M8 or 4/3?

[ray_g]

Let's see...

If in the very near future, I can buy a Leica 50/1.4 ASPH lux for the 4/3 mount, would the "rangefinder experience," shall we say, of the M8 be worth the extra $$$?

Just thinking out loud.

[photogdave]

If you have the means, yes.
You will be able to use the 25mm 1.4 (I'm assuming this is the lens you are refering to) on an Olympus E body or the Panasonic/Leica L1/Digilux 3.
The only one of these bodies with a decent viewfinder is the E1 - an excellent DSLR with fine image quality - but still a DSLR. The other Olympus bodies are not really worth discussing (compared to Leicas etc.), leaving the LC1. Smaller than the E cameras, it's still fairly bulky and the viewfinder quite small and dim. I've seen some prints and it makes very nice images, with the LiveView feature giving it some unique shooting abilities, but it would still be second fiddle compared to the M8.

[Trius]

Without much direct experience with the E-System, I would agree with Dave. The first time I handled an E-1 I was so disappointed with the viewfinder. The second time, not so much. After using RFs and OMs, smaller, dimmer viewfinders are a let-down. See my tagline under my avatar: Waiting on Maitani. He needs to come out of retirement and make a 4/3 body that lives up to the tradition.

[Nachkebia]

Should I eat apple or cookie? :)

[sebastel]

have apple pie.

[Matthew]

Should I eat apple or cookie? :)
Exactement.

[jaapv]

On the riskof being thought negativist: I had the M8, Digilux3 and Digilux2 and V-lux1 side by side at the Photokina and I must say I was not impressed by the Digilux 3. Rather lumpy due to the immense lens, the ergonomics of the body are close to the Digilux2 but frankly, I prefer an EVF to the 4/3 interpretation of a SLR viewfinder. It cannot hold a candle to the M8 but may well be a nice alternative to a number of mid-range DSLR's. I fear the same will go for the pictorial quality. In fact, I think the Digilux2 was a more coherent and preferable concept. In the end I think the V-lux 1 is a much more succesful do-everything camera at a far more attractive price. and the M8 is in a totally different range.

[Toby]

I find the idea of the 4/3 format an enticing concept, because I've shot a lot of 6x7 in the past and hate the format of the 35mm frame for vertical shooting. The problem is that the sensor is a bit small and the system is still a bit limited lens wise, plus of course you can't hire lenses easily like you can with nikon or canon. I think there still is a vacancy for a modern digital replacement RF but some thing more akin to a digital contax G2. I would like to see a viewfinder camera with autofocus and a simple focus confirmation light in the viewfinder - I don't really see the need for a rangefinder in this type of camera - surely even a manual M mount camera could have focus confirmation like pentax MEF's had 25 years ago and do away with expense of the rangefinder

[jaapv]

I find the idea of the 4/3 format an enticing concept, because I've shot a lot of 6x7 in the past and hate the format of the 35mm frame for vertical shooting. The problem is that the sensor is a bit small and the system is still a bit limited lens wise, plus of course you can't hire lenses.
I agree with the sensor size regarding dynamic range and noise(surpression) but the lens choice is virtually unlimited.The Digilux 3 offers an adapter to fit all Leica R lenses to the camera.

[Toby]

I agree with the sensor size regarding dynamic range and noise(surpression) but the lens choice is virtually unlimited.The Digilux 3 offers an adapter to fit all Leica R lenses to the camera.


But do you have to manually stop down or can you use auto-exposure?

[mervynyan]

Can't comment on M8 or any Leica digitals, but I can certainly recommend E-1 to anyone. The color, DR and build are bar none, the price is a fraction of that of other recent models. I don't see you need to update the digital outfit every two years.

All taken by Zuiko 50/2, for now

http://picasaweb.google.com/drifterphoto/FlowersPlants02

cheers,
mervyn

[ywenz]

Should I eat apple or cookie? :)

More importantly.. subway or taco bell for lunch today?

[Ash]

subway!! !

[Gid]

Are you referring to the 25 1.4 (effective 50 1.4 on 4/3)?

I don't imagine it will be cheap, but you can pick up a new E1 for less than £400 so the overall cost will probably be relatively good. The E1 is a lovely camera (I have 2), but it has its foibles and is obviously bigger than an RF. You can shoot at ISO 3200 if you output in B&W and use a bit of neat image so your low light capabilities are potentially better than the M8. The shutter is very, very, quiet, almost as quiet as an M, so no disadvantage there. It "only" has 5MP, but it uses them well and I've produced prints to the equivalent of A2 that have bags of detail. Its a bit apples and oranges, but if you don't mind the extra size/weight, you've got a potentially winning combination.

[rpsawin]

It sure looks like the 4/3 system is here to stay. Look who is making lens for the platform...Amoung others Leica and Zeiss.

Bob

[back alley]

this oly e1 is an older camera?
and adapters can be found that allow the use of older oly om lenses on it?

sounds pretty good to me.

joe

[Gid]

this oly e1 is an older camera?
and adapters can be found that allow the use of older oly om lenses on it?

sounds pretty good to me.

joe

E1 came out around 2002. Originally around £1350 (what I paid for my first one), it is still just as good a camera as it was then. You can mount, OM lenses, leica R lenses, pentax lenses and Nikon lenses with the appropriate adaptor - drawback is stop down metering.

[mervynyan]

I have the Y/C ring to fit contax/zeiss lens. A or P mode works fine but viewfinder is dimming as you stepping down.

