View Full Version : Fantastic Expectations Unrealized
AShearer
11-05-2006, 16:57
That's what much of this M8 debate seems to me. The expectations for what this camera would produce were, (in some cases) way too high. So much so as to be fantasy.
It's a digital capture device with a 10MP Kodak sensor in it. The main reason for it's being is to keep Leica in the game. The advantages would seem to be that one can use the superior Leica glass on a digital capture and the resultant benefits that brings vs. other glass; and the M form factor that we are so familiar and comfortable with.
Other than that, why would anyone think that Leica somehow magically could create a camera that would produce images far superior to other high end digital cameras with similar specs? Why? Based on what?
As to justifying the cost. How do you justify the cost of an MP or M7? There are great film cameras out there for much less. The Leica M costs what it costs, i.e. it is, what it is because of the manufacture process, the labor costs, the Leica brand etc. etc. . But, one cannot justify the cost against other digital cameras anymore than we can against other film cameras.
Although it is way too early to say, from what I've seen the Leica produces images about on par with other similar digital cameras. One glaring exception is the available lenses. Correct me if I am wrong, but nobody makes lenses for 35mm that perform like Leica lenses? They are expensive, but they are extremely good.
If there is a widespread banding problem, it will likely be fixed in the firmware similar to the Nikon D200.
So, it may be that we let our expectations get away from us with the anticipation of the M8?
Much of the grousing being thrown about is not well thought out and is not grounded in the reality of the technology that is available and can be put to use in the camera, by Leica or anyone else.
Well said! And for me - a camera I have been waiting for. Had it not been for this one in the pipeline the only alternative is the RD1.
I have the M8. The banding is real.
If there is a widespread banding problem, it will likely be fixed in the firmware similar to the Nikon D200.
So, it may be that we let our expectations get away from us with the anticipation of the M8?
Much of the grousing being thrown about is not well thought out and is not grounded in the reality of the technology that is available and can be put to use in the camera, by Leica or anyone else.
MCTuomey
11-05-2006, 18:25
The banding will be fixed, first through a firmware update, and more permanently through sensor modifications, that's my guess. Just like several of the Nikon and Canon digi bodies.
And as Alan said and Jaap implied, the M8 will end up being a fairly expensive way to capture light digitally through leica lenses and rangefinder handling - more than likely quite successfully. If the expectations are for something beyond this modest goal - some kind of raising of the bar for digi capture - then there'll be disappointment. Leica is behind the digi curve, not ahead of it. I agree with Alan. People who enjoy using leica equipment now have the digi capture option. That's excellent. But it will no doubt take time to see Leica's digital alternative efforts mature. Patience, everyone.
Mike
(user of digi gear now three generations old, or about 3.5 years)
My goodness, voices of sanity. The M8 will be everything it ever could be, a top rank digital camera in a rangefinder form. Everything seems good to go so far except for this banding thing.
And this too shall pass
Rex
I posted some comparison shots over at LUF showing how the banding gets worse at high ISOs. The bummer is that it is faint, but visible even at the lowest ISO. And this is not some extreme lighting situation. EV12 lights and EV4 background. Not like an arcwelder in a cave or something.
http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/8672-banding-some-more-tests-4.html
My only expectation was that the camera would work decently in some pretty ordinary situations. I would not characterize my expectations as 'fantastic', but more along the lines of practical. My three year old 3.2MP Canon point and shoot digital is able to handle situations that cause the M8 to band horribly. So outsize expectations? No. Expectation that Leica would release a product that could match a $200 point and shoot? Yeah, I guess I did expect that.
willie_901
11-05-2006, 19:56
. Everything seems good to go so far except for this banding thing.
Rex
What about the fringing (fringing and banding artifacts can arise from different sources)? The thermal noise. at ISO > 320 is underwhelming but pleasant.
Of course expectations are high. Why wouldn't expectations be high for a $5,000 camera?
The D200 banding issue wasn't fixed through firmware. It required sending the camera to Nikon for a hardware fix.
Murray
Nikon Bob
11-05-2006, 20:14
Thank you Alan Shearer.
Bob
Bob Ross
11-05-2006, 20:45
I have the M8. The banding is real.
Clay,
I'm curious if you processed your images in Capture one and if you tried the "Banding suppression" tool on the sharpening/NR control screen. The tool is there and I am wondering how good it might be for what we are seeing.
