View Full Version : M8-up with the best
I think this one (I lifted it from another thread) deserves a discussion of its own:
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e32/jaapv/Shot_006_ISO_0160_DNG_M8_09.jpg
This lady was posted before,even the link to the DNG files, so copyright was conceded by the owner,as far as I know. It was dismissed as OOF. I don't think so; I reworked from the DNG file, and I think it is in focus. Sorry I cannot give it full size, but at full pixels it is not bad at all. I'll do a 100% crop later.
And here it is:
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e32/jaapv/Shot_006_ISO_0160_DNG_M8_090_Summic.jpg
Nachkebia
10-25-2006, 03:28
Wow This Is Superfantasticamazing!
It is for file-quality, not judging the plane of focus. But you are right, a 100% crop like this shows up how much DOF one loses at extreme enlargements(to hark back to another discussion) Your observation also shows up the precision with which this camera renders bokeh (yes- Vladimer- I know it is the lens;) but it still has to be rendered.)
I have the impression that the colour balance is slightly too red-yellowish. I only converted the file in Lightroom and did no adjustement, and then ran Focal Blade for sharpening..
Other files are perfectly neutral btw.
Nachkebia
10-25-2006, 03:41
White balance? :D make sure lightroom does not apply auto correction stuff :)
ClaremontPhoto
10-25-2006, 03:42
No, Jaap is not interested in an M8 at all.
White balance? make sure lightroom does not apply auto correction stuff
As far as I know it doesn't.I pulled the TIFF from the program at the first opportunity. I do not like the program anyway, far too automated for my taste. But I dont have any other RAW converter that accepts DNG.
Nachkebia
10-25-2006, 03:44
Btw, I am exchanging Nikon FM3a with Zeiss ZF 50mm, plus Nikon F6 with MB-40 and couple of nikon glass in M8, anyone interested? :D ah and I can through in Nikon F65 with it! :D
No, Jaap is not interested in an M8 at all.
M8 :confused: Is that a new BMW car??:D
Jim Watts
10-25-2006, 04:19
It is for file-quality, not judging the plane of focus. But you are right, a 100% crop like this shows up how much DOF one loses at extreme enlargements(to hark back to another discussion) Your observation also shows up the precision with which this camera renders bokeh (yes- Vladimer- I know it is the lens;) but it still has to be rendered.)
I have the impression that the colour balance is slightly too red-yellowish. I only converted the file in Lightroom and did no adjustement, and then ran Focal Blade for sharpening..
Other files are perfectly neutral btw.
There is an interesting article on Luminous Landscape re DOF in the digital age:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/Digital%20Focusing.shtml
Jaap as far as I can tell the file is pretty much the same quality as any other pro DSLR. Surely the point of the M8 is you can use M glass on it. So if you have £6000 of leica glass it isn't rendered obsolete if you work for an agency or whatever that stops accepting film. There's not much in the electronics side that's really unique, it's an adapted kodak sensor but who knows if that won't end up in a digital Ikon or Bessa eventually. I think it's a nice camera but I wouldn't trade my canon L zooms for it because it lacks the flexibilty of AF and zooming. Although the theoretical image quality is better the lost shots you can get with a slower and less flexible system will more than negate that advantages of potentially superior image quality. I used to be friendly with Steve Mayes who was head of Network Photographers in the nineties and has helped with the judging for world press photo he told me once that the biggest improvement he ever saw in contact sheets amongst his professional collegues was when Canon first introduced the Eos (Steve himself has an M6 that's always around his neck). I think pixel peeping at files is fine as far as it goes but if you invested in a system you pretty much stick with it unless you really want to spend a lot of money in one go. The M8 is pretty much a no brainer if you are a wealthy amateur with a bag of leica glass but to me it's pretty much like buying a Ferrari if you drive a Taxi for a living - its use is limited in the professional world
ClaremontPhoto
10-25-2006, 04:29
Jaap:
No it is not a BMW...
http://www.m8magazine.com/images/splash/images/TTT_04.gif
Nachkebia
10-25-2006, 04:36
http://www.alzozero.it/images/all/m8/cop-m8.jpg
J. Borger
10-25-2006, 04:50
What i see in this sample and all other samples sofar (including those at Seans Site) is that i am glad i kept some pre-asph/ lower contrast lenses ..... because .. just as the R-D1 ... the files get too contrasty real easy ... look at the lip...
Otherwise a really good looking sample!
telenous
10-25-2006, 04:51
Jon's and Vlademir's front covers demonstrate admirably that the M8...
...is like a beautiful woman...
...but built like a tank!
:D
Nachkebia
10-25-2006, 05:03
J. Borger : Contrast is just a option in image settings, you can set to minimum and you wont have any kind of contrast, just a middle tone :)
The M8 is pretty much a no brainer if you are a wealthy amateur with a bag of leica glass but to me it's pretty much like buying a Ferrari if you drive a Taxi for a living - its use is limited in the professional world
Exactly. It's going to be a fine camera but other than RF focusing and smaller it has no advantage on the current crop of pro equipment. The limitations are many with the range of focal lengths for RF and no zooms or AF. I think it's going to be a tough sell to the pro market when a canon 5d or 1DII produces as good or better files for less money and for slightly more the 1DsII can be purchased.
I won't say Iwill not buy one but I'm in no rush. As a pro I have to think about where my money should be spent. Will the M8 give a return vs a new canon 1DsIII at 22mp and proven performance with a vast range of fantastic glass?
