frame on the LCD display, but these don't appear in the captured image even without flash.
This is another reason I usually use the VC 28/35 mini finder with this camera.
Jim
>Full disclosure: I get a real kick out of the byplay!
Full disclosure from this one: I have lots of fun playing the evil one...
(Not that my point of view is not 100% heartfelt.)
jameshays
12-17-2006, 09:59
This add on filter issue is exactly what I was afraid of. About a year ago I shot an indoor event with a digi SLR and forgot to take the UV filter off my 1.4 lens. Most of the shots ended up with reflections and halos from light sources in the room. I've been filterless since. If someone finds that certain brands of filters aren't prone to this I'm all ears. Otherwise it might be a while before I own an M8.
Harry Lime
12-17-2006, 11:09
Man oh man. All this latest news sure makes my decision to dump the M8 weeks ago and happily return $5000 to my bank account look better and better...
I have a second R-D1, a 35mm f/1.2 Nokton, a Rokkor 90mm, a Epson 3800 printer (soon), and still money left over...
I really think that if you guys want Leica to survive you better just settle for the M8 as it is in all of its craptacular glory or Leica will be history if they aren't already.
These guys already have enough aggravation to deal with. Is it entirely necessary for you to bust their ba**s every time there is an M8 thread?
In other words 'Grow up' Mr. famous photographer.
HL
This add on filter issue is exactly what I was afraid of. About a year ago I shot an indoor event with a digi SLR and forgot to take the UV filter off my 1.4 lens. Most of the shots ended up with reflections and halos from light sources in the room. I've been filterless since. If someone finds that certain brands of filters aren't prone to this I'm all ears. Otherwise it might be a while before I own an M8.
James
Yes, filters can cause reflections. But it is the UNCOATED ones that wreak havoc in strongly backlit situations. For some reason people don't consider coating to be important when purchasing filters. The fact that uncoated filters are even available puzzles me. I don't see any uncoated lenses available.
By the way, multicoated lenses are much preferred in extreme backlite situations
Rex
John Camp
12-17-2006, 11:25
The discussion on the Leica forum has indicated that the flare problem comes from filters that are coated on only one side (the outside) and that the "flare" is not true flare, but a reflection (probably off the surface of the sensor itself) and is present whenever you use filters under certain conditions, on any camera. It's not just a Leica problem. Jorge doesn't get it because he uses Heliopan filters, which are coated on both sides. Apparently the standard B+W IR cut filters are not. There's a variety of ways to take of the problem, actually, and none is too onerous. (For example, you get the reflection when you're shooting into hot lights at high ISOs. You can not do that. Or, you can simply take the filter off, and if you have a lot of IR reflective clothing around, use of Jamie's C1 corrections to remove some of the red. But this, of course, is one shot in a thousand -- how many times are you shooting into hot lights at night with lots of IR and reflective clothing around and you have no choice but to do that?)
As to the possible "trolling," it's not the individual posts that bother me, its the inane repeition of things that have been said a million times already. They don't say it, but the implication is, "Boy, am I glad that I'm smarter than you stupid people because I didn't buy (or returned ) the M8 and bought something good like a Canon, where I don't consider the inherent softness and the blotchy wide-angle corners to be a problem." 8-)
JC
ANOTHER UPDATE:
Shooting at 160 and 320 I have not seen the vertical band.
It shows up at 640 and gets worse as you crank the ISO up.
It is less noticeable with the B+W 486 than it is without the filter.
Ray
Like others have said, if this is because of the new firmware, then another firmware fix could fix it. Still, it's alarming that this digital thing is so hard for Leica to get right..
I shot these sample just a little while ago at iso 640. taken with the 35 lux NO IR filter. I thought I saw the band in one of the images. The one where mom is preparing a cup of ice cream for the boy. but now I can't see it. It could be my monitor. but all of the attached were done at 640 with Auto Levels in PS.
For now, I can acceptthe camera the way it is and hope firmware updates will resolve the issue. The pros of the camera outweigh the cons and beside the RD1 there is nothing out there that will take my M lenses. So, my only issue now are the WB and the banding. The IR was never an issue since the filters corrected the problem. I am sure the WB will get better in the future. and the banding is hard for me to see.
I shot these sample just a little while ago at iso 640. taken with the 35 lux NO IR filter. I thought I saw the band in one of the images. The one where mom is preparing a cup of ice cream for the boy. but now I can't see it. It could be my monitor. but all of the attached were done at 640 with Auto Levels in PS.
For now, I can acceptthe camera the way it is and hope firmware updates will resolve the issue. The pros of the camera outweigh the cons and beside the RD1 there is nothing out there that will take my M lenses. So, my only issue now are the WB and the banding. The IR was never an issue since the filters corrected the problem. I am sure the WB will get better in the future. and the banding is hard for me to see.
Jorge
Would you mind me asking why you posted a bunch of pictures of the M8 showing its IR contamination? What would be more interesting is to see a comparision after you use the Heliopan filter to supress the IR.
