View Full Version : In the market for new 35mm lens for M2.
leica M2 fan
11-06-2006, 20:31
I have a Jup-12 2.8 in the LTM mount and a Jup-12 for the Kiev mount. I feel I need something in the f2 category. My dilemma- should I go for the CV Ultron 1.7 or go for the f2 summicron directly. There is quite a dollar difference in the two, would the summicron give me that much more in enlargements up to 11 x 14 or is the CV as good as people claim and there would be negligible difference. This is a reference to the real world not the world of chart and target shooters. Any input as usual is welcomed. Am really excited to hear any and all comments. TIA :)
sebastel
11-06-2006, 21:40
have you noticed how small (= convenient for carrying around) the 4th version summicron is? as far as i can see, that is a good reason for this lens ... makes a very nice "all the time" combo with the M2.
cheers,
sebastian
this topic has been beaten to death but if it was me and I was on a budget the cv 35 pancake would be high on my list, if I was not tight on cash, a 35 asph summilux sounds fine to me. Of your picks the summicron is a known winner, but the cv 35 1.7 has had a lot of good talk around it. In the real world resolution isnt going to be the biggest problem, the signature of these two lenses is very different. Either you will love the high high super high contrast of cv lenses or you will prefer the subtle tones of the summicron, thats a matter of your opinion and I would buy on that basis rather then which one will give the best resolution.
The CV 35 f/1.7 is a pretty subtle lens -- not a "high high super high contrast" CV lens -- in case that makes any difference to you.
BillBingham2
11-07-2006, 05:08
Just for giggles, take a look at the CV 40/1.4. It handles like the 'cron, a bit bigger, but a lower cost option. The 35/1.7 does not handle the same (no finger tab). I have all three and would say if price is not an issue, go 'cron. If price is an issue, the 40/1.4. You will need to spend a few dollars to have the 40 to bring up the 35 frame lines, but shouldn't be more than $40 USD.
B2 (;->
Flyfisher Tom
11-07-2006, 05:44
Not considering the size difference, I'm sure the CV lenses are on par with the summicron.
The question you have to ask yourself is, after you buy the CV, will you still have Leica lust ? If so, it is false economy to buy against your personal nature. If you feel you might have Leica envy or lust later, buy the Leica and be done with it. If you feel like you can live with very comparable performance at a fraction of the price, then you have your answer.
On the question of size, the 4th summicron is simply a joy to use, incredibly compact compared to the CV.
good luck with your choice
triplefinger
11-07-2006, 06:20
I'm a fan of my ZM35/2, I also have a cron40-c which is very nice.
Benjamin Marks
11-07-2006, 06:27
No bad choices. I like the 35/1.7 - it is a capable performer and neither large nor unwieldy. You should be able to find it used for a very reasonable price. The Leica glass is all worth it. I shot a friend's wedding in 2000 with a Nikon F4 and 35/2 and a Leica M6 and 35/4th gen. The 11x14 prints showed a slight edge for the Leica . . . but slight. In my experience, there are lots of limiting factors in getting a good 11x14 print. Most enlargers, for instance, are not critically alligned, which can make a huge difference in getting the best out of a negative.
I'd echo what was said about the compact nature of the Leica 35/2 4th gen. However, that said, the lenses weigh about the same.
Good luck in your choice.
Ben
Post deleted by posters request
Hi, B2! I have been wanting to buy a CV 40 f/1.4, but its abilitiy to bring up the 50 framelines has deterred me from doing so. Could you please recommend a place that can do the modification (for $40) so that it brings up the 35 framelines? Thnx.
The CV Pancake II is an excellent lens, for people who are currently on a butter-and-jelly sandwich diet.:) However, for people, who are on a filet mignon diet, the aspherical Cron and Lux aspherical are IMHO good choices.
Flyfisher Tom
11-07-2006, 08:42
Bottom line is that the capabilities of CV, Zeiss, Konica and Leica lenses far surpasses the skills of most photographers to distinguish them.
