View Full Version : FSU vs Russian Leica copy
shadowfox
12-13-2006, 12:31
Hi all, I'm a complete neophyte when it comes to FSU RF cameras and/or cameras from the Eastern Europe. Few questions that have been in the back of my mind as of late:
1. The Leica copies made in Russia, are they real cameras? or just a pretty shell meant for display only?
2. If they are real cameras, are there people who use it and like it? I wouldn't expect that the quality is like the real Leica, but is it close? not even close? based on what?
3. How's the "real" (as in not a copy of anything) FSU cameras like Kiev, Zorki, Fed, compared to the Leica copies in terms of quality, value and usability?
rogue_designer
12-13-2006, 12:40
1. The Leica copies made in Russia, are they real cameras? or just a pretty shell meant for display only?
Most are functional - being based off of a Fed or similar then with new bodywork.
2. If they are real cameras, are there people who use it and like it? I wouldn't expect that the quality is like the real Leica, but is it close? not even close? based on what?
I have no idea. But if it is based off the performance and build of a Fed, many will like it, but it won't really be comparable to the tolerances and build quality/performance of the Leica (sorry Comerades)
3. How's the "real" (as in not a copy of anything) FSU cameras like Kiev, Zorki, Fed, compared to the Leica copies in terms of quality, value and usability?
Well most of the Fed's are essentially Leica copies, the Kiev's are Contax copies already - it's just a matter of whether they keep their own branding and dials, or whether someone tries to really make it look "exactly" like a Leica. They can be a very good value, provided you get one in good shape - and once CLA'd by a pro (like Oleg) they make great shooters.
That said - I'm no Fed-xpert so others are free to jump all over and correct my previous statements.
1, They're real cameras.
2, People use them and like them.
3, They're not Leica's! My Zorki 4K plus Jupiter 8 50mm/F2 lens cost about £10. An M2/3 +50mm would add a couple of "0"'s to the price!
Best advice? Get one, run a few films through it. See what you think. If you don't like it, put it back on ebay, get your money back.
P.S. I also love Olympus. Couldn't part with my XA.
The Leica copy's are just FED,s or Zorki,s with Leica engraved in place of FED or Zorki , If your lucky they have been cleaned and lubricated but I wouldn't count on it .
The best idea would be to either buy a FED or Zorki from Fedka or Oleg that has been serviced and is ready to go , Or if your willing to take the chance and are mechanically adept buy one from one of the various sellers on Eb*y .
Build quality is variable plus you have to remember that most of these camera's are getting on in years and are very unlikely to have been treated with kid gloves or even used for quite a long time .
But they are cheap and with a little tinkering in some cases , are great , affordable LTM system cameras capable of good results .
Paul
Right, as mentioned, the Leica Copies are FEDs and Zorkis that have had their engravings filled in and then re-engraved with the Leica logo, etc. And also, many go so far as to do the same with some Industar collapsible, re-engaving the "Elmar" logo to match the "Leica" body.
If the forger/artist started out with a complete and good working FED or Zorki camera, then it's a possiblity that the copy (once re-assembled after painting :cool: ) could be in decent working order as well. But there's no guarantee of this. Parts are quite interchangable between models and sometimes makes, so the pretty, freshly painted Leica copy could very well be a hodge-podge "FEDZorkenstien" of parts from who knows where.
Another big downside to me - IMHO - as far as the "Leica" engraved copies is simply the price. It's often crazy-money for what? Paint. It's not too difficult to buy two good FEDs or Zorkis that will take good photos for the price of one [maybe, maybe not good] L.Copy. And occasionally, for a few dollars more, one can even purchase a genuine user Barnack Leica.
There are guys here that have, use and like good L.Copys so I'm sure they'll jump in with the better voice of experience. As far as FEDs 'n Zorkis 'n Kievs 'n stuff, the RFF.Gallery is full of great shots that came from still-kickin' FSUs.
cheers
edit: I think this one (http://cgi.ebay.com/LEICA-III-Old-Camera-D-R-P-Heer-Exclusive-Collect_W0QQitemZ320060138438QQihZ011QQcategoryZ30 030QQtcZphotoQQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem ) has had the paint redone. ;) and has been floating around in the Bay for over a year now.