Looking at the posted image I don't see anything about it that's different from any other dslr. Any decent dslr and good lens can do a close up and show eye lashes. I just don't see anything special about the image quality. I'm not tryint to be negative but just realistic.
It is a nice looking sample, but is it extraordinary? Nope, I can get the same output from my 20D + fast prime.
Jon's and Vlademir's front covers demonstrate admirably that the M8...
...is like a beautiful woman...
...but built like a tank!
Yeah, and that the images have this plasticky digital look but you can take the M8 into a warzone with you.
Philipp
It is a nice looking sample, but is it extraordinary? Nope, I can get the same output from my 20D + fast prime.
And so can I - at a saving of £4000!
Before you get too excited about overall image quality, it might be a good idea to compare to some other 10-megapixel cameras.
Of course, I'd rather shoot with an RF than an (ick!) SLR, so as long as quality is usable I'm fine.
But it would be incautious to conclude that the M8 is head-and-shoulders above other cameras in terms of file quality without examining some other files.
J. Borger
10-25-2006, 05:31
J. Borger : Contrast is just a option in image settings, you can set to minimum and you wont have any kind of contrast, just a middle tone :)
Thanks Vladimir ... :rolleyes:
Before you get too excited about overall image quality, it might be a good idea to compare to some other 10-megapixel cameras.
Of course, I'd rather shoot with an RF than an (ick!) SLR, so as long as quality is usable I'm fine.
But it would be incautious to conclude that the M8 is head-and-shoulders above other cameras in terms of file quality without examining some other files.
Up there with the best.... Not many heads and shoulders sticking out in that expression....
Nachkebia
10-25-2006, 05:38
It is actualy funny that some people think M8 could not be UP with the best digital cameras! ofcourse it is! its a damn LEICA! gooshhh :)
Yeah, and that the images have this plasticky digital look but you can take the M8 into a warzone with you.
Philipp
The canons and nikons are war zone proven. The M8 will not have dust or water seals .
The canons and nikons are war zone proven. The Ms will not have dust or water seals .
Nor have I. I tend to avoid war zones....
Yeah, and that the images have this plasticky digital look but you can take the M8 into a warzone with you.
Philipp
You can with a battery less M3 or M2, not with this M8 with all its electronics..
Looks like the Leica marketing is doing a fine job on people...
Nachkebia
10-25-2006, 05:59
Oh yeah! leica marketing is doing great job lately, anyhow they did not have to do much, market was zombied already :D
The Ms are just as much war-zone proven. Think Leroy and Burrows.
The Ms are just as much war-zone proven. Think Leroy and Burrows.
Think - Digital, Think - New game
I can sit an M3 out in the rain for an hour and still use it after it dries up. You think the same can be said of the M8? I know it can be said of the D200 and the 1D bodies.
I had my Canon 10D literally dripping water at Vic Falls. Not weather sealed. No problems at all. I think this issue is overblown.
I don't think it's overblown when you are comparing capabilities in an apples to apples fashion. However, I'll say this. The M8 looks to be the best built camera in its form factor.
telenous
10-25-2006, 06:13
Real men use the M8 in a war zone with a 28 lens :D :D :D
J. Borger
10-25-2006, 06:16
I am convinced the M8 easily ranks in the top 2 of digital rangefinders: not only in buildquality but also in imagequality. I gues that will do it for me :)
I think the M8 will easily be the #1 RF but in the scope of digital it's not any better than the run of pro digital gear with fewer features.
I think the M8 will easily be the #1 RF but in the scope of digital it's not any better than the run of pro digital gear with fewer features.
I think the M8 is a throw back to the era when pro cameras had fewer features than their amateur cousins (think FE2 compared to F3 or A1 compared to F1) these days I look for a camera that has automation for situations I need it.
I think the M8 is a throw back to the era when pro cameras had fewer features than their amateur cousins (think FE2 compared to F3 or A1 compared to F1) these days I look for a camera that has automation for situations I need it.
I had not thought of it that way, but yes, I seldomly see a pro using the setting "baby 2"
photogdave
10-25-2006, 07:23
For crying out loud! No one is trying to say the M8 will make better photos than a Canon 1Ds or Nikon D2-whatever. All that is being said is that it is providing COMPARABLE image quality to these cameras in the RF form.
Many photographers have been waiting for this and I have spoken to a few pro M shooters who will definitely buy this camera. Let's get over it! Pro DSLR shooters - as you were.
I had not thought of it that way, but yes, I seldomly see a pro using the setting "baby 2"
It's not really that kind of thing, more like having tracking AF or TTL flash, but having the ability to manually override the camera easily like the manual focus control on Canon L lenses whilst the AF is still on. One of the best thing about the Eos system is the ability to autofocus in a pitch black room if you have a flash attatched but to the same extent the manual ergonomics are still good despite the amount of help the camera can give you if you need it.
I think the M8 will easily be the #1 RF but in the scope of digital it's not any better than the run of pro digital gear with fewer features.
Agreed, even though I love my RD-1. However, I doubt the image quality will be any better than the semi pro/prosumer kit with 10 MP - Nikon D200, forthcoming Pentax K10D etc. The M8's USPs are it is an M mount RF (with all of the benefits that brings), it is most likely better built than the RD-1 and you'll most likely get it serviced in the future. It will never be as robust as a mechanical M - the electronics will see to that - no banging in nails or fending off a mugger with this one:)
As far a price is concerned, it is a better deal than the RD-1 was when it was launched - MP/M7 + 50% versus something like CV R3 + 300% (I'm ignoring the ergonomics of the RD-1 which are great, but still not really worth that sort of mark up).