And great photographers on this forum, like Todd Hanz and Beniliam (David), can make any lens look good, regardless of which lens they use ;)
Not considering the size difference, I'm sure the CV lenses are on par with the summicron.
The question you have to ask yourself is, after you buy the CV, will you still have Leica lust ? If so, it is false economy to buy against your personal nature. If you feel you might have Leica envy or lust later, buy the Leica and be done with it. If you feel like you can live with very comparable performance at a fraction of the price, then you have your answer.
On the question of size, the 4th summicron is simply a joy to use, incredibly compact compared to the CV.
good luck with your choice
Tom makes a very good point here. I started with the CV 35/1.7. Very nice lens. Then I picked up a 4th version 35 cron. Haven't used the CV since. The size and feel of the cron is just superior to me. Handles great, looks right on the camera, slides in and out of the case or my coat pocket so easily, the squarish hood is perfect, etc., etc.
As for the bokeh comments, I agree to an extent. The 4th 35 cron bokeh is good but not otherworldly as some as expressed. I have read that it's a bit better stopped down just slightly but I haven't carefully tested that theory. As for what I have experienced, here is a recent pic taken with my 4th version 35 cron mounted on my M6 and it shows less than heavenly bokeh. However, I would be very happy if all my pics came out as good. Bottom line is I am very happy with the 4th 35 cron and consider it one of the very last lenses I would ever sell. Of course, I am keeping the CV 35 if for no other reason than it's chrome which looks better on my M3 than does the black 35 cron! (I know, I know, vanity... :o )
-Randy
leica M2 fan
11-07-2006, 08:53
I appreciate all your comments.
Sharpf8- soon after posting the thought came to me about the CV 40mm, it will be under consideration.
Tom: There are so many fellow RFF photogs that do amazing work with lenses that might be "mediocre" to some. Add Frank S to this list, he does great work, too. Thanks again to all. :)
pvenables
11-07-2006, 09:11
Don't discount the Hexanon 35, or the 35 Biogon as already suggested. I would imagine either of these to be a match for the V4 Summicron. I do like mine because it's so small, but I don't doubt for a moment that if portability wasn't an issue I'd be perfectly happy with any modern 35 rangefinder lens.
Paul
Flyfisher Tom
11-07-2006, 09:13
... here is a recent pic taken with my 4th version 35 cron mounted on my M6 and it shows less than heavenly bokeh.
-Randy
Well, that goes to show how subjective this 'bokeh' concept is, I happen to think that is nice bokeh under those circumstances, in addition to being a very good photo :)
Unless you use slow film, and a tripod, 20x16" AgBr, and wider then F5.6 and no hood you wont see any (much) differences in the lenses.
So the choics is size, speed and £, and buy the best hood? The j12 aperature control can be impossible, the Leitz really easy, depends on your hand size and eyesight.
Noel
markinlondon
11-07-2006, 09:23
I've had the CV Ultron and PII Skopar. Now I have the 4th type 'cron. My 35 buying is done (sorry, Magus ;) ). The Ultron was great, but the Skopar gave me a taste for a smaller lens. The 'cron just fitted the bill and I didn't pay an extortionate price for my Solms version (although it took two goes :mad: ). It does all I could ask of a 35 and is fast enough.
leica M2 fan
11-07-2006, 09:28
Don't discount the Hexanon 35, or the 35 Biogon as already suggested. I would imagine either of these to be a match for the V4 Summicron. I do like mine because it's so small, but I don't doubt for a moment that if portability wasn't an issue I'd be perfectly happy with any modern 35 rangefinder lens.
Paul
So which of these lenses do you have? Or do you have both? I certainly would consider the Hexanon or the Biogon. I think Zeiss glass would be wonderful. I had a very nice Tessar lens for my Exacta VX lla back in the 60's and had really good pictures from it. Thanks.
Post deleted by posters request
Thanks for your kind words, M2fan!
My moderate wide angle needs are met by a Summaron f3.5, a J12, and a 40mm Rokkor-M.
