The Sun Will Come Out Tomorrow

[sreidvt]

An M8 with production level firmware will be in my hands tomorrow (a little later than expected but wonderful nonetheless). Given the angle of incidence challenges, etc. I'll get into testing wide lenses first. Here are the new expected lens tests based on what I will have at hand:

Leica 21/2.8, Zeiss 21/2.8, CV 21/4

Leica 24/2.8, Zeiss 25/2.8

Leica 28/2.8 (!), Leica 28/2.0, Zeiss 28/2.8, CV 28/1.9, CV 28/3.5

More lens tests, of course will follow.

I'll do an initial piece on file quality and then another one with much more in depth tests, comparisons, etc.

I'm itching to get started.

Cheers,

Sean
__

Sean Reid
http://www.reidreviews.com

[Sparrow]

At last!! Something to speculate about

[jaapv]

Yummy! :):)

[Stan98103]

Sean,

That's great news!

I'm particularly interested in finding out if the 6-bit code has any effect on the DNG files or if it is just used for processing the JPG file.

What happens if you shoot the same image with a 6-bit coded wide-angle Leica lens with the camera preferences set to Lens Detection Enabled and then to Lens Detection Disabled? Will there be any difference in the resulting DNG files other than the embedded EXIF data?

I looking forward to reading your reviews.

Thanks and happy testing!

Stan

[sreidvt]

Hi Stan,

That's one thing that I will be testing.

Cheers,

Sean

[Gid]

Sean,

You are a lucky man. As always, I look forward to reading the results of your tests which usually end up costing me money:D

[sreidvt]

BTW, I don't have a shoot scheduled for next weekend (10/28 & 29) so I'd be happy to meet up with people somewhere near SE VT. I can't get together a big shin-dig but we could meet for lunch somewhere and play with the M8. Again, not a big production event but something easy.

Maybe at an inn in Vermont? I have some friends/clients who own an inn in Chester, VT and another in West Dover, VT. There's a little foliage left here and the colors in the Berkshires might still be good.

Cheers,

Sean

[jlw]

If I (speaking as both a paying RR customer and a student of RFF human nature) may make a suggestion that may save you a bit of bother:

Before you do anything else, make a quick "best-case" test shot (one using a lens you're confident is excellent quality, your best guess at optimum camera settings e.g. low ISO, and the usual careful photographic technique) and post it.

This will give everyone something to scrutinize and argue about, leaving you to conduct your more comprehensive evaluations in relative peace.

You might also score the coup of being the first independent reviewer to post a production-firmware sample photo, although I imagine others will start appearing more or less simultaneously.

[John Camp]

I'd add to JLW's post, and suggest that in addtion to a "best-case" shot, you add one (just one) at a higher ISO -- 1250 or 2500. I think there's a lot of anxiety about how this will work as a classic low-light Leica.

JC

[grantray]

Hi Sean,

Any idea on what framelines the 21 & 25 bigons bring up? I'd like to use them when my M8 arrives. I'll be a very happy camper if the 25 brings up the proper 24 lines.

-grant

[sreidvt]

If I (speaking as both a paying RR customer and a student of RFF human nature) may make a suggestion that may save you a bit of bother:

Before you do anything else, make a quick "best-case" test shot (one using a lens you're confident is excellent quality, your best guess at optimum camera settings e.g. low ISO, and the usual careful photographic technique) and post it.

This will give everyone something to scrutinize and argue about, leaving you to conduct your more comprehensive evaluations in relative peace.

You might also score the coup of being the first independent reviewer to post a production-firmware sample photo, although I imagine others will start appearing more or less simultaneously.

Hi jlw,

Thanks for the suggestions and I might do that if time allows. I'm not worried about being first with the review, per se. I'm more concerned with being thorough and accurate. If someone else gets samples up first, that's one less thing on my "to do" list.

Cheers,

Sean

[sreidvt]

I'd add to JLW's post, and suggest that in addtion to a "best-case" shot, you add one (just one) at a higher ISO -- 1250 or 2500. I think there's a lot of anxiety about how this will work as a classic low-light Leica.

JC

Hi John,

All of this will be addressed in the articles, I promise. If I put samples before hand, I'll try to do all ISOs. But it's better not to rush things out.

Cheers,

Sean

[sreidvt]

Hi Sean,

Any idea on what framelines the 21 & 25 bigons bring up? I'd like to use them when my M8 arrives. I'll be a very happy camper if the 25 brings up the proper 24 lines.

-grant

Hi Grant,

Did you see my comments about the 25 in first M8 review? I can't recall what the 21 brings up but will check tomorrow.

Cheers,

Sean

[lxlim]

Hi, Sean,

Just signed up as a subscriber to your site. Thanks for giving us the working pro's view. I enjoyed the M8 review and also liked your recommendations to Leica. I emailed you some of my thoughts on your recommendations, hope you received them.