I'm sure that the M8 will be a relative success and in the right hands, capable of producing great images, but not necessarily any better than a whole raft of other digital cameras or existing film cameras. No sour grapes here, I will eventually get one, once user feedback is in the public domain, as my RD-1 will not last forever.
newyorkone
10-25-2006, 07:29
It's not really that kind of thing, more like having tracking AF or TTL flash, but having the ability to manually override the camera easily like the manual focus control on Canon L lenses whilst the AF is still on. One of the best thing about the Eos system is the ability to autofocus in a pitch black room if you have a flash attatched but to the same extent the manual ergonomics are still good despite the amount of help the camera can give you if you need it.
It's pointless to compare AF SLR systems to RF. Different tools for different needs. Personally I will own both.
For crying out loud! No one is trying to say the M8 will make better photos than a Canon 1Ds or Nikon D2-whatever. All that is being said is that it is providing COMPARABLE image quality to these cameras in the RF form.
Many photographers have been waiting for this and I have spoken to a few pro M shooters who will definitely buy this camera. Let's get over it! Pro DSLR shooters - as you were.
BUT for the long term survival of Leica they have to appeal to a new generation not just 'M shooters'. I've often thought that all the guff in Leica press releases about letting the photographer have control and not interfering with the photgraphers vision is to cover up the fact that they can't compete with the big boys in R+D terms and so they try to make a virtue of their simplicity. I really wonder what cameras they'd produce with Canon's budget and how much their 'philosophy'would change
It's pointless to compare AF SLR systems to RF. Different tools for different needs. Personally I will own both.
The context of his comment, if you read thru the whole thread was why most pros will not use this camera when given the choice of a pro DSLR and the M8.
I had not thought of it that way, but yes, I seldomly see a pro using the setting "baby 2"
Correct but (there's that word again) we do use a variety of program modes like program, aperture priority, shutter priority and auto focus. German cars and cameras have always been more sparce in features than Japanese cars and cameras. The good thing is those features have given more options and have taken camera technology a few steps forward. I'm one of those photographers that still like the basics and still shoot M's and shoot Nikon F2's still. I also use automation when needed and select the machine to do the job at hand.
You might find the attached image interesting. It's from a shoot this morning and was from a model shot 1/2 full length (waste up to about six inches above the head. This is a 100% crop from a canon raw file converted in PS CS2 with default sharpening. Data, canon 1DsII, 85mm 1.2 at 8 and ISO 100.
The 1DsII is about $1000 more expensive than the M8 but the 1DIIN is just as sharp and produces virtually the same quality image as the 1DsII. I think the 1DIIN is cheaper than the M8.
This wasn't from a close up of the face.
Nachkebia
10-25-2006, 07:36
Okey guys! you have convinced me! I want M8! all you have to do is buy it for me! :angel:
It's pointless to compare AF SLR systems to RF. Different tools for different needs. Personally I will own both.
Why? I have both systems and have done pro work with both (and MF). I could shoot portraits, documentary, or travel on any of those three systems but in the end duplicating capabilities across systems isn't very cash efficient so I put my money into what I thought was the best bet - so I did make a direct comparison and was by no means pointless.
J. Borger
10-25-2006, 07:48
Am i the only one having the impression this thread, as most M8 or digital related threads, are leading nowhere ..... a complete waste of bandwith and time ... ........i had it for today ..... of to the pub :)
ClaremontPhoto
10-25-2006, 07:53
C'mon Leica. Get this M8 in the shops so we can talk about the R4A and R4M which should surely have you worried.
They have 21mm framelines in the viewfinder... Yes, that is something new.
I suppose there is a category of pro's - it probably depends on inclination and specialty- that really appreciate the advent of the M8. At any rate,HERE (http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/458739/104#4007406) a number of them are excitedly gearing up....
Am i the only one having the impression this thread, as most M8 or digital related threads, are leading nowhere ..... a complete waste of bandwith and time ... ........i had it for today ..... of to the pub :)
This, as most of these threads are, is therapy for those who are about to drop $5000 on a camera that will produce images as good as cameras costing $1000. Not pointless at all :D
Yeah, and that the images have this plasticky digital look but you can take the M8 into a warzone with you.
PhilippYou can with a battery less M3 or M2, not with this M8 with all its electronics..
Looks like the Leica marketing is doing a fine job on people...
Some of you guys left your humour outside with the dog, did you?
I was commenting on the two "M8" pictures with the plasticky half-dressed girl and the tank.
Philipp
Nachkebia
10-25-2006, 08:09
C'mon Leica. Get this M8 in the shops so we can talk about the R4A and R4M which should surely have you worried.
They have 21mm framelines in the viewfinder... Yes, that is something new.
Tell me about it, R4 sounds fantastic! I don`t know about M8 but I am definetly getting bessa R4!
I think the M8 is a throw back to the era when pro cameras had fewer features than their amateur cousins (think FE2 compared to F3 or A1 compared to F1)
The new F1 actually had a lot more features compared to the A-1.
The old F1 from 1971 didn't, but then it was seven years older than the A-1.
Philipp
Take a look at this:
http://www.iol.ie/~corkflor/wetzlar3.html (http://www.iol.ie/%7Ecorkflor/wetzlar3.html)
Several shots are represented in following pages.
M8 + Noctilux
ClaremontPhoto
10-25-2006, 08:20
R4 will have built-in framelines for 21, 25, 28, 35 and 50mm focal lengths. M mount.