Well, that goes to show how subjective this 'bokeh' concept is, I happen to think that is nice bokeh under those circumstances, in addition to being a very good photo :)
Yeah, I don't really consider this bad bokeh. Certainly not a "bright distracting donuts" type of bokeh. But to me it's also not "knock your socks off" bokeh (whatever that might be....:) ). And thanks for the nice comment on the pic itself.
-Randy
markinlondon
11-07-2006, 12:02
I find nothing wrong with the bokeh either, Randy. It's quite a difficult background for good bokeh. I've been meaning to say "nice avatar" too, btw.
leica M2 fan
11-07-2006, 12:17
That is a wonderful B&W photo, so sharp and lushious blacks, white, and gray tones. I can't see that one would see this picture and say " I can't stand it because the " bokeh " is not that great. The picture can stand by itself on its own merits.
Frank : I speak only the truth. :D
BillBingham2
11-07-2006, 12:34
Hi, B2! I have been wanting to buy a CV 40 f/1.4, but its abilitiy to bring up the 50 framelines has deterred me from doing so. Could you please recommend a place that can do the modification (for $40) so that it brings up the 35 framelines? Thnx.
I think Don over at www.DAGCamera.com should be able to do it for around that, plus shipping. Might try Sherry at www.sherrykrauter.com if you are closer to NY.
B2 (;->
BillBingham2
11-07-2006, 12:38
Another thought on where to get the 40 tweaked to bring up the 35mm frame lines. I bet if you ask Stephen (www.cameraquest.com) to have his repair guy/gal do it, you might save money and time on shipping?
Just a thought.
B2 (;->
Just wanted to say thanks to markinlondon and leica M2 fan for the nice comments. Interesting, Mark, that you would notice my avatar as I've noticed your's many times since I try (feebly) to play guitar as well.
-Randy
Must.. resist.. urge to give opinion..
Can't.. resist.. Damnit! Summicron 35/2 2nd-4th generation are all stupendous, especially the form factor. Frankly, bad blur can be emphasized by shooting into bad lighting anyways. The 4th gen cron 35 has a high and mighty reputation, but that may be because so many people swore by them BEFORE it achieved its high reputation. I found something quite interesting though, and Magus may find this interesting as well. I know someone who hates the latest (last 2 generations) 50 cron because he believes that they walked down the path to the dark side (optimized for colour photography), loves the 35/2 pre-asph 4th gen, refuses to use the 35/2 ASPH.. and get this.. thinks the Summilux 50 ASPH is the best 50 ever created.
We are not all created equal ;). I love the 4th gen 35 cron myself, as it is tiny and sharp. It truly is an outstanding lens, but that's perhaps because I hate printing from very very contrasty negatives. There's only so low grade paper, or contrast filter I can go before I can't go any lower! Anyways, a couple of shots from this marvelous lens: One showing not so nice bokeh, cause hey, **** happens.
These are very large images but, eh, I'm not holding back :p
http://tak.eacgac.ca/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/sm-hard-floor-emily.jpg
http://tak.eacgac.ca/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/sm-street-portrait-old-man-profile.jpg
Thanks, Crasis, for not holding back! Particularly since I so agree with your comments. And very nice shots, too!
-Randy
P.S. Can you tell me where you got those "film frame" borders from?
Thanks, Crasis, for not holding back! Particularly since I so agree with your comments. And very nice shots, too!
-Randy
P.S. Can you tell me where you got those "film frame" borders from?
Yeah, I get them from my negative carrier, which I filed down to give the full frame. Speaking of which, I need to buy another negative carrier so that I can file down a umm.. cleaner looking full frame border. This one is a touch messy :D
pvenables
11-07-2006, 13:11
Tony
I don't have the Hexanon or the Biogon 35. I have a V4 35 Summicron.
What I was trying to say was that if the dinkyness of the V4 Summicron wasn''t so attractive to me, I'm sure I'd be perfectly happy with the optical performance of these other two lenses. You might visit a friendly dealer to see if you can compare different lenses, and feel how they work on your M2.