Bob
Much of the grousing being thrown about is not well thought out and is not grounded in the reality of the technology that is available and can be put to use in the camera, by Leica or anyone else.
I don't know that I'd call it grousing.
The first users are just now getting the new camera into their hands, pushing its limits, discovering issues that presumably Leica had not anticipated, and trying to document those issues as thoroughly as possible. I think that's a healthy process.
Remember when the R-D 1 firmware update came out, and suddenly its files were no longer opening in Adobe Camera Raw? That issue was discovered, quantified, submitted to Adobe (thanks, Sean!) and resolved in a matter of days thanks to this same process, and pretty much all of it happened right here on RFF.
IGMeanwell
11-05-2006, 21:03
Here is a release about the D200 banding
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0602/06021101nikond200banding.asp
However the way it is explained ... looks like its the type of problem that could easily be fixed with firmware
but hopefully Leica will offer to fix the problem at their expense
Yep, capture one pro. The banding tool does not appear to do much for this problem.
Clay,
I'm curious if you processed your images in Capture one and if you tried the "Banding suppression" tool on the sharpening/NR control screen. The tool is there and I am wondering how good it might be for what we are seeing.
Bob
AShearer
11-06-2006, 03:44
I don't know that I'd call it grousing.
The first users are just now getting the new camera into their hands, pushing its limits, discovering issues that presumably Leica had not anticipated, and trying to document those issues as thoroughly as possible. I think that's a healthy process..
I agree. There have been alot of reasoned posts about findings with the camera. I was really addressing the more outlandish trashing and sour grapes types.
I've seen the banding in posted shots. I suspect it is a real problem that needs to be addressed.
But, I have also seen shots posted here where the white balance was set wrongly for the light type, pushed to ISO 2500 under quartz lights and they don't look very good. But, the camera is not entirely responsible for that.
AShearer
11-06-2006, 03:52
I posted some comparison shots over at LUF showing how the banding gets worse at high ISOs. The bummer is that it is faint, but visible even at the lowest ISO. And this is not some extreme lighting situation. EV12 lights and EV4 background. Not like an arcwelder in a cave or something.
http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/8672-banding-some-more-tests-4.html
My only expectation was that the camera would work decently in some pretty ordinary situations. I would not characterize my expectations as 'fantastic', but more along the lines of practical. My three year old 3.2MP Canon point and shoot digital is able to handle situations that cause the M8 to band horribly. So outsize expectations? No. Expectation that Leica would release a product that could match a $200 point and shoot? Yeah, I guess I did expect that.
Clay: I totally agree. And as I said, if it's a widespread problem, I would expect Leica will fix it. We have every right to expect that.
I was really talking about people who have posted sour grapes type diatribes that assume this camera will somehow not have any technical limits or issues because it's from Leica and it costs so much.
AShearer
11-06-2006, 03:58
What about the fringing (fringing and banding artifacts can arise from different sources)? The thermal noise. at ISO > 320 is underwhelming but pleasant.
Of course expectations are high. Why wouldn't expectations be high for a $5,000 camera?
Again. I agree, but how high? Expectations should be very high, but realistic. There are a lot of very smart people making very well reasoned and thought out claims and findings about the camera.
But there is also a lot of nonsense being posted about how this camera should be perfect, beyond the limits, beyond reproach. "The images don't look any better than my 10mp DSLR etc." Well, why should they? Especially on a computer screen?
That's my point. I guess I didn't make it very clearly.
J. Borger
11-06-2006, 04:34
It's time to focus on the fantastic quality of the M8 files .... they by far EXCEEDED my (already very high) expectations.
These reported issues ... which are real (and i experienced them myself) .. are blown wide out of proportion.
In fact there is only one issue left that needs to be sorted out .. the banding/ bleeding. All other issues are related to the M8/ colorprofile firmware/ software and can be handled/ corrected easily in processing. So they will be fixed with a firmware update and or update of the Capture One M8 Profile.
The banding .. and times it occurs is of no concern to me because i take perhaps 1 or 2 of that type of pictures per year anyway!
So even if this is a compromise i have to accept .. i would not sent my M8 back or have reconsidered the purchase if i had knew everything in advance.
That said .. i am also convinced the banding/ bleeding will be dealt with!