R4A with electronic shutter, matte black and auto/manual exposure,
R4M with mechanical shutter, glossy black and manual exposure.
About April 2007, thought to be about the same price as the R2's and R3's.
Abrahamsson provided the concept, and Kobayashi is making it. R4 is not a me too camera, it's a completely new market segment.
Am i the only one having the impression this thread, as most M8 or digital related threads, are leading nowhere ..... a complete waste of bandwith and time ... ........i had it for today ..... of to the pub :)
Let's start being rational then: we are on RFF so we opt for rangefinders (D)SLR's are out then.
We are on the digital section so we leave our film in the gearbag.
Two options left :RD1 and M8. We are in the M8 thread. The camera is still in transit to us, so there is nothing to talk about. So what do we talk about?: nothing :D
Which pub?
photogdave
10-25-2006, 08:36
I'm not talking about the survival of the company or its marketing tactics. That's for discussions on other threads.
I'm talking about the members here who shoot DSLR in a professional capacity trying to rain on the parade of the members who are excited about the M8. Most people here seem pretty educated and quite aware of the overall limitations of a rangefinder vs. SLR. EVERYONE here knows this! Old news!
No one is expecting the files from the M8 to appear magically better than a pro DSLR. They are just excited that they will be just as good. All I'm saying is, can't we just let them be excited?
Nachkebia
10-25-2006, 08:58
Is anyone ever going to post some GOOD pictures taken with the M8.
Way to hijack the thread Jon Claremont.
That was Leica job.. is anyone at work there!? stupid strategy..
They did not send me M8 so there will be no good pictures :D :D :rolleyes:
newyorkone
10-25-2006, 09:03
Why? I have both systems and have done pro work with both
Even more reason that you should understand that the two systems have uses and strengths which aren't entirely duplicative. You also mention that if Leica had the money what would they do differently...I don't know the answer to that but I definitely know that I would rather they not go down the same road as companies like Canon, Nikon...whatever SLR company, take your pick. If Leica made an autofocus, wiz-bang RF I wouldn't buy it. Contax did it...look where they are.
1DsII...amazing camera and for some things cannot be beat but for street photography and most candid portraits, an RF camera simply is the best option. From my experience, In reportage situations people more often than not shy away from the giant SLR's with giant zoom lenses but for some reason they warm up to the RF.
1DsII...amazing camera and for some things cannot be beat but for street photography and most candid portraits, an RF camera simply is the best option. From my experience, In reportage situations people more often than not shy away from the giant SLR's with giant zoom lenses but for some reason they warm up to the RF.
Very reasonable comments, which I totally agree. I just don't like how ppl claim the M8 is or will produce the most film-like images of all digital cameras..
. pffttt ( is there a line formed to suck Leica's you know what? get 'em knee pads out boys... )
( is there a line formed to suck Leica's you know what? )
Maybe that's what you have to do to get moved up in the waiting list...
1DsII...amazing camera and for some things cannot be beat but for street photography and most candid portraits, an RF camera simply is the best option. From my experience, In reportage situations people more often than not shy away from the giant SLR's with giant zoom lenses but for some reason they warm up to the RF.
But am I the only one who's spotted the irony in the fact that street photography has very limited commercial potential but the ideal street photography tool is one of the most expensive cameras on the market? :D :D :D
Being thinking and enjoying about the general trend of thoughts in this thread. Thanks all.
I'm a canon professional who's interested in the M8 (Not changing system but adding to my repertoire). The M8 will serve to open new areas of work for me and the M8's strengths are opposite to the strengths of the Canon system. My canons are excellent for some of my work but not all my clients are well served by a Canon.
I am considering a Leica M8 for its quietness, excellent low distortion compact lenses at wide open apertures and consistent reliable mechanics of its lenses. And the lack of the AA filter.
Alex
But am I the only one who's spotted the irony in the fact that street photography has very limited commercial potential but the ideal street photography tool is one of the most expensive cameras on the market? :D :D :D
Very true! Aiming high at an M8 requires serious considerations at your economics of operations. No passerby I've encountered ever offered me any money even for a memorable composition. sigh!
Fortunately, for some of the jobs I do, I can justify an M8.
Alex
For me it is not that.
1. digital workflow - unavoidable nowadays unless you are a B&W shooter or want to invest major effort and time in a colour darkroom ( or accept the doubtful output of lab's).
2.Filmscanning - I don't know about you, but I personally don't have the time or the inclination and, frankly, unless one really invests those two the results are variable at best.
3.SLR's- been there-done that. Decades of use taught me that RF-s are my thing.
4.DSLR's- great machines if you need them or like them.Great results if you have a good one.I kept the one I disliked least.
5.RD1- nice if not great camera, betters most prosumer digital offerings. But not the camera for a Leica M user of 35 years.
6.The M8- Finally a Leica M that promises to yield results that are in the same range as the best digital camera's now on the market.
So excuse me please if I am happy that it has come and that I am pleased when prelimerary results seem to confirm that it delivers its promise.
And to comment on the wealthy amateur remarks. Yes I am an amateur - which, incidentally, means somebody who does something because he really likes to. But wealthy? not according to my bank manager - If my signature looks like it: consider that that represents 50 years of up-trading equipment.
Very true! Aiming high at an M8 requires serious considerations at your economics of operations. No passerby I've encountered ever offered me any money even for a memorable composition. sigh!
Fortunately, for some of the jobs I do, I can justify an M8.