I fully agree with all the above! I'd just add that the term "Leica copy" tends to be very loosely used, especially by E-bay sellers. A Fed 2 or Zorki 4 is in no meaningful sense a copy of anything.
As for the FED1, which is closely based on the Leica II, and the Zorki 1, which is based on the FED - these are excellent cameras and much loved by many here,
But... the cameras dressed up as Leicas are - IMHO - to be avoided. Apart from the fact that many are junk, hideous or both, one of the joys in FSU cameras lies in what they are: solid, plain honest machines with a splendid history of their own.
Cheers, Ian
shadowfox
12-13-2006, 14:09
How about this one (http://cgi.ebay.com/Perfect-copy-of-Leica-Limited-edition_W0QQitemZ180057041472QQihZ008QQcategoryZ15 234QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem)? Looks decently crafted (of course, it could also be the case of "don't trust the photos", right?):
vanyagor
12-13-2006, 14:21
How about this one (http://cgi.ebay.com/Perfect-copy-of-Leica-Limited-edition_W0QQitemZ180057041472QQihZ008QQcategoryZ15 234QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem)? Looks decently crafted (of course, it could also be the case of "don't trust the photos", right?):
For that price you can get a real Leica. But this one does look cool of course :)
Well, Shadowfox, dubious aesthetics aside, that camera isn't a copy of anything - certainly not any Leica. At the least I think one might be greviously troubled by the potential for light leaks from the back (ALL barnack Leicas are bottom loaders).
Furthermore, it costs £200! You can buy a bag full of Feds or a real Barnack Leica for that! It is, in my view a curiousity, nothing more.
Cheers Ian
wolves3012
12-13-2006, 15:08
How about this one (http://cgi.ebay.com/Perfect-copy-of-Leica-Limited-edition_W0QQitemZ180057041472QQihZ008QQcategoryZ15 234QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem)? Looks decently crafted (of course, it could also be the case of "don't trust the photos", right?):
Some of the Leica fakes don't look too bad, although IMO it's a waste of a nice FSU camera (or cameras!). Ones like this are just gaudy and OTT, they are just nothing like anything Leica would have turned out. I guess they must have their devotees or they wouldn't be made but I can't see something like this being used beyond an ornament. Waste waste waste....
Ok, rant over!
wolves3012
12-13-2006, 15:23
Hi all, I'm a complete neophyte when it comes to FSU RF cameras and/or cameras from the Eastern Europe. Few questions that have been in the back of my mind as of late:
1. The Leica copies made in Russia, are they real cameras? or just a pretty shell meant for display only?
2. If they are real cameras, are there people who use it and like it? I wouldn't expect that the quality is like the real Leica, but is it close? not even close? based on what?
3. How's the "real" (as in not a copy of anything) FSU cameras like Kiev, Zorki, Fed, compared to the Leica copies in terms of quality, value and usability?
1. They're real cameras (mostly). Often not one real camera, but real. In reality they may well be made of a mix of parts that renders them useless as a camera, pot-luck on that part!
2. See above, they may be in good usable condition, or then again they may not. They aren't likely to compare to the quality of a Leica, being made from a camera that wasn't as well made..
3. The "normal" FSUs are nice cameras. If you get a good one they are excellent users. Remember that the body of any camera is essentially a film box to which the lens attaches. The lens takes the picture, not the body. FSU lenses are generally excellent performers. Yes, I know the body can cause problems due to incorrect lens register, poor shutter operation etc, but the ultimate picture quality is still lens-determined.
Personal opinion: As has been pointed out by others, why bother with a fake Leica? Get a real one for not hugely more or be happy with a standard FSU that's honest. The fakes won't fool any Leica afficionado, and non-camera people often don't even know what a Leica is anyway. I think it's what is usually called a lose-lose situation!