Rex
I shot these sample just a little while ago at iso 640. taken with the 35 lux NO IR filter. I thought I saw the band in one of the images. The one where mom is preparing a cup of ice cream for the boy. but now I can't see it. It could be my monitor. but all of the attached were done at 640 with Auto Levels in PS.
For now, I can acceptthe camera the way it is and hope firmware updates will resolve the issue. The pros of the camera outweigh the cons and beside the RD1 there is nothing out there that will take my M lenses. So, my only issue now are the WB and the banding. The IR was never an issue since the filters corrected the problem. I am sure the WB will get better in the future. and the banding is hard for me to see.
Jorge
Lets hope that the banding issue part 2, is isolated. Your posted photos have shown that from a practical point of view, the camera performs fine.
Rex
P.S do you leave the Heliopan filter on all the time? Does it seem to resolve the Purple/black issue 100% of the time?
Rex,
Unfortunately, the vertical band really does show in night shots on the street.
This does need to be fixed or we lose what used to be the strong point of the M.
Ray
but the implication is, "Boy, am I glad that I'm smarter than you stupid people because I didn't buy (or returned ) the M8 and bought something good like a Canon, where I don't consider the inherent softness and the blotchy wide-angle corners to be a problem."
No sir, that's not the implication, that's your inference for whatever reason. My exact feeling is that I can swallow "inherent softness and the blotchy wide-angle corners" from my $800 20D refurb than I could swallow all the designed-in problems, not to mention the added expense and further problems created by the band-aid "solution" on a $5000 Leica. I'm not feeling smug about not buying an M8, I'm feeling cheated and disappointed. I wish I could muster a positive attitude instead of feeling like a sucker for punishment or believe me I'd be on a waiting list right now.
Rex,
Unfortunately, the vertical band really does show in night shots on the street.
This does need to be fixed or we lose what used to be the strong point of the M.
Ray
harmsr
I know that your camera, unfortunately has the vertical band. I am hoping that yours is an isolated incident. What I wondered is how many others have had a vertical band problem with their returned cameras?
Rex
Rex, Look at the first post in the thread. You will see that I have the band as well. It just does not show up very often for me.
John Camp
12-18-2006, 18:17
There is a similar-looking problem with some medium format backs, which is being discussed in the MF forum on Luminous Landscape. Without repeating what is said there (where it's called the "centerfold" problem):
1) Some people say that although the banding looks very similar, the problem is not the same. I'm not a tech guy, so Ican't argue, but I will say that it appears to be identical, just looking at it.
2) Those who have the MF problem say it tends to get worse over time. That is, it first shows up in dark high-ISO shots, and slowly becomes more visible, and in lower ISO shots. If I had a camera with this problem, I'd make some match shots that show the problem in conditions that you can replicate (dark wall, single light) to see if it gets worse over time. Even in some cameras that have the problem, you can only see it in certain extreme conditions, and you could live with it. If it gets worse, then you can't.
JC
Has anyone seen the band on an actual print? My printer is not hooked up so I cannot tell.
Jorge,
I have an Epson R800 and yes it shows in the prints exactly as it does on the screen.
Ray
that is not good :( Anyone here from Leica on this? Most likely they are all gone for the holidays.
Last news is that only some camera's are affected, some not.
And there is a suggestion that the band mainly shows up on unfixed camera's that downloaded 1.09. For what it is worth.
lovelyleica
12-26-2006, 16:04
After series of photos made with an M8 from the latest batch, I got on 2 pictures a very strange green banding. Photos and details on my web site here :
www.e-mager.com (http://www.e-mager.com/blog/blog.html)
John Camp
12-26-2006, 20:43
After series of photos made with an M8 from the latest batch, I got on 2 pictures a very strange green banding. Photos and details on my web site here :
www.e-mager.com (http://www.e-mager.com/blog/blog.html)
This is dealt with on the LUG. That band appears only when a very bright light (VBL) hits the non-photo-registering line of pixels at the very edges of the frame. (Better to read the LUG for the technical explanation of this.) But the banding occurs only when the VBL hits the very edge of the frame. If you have a camera with this fault, you can learn to make band every time by slicing the edge of the frame though a VBL. You can also learn to avoid slicing the edge of the frame through a VBL, and you'll never get a band. In your photos, look where the frames slice the VBLs, and you'll see what I mean.
Like a couple of other problems with the M8, this apparently involves some kind of a timing problem, and can be fixed.
Another problem is called "scratchy lines" or "rainbow lines" and shows up if you try to take a photo when the camra is asleep, by forcing it to fire. In other words, wait until the camera goes to sleep, then frame a photo and hold the trigger down until the camera fires. The frame will have scratchy lines. If you wake the camera, wait a split second before you fire it, then you won't have the scratchy lines. The cure for this one is for Leica to issue firmware update which inserts a small period of time (perhaps a tenth of a second) between the time the camera is waked and the time it fires.
JC
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