View Full Version : I think I have been had!! Customs Duty!
jesse1dog
11-03-2006, 03:03
Been expecting my IIIa for a few days now. Looked a good deal on eBay and the price was a good one. Seller in the States and a 'good' guy. No hassle over payment and good communication.
Got a letter this morning demanding VAT payment by HM Revenue & Customs.
To add insult to perceived injury, also a demand from Parcelforce for £8 Clearance Fee.
I'm NOT a happy bunny at all! :bang:
Is this experience of buying a 50+ year old camera from an overseas non EU buyer typical of other people's experience? Perhaps Ive just been unlucky this time round!
Do I appeal to Customs, and am I likely to be successful?
What basis can I use?
Also if I send a camera to Oleg for a CLA I suppose I can expect VAT on his charges. Has this been other's experience?
You're lucky:eek: :bang: , had he sent it by UPS you'd have to pay hefty handling charges there as well:mad: :mad:
yeap, I try not to order from other countries unless its under 35 euros. I paid 25 percent for customs when I got my CV35 lens from canada. That hurt.
You're lucky:eek: :bang: , had he sent it by UPS you'd have to pay hefty handling charges there as well:mad: :mad:
£8 IS hefty!! That's 8 cans from the off-license, or 2 and a half pints in the pub!!!
markinlondon
11-03-2006, 03:39
You can expect to be charged 6% or 8% plus 17.5% VAT on any import from outside the EU. Sometimes you get lucky and the C&E tend not to charge on items under about US$50 value. I've been charged for CD orders before now. Interestingly, this is how 7dayshop works. They use a loophole where VAT is exempt on imports under £18 and split their orders accodingly so each shipment is under the magic sum. The Parcelfarce fee is just their own invention.
Join the club--I get hit w/ a 20% import tax sometimes by the Korean government; however, they are not very efficient.......and tax evasion of all kinds is rampant here.
Koreans ask the ebay seller to put "gift" on the customs declaration form and it works. I have no idea whether the "Queen's" tax slueths would be wise to that or not.
Terry Astor
11-03-2006, 04:02
That is very peculiar, the customs asking VAT on a used and very old item. I assume you are a UK resident, and I also assume there was an invoice from the seller acompanying the parcel, on the value of which VAT at 17.5% would be based. The clearance charge is actually quite reasonable. My only personal experience, from the mid 80's is a very happy one, in view of yours. I bought from a NY based dealer, by credit card on the 'phone, two rather special and fairly rare lenses: an Elmarit R 28/f2.8 and an Elmar R 180/f4, both in khaki (Safari) livery. The lenses were absolutely and totally new, with guarantees etc enclosed, and left the dealer with the boxes still sealed! They were sent by US Mail parcel post -no courrier! They reached me 4 days later, the boxes carefully opened by the the UK's Mail customs department, but the lenses had not been taken out or unwrapped from their original cellophanes. The invoice, totalling something like US$750 was inside the package, together with a note from the post office with "...apologies for opening the packs, which is a routine procedure..." Strictly speaking, as the goods were new, and were so described in the invoice, I should have to pay not only VAT but import duty as well, which I did not. I was puzzled at the time and thought I might have "escaped" from duties because the goods were marked all over as "Made in Germany", ie in the EU. No clearance charges either! I feel sorry for your experience but I only hope you are compensated by a long and satisfactory camera user relationship!
Regards
Terry
It's the same stuff with sending items from USA to Germany.
Before 2005 German most cheapo "GLS" was carrying out the most expensive USA shipments. That means the first 5000km took 2 days and the last 50km additional 2 weeks, plus they added an invoice for "handling fee" for bad service which I never paid, just the customs fee. Drivers unable to read or speak German or English, I have to add, and Saturdays no service at all.
Now the usual way is "DHL" or German Post. They don't charge fees in addition to customs and sometimes it is even free of customs (if the box is small? Unforeseeable). Sometimes they do the clearing and you pay at your home-door or Post office when taking it, sometimes you need to go to your customs office (in my case, 25km off). Depends on how well an item is described (if any) and how good the particular customs officer is willing to read English. They charge about 22% of the total (sometimes including the shipment costs, sometimes not, unforeseeable) and the procedure takes half an hour (friendly officers though).
Once I get a hat from Australia it took 20 minutes to search for the right customs number because there was no declaration whether the hat was made of felt, cotton, or fell (and of which animal).
When I get a camera they want to know which format, roll or flat film. When I get a lens the customs depends on focal length (but independent of format).
Therefore when they are involved, this adds 2-4 weeks to the shipment, and no status (online tracking) is available.
No problems with cheap items (about 50 USD) sended as Air parcel. They arrive very fast. My experience: the more expensive and fast the shipment, the longer it takes at customs.
cheers Frank
jesse1dog
11-03-2006, 04:53
Well, at least I'm not the only one being charged VAT!
I will wait until the camera arrives, and then ring the Customs, to see if I can find out what is and is not duty free for old cameras made in Germany - I like that point.