Alex
I think that for what I would use it for I'd be lucky if it paid for itself in a year or two.:confused:
I have to admit that these few examples aren't a 100% proof for top-notch-image-quality.
But it's not a 10MP-consumer-camera.
It uses the most expensive 35mm-hardware on the market, the best lenses in the world and has a build quality unlike any other (35mm-segment). Professional C and N are robust, so is the M8. But the M8 is build to fulfill highest standards Leica-customers are used to. Why do you think they use CNC-milling to make all outer parts of the camera? Why this expensive finish in every detail? Because it's a Leica. They don't think of financing a 100Mil. $ marketing-campaign due a 20%-margin of your (not soo cheap) C/N.
A 10MPixel can't do magic, but when I think of the M8-files (I've shot a few DNGs at a shop) and especially DMR-files (which even uses an older sensor) I can say that this is top-quality - it has nothing to do with cheap consumer-cameras.
You have to shot RAW and you have to uses the latest generation Leica-lenses and you will get an unique combination!
The lenses aren't used to 100%, but you can buy them now and they will bring you extreme quality with further developed sensors in the future.
Canon is superior? Yes, when you shoot sports, need fast pictures this is the perfect tool. Everybody else who is willing to pay this much money should think about it twice. Many Canon-users which prefer IQ over speed already switched to the DMR (it's still only a niche between 35mm and MF-backs), the M8 has even further advantages.
But two things are simply extraordinary:
The build quality (bodies and lenses) and the optical-lens-quality.
Everybody who likes to use wideangles should try this when the M8 is out:
M8+ 16-21-Tri (about 7000€) vs. 1dsMarkII/Nikon D2X + any WA-lens from C/N (5000-9000€).
Have you handled the small <800g (no plastic!!!) -combo with the new 2,8/28Asph. ? Compare it at open aperture against your 2kg-DSLR-solution (they're build for a special purpose: speed)...
Or simply try the 1,4/35Asph at open aperture, or the 90AA, or...
Just try it yourself!
I think that for what I would use it for I'd be lucky if it paid for itself in a year or two.:confused:
We all need to justify the expenses sensibly or we will be out of business. I never considered a leica for any of my work until I worked out the requirements of my clients and then only as a subset of my toolkit. Never considered the Leica in my film days as the Sinar was my main bread and butter camera with the Rollei and the Canons for other work. The M series never fitted then.
Three key factors made me lean toward a leica.
A 5D or 1DSmkII with the equivalent lenses would seriously impair my mobiity as well as my speed of response.
Canon's AF while excellent is not 100% accurate in certain conditions especially with wides at 40 to 80 meters range.
Viewing outside the imaging area is valuable to me. The equal of having zooms.
Alex
We all need to justify the expenses sensibly or we will be out of business. I never considered a leica for any of my work until I worked out the requirements of my clients and then only as a subset of my toolkit. Never considered the Leica in my film days as the Sinar was my main bread and butter camera with the Rollei and the Canons for other work. The M series never fitted then.
Three key factors made me lean toward a leica.
A 5D or 1DSmkII with the equivalent lenses would seriously impair my mobiity as well as my speed of response.
Canon's AF while excellent is not 100% accurate in certain conditions especially with wides at 40 to 80 meters range.
Viewing outside the imaging area is valuable to me. The equal of having zooms.
Alex
I agree - its totally reflective in how you work. I made a conscious decision to sacrifice some image quality for zooms, although I do keep a 50 1.4 with me.
I certainly do not blindly trust AF
I know I can street shoot with my Bessa kit a lot long longer than I can with my EOS kit and that in itself may yield a better result. But to the same extent I often have days when I think I've always got the wrong lens on the camera I have that less often with zooms.
There is no perfect kit. There are always compromises. No one yet has made my perfect camera.
I'm interested in the M8 but I like to wait to see what people think when the cameras been around for a few months. I'm not worried about image quality I've made nice pictures with £100 SLR's and crappy ones with a 6x7. I know in the end its down to me.
Measurebators.....
Hopefully there will enough Brick Walls availible once the distribtution gets going.
I dread to think of the content of various rangefinder/leica related fori once people get their hands on one ....
Me, I will just go out and take pictures, avoid brick walls and give the internet a rest for a while, ahhh yes I will put my M8 on my bedside cabinet for the first couple of weeks and perhaps stroke it when I wake up in the middle of the night, that is if it ever ships.....
I was promissed a shipment date of end October, which is now second week of december .....
But then again Leica is a company that doesn't need "actual" customer satisfaction, the red dot performs wonders. On another forum I read a remark about the sharpness of the digilux 3
"ok so it seems less sharp than X,y and z, but then you only need sharpness if your into architectural and art photography, I don't do that, so I'm happy"
Very easy customer base, people that will polish off quality issues by simply disregarding them.
I wish my industry type would work like that .....
Frikki@myndlist
10-25-2006, 13:22
I am a photojurnalist and I forsee using the m8 (ordering tomorrow) in more or less in about 80% of my avalable light work I will still use my nikon but it will mostly be used for the long lens, flash and run and gun shooting that I do.
Let's start being rational then: we are on RFF so we opt for rangefinders (D)SLR's are out then.
We are on the digital section so we leave our film in the gearbag.
Two options left :RD1 and M8. We are in the M8 thread. The camera is still in transit to us, so there is nothing to talk about. So what do we talk about?: nothing :D
Which pub?
this actually makes sense.