How about this one (http://cgi.ebay.com/Perfect-copy-of-Leica-Limited-edition_W0QQitemZ180057041472QQihZ008QQcategoryZ15 234QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem)? Looks decently crafted (of course, it could also be the case of "don't trust the photos", right?):
That one, IMHO, is pretty cool. It certainly looks like care was taken with the work. If it didn't have fake engraving on the top, I'd be happy to own it.
As has been said, you could have a very nice real Leica for the same money. That doesn't mean that particular model isn't worth what they are asking, just that it is an unknown quantity.
I suppose you could always get it, and decide once you had it whether it met your expectations. The worst that could happen is you would relist it on auction with a "buy it now" price equal to what you paid, and be out shipping. Not really that great a risk IMHO, especially if you save the auction pics in case you need to use them yourself. The seller certainly has enough positive feedback.
How about this one (http://cgi.ebay.com/Perfect-copy-of-Leica-Limited-edition_W0QQitemZ180057041472QQihZ008QQcategoryZ15 234QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem)? Looks decently crafted (of course, it could also be the case of "don't trust the photos", right?):
Or for a lot less money you could get this one (http://www.fedka.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=66) from a reliable dealer.
I've been a member of RFF for three months and one thing I have learned since being here: Leicas break too and are expensive to be fixed. Get a FED 2. I promise you'll love it.:D
shadowfox
12-13-2006, 21:23
Gosh, thanks for your answers, what a learning experience for novice like myself.
You guys are surely passionate and knowledgeable about these cameras. Wouldn't expect less from the FSU Forum folks :)
If I would like to try out an FSU camera, that fulfill this one:
Must be easy to load film, when I read that I have to cut 10cm or whatever of the film to fit it into the spool for older Leica's I'm turned-off instantly, my idea of shooting with classic cameras doesn't extend to cutting films, sorry :)
... which one would you guys recommend (I count yours as a recommendation too, gb hill)
And also, where did you guys usually get your FSU cameras? (some of you already sugggested Fedka and Oleg ... see, I do take notes :) )
I'm not afraid to shop on eBoy (I got most of my Olympus collection from it), but I've never bought stuff from outside of US, let alone somewhere far like say, Ukraine. What are your FSU camera international shipping experiences (if any) ?
Don't really now the specifics of which kind of FSU camera loads, so I can only speak for the ones that I own, all 3 of them (FED 5, Zenit-E, Zenit-122) are as simple as can be to load, as easy as any other 35mm film camera.
vanyagor
12-13-2006, 23:18
- Well none of the FSU cameras I own requires cutting film.
- Standard negative film is cut already anyway unless I'm missing something
- fed 2 is a small convenient reliable choice (and cheap too). It's not bottom load, so it is easier than fed 1 (although fed 1 is smaller and more stylish IMHO).
- Zorki 3M is a great camera (though a bit more expensive)
- Zorki 4 and 4K are one of the cheapest (35$ with Jupiter 8 lens) and most common (I prefere fed 2 and Zorki 3M though)
I bought all my FSU cameras from ebay (most of them shipped form Ukraine or Russia) and my experience was from good to very good.
12-14 Hi,you can't beat a Fed2...............Robin
Cutting the film leader is for the bottom loaders , Most of the other FSU cameras have a removable back or even a swing back in the case of the Zorki 6 .
Recommendations , FED 2,FED 3,Zorki 3M,Zorki 6 Apart from the 3M most can be picked up for peanuts , and in a lot of cases postage from the Ukraine costs more than you pay for the camera :eek: though its academic really because you will end up with more than one once FSUGAS kicks in :D
One thing to remember is that the majority of these cameras have probably been in the back of the cupboard unused for years , They will need a little tlc and some adjustments to work reliably , But thats part of there character .
I've bought the majority of my cameras from the FSU and apart from the long delivery times I've had no problems .
Paul
Standard negative film is cut already anyway unless I'm missing something
Yes, films have leaders already cut, but the bottom loading cameras need an extra long leader.