I am considering the M8 for my work and would like to know the 135mm's limitations at distances over 50m. Can framing be guessed at so long as I centre the focussing patch? That is, does the focussing patch represent the sensor's centre?

As a DSLR user(canon), I use a focusing screen with gridlines to help me level quickly. Could I do the same with the M8's framelines? I apologise for the many newbie questions. Thanks again.

Alex

[sreidvt]

Hi Alex,

I'm afraid that I haven't used a 135 with the M8. It would not be my first choice for a lens of that focal length.

Yes, you can use the M8's framelines as indicators for leveling.

Cheers,

Sean

[jaapv]

You might try out the 2.8/135 with goggles. It can be coded and of course 180 is a rather traditional focal length.

[rvaubel]

Sean

Quite frankly, the only real question mark as regards the . M8 is its low light capabilities. And the only thing that will convince me is a DNG file shot at 2500 & 1250. The higher level noise reduction software programs can work wonders with files that haven't been already screwed up by overly aggressive in camera sharpening and noise reduction algorithms.

GIVE US THE RAW TRUTH!

Rex
,,meow

[rolo]

Hi jlw,

If someone else gets samples up first, that's one less thing on my "to do" list.

Cheers,

Sean

Sean.

There's another minefield ahead. Every man and his dog will be uploading images of unknown integrity for us all to review.

It would be very useful to see images with shooting parameters detailed, of any type, by a competant tester. Doesn't need a narrative.

If a user uploads and doesn't inform if the auto white balance was active, or whether it started life as a jPeg or RAW ...... etc... we'll not be able to trust the images presented, maybe.

Be good if you can drop something of known quantity into this simmerimg pot.

[Peter Klein]

Sean: First off, thank you so much for keeping us posted about this. As I've said before, you're one of the good guys!

Let me add an "amen" to jlw and John Camp's suggestions about posting an initial file or two taken on a tripod with a known good lens (maybe a 50 Summicron, as most of us know what that lens "looks" like). And a high ISO file or two. Just something for us to peruse while you write and test carefully, that takes lens quality and camera shake out of the equation.

In your review, I'd hope you'll do an A/B shot of the same subject with the M8 and the R-D1, using the same lens and the same subject size in the image.

We live in exciting times! :-)

--Peter

[skimmel]

Sean:

Any chance of comparing images from film vs digital using the same lens?

Do you think this is even a reasonable comparison?

[JohnL]

BTW, I don't have a shoot scheduled for next weekend (10/28 & 29) so I'd be happy to meet up with people somewhere near SE VT.
However much I'd like to, I don;t think I can make it from Sao Paulo :(

[lxlim]

Sean and Jaap, thanks!

I hope I will be able to try out the 135f2.8. The leica scene in my country is quite rarified here and no trying out of the equipment. In fact, at the leica launch only new products were available, so I was not able to figure out the pros and cons wrt DSLR vs RF for the 135mm.

[sreidvt]

Sean: First off, thank you so much for keeping us posted about this. As I've said before, you're one of the good guys!

Let me add an "amen" to jlw and John Camp's suggestions about posting an initial file or two taken on a tripod with a known good lens (maybe a 50 Summicron, as most of us know what that lens "looks" like). And a high ISO file or two. Just something for us to peruse while you write and test carefully, that takes lens quality and camera shake out of the equation.

In your review, I'd hope you'll do an A/B shot of the same subject with the M8 and the R-D1, using the same lens and the same subject size in the image.

We live in exciting times! :-)

--Peter

Hi Peter,

Thanks very much. I will be doing direct comparisons between the M8 and both the R-D1 and Canon 5D (for part 3 in the series).

Cheers,

Sean

[sreidvt]

Sean:

Any chance of comparing images from film vs digital using the same lens?

Do you think this is even a reasonable comparison?

Hi Steve,

I know that would be of interest to many and I'm sure someone will do this. It won't be me, however, for two reasons:

1. There are a lot of potential confounding variables
2. Any testing with film is very time consuming and I have a long list of articles that need to be done (not only the M8 but many new lens articles as well).

Best,

Sean

[skimmel]

Hi Steve,

I know that would be of interest to many and I'm sure someone will do this. It won't be me, however, for two reasons:

1. There are a lot of potential confounding variables
2. Any testing with film is very time consuming and I have a long list of articles that need to be done (not only the M8 but many new lens articles as well).

Best,

Sean

Thanks Sean. Makes sense.

I agree also that it would be a different type of comparison versus comparing 2 lenses or comparing two digital cameras. The confounding variables are huge -- the extra variable of scan quality itself makes this tough. For me, I guess the real question will be how film vs digital M compare in print form as this will be the key to my decision about switching from film M to digital M. And this is not something that can be demonstrated on the web. (Of course, there is a strong likelihood that if the quality of the digital M is as high as expected, the temptation may be strong enough to overcome the anxiety of parting with so much money! :o )

[jaapv]

Thanks Sean. Makes sense.