Agreed, even though I love my RD-1. However, I doubt the image quality will be any better than the semi pro/prosumer kit with 10 MP - Nikon D200, forthcoming Pentax K10D etc. The M8's USPs are it is an M mount RF (with all of the benefits that brings), it is most likely better built than the RD-1 and you'll most likely get it serviced in the future. It will never be as robust as a mechanical M - the electronics will see to that - no banging in nails or fending off a mugger with this one:)
As far a price is concerned, it is a better deal than the RD-1 was when it was launched - MP/M7 + 50% versus something like CV R3 + 300% (I'm ignoring the ergonomics of the RD-1 which are great, but still not really worth that sort of mark up).
I'm sure that the M8 will be a relative success and in the right hands, capable of producing great images, but not necessarily any better than a whole raft of other digital cameras or existing film cameras. No sour grapes here, I will eventually get one, once user feedback is in the public domain, as my RD-1 will not last forever.
Only a few years ago Kodak had the only real game going in DSLR equipment. It's been within the past seven years that a camera with less than 3MP was $30,000. When Nikon came out with the D1 the Kodak 2.5mp ( don't remember the exact MP) was in the $30K range and the cheapest Kodak was $14,000. I shot with the AP digi SLR once and found it almost unusable. The files were terrible but the camera was $17K. I guess I look at this from a professional point of view and see the fantastic improvements in digital and see how the prices tumbled after the D1 Nikon came out at under $5K (2.75 MP). This basically is what's happened with the RD-1 and now the M8. Features, image and build quality had jumped through the roof. I see the M8 the same way as the new crop of DSLR's but tamed down somewhat. I don't see it as particularly over priced as much as I see it weak on features and specs for a comperable DSLR. Build will be great but in a time that technology doubles every 18 months I don't see that traditional Leica build is important like it was in a film camera that would be used for 50 years. In 5 years or less the M8 will be so out dated in technology they will be selling for under $1000. Even at this point I would'nt say the M8 is a technology marvel but would consider it's image quality to equal but not better the current crop of prosumer / pro DSLR's. Leica missed the boat in PJ use when they didn't incorporate water and dirt seals in the body and lenses. Our film M will keep on going under the worst conditions but rain and dirt are the death of digital.
This, as most of these threads are, is therapy for those who are about to drop $5000 on a camera that will produce images as good as cameras costing $1000. Not pointless at all :D
I love it! Not trying to beat up on you guys but I think it's a way to justify spending $5K on a camera just to save $250 a year in film and processing.
I think we've nailed it :<).
When I was thinking about going digital seven years ago I had to weigh the savings of film / processing vs the cost of digital. I deceided to buy a $5K D1 Nikon thinking it would save about $30K in film and processing a year. To my surprise within a year it replaced 85%. The savings was roughly $85K that year.
I had to face this question again when I was thinking of buying a $27K back for my Hasselblads. I deceided that the small amount of LF and MF film that I would replace each year wasn't enough to justify a $27 to $30K+ back. I now shoot film as needed and do my owns scans on my Fuji Finescan 5000.
Gabriel M.A.
10-25-2006, 16:11
Am i the only one having the impression this thread, as most M8 or digital related threads, are leading nowhere ..... a complete waste of bandwith and time ... ........i had it for today ..... of to the pub :)
The responses get too predictable, I'm afraid: "digital sucks! film is dead! Leica needs to be saved! It's just like a digicam! I don't care about this camera, and this is why I need you to read and care why I don't care! Is this the end of film? Is digital the next new thing? German cars. Nikon cameras."
It's like watching an Aaron Spelling production.
I'm not sure if the same logic of saving on film applies to amateur use. This way or that, financially amateur photography is a net loss. Ideal cost saving would be just abandon the hobby altogether.
As for pro-use, people choose whatever they think is apropriate. I've seen people shooting MF Alpa with lightbulbs where you would least expect them. And that Magnum chap doing war reportage with Oly C-7070/8080 digicams (does it make them warzone-proven?) :)
The responses get too predictable, I'm afraid: "digital sucks! film is dead! Leica needs to be saved! It's just like a digicam! I don't care about this camera, and this is why I need you to read and care why I don't care! Is this the end of film? Is digital the next new thing? German cars. Nikon cameras."
Totally agree - EXACTLY the problem i'm afraid.
For those of us who're in the queue to buy the camera - which is an enormous investment for most of us - it's eternally frustrating that the flow of information about it is ALWAYS and INEVITABLY frustrated by a small but incredibly persistent band of sceptics who have NOTHING WHATSOEVER to add to the debate, other than to mutter a variation of "digital sucks" over and over and over and over and over and over again.
I challenge one of these guys (you know who you are) to point to ONE single thread on this entire M8 forum where no-one jumps in and says "digital sucks" in some way or other, and spoils the whole debate for everyone.
What i don't really get is this: if they hate digital so much - WHY DO THEY SPEND ALL THEIR TIME ON THE DIGITAL FORUMS??
I challenge one of these guys (you know who you are) to point to ONE single thread on this entire M8 forum where no-one jumps in and says "digital sucks" in some way or other, and spoils the whole debate for everyone.
I guess that's a function of the lack of information about the camera. Since there's nothing to talk about, people talk about nothing. In a year or so, all of them/you/us will have seen an M8, you can expect all of this to be over.
Philipp
You might find the attached image interesting. It's from a shoot this morning and was from a model shot 1/2 full length (waste up to about six inches above the head. This is a 100% crop from a canon raw file converted in PS CS2 with default sharpening. Data, canon 1DsII, 85mm 1.2 at 8 and ISO 100.