Paying the duty was an interesting exercise - all done with an automated service, no human involved!. And, the letter demanding duty only had the automated service telephone number. I suppose among the options there might have been one directing me to a human, and I just missed it!
I'm promised a Monday delivery - I refused to pay £12 extra for one for tomorrow Saturday!!
I'll let folks know if I make any progress.
darkkavenger
11-03-2006, 05:06
I paid VAT to the czech customs office when I received the Contax-III I bought in Canada from our fellow an esteemed friend FrankS. The VAT is collected by the post office where you go pickup the parcel here. Anyway, the deal was as smooth as possible :) As soon as a value is declared on a parcel that doesn't comes from within the EU, the country where the parcel is delivered can claim import taxes.
I once refused a deal on a good lens because it had to come from the States. It seems in Belgium, if they open the package, taxes would be around 25%. Most of the time, customs doesn't care, but when they do, it's expensive. I'm limiting all my online purchases to EU only.
Peter.
I live in Finland. And i also try to buy the stuff inside EU, if available.
I always have to pay VAT+customs. In total about 27%. What really bugs me is that i pay these charges also for the shipping cost. And even more amazingly i even pay VAT for customs charges as well :eek: It doesn´t matter anything if the stuff is new, old, broken, anything. Crazy.
Niko
Mmm customs..
I'm in the process of claiming back 2nd VAT for my scanner from the Norwegian customs. It was dead on arrival, got sent back to the shop who spent 2 months "checking" in and sent me relpacement. Of course, forgetting to mark it as such, so it's not customs' fault.
The most outrageous case was back in Belarus. Not only I had to get to the customs warehouse at airport well oustide the city, spend half a day in commute and queues, but they also wanted $30-something import fee for and $9 book sent me as a present. Really annoying.
My experience when buying my Leica IIIa from the states is to get it shipped by usps priority airmail, it is insured, reached France in two long weeks, but I never had to pay taxes even if the seller declares the good and their value. I also bought a new US telecaster neck (for an electric guitar) and had it shipped via priority airmail, same no taxe at all. My experience is that express shipping methods DO charge all the taxes...
if I send a camera to Oleg for a CLA I suppose I can expect VAT on his charges. Has this been other's experience?
I'd say that's extremely unlikely, Jesse. It's never happened to me and I've had at least 10 transactions with Oleg and dozens with the FSU. The Royal Mail seem to home in on packages from the States, ignoring those from points east (including China, IME). I can only echo earlier remarks and wish that some of our American friends would not include postage in the stated value of the goods....
Cheers, Ian
clintock
11-03-2006, 07:47
Do you guys vote to be taxed like that, or do you still have a king or something? I suppose with high Value Added Taxes, you have no income tax, so there's an up side.
I like to call lenses and bodies, 'used camera repair parts', not a lie, neither can be considered a camera, I suppose repair parts may not get zapped with the tax, I don't know.
LOL no income tax?!!?!??!
We have a king, but he doesn't decide all this: he only signs what parliament passes. "Still have a king", therefore, is a rather silly cliché.
Our income tax is around 50%, VAT is the EU standard and then there's the import taxes. What we do not have is taxes on capital increase, i.e. if I buy stock at €1 and sell it at €1000 then I only pay VAT on the transaction fees. Also, I just quit work for a 2 year sabbatical with a "sabbatical leave" from the government. Those 2 benefits have over the years more than made up for all weird import taxes on cameras etc. In any case, if I buy my second hand gear in the EU, I avoid those taxes anyway. There's big enough a market over here, sometimes I just need to be a bit more patient for the exact item I want to pop up.
Peter.
jesse1dog
11-03-2006, 08:07
Do you guys vote to be taxed like that, or do you still have a king or something? I suppose with high Value Added Taxes, you have no income tax, so there's an up side.
I like to call lenses and bodies, 'used camera repair parts', not a lie, neither can be considered a camera, I suppose repair parts may not get zapped with the tax, I don't know.
Don't get me on about Income Tax. I've already had to argue with the Tax Office over various allowances. How come I could get the right interpretation from their guidance notes, and they couldn't? Managed to save £225 with that battle - only took a couple of hours!
I like the idea of trying to tell Customs they charged me for 'used camera repair parts'. I'll try the 50+ year old idea, and the idea that they were made in a country in the EU. Be interesting to see what they say on Monday - if the 'repair parts' arrive then!
jesse1dog
11-06-2006, 09:22
Parcel Force produced my parcel this morning. Had to sign for it and did so very dubiously and with an added word 'unchecked'. The parcel had been opened and came with the bottom flaps folded over and certainly not sealed. No indication that the contents had been inspected by HM Revenue and Customs - and no label to that effect on the outside of the package.