Hallo shadowfox! Bottom loading is a lot less trouble than you think! I dreaded it, but it really isn't so bad. Again, my experience with e-bay FSUs has been pretty good, particularly if you intend to get the camera serviced: they are old and could usually do with a good going over :)
As for cameras - I love FED 1s, but the Fed 2 is a wonderfully sound design and the Kievs have an passionate following, Neither of the latter should pose any problems. The Zorki 6 is perhaps the least eccentric of all the FSUs, with a swing rear door - it was in fact the basis for the Zenit SLR and is a thoroughly good camera, combining the Fed long-base RF with a elegant, modern Zorki design
Cheers, Ian
vanyagor
12-14-2006, 12:58
Yes, films have leaders already cut, but the bottom loading cameras need an extra long leader.
Hm. Could be. But I'm using my bottom loading fed 1 from 1937 with standard fim without cutting anything extra. (1 time film got stuck probably because I did not cut more, but on all other ocasions it worked fine)
shadowfox
12-14-2006, 14:02
Gas attack! you guys have pushed me over the edge! My interest has been more than piqued :)
I just won a bid for a clean looking Zorki 4 with Industar 50mm/3.5 (a bit slow lens compared to my Olympus SPn, but at least I can replace it).
Anybody likes Zorki 4? what are yer experiences and where to get it CLA'd (I live in Texas).
One of us! one of us!
The only people who don't like Zorki 4s are those who wear glasses, can't see all the viewfinder and are eaten up with insane jealousy. I wear glasses - I hate 'em!
The Zorki 4 is a very sound choice :).
Many people here habitually get cameras CLA'd by the much praised Oleg - incidentally, it's also often a good idea to get new shutter blinds...
This is Oleg - http://www.okvintagecamera.com/address.htm - but there have been recent reports of e-mail troubles....
Fedka, a respected camera dealer in the USA, has apparently started offering a similar service - http://www.fedka.com/catalog/default.php?cPath=48 - but i've not yet seen comments on this.
Cheers, Ian
One of us! one of us!
The only people who don't like Zorki 4s are those who wear glasses, can't see all the viewfinder and are eaten up with insane jealousy. I wear glasses - I hate 'em!
The Zorki 4 is a very sound choice :).
Many people here habitually get cameras CLA'd by the much praised Oleg - incidentally, it's also often a good idea to get new shutter blinds...
This is Oleg - http://www.okvintagecamera.com/address.htm - but there have been recent reports of e-mail troubles....
Cheers, Ian
I like my Zorki 4 but my Zorki 3 is more pretty.
I just did a purchase (Iskra) from Oleg a few days ago and the camera is very good, his email response were (mostly) prompt. He is in a different time zone after all. I'd go through him again without reservation. The mail arrived within a week and that's to a town in Australia.
With your Z4, I hope that it has the engraved shutter speeds. If it does not, take care with them as they will (eventually) wear off.
Was the take-up spool mentioned in your ebey ad?
FSU is FUN!
squinty though
David Murphy
12-14-2006, 18:36
I recently picked a Mir body on eBay for $20 -- it's pretty impressive for the money. The Mir is a Zorki 4 without slow shutter speeds. It is not as well made as a Leica, but its easier to load and certainly a serious effort at a camera. However, if you can afford a Voigtlander Bessa R (about $180 used, $250 new) that's the best starter RF in my opinion. It's easy and reliable with modern conveniences and it works well.
You poor SOB, the Z4 is a good choice, It was also my first FSU camera, then came the Fed 2, then the Kiev 4, then the Zorki 1, the Kiev II, Kiev III ...
Next thing you know you are looking at FKD's (http://www.dvdtechcameras.com/cameras/largc/3/3.htm)
It never ends...
But I'm using my bottom loading fed 1 from 1937 with standard fim without cutting anything extra
Hmm, that's interesting. I've always cut long leaders because "you're supposed to" - I might try without.
Industar 50mm/3.5 (a bit slow lens compared to my Olympus SPn, but at least I can replace it)
Try it before you replace it, and you might be pleasantly surprised - it's a good lens.
vanyagor
12-15-2006, 07:01
Hmm, that's interesting. I've always cut long leaders because "you're supposed to" - I might try without.
