Hands On Experience of the Leica M8 at NYC Photo Expo... Image Intensive!!

[haagen_dazs]

Hi everyone.
My first contribution to the M8 forum.
There are alot of reviews on how the camera is etc etc :)
I wont go into that.
I am just going to post real world examples for all of you.
I was just testing to see how the camera would work for me
Please feel free to comment!
Here goes!

1) M8 is a beauty. Simply brilliant. Lovely to hold. Just lovely. I know someday I will want to own one too! Somehow the black is sleek but the chrome gave it a pleasant character.. commanding.. respectful.. tradition..

2) ISO TESTS
My real world tests
All taken at f2 with the Rokkor-M 40mm. no filter
I noticed that anything about ISO 640 is unacceptable (that is 1250 and 2500.. geez 2500 is crap). This is especially since I am so used to all the pro canon Dslr bodies. But if you like fake grain, this might work for you...
320 - excellent. 640 - good, anything above ... needs some noise reduc. software
Focus point on the letters "Mac"

ISO 320
http://www.markpangphotography.com/LeicaM8/M8cron40iso320full.jpg
http://www.markpangphotography.com/LeicaM8/M8cron40iso320crop.jpg


ISO 640
http://www.markpangphotography.com/LeicaM8/M8cron40iso640full.jpg
http://www.markpangphotography.com/LeicaM8/M8cron40iso640crop.jpg


ISO 1250
http://www.markpangphotography.com/LeicaM8/M8cron40iso1250full.jpg
http://www.markpangphotography.com/LeicaM8/M8cron40iso1250crop.jpg


ISO 2500
http://www.markpangphotography.com/LeicaM8/M8cron40iso2500full.jpg
http://www.markpangphotography.com/LeicaM8/M8cron40iso2500crop.jpg\

[haagen_dazs]

3)Additional samples

ISO 320 - non crop and crop version
Rokkor 40mm f2.0 no filter
beautiful rendering of the Red. Very crisp and sharp. Hope that is because my lens is good lol :)
http://www.markpangphotography.com/LeicaM8/M8cron40iso320sampleimagefull.jpg
http://www.markpangphotography.com/LeicaM8/M8cron40iso320sampleimagecrop.jpg



ISO 1250 - non crop and crop version
Rokkor 40mm f2.0 no filter
check out the DEEP scratches on the demo M8 !!:eek: Maybe it might be sold for half :angel: price!
http://www.markpangphotography.com/LeicaM8/M8cron40iso1250sampleimagefull.jpg
http://www.markpangphotography.com/LeicaM8/M8cron40iso1250sampleimagecrop.jpg

CV 15mm f5.6 or 8.0 no filter focus to infinity
ISO 320- - non crop and crop version
http://www.markpangphotography.com/LeicaM8/M8cv15iso320samplefull.jpg
http://www.markpangphotography.com/LeicaM8/M8cv15iso320samplecrop.jpg

[haagen_dazs]

forgot to mentioned. all JPEG FINE straight from M8, no pp

[haagen_dazs]

for the LIFE OF ME, i have no idea NO IDEA!!!!!!!!
why there are light streaks in my photos.

I shot my images into direct light sources and this has occurred.

When i shot general images such as this posted....there are NO problems!

I hope i didn't buy a crappy 40mm...this happened
Perhaps someone can add comments ...
http://www.markpangphotography.com/LeicaM8/M8testshot.jpg

What in the world is going on ???
Sensor PROBLEM????????????????????????

CV 15mm ISO 1250

http://www.markpangphotography.com/LeicaM8/M8streaks.jpg

[rvaubel]

for the LIFE OF ME, i have no idea NO IDEA!!!!!!!!
why there are light streaks in my photos.

I shot my images into direct light sources and this has occurred.

When i shot general images such as this posted....there are NO problems!

I hope i didn't buy a crappy 40mm...this happened
Perhaps someone can add comments ...
http://www.markpangphotography.com/LeicaM8/M8testshot.jpg

What in the world is going on ???
Sensor PROBLEM????????????????????????

CV 15mm ISO 1250

http://www.markpangphotography.com/LeicaM8/M8streaks.jpg

HAAGEN_DAAZ

Welcome to the wonderful world of banding. It is ironic indeed that the very enviroment that induces the M8 to band, is a Photo Trade show!! It's those blown overhead lights that cause the problem. It's interesting to note that the 15mm Heliar seems to exaggerate the problem the most.

Rex

[haagen_dazs]

HAAGEN_DAAZ

Welcome to the wonderful world of banding.