I agree also that it would be a different type of comparison versus comparing 2 lenses or comparing two digital cameras. The confounding variables are huge -- the extra variable of scan quality itself makes this tough. For me, I guess the real question will be how film vs digital M compare in print form as this will be the key to my decision about switching from film M to digital M. And this is not something that can be demonstrated on the web. (Of course, there is a strong likelihood that if the quality of the digital M is as high as expected, the temptation may be strong enough to overcome the anxiety of parting with so much money! :o )

Finally! Somebody else said it as well. The print quality counts and web images are - well... web images. So true your post :)

[skimmel]

Finally! Somebody else said it as well. The print quality counts and web images are - well... web images. So true your post :)

I agree that scaled-down images for the web are hard to judge. I think that electronic images can be assessed and compared with each other quite well by seasoned reviewers, especially since they have the full-scale images. I use both film and digital (DSLR) and have found over the years that I am getting better and better at judging how a print will look based on what I see on my screen (often looking at 100%).

For a digital vs. film comparison I think Sean is write -- there are just too many variables. I think prints are the best way to try to level the playing field for this type of comparison (with the caveat that there are variables at play with printing too!).

Ultimately, it's a combination of assessment techniques that I find most helpful in helping me to make a decision about a purchase.

[jlw]

Finally! Somebody else said it as well. The print quality counts and web images are - well... web images. So true your post :)

What if you never make prints? Sad but true, I almost never print my images any more. For publication, I deliver them on a CD or FTP them to the printer. (Yes, I suppose publication counts as "printing," but the process is so different from photo printing that it introduces a whole new batch of, to borrow the elegant phrase introduced into this discussion by Sean, confounding variables.)

For friends-and-family viewing, I put the images on a web server or make DVDs that people can watch on their TV sets. The web images are available to download for people who want to send them to online labs for prints (I've tried this and the quality seems quite good) but, somewhat to my surprise, hardly anybody ever does this. Most people say they're perfectly happy viewing the images on their computer monitors.

[jaapv]

What if you never make prints? Sad but true, I almost never print my images any more. For publication, I deliver them on a CD or FTP them to the printer. (Yes, I suppose publication counts as "printing," but the process is so different from photo printing that it introduces a whole new batch of, to borrow the elegant phrase introduced into this discussion by Sean, confounding variables.)

For friends-and-family viewing, I put the images on a web server or make DVDs that people can watch on their TV sets. The web images are available to download for people who want to send them to online labs for prints (I've tried this and the quality seems quite good) but, somewhat to my surprise, hardly anybody ever does this. Most people say they're perfectly happy viewing the images on their computer monitors.

Sigh- a sign of our sorry times?

[pstevenin]

Sean,

You are a lucky man. As always, I look forward to reading the results of your tests which usually end up costing me money:D



I'm in the same bucket. My bank account does not like you Sean, but I'll probably check my mail every hour this WE, talented man...

[skimmel]

For friends-and-family viewing, I put the images on a web server or make DVDs that people can watch on their TV sets. The web images are available to download for people who want to send them to online labs for prints (I've tried this and the quality seems quite good) but, somewhat to my surprise, hardly anybody ever does this. Most people say they're perfectly happy viewing the images on their computer monitors.

What program do you use to make DVDs for TV viewing?

[sreidvt]

I'm in the same bucket. My bank account does not like you Sean, but I'll probably check my mail every hour this WE, talented man...

Thanks but there's no need to do that. Part 2 will probably be up Monday.

Cheers,

Sean

[jlw]

What program do you use to make DVDs for TV viewing?

Apologies to other readers for veering off-topic, but this is where the question was asked, so I thought I'd answer it here:

I work on a Mac and use a $50 program called Photo to Movie 4 (available for Mac or Windows; link here) (http://www.lqgraphics.com/) to sequence the photos and add transitions, zooms, motion, titles, etc. iPhoto and iMove, which come included on Macs, can do similar effects, but Photo to Movie makes a higher-quality final file because it retains more of the original image's resolution.

When the movie is finished, Photo to Movie automatically passes the finished movie file to iDVD (comes with Macs) which preps it for DVD burning. I set the options so the movie auto-plays when inserted into the DVD player -- can't get much more grandma-friendly than that!

Once the DVDs are done, I design a simple label (usually using one of the photos on the disc) and print it onto the printable discs using my Epson R-800 printer. (I bought this printer for printing photos, but mostly use it for printing CDs and DVDs!)

This makes a nice-looking finished product that people seem to appreciate, and the discs cost very little to make. Encoding the first DVD takes several hours -- but once it has been encoded, iDVD will spit out further duplicates in 10 or 15 minutes apiece, so in one evening I can make enough discs to give everyone who attended a party, event, or whatever.

[skimmel]

Thanks JLW. I realize that was off-topic but I appreciate the opportunity to get your advice.