The fact is, there's a reason they call these things bugs. The best most delicious meal is ruined if you find a bug in it. If I had found this banding thing with my $800 used Canon 20D (which I didn't, it's got no bugs) I would have instantly sent it back for a refund. I can't imagine myself accepting a $5000 Leica and waiting in faith for them to maybe come up with a fix. I would whisk it back to the dealer for a refund ASAP, and then when and if the bugs are fixed, take the plunge again. Warranties are good for random malfunctions. A system-wide glitch this (evidently) obvious should have been discovered and fixed before the sale. Just my IMHO. I'm not the early-adopter type, but I'm not being smug. I truly feel for the people who are having to deal with this and hope it in fact does get fixed.
Without early adopter's, problems would never get fully identified and sorted out. I understand why some folks don't want to be early adopter's of a new product and prefer to jump in the game after everything has been sorted out. However, the bottom line is that someone has to be first. Everybody, can't sit the game out until there is a winning score. To each his own. The M8 is a big ticket item and the decision to be an early adopter is not to be taken lightly (as with any other product).
That's one way to look at it, the one manufacturers would prefer :D Another way to look at it is, if early adopters all bagged their buggy cameras up and demanded refunds, then next time the company might make more sure they check things out ahead of releasing a product. Surely if half a dozen people find the same glitch the first day with the camera it couldn't have been that hard for Leica's techs to find in the months they've been working on the camera?
These reported issues ... which are real (and i experienced them myself) .. are blown wide out of proportion.
I think this comment from a user about sums it up. Drive your new car and have the workshop sort a few glitches or stand waiting beside the road for the AA to get your old one going is not much of a choice for me...
Maybe things are a little different in Europe but here the majority tendency is no longer to buy a car outright and keep it until it's on its last legs. Most new autos in the US are leased, for 2-4 years, and covered by mfr's warranties the entire time. So it comes down to some cars you drive off the dealer's lot and never look back other than for oil changes, and others you spend more time driving a loaner than your own car. We had German and/or Swedish cars for 20 years, and practically lived at the dealer's. We now have a Lexus and an Acura, both of them were 1st-year models, neither of them has needed any service other than routine maintenance, and dozens of people I've spoken with have had similar experiences. There is no guarantee you can't get a lemon with any brand, but some brands have much better records than others. Perhaps it's just a coincidence that the German brands fall into the less-reliable category and the Japanese into the more-reliable.
newyorkone
11-06-2006, 11:21
Maybe things are a little different in Europe but here the majority tendency is no longer to buy a car outright and keep it until it's on its last legs. Most new autos in the US are leased, for 2-4 years, and covered by mfr's warranties the entire time. So it comes down to some cars you drive off the dealer's lot and never look back other than for oil changes, and others you spend more time driving a loaner than your own car. We had German and/or Swedish cars for 20 years, and practically lived at the dealer's. We now have a Lexus and an Acura, both of them were 1st-year models, neither of them has needed any service other than routine maintenance, and dozens of people I've spoken with have had similar experiences. There is no guarantee you can't get a lemon with any brand, but some brands have much better records than others. Perhaps it's just a coincidence that the German brands fall into the less-reliable category and the Japanese into the more-reliable.
Just to continue this off-topic discussion.
It's just coincidence. Our family drove only Toyotas and they were NOT trouble free. Far from it.
Going on 4th year of German car ownership...nothing but regularly scheduled maintainance. There is no rule and this applies especiially to Japanese cars because they've built up a mythology about their reliability which is in large part the fault of consumer reports...one of the most flawed testing organizations ever created.
Very, very well put.
While this new camera is a Leica, it is still a digital camera. So while most on here will tweak, twist, post process, squeeze and prod digital images to get the special Leica glow and spend possibly hours doing it, I will use my M6 with great films, scan them if I need to and move on to the next great outing.
Digital has a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong way to go before it truly lives up to the standards of what I personally have exeperienced a Leica image is supposed to look like.
By the way, If I had this camera, took it out on a job and experienced the banding, I would be very upset and would return it right away. There is no way in heck I could live with that in my style of shooting. Part of the reason I even own Leica is so I CAN shoot with out reagrd to flare in most conditions.
I'm sure they will fix it, but wow! What an oversight.
That's what much of this M8 debate seems to me. The expectations for what this camera would produce were, (in some cases) way too high. So much so as to be fantasy.