Be carefull though. I did run into problem onece when film would not engage. Might be because I did not cut it. On other ocasions it worked fine though.
Hi - Zorki 4 is an excellent choice. As enjoyable to handle as a Bessa R.
As to the film leader thing - I have tried without cutting a leader and no joy at all. It just wouldn't work.
I might be slightly worried that the film is going through the camera OK but losing bits of itself inside the camera. The reason for the extra leader is to get over tearing the film and having to fish bits out of the mechanisam.
shadowfox
12-15-2006, 09:35
Try it before you replace it, and you might be pleasantly surprised - it's a good lens.
I'm glad to hear this. I usually use faster lenses because of my photography style. I don't use flash and I often shoot b&w indoor in my church. That's why I'm worried that 3.5 may not be big enough aperture.
shadowfox
12-15-2006, 09:38
Hi - Zorki 4 is an excellent choice. As enjoyable to handle as a Bessa R.
As to the film leader thing - I have tried without cutting a leader and no joy at all. It just wouldn't work.
I might be slightly worried that the film is going through the camera OK but losing bits of itself inside the camera. The reason for the extra leader is to get over tearing the film and having to fish bits out of the mechanisam.
Hi lushd, are you referring to the Z4 (hah, the camera hasn't arrived yet, and I already have a pet name for it :) ) when you say that it sometimes "eat" the film? from other folks in this thread, I got the impression that you only need to make extra leader for bottom-loader cameras, not back-opening ones like Zorki 4.
wolves3012
12-15-2006, 12:36
Hi lushd, are you referring to the Z4 (hah, the camera hasn't arrived yet, and I already have a pet name for it :) ) when you say that it sometimes "eat" the film? from other folks in this thread, I got the impression that you only need to make extra leader for bottom-loader cameras, not back-opening ones like Zorki 4.
You're right, he wasn't referring to the Z4 when mentioning cutting film. The Z4 has a removeable back and doesn't require cutting film leaders. FSUs don't generally "eat films" but the bottom loaders are more of a problem for removing chippings if a film does lose fragments.
The Z4 is a great choice, it has a nice big bright finder. They usually have the Jupiter 8 lens, which is f/2 and a fine lens; you may find f/3.5 limiting for interior scenes. I think the consensus would be that one FSU leads to more, beware http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif
If the camera needs some tlc and you're adept with jewellers screwdrivers, do it yourself. It's not hard to pull a Z4 apart, clean, lube, adjust it and get it all working nicely - just needs some time to spare! I'm most of the way through DIY CLA article on the 4K, which I'll be posting soon for anyone interested...
Hi lushd, are you referring to the Z4 (hah, the camera hasn't arrived yet, and I already have a pet name for it :) ) when you say that it sometimes "eat" the film? from other folks in this thread, I got the impression that you only need to make extra leader for bottom-loader cameras, not back-opening ones like Zorki 4.
Hi
Sorry for being vague - yes I meant the bottom loaders eat film if you don't cut a leader. The Z4 will take it as supplied. I really hope you enjoy the Zorki - I started rangefinder photography with one and now I have two crates full!
Sylvaticus
12-15-2006, 17:06
As to the film leader thing - I have tried without cutting a leader and no joy at all. It just wouldn't work. ..... I might be slightly worried that the film is going through the camera OK but losing bits of itself inside the camera. The reason for the extra leader is to get over tearing the film and having to fish bits out of the mechanisam.
There is a classic check you can do on any film camera with a rewind knob - once the film is loaded, gently wind the rewind knob until it tightens, then it will rotate every time you wind on, showing that that the film is moving through the camera.
My first FED was a botom-loading 1, bought from a pawnbroker in 1958 (Russian seamen used to trade FEDs and Zorkis for local cash). Can't remember now who told me about cutting the longer film leader, but it wasn't difficult with a pair of scissors, start with a rounded corner between two sprocket holes then snip snip and your done. Never cut through a sprocket hole, that will leave a jagged edge that will catch inside the camera and tear the film.
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