Nice, but the per-pixel quality of the M8 portrait is definitely better, even taking into account the higher close-up.
This is one of the reasons why many photographers who shot wth the 1DsII went DMR (go to Fredmiranda forum).
Even if it has 10 Mp the final quality often exceeds that of the 16.7 Mp 1DsII.
Other factors were higher dynamic range and the quality of lenses.
If you want high resolution with AF or IS lenses and fast shooting Canon is still the king (though Nikon is catching up).
The 1DsII is about $1000 more expensive than the M8 but the 1DIIN is just as sharp and produces virtually the same quality image as the 1DsII. I think the 1DIIN is cheaper than the M8.
1DsII is almost 2,000 $ more expensive than the M8.
Sorry but you can't compare the 1DIIN with 1DsII, the latter has much better image quality.
Yes, 1DIIN is cheaper than the M8.
The 1DsII is about $1000 more expensive than the M8 but the 1DIIN is just as sharp and produces virtually the same quality image as the 1DsII. I think the 1DIIN is cheaper than the M8.
Yes- but can it bake a cake?
Not wanting to be trollish- but is this not turning the thread into a RF vs. SLR debate? That is going about half a century back in time.
It's not a DSLR vs RF debate, just an image quality discussion.
Sorry to disagree that the M8 pixel per pixel quality is better. This is total advertising hype. It might be equal but not better. The lack of AA filter does not necessarily make a better file. My 1D canon had a margial AA filter and was sharp but moire was a big problem when shooting fabrics like fashion. Also I've not found one pro that I've run into that uses the DMR. DMR sales relative to canon or nikon are only a small fraction. I know it's good but to say that 10mp is better is silly. If you're shooting for small repro then it might equal it but when upsampling is needed there is absolutely no substitute for pixels.
You have a valid point about the resolution in terms of pixel number, but bit depth and dynamic range are just as important. However, I was referring to the "features" part of the discussion.
I find the argument "better" in this class rather meaningless anyway.
For the record, DMR upsamples better than 1DsII, just because it has no AA filter.
1D had moiré because it had only 4 Mp.
Most DMR users very seldom encountered moiré and they always state that they take 99% sharper than 1% no-moiré anyday.
Btw, if there's no substitute for pixels, why did you say that 1DIIN has virtually the same image quality than 1DsII ? :)
About resolution in terms of megapixels, surely the difference between 10 and 16 is not really very significant. I would have thought that in cases where the number of pixels is really critical a MF digital back would be the tool of choice.
[QUOTE=MarcoS
Btw, if there's no substitute for pixels, why did you say that 1DIIN has virtually the same image quality than 1DsII ? :)[/QUOTE]
Because it does. The files from the 1DIIN are a very close match to the 1DsII but smaller in size. The only real difference is the size of the file.
There is no substitute for pixels if you are upsampling. If the information doesn't exist in the file then no software will add that information. A prime example is when upsampling a shot with leaves in the scene. When upsampling the images start to look like sea sponges soaked in green paint. The leaf shape is gone and it now looks like clumps of green. I don't care if there is an AA filter or not if the information doesn't exist you can not upsample and add it.
Better depends on use. If you need to supply a file to an art director who may crop out half the image and use it in a 2 page spread or you are printing mural size images then a 39MP medium format back is better. If your rangefinder images are generally printed with little or no cropping at 11 x 14 or smaller then 10MP can look as good or better then 39MP. If you are shooting fast paced reportage in low light, superior image quality won't matter if you can't get the shot. There is no best in all circumstances whether you are comapring rangefinder to slr or smaller format size to larger format size be it analogue or digital.
Because it does. The files from the 1DIIN are a very close match to the 1DsII but smaller in size. The only real difference is the size of the file.
Many others, myself included, think otherwise.
There is no substitute for pixels if you are upsampling. If the information doesn't exist in the file then no software will add that information.
Agreed, but upsampling a better per-pixel quality image always leads to a better image, sometimes nullifying the higher Mp advantage.
A prime example is when upsampling a shot with leaves in the scene. When upsampling the images start to look like sea sponges soaked in green paint. The leaf shape is gone and it now looks like clumps of green. I don't care if there is an AA filter or not if the information doesn't exist you can not upsample and add it.
Agreed here, distant leaves are IMO the hardest test for any sensor...
But if the leaves are somewhat blurred at the original size, due to the presence of a strong AA filter or less quality pixel, then we could get equal or better quality with an upsampled higer quality less Mp image.
To make an extreme analogy, I'm sure we'll get better quality from an upsampled Eos-1D 4.1 Mp image than from an 8 Mp P&S.
Clearly the 1DsII is all but a P&S... but you get the idea.
Moreover you agree that there's more than absolute resolution in an image.
Tonal rendition and dynamic range come to mind.
Indeed I'd be crazy to say that a full frame 18 Mp Leica M9 would give the same quality of today M8, but this is because I assume that at worst they'll use the same sensor's technology.
Comparing different brands is somewhat less straightforward.
Even comparing between different sensors of the same brand (like Eos-20D vs Eos-1DII) would give different results than pure numbers would suggest.
Cheers :)
Marco
Btw Don, out-standing images on your site !
I love your x-ray images.
Interesting the technique you use to photograph the flowers.
I run a medical radiology center and I'm amazed to see some artistic contents passing through x-rays.
Your subjects are definitely more pleasant to the eye than what we use to see here... ;)
My best compliments :)
Marco
Thanks Marcos! Look at my other work ans see a total 180 degree shift from the x-rays. http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=5045
I started as a PJ and since the early 70's have had a commercial studio.