It's a digital capture device with a 10MP Kodak sensor in it. The main reason for it's being is to keep Leica in the game. The advantages would seem to be that one can use the superior Leica glass on a digital capture and the resultant benefits that brings vs. other glass; and the M form factor that we are so familiar and comfortable with.
Other than that, why would anyone think that Leica somehow magically could create a camera that would produce images far superior to other high end digital cameras with similar specs? Why? Based on what?
As to justifying the cost. How do you justify the cost of an MP or M7? There are great film cameras out there for much less. The Leica M costs what it costs, i.e. it is, what it is because of the manufacture process, the labor costs, the Leica brand etc. etc. . But, one cannot justify the cost against other digital cameras anymore than we can against other film cameras.
Although it is way too early to say, from what I've seen the Leica produces images about on par with other similar digital cameras. One glaring exception is the available lenses. Correct me if I am wrong, but nobody makes lenses for 35mm that perform like Leica lenses? They are expensive, but they are extremely good.
If there is a widespread banding problem, it will likely be fixed in the firmware similar to the Nikon D200.
So, it may be that we let our expectations get away from us with the anticipation of the M8?
Much of the grousing being thrown about is not well thought out and is not grounded in the reality of the technology that is available and can be put to use in the camera, by Leica or anyone else.
Just to continue this off-topic discussion.
It's just coincidence. Our family drove only Toyotas and they were NOT trouble free. Far from it.
Going on 4th year of German car ownership...nothing but regularly scheduled maintainance. There is no rule and this applies especiially to Japanese cars because they've built up a mythology about their reliability which is in large part the fault of consumer reports...one of the most flawed testing organizations ever created.
Still OT: I drive a Jaguar, which allegedly has a bad reputation for reliabilty. Last two years it came up 2nd in that leading reliability tests- just behind Lexus, and in front of all the rest of the Japanese, Germans etc. Also no problems for me the two years I had it from new - so what value reputations?
Japanese cars because they've built up a mythology about their reliability which is in large part the fault of consumer reports...one of the most flawed testing organizations ever created.
Well if you don't believe reports from consumers what do you put your trust in, the manufacturers' TV ads? I'm sure there are plenty of people who have had trouble with their Japanese cars, I just wish even one of them lived on my street :(
Jaap: Jaguar got it's bad rep when it was self-owned. Since it got bought by Ford it's come a long, long way up--which was no accident, Ford knew they had to turn that around with real customer satisfaction, that if they relied on a loyal old-time customer base or snob appeal to sell the car they'd go straight down the tube. There's a lesson for Leica in there....
That's one way to look at it, the one manufacturers would prefer :D Another way to look at it is, if early adopters all bagged their buggy cameras up and demanded refunds, then next time the company might make more sure they check things out ahead of releasing a product. Surely if half a dozen people find the same glitch the first day with the camera it couldn't have been that hard for Leica's techs to find in the months they've been working on the camera?
You have to have the "early adopter" mentality to be an early adopter. I purchased the infamous RD1 knowing that there was a cetain risk involved. So because of that I have had over a year of pleasure possessing the worlds only digital rangefinder. Those that dithered don't have that pleasure.
So it is with the M8. So far the banding issue, while serious, isn't a show stopper for me. It looks like it would effect only a small percentage of the shots I take.
If you were always to wait for the perfect product to be released, you would be waiting forever. Better to have a bird in the hand than two in the bush.
Rex
Well if you don't believe reports from consumers what do you put your trust in, the manufacturers' TV ads? I'm sure there are plenty of people who have had trouble with their Japanese cars, I just wish even one of them lived on my street :(
Jaap: Jaguar got it's bad rep when it was self-owned. Since it got bought by Ford it's come a long, long way up--which was no accident, Ford knew they had to turn that around with real customer satisfaction, that if they relied on a loyal old-time customer base or snob appeal to sell the car they'd go straight down the tube. There's a lesson for Leica in there....
But I bought mine for snob-appeal :( :D:D
I shudder to think how much a fill-up on a Jag costs in the Netherlands. :eek: It must really be a case of "if you have to ask you can't afford it" :D
Another OT opinion... I drive a BMW convertible and I have never encountered any issue in 4 years of use.