Rex
Rex
I do know what banding is. :) BUT it should only show itself in extreme situations such as taking a dslr image iso 3200 or 6400... even then the bands are subtle...look at M8 iso320 image... there are streaks there!
argh
bad bad bad.

[rvaubel]

Rex
I do know what banding is. :) BUT it should only show itself in extreme situations such as taking a dslr image iso 3200 or 6400... even then the bands are subtle...look at M8 iso320 image... there are streaks there!
argh
bad bad bad.

You sound like you have missed todays thread about banding of the M8. Don't freak out too much, but there is a problem. It's not as bad as it may seem. I would mix myself a stiff drink and review the banding threads on the various forums.

If its any consalation, I'm still #5 with my dealer and staying put.

Rex

[haagen_dazs]

yup i missed a bit of it.. caught up on it..
well enjoy your digital M :)

[ywenz]

Wow, that banding is very odd. It would not happen in most other digital cameras. Certainly not in my 20D or GRD..

[iml]

So far, all I'm seeing is banding and fringing. I wish somebody would start posting some ordinary day to day pictures in the gallery rather than test shots, so we can see how much of a problem there really is likely to be in normal use. Not that I'm ever likely to buy an M8, but I'm curious.

Ian

[rover]

Mark, how did you like the show? I am glad you had an SD card with you, I should have suggested it in the other thread. I walked away and wishing I had one with me was the first thing I thought of.

[Nachkebia]

Could it possibly be that lens was dirty? man that banding is hardcore :)

[mountainrivera]

That was interesting. Nice work Mark!

[neelin]

is this the bright light reflecting off the individual sensor lenses to the next sensor because of the oblique, intense light hitting the sensor?

a bit of 3M photo matt spray on the sensor would reduce the offendiing reflections & get rid of the banding (alas, might get rid of the rest of your image too).

robert

[haagen_dazs]

I wish somebody would start posting some ordinary day to day pictures in the gallery rather than test shots,

Ian
I beg to differ. I think these ARE ordinary photos taken .. Photos that you or I or anybody would have taken.
These are not test shots.
I define test shots as shooting gridlines and colourchecker cards.
This was a real world situation test.

[haagen_dazs]

Mark, how did you like the show? I am glad you had an SD card with you, I should have suggested it in the other thread. I walked away and wishing I had one with me was the first thing I thought of.
Suberb.
I think went gaga over the Canon 50 f1.2 L ...mainly because after using it, I know i will be getting one :D
Free film from Kodak was fun too!
yup cards were important. I had them to test the Canon cameras and M8 :)

[haagen_dazs]

Could it possibly be that lens was dirty? man that banding is hardcore :)
Both my lenses were uber clean and mint. This happened to other people's cameras too!
I should have tested with the ASPH glass...Alas I just didnt do that

[iml]

I beg to differ. I think these ARE ordinary photos taken .. Photos that you or I or anybody would have taken.
These are not test shots.
I define test shots as shooting gridlines and colourchecker cards.
This was a real world situation test.

Well, I almost never shoot expo lighting rigs :-)

Seriously, most of my photography is natural light, outdoors. I'm curious as to how easy it is to get fringing and/or banding artifacts under those conditions, and I'm sure this goes for others too.

Ian

[rvaubel]

Well, I almost never shoot expo lighting rigs :-)

Seriously, most of my photography is natural light, outdoors. I'm curious as to how easy it is to get fringing and/or banding artifacts under those conditions, and I'm sure this goes for others too.

Ian

I have been a prodigous collector of both JPEG and RAW images shot with the M8 every since Photokina. I, and no one else, ever noticed anything amiss with regards to banding. Looking backs now, I see that the problem was always there even for the older version of the software, version 1.04. But it seemed to be a minor issue with the older software. I have some Photokina JPEGs (full size) shot at ISO 1250 that, although banded, are really just fine. Noise levels are fine also.

I wonder if the beta testers have older images that they can look at to determine if the software has anything to do with it?

Rex

[John Camp]

These are good examples of what I was talking about in another post -- that the banding only happens when there is lots of over-exposure. You'll notice in these examples that most are exposed for the beams (which are very dark) and bring them out nicely; you actually see the black-on-black detail. In a typical shot, with typical DR, you wouldn't hold the beams. If you open up enough get the beams, then the lights (which are extremely bright -- meant to illuminate from a ~ 30-foot ceiling) are way, way, way over-exposed.

No sensor, including film, could hold this range of illumination; how they react is something else.

JC

[shutterflower]

So far, I am unimpressed by this camera.

[Laurence]

So far, I am unimpressed by this camera.

Yes, I have been "underwhelmed" so far.