[back alley]

i just read sean reid's review (second opinion) on luminous landscape of the e1.
ounds like a good way to go.

is there a newer version of the e1 now?

joe

[cjago]

is there a newer version of the e1 now?

joe

E3 expected at PMA 2007 with shipping late in the year.

The other 4/3rds models have their own strengths, but they are not fully robust professional cameras. The Pana L1 comes closest, but most people would agree that the viewfinder is poor, and some of the implementation is a bit shaky (their first SLR after all).

I use the E330 a lot with Leica R lenses, but I'm using it in macro Live View B mode, where the screen compensates in brightness for the stop down. I know that some people use it in Live View A mode as a street cam as an alternative to a rangefinder because you can swivel the screen and attach 4/3rds lenses as wide as 7mm (14mm equiv).

I use rangefinders and E-system cameras all the time, but they are not interchangeable.

The E1 is a great SLR. It has oldish autofocus software that means it isn't up to pro sports shooting and it only has 5mp which means not many landscape photographers use it.

[Bob Ross]

But do you have to manually stop down or can you use auto-exposure?
You have to stop down manually to the working aperture, since you lose the auto diaphram, but you can use aperture priority auto exposure. Awkward, but you gain the lens' quality and get constant DOF preview to boot;)
Bob

[jaapv]

You have to stop down manually to the working aperture, since you lose the auto diaphram, but you can use aperture priority auto exposure. Awkward, but you gain the lens' quality and get constant DOF preview to boot;)
Bob

For long tele it is not really an issue, as one uses those wide open most of the time.

[georgl]

I've compared the D3 and the M8 on a Leica-presentation. I've compared some pictures I made on the Mac - the M8 IQ was simply superior. It was sharper, had better colors, less artifacts, less noise... It's a completly dfferent class, even if 8MP vs. 10MP sound like being comparable.
Of course ergonomics and build quality was also superior - as you would expect at this price - but the D3 isn't exactly cheap either...

THe D3 is a simple Panasonic mass-product and has not much to do with Leica.

When you can afford it and you like rangefinders, the M8 will propably give you the best IQ avaible in 35mm-class. And the lenses are even fitted for the future, 35Asph, 50Asph, the Apos, the new Tri (I've watched some RAWs 16mm f4 - nearly perfect), they all have unique optical qualities, ready for even more Megapixels...

[ray_g]

this oly e1 is an older camera?
and adapters can be found that allow the use of older oly om lenses on it?

sounds pretty good to me.

joe
Yes, with stopped down metering. IIRC, the OM zuiko's have the advantage here, as you just need to press the stopdown button on the lens ring right before you shoot rather than turning the aperture ring. Meaning, it is wide open when you focus.

[cjago]

I've compared the D3 and the M8 on a Leica-presentation. I've compared some pictures I made on the Mac - the M8 IQ was simply superior. It was sharper, had better colors, less artifacts, less noise... It's a completly dfferent class, even if 8MP vs. 10MP sound like being comparable.
Of course ergonomics and build quality was also superior - as you would expect at this price - but the D3 isn't exactly cheap either...

THe D3 is a simple Panasonic mass-product and has not much to do with Leica.


The difference is probably more the filtering than the pixel count. All the 4/3rds cameras have anti-aliasing filters. I haven't yet been able to compare M8 pics with a 4/3rds camera, but I have used a DMR. The DMR outshines the 4/3rds cameras for quality of rendition, but the Leica isn't waterproof, doesn't have autofocus, isn't stabilised and so on. You pick the attributes that work for you. Even the humble and aging E1 produces fantastic pictures if you stick to its strengths.

I have the Lumix L1 now (why pay more for the Leica badge). Sure, it comes out of a high volume Panasonic factory, but that doesn't stop it being a terrific camera. The Leica D class isn't trying to be M or R class, but it isn't embarrased by the other makers either. I'm sure that Leica is badging this stuff for straightforward revenue purposes, but that doesn't make it junk. And the Leica / Panasonic thing seems to be a real partnership. For now, they both need the other.

[georgl]

Just like I said, they're different classes. It's not only the AA-filter, it's also the sensor itself, the lens-quality, the precision of the components...
You're right, take the camera that fits your purpose, but many photographers make the wrong decisions because marketing/press tells them they need features that they don't use, that the D3 is a Leica...

I'm not sure about the DMR but the R8/9 is extremly robust, I've used it under various hard conditions, despite the electronic contacts because of the modules (DMR, winder) the camera is very well sealed. The rubber-pieces (?) the seal modules (as with Canon or Nikon) aren't really waterproof at all - you still have to be careful... A little piece of rubber doesn't last for eternity...
Norbert Rosing, a nature photographer specialized on arctic conditions even uses only R8/9 (the R6.2 was unecessary) and Leica-glass under those conditions (arctic temperatures). I'don't know where this myth about lacking weather-sealing comes from!?

[CDT]

I briefly tried out the 4/3rds system with an E-300 this summer and gave it up rather quickly. The lens line up, completely lacking small fast primes, was too limited for me.
I like the crazy penta prism arrangement. The viewfinder is dimmer than a traditional SLR, but the camera fits nicely into a satchel because it doesn't have the bulge on top. I really hate carrying those fat SLR type bags. Not one of those things that pixel peepers mention but a big advantage in real life.
I might get an L1/Digilux 3 if they come up with more lenses, but for now I'll stick with Canon SLRs for which there is a huge range of good cheap primes.

[Bob Ross]

For long tele it is not really an issue, as one uses those wide open most of the time.
True JAAP, I tend to use my older manual lenses at the wider apertures. The only place that I have felt limited is with hand held macros, where I could use some more DOF.
Bob