Lexus are fine cars, just not great... :D
I shudder to think how much a fill-up on a Jag costs in the Netherlands. :eek: It must really be a case of "if you have to ask you can't afford it" :D
Diesel, my friend... 1.15 Euro a litre, 6.5 litres per 100 km.
Benjamin Marks
11-06-2006, 14:41
I desperately would like to say something pithy about the pace of change, the price of gear, the need for perfection, the understandable desire for customer satisfaction and the earliness of early adoption of new tech.
But -- the following ain't it:
There were similar posts in various fora after the M7 came out, and the RD-1 and the D200, if I recall. Since those moments, millions of great photos have been made by folks using new equipment. Manufacturing is an iterative process. Solms will get it right eventually, I think. They usually have.
Ben
IGMeanwell
11-06-2006, 14:42
Cars reliablility is 8 times out of 10 how you drive it, how you maintain it, and to a lesser degree how it was made.
I have one of the ******* children of the auto industry (1989 was the year of mergers and when alot of cars were 50% US and 50% Japanese), and 1989 Eagle summit LX I bought in 1997 (the beginning of my Junior year of highschool) for $1500. 9 years later I am still driving the thing (it has 167,000 on it). I have never had a major issue with it, I do all my own mechanics, and when I have had it die (battery or once an alternator) it has been in my driveway. I still drive it because it has been so reliable, I even took a road trip in 2003 with it totaling right around 4500 miles in 3 weeks. It still gets 34 mpg!
Point being if you looked at Motor Trend, Car and Driver, or even Consumer Reports ... it was reported as one of the worst cars of that year and yet it has been nothing but a great car for me.
How this translates to cameras, well pay what you want for your camera, however you'll find real expensive cameras that will fail (many times an anomaly) and sometimes you'll have a cheap camera that will withstand Armageddon .
It is a sad day when we learn that the new M8 didn't fulfill our hopes and expectancies.
My Leica lenses will have to make do with keeping on film for some more time. At least film will allow them their proper angle of view.
I'm sure they will fix it, but wow! What an oversight.
Surely never an oversight. This must have been a judgement call. Undermining a product launch; capitalising on the enthusiasm of the buying audience boosted by the very positive reviews, versus, a quick fix programme and a firmware fix.
Leica controlled the use of images for weeks in advance of the launch, controlled the issue of cameras to the reviewers and started shipping a little earlier than most expected. Very well managed product launch, so why would they ever miss this banding issue.
The reviewers never had a chance to raise the flag, because their samples didn't exhibit the banding - :confused:
Criticism - not at all, it's risk management. They are still in control and know how and when the fix will be in place. Leica would not go into a launch with a problem they didn't have the answer to.
Cars reliablility is 8 times out of 10 how you drive it, how you maintain it, and to a lesser degree how it was made.
Then every car I've owned has fallen into the 2 times out of 10 it did matter how it was made :mad:
Cars reliablility is 8 times out of 10 how you drive it, how you maintain it, and to a lesser degree how it was made.
reliability ratings of a car within the first few months of ownership has nothing to do with how it is maintained. It has everything to do with how the car was engineered and manufactured. No one can convince me that by average, a Range Rover is more reliable than a Toyota Landcruiser..
http://www.forbes.com/vehicles/2006/02/17/reliable-luxury-cars-cx_dl_0221feat_ls.html
The camera is a professional digital-camera like 1dsMarkII, D2X, Hasselblad, period.
But it's not a sports-camera, not a studio-camera, it delivers professional quality in a much smaller body.
Although it has the lowest physical resolution in this "professional class" the real resolution combined with the superior lenses is at least as good as the 12MP-systems, and in certain situations even the 16MP of the 1dsMarkII are not an advantage (lens quality).
Dynamic range, RAW-quality - it's all full MF-back quality (because the technology is pretty similar).
1600 and 3200ASA (1250-2500 - 1/3EV) are even noisier than Canon 5D (I wouldn't use them here too often, too) but 800ASA are about as good and 200-400ASA is just great. What C1 is able to capture without filtering (noise reduction = 0) is just amazing!
But two things are really unique:
Build-quality and lens-quality! You can use lenses like the 1,4/35Asph at open aperture with great quality up to the edges!
The 16-21mm allows you extreme WA with great sharpness over the whole image field (try that with 2kg, 9000$ MarkII + 17-40/16-35...).