Rang Parcel Force to let them know the state of the box. No real response except that it was unlikly to be their responsibility. Rang HM Revenue and Customs - it took nearly 50 attempts to get through! Their records showed that an unopened package was handed over to Parcel Force. Rang Parcel Force again and talked to one of their managers who seemed not to want to know. Had anything gone missing from the package and if it hadn't what was I bothering about -was the impression I got. Not quite the point though.:D
HM Revenue and Customs provided a very helpful answering guy - when I got to talk to him. My camera came under 'cameras, parts and accessories' and was subject to Import Duty and VAT. As the declared value was $150 and import duty was charged at 3.76% (did I imagine that figure?) the amount to be charged was less than 8 euros. So I wasn't liable for import duty! VAT was due on declared value and postage. So that cleared an issue. That the camera body was 60 years old was of no interest - it had to be 100 years old to qualify for a reduction in duty rate to 5%. That the camera was made in a country within the EU made no difference because VAT was liable on goods from those countries.
Result - nice guy to talk to who knew what he was talking about, but no reduction in duty paid. So no progress, some frustration, and I don't feel too much better.
But what about the camera? As illustrated it had a metal body cap. On arrival it had a plastic one. Seller when asked replied the cap hadn't been included in the sale. Seems what is illustrated isn't always what you get. OK - no great deal. There are a few odd chrome bits missing - slow speed dial, and that wasn't quite what the description had led me to believe but I can live with that. The mechanics do seem silky smooth though, much better than on the Ic for instance. I might have a great 'user' here - I get that impression.:rolleyes:
Well, at least I'm not the only one being charged VAT!
I will wait until the camera arrives, and then ring the Customs, to see if I can find out what is and is not duty free for old cameras made in Germany - I like that point.
Paying the duty was an interesting exercise - all done with an automated service, no human involved!. And, the letter demanding duty only had the automated service telephone number. I suppose among the options there might have been one directing me to a human, and I just missed it!
I'm promised a Monday delivery - I refused to pay £12 extra for one for tomorrow Saturday!!
I'll let folks know if I make any progress.
I pursued this earlier this year on the grounds that the same secondhand equipment bought in a British shop would not attract VAT.
A jolly man at C&E read the regs to me. Camera equipment has to be "antique" to avoid VAT if being brought in from outside the EU. For practical purposes this is defined as over 100 years old. I paid VAT, a smaller sum of item specific duty and GBP 13.50 to Parcelforce for the admin.
The only ways to avoid the tax are luck, breaking shipments into small consignments, or illegal declarations.
When I'm eeBayin I know I can effectively bid 25% more for an item in Germany than for a similar one in the US.
jesse1dog, that sounds 'significantly not as described' and you could get yourself a partial refund through paypal. great info either way
jesse1dog
11-06-2006, 13:35
jesse1dog, that sounds 'significantly not as described' and you could get yourself a partial refund through paypal. great info either way
Ash, always a nice idea to get a refund but unless you put the situation in the others court so to speak, its often difficult to get a start in the 'trading'. I paid less than £100 for camera body and case, it handles really well and mechanics seem to be just great. I wasn't looking for something to showcase but somewthing to use, and it looks as if I have that. The rather unexpected downer in the deal has been the p&p and the duties levied. In effect a 40% or near enough increase on purchase price. I still think I have done OK and the hassle of trying to get a refund of a few £ just isn't worth the effort.
Still - good thought.
Ronald M
11-09-2006, 17:50
Next time have the item sent to you for repair and return to originator.
jesse1dog
11-10-2006, 03:20
Next time have the item sent to you for repair and return to originator.
Always like creative thinking - I like this idea - thanks.
Spurious repairs would be illegal and easily traceable, customs and ex can be annoying if you cheat, and they catch... Some people dont like me taking their picture, Q 'You work for tax man', Ans 'No', response 'Ok you want me to pose?'
It seems unfair to charge VAT outside of EU for 2nd hand goods, by private sale, especially if a part (or negative value) swap was involved. The actual price is so arbitary.
How would EU customs judge amount for personal imports, and which countries VAT rate would you pay for indirect routes, and would you get a VAT refund on a negative swap? Between EU countries I've only had interest shown in my passport everything else ignored. It would pay to import via lowest VAT rate country and take a more senic route - could be legal, just keep VAT receipt.
In UK we travel to mainland Europe or Eire to buy autos VAT free and then pay VAT on import to UK, it is necessary to buy petrol(gas) in foreign country and UK to allow the exchange rate date to be baselined. The dealers in UK have even larger markups, (so you save on mark up and VAT %), big savings, - free holiday come back with new car.
Travel to states for holiday subsidised by e-bay purchase savings, travel back via UK... Pity I dont want a mint M8...
I suppose any tax seems unfair.
Noel
What I'm wondering is, if I travel abroad, and take a LOT of film with me, what happens when I send it back to myself??
I was thinking if I take the photo's, develop the film 'on the road' (to avoid it being exposed from x-rays etc) then mailing it back to myself insured to a high value, since precious memories and all that. But then, will they try and charge me import tax? I bet they try it.
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