I still shoot a great deal of editorial and documantary work.
Digital has been my commercial studio work horse for the past seven years but film is what I use in my documentary work. I've shot Leica M's mainly for nearly 40 years.
As to the moire issue. I don't think it has anything to do with MP's. The 12 mp Kodak FF DSLR was terrible for moire too.
Great images over there also!
Definitely a 180° shift... you are a 360° photographer, but you don't make panos... :p
Seriously Don, keep up the good work!
Ciao :)
Marco
boilerdoc2
10-26-2006, 09:36
Xray: How are the leaves in the Smokies this year?
Steve in Indiana
Truely beautiful images, Don. Thanks.
Alex
Xray: How are the leaves in the Smokies this year?
Steve in Indiana
In the valley the color is OK in some areas and brilliant in others. Overall in the valley it's good but no the best I've seen. I had an aerial shoot north of here yesterday and flew a helicopter along the cumberlands and was disappointed in the colors there. Seems like in the higher areas the leaves have fallen off or just turned brown. I thought the color was going to be spectacular but dopesn't look like it will make it this year.
Our spring wasn't as wet this year and the summer heat lasted longer which probably had an effect.
Nachkebia
10-27-2006, 07:34
I just held M8 in leica store, well it looks lovely :) I can actualy buy it if I want to (but ofcourse I dont) :) but I bought leica flash :)
Don't do that too often Vladimer.... It might cost you 5000$ in the end ;):D
Nachkebia
10-27-2006, 09:05
jaapv : Heh, yeah it was very tempting :D in fact sales person tryed to sell me M7 or MP with very low price, but I am not up to second body at the momment, when I sell my SLR gear, maybe I will go for MP :) Now I need 28mm elmarit asph!
Nachkebia
10-27-2006, 12:33
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1038&message=20626808
Check this out, What a disaster, How can someone shoot picture for heart with this plastic, lifeless look?
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1038&message=20626808
Check this out, What a disaster, How can someone shoot picture for heart with this plastic, lifeless look?
The DR in those images is sensational!! Not....
Next! <shoves the M8 to the side>
On a serious note: I'm sure the M8 can perform better than these samples if post processed correctly(which could suggest an unusable JPEG mode on the M8) Where are those haters now, the ones who laughed when I called out Leica's poor marketing for not releasing any *good looking* official images?
Nachkebia
10-27-2006, 13:45
Camera is on sale, so I guess everyone can post images :) I could have bought one today and could have posted some images actualy :)
Actually, just taking a look on Leica's website, the current brochure contains what looks to be images from the M8, albeit low res ones and compressed into the PDF document. They look good, as expected. However, in the digital game, they need to provide official full res samples, just like what Canon does on their website.
Nachkebia
10-27-2006, 14:06
You mean images on 30-33 pages right? Those are least photos I like on that brochure (tonality and texture wise)
I just held M8 in leica store, well it looks lovely :) I can actualy buy it if I want to (but ofcourse I dont) :) but I bought leica flash :)
The store has an M8 (a) *for sale* or (b) just for fondling? If (a), where? Just curious ;)
Oooh,, could it be? the M8 images from the brouchure looks to be from Simon Wheatly's photo essay on London's Inner City Youths.. Dare I think any images from his Magnum Essay was shot with the M8? I wouldn't think Leica would dare to impose the NDA on Simon by forcing him to bring multiple cameras on his photoshoots and not use any of the pics from the M8 for his essay.
http://inmotion.magnumphotos.com/essays/innercity.aspx
Nachkebia
10-27-2006, 14:29
The store has an M8 (a) *for sale* or (b) just for fondling? If (a), where? Just curious ;)
No, they have it for sale, I have asked two times "is it the final M8 for sale right? not the beta one just for testing" they said it is for sale :) I opened packaged fresh M8 with my heands, Where? in dubai, will tell you more information with some telephone numbers if you send me your Lux lens :D :D
Gabriel M.A.
10-27-2006, 14:59
Oh, sure, Dubai. I'll pick a cup of coffee on my way. Back at 8! :rolleyes:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1038&message=20626808
Check this out, What a disaster, How can someone shoot picture for heart with this plastic, lifeless look?
You know what? You are 100% right.
Extenuating circumstances:
a. This is DPreview
b. The guy hasn't got the foggiest idea what he is talking about, and has probably never seen a Leica or even a RF before in his life....
No, they have it for sale, I have asked two times "is it the final M8 for sale right? not the beta one just for testing" they said it is for sale :) I opened packaged fresh M8 with my heands, Where? in dubai, will tell you more information with some telephone numbers if you send me your Lux lens :D :D
Ah yes Dubai.. Last time I looked they offered me a hotel room at $ 3400 a night.. A piddling 5000 $ for a camera is just like buying a Coke over there....
Nachkebia
10-27-2006, 15:05
Ah yes Dubai.. Last time I looked they offered me a hotel room at $ 3400 a night.. A piddling 5000 $ for a camera is just like buying a Coke over there....
You have to see my ferrari :D :D
The DR in those images is sensational!! Not....
Next! <shoves the M8 to the side>
On a serious note: I'm sure the M8 can perform better than these samples if post processed correctly(which could suggest an unusable JPEG mode on the M8) Where are those haters now, the ones who laughed when I called out Leica's poor marketing for not releasing any *good looking* official images?
You're right... the unwashed idiots are moving in :(
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