It is not perfect, banding is just not necessary, But I have to say that the camera is fully usable under normal circumstances. I've made >100pics of Berlin's night-live and only one picture at 800ASA had visible banding.
They will solve the problem pretty quickly, like they always did.
What does Canon do against WA-vignetting, weak lens-perfomance? A firmware-update ? ;-)
A few impressions:
P.S. I've just noticed that the crop of the house is already heavily damaged by compressing - but I hope you get the Idea how the real pictures look like - not just small web-jpgs.
AShearer
11-06-2006, 15:52
Wow; There are some really good posts on this thread. For the record, I agree with the notion that a consistently reproduceable problem that affects this camera is not acceptable. And, if it turns out to be the case, and a whole bunch of people, and early adopters at that, return the cameras or complain loudly to the point where Leica has to service every one ala the D200 then this would be very bad for Leica. It boggles my mind that they could miss something like that. I just don't see it happening. But, I guess it happened to Nikon?
I return to my point that some, not all have jumped on the banding bandwagon to reinforce previously held opinions that amount to "see, I told you it was a POS", "see, it 's digital, it's no good" "it cost way too much" and similar rants.
I was really addressing the more outlandish trashing and sour grapes types.
You mean those who have no plan to ever buy one in the first place?
You mean those who have no plan to ever buy one in the first place?
No-he means those that condemn or even troll those that plan or want to buy one.
Those that have reasons not to buy one happily join in the discussion with mutual respect.
The problem is for Leica that they are a small company and not in a brilliant financial situation, so like it or not the M8 has been most likely been made on a comparatively small budget compared to a nikon, sony or canon DSLR. I always had a horrible feeling that early adopters may end up being unpaid beta testers. The real issue is how quickly Leica can fix any problems as they arise.
AShearer
11-07-2006, 04:03
You mean those who have no plan to ever buy one in the first place?
I'm sure they fall in all categories, buyers, non-buyers, pretenders, trolls. I'm certainly not being crticial of anyone who doesn't buy an M8, but comments on the product. As long as that comment is based in fact and grounded in reality.
The problem is for Leica that they are a small company and not in a brilliant financial situation, so like it or not the M8 has been most likely been made on a comparatively small budget compared to a nikon, sony or canon DSLR. I always had a horrible feeling that early adopters may end up being unpaid beta testers. The real issue is how quickly Leica can fix any problems as they arise.
If you go to the German Leica Forum you'll find, apart from the usual snappishness, feedback from posters who simply called the factory and asked. The solution is sure and close. Just imagine calling Canon, asking and getting a polite AND meaningful answer. The advantages of a small company.
Dammit - i'm getting really angry now!
I've LONG been in the queue to buy the M8, and i must say that i'm reading the many threads on the banding/streaking problem with a great deal of anxiety.
I STRONGLY object to the blind Leica fanatics making this issue into a question of 'loyalty' to the company.
Let's stick to the facts, shall we? And hope that there's a genuine solution to the problem.
Mark Norton
11-07-2006, 06:05
I'm more concerned about the green ghosts than I am about the banding. IMHO, they are separate problems and it's not clear to me they are both fixable in firmware.
The solution is sure and close. Just imagine calling Canon, asking and getting a polite AND meaningful answer. The advantages of a small company.
It'd be nice if the small company were not so small with a larger operating budget and these product flaws had never occured in the first place. Let's wait and see how this will be resolved. I'd love to own a used (and fixed) M8 some day.
If you go to the German Leica Forum you'll find, apart from the usual snappishness, feedback from posters who simply called the factory and asked. The solution is sure and close. Just imagine calling Canon, asking and getting a polite AND meaningful answer. The advantages of a small company.
I believe that Canon is run by a giant brain orbiting in space. But in all seriousness, I've spent far more money on canon equipment than other cameras but I've never really felt any great emotional attachment to them or their products. I could sell canon gear without missing a beat not so my RF gear. That is Leicas one asset - an almost illogical brand loyalty amongst its acolytes. However, they still need to win over younger photographers and I can't really see the M8 doing that. The digilux 3 may yet prove to be the more important product because it provides an entry into the world of leica although it too is about a third too expensive to give Leica market penetration.
Being a bit of a late adopter, technophobe might sum it up, it will be some time before I take to digital capture so I don’t really have an axe to grind at the moment, having said that it would be nice to have some idea what the present state of the art is.