I certainly DO hope that there is eventually some good representations of the "real world" shots, from the likes of our own RFF members who start posting their shots.

And, I certainly DO hope that, for the sake of whoever buys the M8, that there is something that truly shows the "cut above" that seems to be anticipated.

But yeah...I'm not exactly jumping up and down yet with regards to price against quality images. I hope that changes.

[MarcoS]

That heavy banding is unacceptable, period.

[jobo]

for the LIFE OF ME, i have no idea NO IDEA!!!!!!!!
why there are light streaks in my photos.

What in the world is going on ???
Sensor PROBLEM????????????????????????
Sensor blooming due to over exposure:
http://www.olympusmicro.com/primer/digitalimaging/concepts/blooming.html

Can't remember seeing it on any digital camera I have had, but I rarely took pictures into strong light sources.

2c, /J

[trev2401]

i hope AG does something about this...

and for 5$k a pop, they'd better :mad:

[Innerimager]

here's my example from the Photo Plus show yesterday. While the lights are blown, the exposure is not extreme, and is appropriate for the people in the image. This is a lot of magenta streaking, way too much. Otherwise I absolutely loved the feel of this camera....Peter
http://upload.pbase.com/image/69703901/original.jpg

[ywenz]

So far, I am unimpressed by this camera.

In addition to the the banding, the highlight bloom on the wooden display wall is pathetic. It is very reminisce of how a cell phone camera would handle blown highlights...

Although I would still like to buy the M8 if the price was lower. If it was a ~$2000 camera, I would live with its shortcomings, just like how I'm living with my GRD's shortcomings..

Innerimager: WOW that example is HORRIBLE. The WB is horrible too.. everyone looks magenta. I see how why Leica was so uptight a out releaseing pictures from photokina... Looks like their last minute firmware hacking could not resolve this banding issue. After seeing that image.. I would lower the buy-in price of the M8 to about $800. But if I found a good RD-1 for $1200, I would take that over the M8..

[IGMeanwell]

I predict a firmware update in about a week ... you know this banding issue is all over the place (meaning forums and such)

[Innerimager]

The WB isn't a problem for me as I assume horrid auto WB on any digital camera in these mixed artificial light conditions. I would always do a custom in camera or adjust Raw images. But the streaks, well that's a concern and would not correct so easily to say the least....Peter

In addition to the the banding, the highlight bloom on the wooden display wall is pathetic. It is very reminisce of how a cell phone camera would handle blown highlights...

Although I would still like to buy the M8 if the price was lower. If it was a ~$2000 camera, I would live with its shortcomings, just like how I'm living with my GRD's shortcomings..

Innerimager: WOW that example is HORRIBLE. The WB is horrible too.. everyone looks magenta. I see how why Leica was so uptight a out releaseing pictures from photokina... Looks like their last minute firmware hacking could not resolve this banding issue. After seeing that image.. I would lower the buy-in price of the M8 to about $800. But if I found a good RD-1 for $1200, I would take that over the M8..

[ywenz]

I hope Leica can fix the banding issue. But wouldn't they have already found out about it before the release?... Thus, I don't think this banding issue can be resolved. It is what it is - A flawed image taking product.

[IGMeanwell]

If Nikon can fix the D200 ... Leica can fix the M8 even if it means outsourcing to fix it... they would lose more money ignoring it

[ywenz]

the D200 banding problem was much less noticeble than this...

http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/d200-banding.htm

The 5D also had banding problem that was attributed to interference from the lens' AF motor. Again, it was also very subttle...

The baninding on the M8 looks like the lens was dirty!

[IGMeanwell]

Well the other issue; this sensor is a Kodak ... Kodak can't afford something like this to happen

so believe me... there will be something done about this fast

[willie_901]

As ywenz observed, the D200 banding problem is nothing compared this.

What is really interesting is: the banding problem is so notable, no one in this thread has commented on the thermal noise in the high ISO shots.

Only one person noticed the fringing seems over the top (the ISO 640 crop for instance).

Most interesting of all is the Canon ISO 320 full-frame shot has no banding or fringing.

One of the early M8 shot on the Web was a restaurant in California, The shot was taken in bright daylight. At the bottom of frame the chrome trim on a Honda parked in front of the restaurant also showed strong fringing. I down loaded this photo's DNR file and found that the De-Noise slider in Adobe Lightroom 4.1 was very good at killing the fringing

It would be interesting to see some shots with bright lights taken using metered exposure, 1 and 2 stops underexposed.

I kind of like the ISO 640 thermal noise. It reminds me of film grain. The ISO 1250 shot reminds a lot of the grain in Fuji S-1600 135 film.