Hope this helps and happy shooting, whichever lens you choose.
Paul
I think Don over at www.DAGCamera.com (http://www.DAGCamera.com) should be able to do it for around that, plus shipping. Might try Sherry at www.sherrykrauter.com (http://www.sherrykrauter.com) if you are closer to NY.
B2 (;->
Thank you, B2, for the information. I thought you knew of a place which has a fast-food-restaurant-type of service. Quick service, in other words. EssexCamera still has my Canon P, and it's been 3 weeks now. I am beginning to have butterflies in my stomach. :) I feel that 3 weeks or more of waiting is torture. :)
I will give Steve Choi (Culver City, CA) a call and see whether he has a fast-food type- of- service to modify a CV 40 /1.4 lens, so that 35 framelines are showing.
Cheers.
Flyfisher Tom
11-07-2006, 13:39
Crasis,
Both are excellent portraits.
I give up, where is the "dud"-like quality of this lens ? ;) All I see are great results.
Flyfisher Tom
11-07-2006, 13:55
Thank you, B2, for the information. I thought you knew of a place which has a fast-food-restaurant-type of service. Quick service, in other words. EssexCamera still has my Canon P, and it's been 3 weeks now. I am beginning to have butterflies in my stomach. :) I feel that 3 weeks or more of waiting is torture. :)
I will give Steve Choi (Culver City, CA) a call and see whether he has a fast-food type- of- service to modify a CV 40 /1.4 lens, so that 35 framelines are showing.
Cheers.
If you have steady hands, ice-cold nerves, here is a DIY thread with instructions and photos:
http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00CcwG
Fast food enough for you ;)
cheers
BillBingham2
11-07-2006, 13:56
There really is nothing to it, just grinding down a bit of a tab. The 35mm frame line come up with nothing is mounted on the camera. 50 is the mid way and 90 is all the way in. Only thing to watch for is which tab and make sure the grinding do not get into the lens. He might just unscrew the mount, grind it and then rescrew it on.
You don't need DAG or Sherry for this one. I just do not have anyone I trust for Leica gear more closer.
B2 (;->
... I know someone who hates the latest (last 2 generations) 50 cron because he believes that they walked down the path to the dark side (optimized for colour photography), loves the 35/2 pre-asph 4th gen, refuses to use the 35/2 ASPH.. and get this.. thinks the Summilux 50 ASPH is the best 50 ever created. ...
Crasis - Either you have the ability to read my mind, or you have a very smart friend. :D You have just described the anguish and rapture that I have experienced the last 6 months. The photos are very nice, as well.
Randy - your photo is excellent to my eye. It shows the marvelous tonal quality that one can achieve with that lens. I would love to see a print of it.
Magus - always good to have a spirited discussion with friends.
Crasis - Either you have the ability to read my mind, or you have a very smart friend. :D You have just described the anguish and rapture that I have experienced the last 6 months. The photos are very nice, as well.
I'm going to have an interesting time once my second M body gets here. The 35/2 pre-asph 4th on one body, the 50 cron tabbed on the second. Once I learn their relative strengths and weaknesses, I'll know when to use one and when to use the other to exploit their qualities. This is completely ignoring the fact that they're 2 different focal lengths. Just talking about their drawing abilities.
And yes, you should eat that for dinner.
Ciao :)
If you have steady hands, ice-cold nerves, here is a DIY thread with instructions and photos:
http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00CcwG
Fast food enough for you ;)
cheers
Flyfisher Tom: Unfortunately, I don't have steady hands nor ice-cold nerves, to do a DIY. :) Al Kaplan, of photo.net fame, has had advised many prospective and current owners of 40 mm lens on how to go about it. Experience tells me however, that there are times that a "project" is better done by a person, who knows what he or she is doing.;)
A solution I am eyeing at to solve my dilemma is for a peanut-butter-and-jelly- sandwich diet to save money for a 35 f/1.4 lens. :angel:
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