As we stand with the Leica cheer-leaders on the one side and cynics on the other competing for attention it’s difficult to get an idea of the scale of the problem.
Now I don’t recall any of the reviews mentioning major ghosting or banding and they were presumably using identical firmware and sensors so is it just an extreme phenomenon that people have simply become alert to or is it in a big proportion of pictures? Is every camera effected, anybody not experiencing the problems?
willie_901
11-07-2006, 08:22
Mark,
The green ghosts are fascinating. They are always symmetrical and they have a phase (or frequency) shift as well. They have been observed with other digital sensors where the circuity is divided into two halves to double the data stream speed.
They could be due to yet another kind of aliasing.
It is more likely that the green ghosts arise from inadequate electronic isolation between the circuits for each side of the sensor. If the light intensity generates a signal voltage that exceeds the signal-suppression specification for isolation between the two circuits, then some information will leak from sensor half with the signal to the sensor half without the signal.
Some suppose the green ghosts are due to optical reflections. This might be true, but in this case I don't understand how the ghosts are green.
willie
"Now I don’t recall any of the reviews mentioning major ghosting or banding and they were presumably using identical firmware and sensors so is it just an extreme phenomenon that people have simply become alert to or is it in a big proportion of pictures?"
Leica-customers are perfectionists, they don't accept a quality standard that is accepted by customers of a D200, 5D or MarkII. All of them had flaws that were solved by firmware-updates - none of them was perfect from the beginning.
But that's exactly what Leica-customers expect.
I think Leica knew about the banding problem and stays in close contact to Kodak ISS, who makes the sensor and therefore the banding-problem. Maybe Kodak promised to solve that problem directly before introduction - but they didn't.
So Leica had to make a decision:
1. DMR-way, Waiting until even the firmware is near-perfect (I've handled perfectly working DMRs in September 2004, 8 months before they've reached the customer!)
2. Selling the M8 now and come up later with a firmware-update (like Canon or Nikon always did) while 99% of the photographers can enjoy the M8 the way it is now.
You can buy the M8 right now and you get a nice camera with one flaw that appears in extreme situations above 640ASA. Some people get into these situations quite often, they will get a quick and good solution from Leica.
You can buy the M8 right now and you get a nice camera with one flaw that appears in extreme situations above 640ASA.
Hope the person that posted this image doesn't mind me linking to it here (wouldn't surprise me if it gets taken down in the near future), but this sort of result would be unacceptable in a $100 P&S - under any circumstances:
http://www.pbase.com/tinamanley/image/69805095
Something is badly wrong with this sensor (and incidentally i say this with my order still in place).
Hope the person that posted this image doesn't mind me linking to it here (wouldn't surprise me if it gets taken down in the near future), but this sort of result would be unacceptable in a $100 P&S - under any circumstances:
http://www.pbase.com/tinamanley/image/69805095
Something is badly wrong with this sensor (and incidentally i say this with my order still in place).
Mani
Something IS wrong. Thats the first picture anything like that. Most of her other shots looked pretty good, but the ISO 2500 looked pretty groody. Most of the other 2500 ISO that I have seen looked a lot better. Could be a bad sample?
Rex
I think Tina might up turned up the levels in order to illustrate the banding better. Regardless, I've said it before and I'll say it again, skin tones in the M8 pics all have way much magenta tendencies, as you can see in this one.
Just to summarize (IMHO):
The banding is a serious issue. I am sure that Leica is working on it like crazy and fairly confident they'll fix it one way or another fairly soon. I'd be surprised if it doesn't reduce the initial rate of sales quite a bit, however. I'd really like one of these cameras, but I'm not going to spring for $5K until I'm sure it's resolved.
The excessive saturation (for some) is a non-issue. It can be fixed in PP workflow without sweat.
The skin tones issue should also be pretty easy to fix in PP without much effort.
The 8-bit DNG controversy is something I'd like to hear an authoritative response to, but judging from some of the images I've already seen, it's not a big worry. I'd like to know to what extent (if any) it limits PP flexibility, such as when fixing curves in shots with a high contrast range.
@mani
This picture is nothing but a bad joke. I don't shoot people very often, but some I did for testing and skin tones were fine, the only thing that needed correction was WB.
This little shot was made at 800ASA with manual WB-correction (mixture of candle-light and sunlight from the window) and the skin in reality looked EXACTLY like that!
AShearer
11-08-2006, 15:52
Well my M8 arrives tomorrow according to UPS. So, I will see for myelf. It does certainly appear that there are some issues with image anomolies. I hope that either, it's limited to a few cameras or Leica comes out quickly with a fix. I will not shoot around it, if it's exhibited in my camera and no fix is forthcoming, It will go back. OTOH, I am not unimpressed by many of the shots I've seen so far, as some have said they were. I think they look as expected, (banding shots excepted of course). There have not been many really good photographs, but certainly some.
I am not blindly loyal to any company. I expect Leica to handle this correctly, as did other companies when it happened to them. I have no reason to think they won't so I am remaining calm about it for now.
Perhaps, I'll kill this thread, which has had more views than any other up currently. But, I will reiterate my belief that many people have held out expectations for this camera that were just not justifiable. Enough said.
This is following the same pattern as the Nikon D200 "banding" issue.
First of all, it doesn't look like "banding". My feeling is that it has something to do with light reflections on rear lens surfaces and the anti-alias filter (or lack of it).
In any case, some early D200 adopters went into panic mode and thousands upon thousands of obsessive posts were made over it, with some people crazily shooting light bulbs and pinpoint light sources to try to duplicate it.
The problem was fixed, and if it wasn't for the "internet effect" that multiplied the tiny problem into something of epic proportions, I seriously doubt that 99% of users would ever have noticed the "problem".
This is something that will in all liklihood be quickly fixed by Leica in the coming months. It's not a deal killer. You shouldn't kill the golden goose by obsessing over it and blowing up something that shows up in a small number of shots into an accusation of a gigantic design flaw.
I think everyone should be thrilled that Leica has developed such a camera. It will infuse money into the company and provide improved models in the future.
I love my Epson R-D1 with all it's faults. I love placing a 1950's lens on a modern digital camera and taking astonishingly good pictures.
I hope Zeiss and other companies jump on the bandwagon and make more M-mount digitals.
If I had found this banding thing with my $800 used Canon 20D (which I didn't, it's got no bugs) I would have instantly sent it back for a refund. I can't imagine myself accepting a $5000 Leica and waiting in faith for them to maybe come up with a fix. I would whisk it back to the dealer for a refund ASAP, and then when and if the bugs are fixed, take the plunge again. Warranties are good for random malfunctions.
Every DSLR that I've owned from Nikon and Canon have had BUGS that required fixes if they were fixed at all. My first D1 Nikon had a common error in the first run of cameras. It would revert back frol English to Japanese menues. Also Color was red in skin tones, very red and was never fixed. The camera had to go back to Nikon for firmware updates. My D1X had a firmware bug and the fix had a bug and had to be sent back the same week it was returned from the first fix. Now I use Canon and the firmware can be loaded in the field. I think my 1Ds, 1DsII and 20D have all had multiple firmware fixes for various problems. If I remember correctly my 1D never had a fix during the time I owned one.
Fixes have ranged from banding to color fixes and compatibility with various cards. In the early days of the 1DsII images would be lost on the card at random due to a firmware issue between cards and camera.
Don't get out of sorts about a $5000 camera having bugs, even my $25,000 Fuji scanner has had firmware fixes. It's just a fact of life that you better get used to.
Oh yes, don't forget that lovely Kodak FF DSLR the 14N. It went through many many firmware updates and then Kodak deceided it could not be fixed so they introduced another camera that was suposed to be fixed but had another set of problems in itself. Finally Kodak junked the entire camera along with their MF back. They left all their customers hanging with a real piece of junk with no fix. So don't feel bad about the MINOR issues with the M8.
Gabriel M.A.
11-08-2006, 17:46
That's what much of this M8 debate seems to me.
Dialogues with one really loud voice usually offer only one point of view. But that's the illusion. Or is it?
IGMeanwell
11-08-2006, 19:01
Yeah ... even the seemingly perfect D50 (in my eyes) had a viewfinder issue where it was 2 degrees off axis
In fact my D50 still has the problem, but I use it so much (I compensate) that I couldn't bare letting it go for 3-6 weeks
I was waiting until I upgraded before I do send it to Nikon... that being said its still one of the best cameras I have ever owned
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