Alternatives for Leica glass

[SolaresLarrave]

As I blabbered out in some other post, I'll keep the Leica M6TTL body I was going to sell a while ago. However, I have only one lens and my funds are still a bit thin to purchase a Leica 35mm lens. What choices do I have to get a wide angle outside of the Leica universe?

I know there's the LTM Canon and CV lenses, and that the Minolta CLE come with the M-mount. What about Russian glass? Any tips about it?

Thanks a lot in advance!

[taffer]

Francisco, be careful with Russian glass on Leicas. Take a look here:

http://www.dantestella.com/technical/compat.html

However, if you can find a cheap example, you can always try it and check for sharpness.

Good luck ! :)

[back alley]

the 40mm minolta lens is very good and i've seen them occasionally for sale on various sites.

joe

[sobarel]

I'll also give the thumbs up to the Minolta 40/2, an excellent lens often available at bargain prices, but be aware it will bring up the 50 framelines on a Leica. Luckily the previous owner of mine had adapted it to bring up the 35 frame and this has proven to be quite accurate.

The Konica M-Hexanon 35/2 is also a superb lens, if you can still get hold of one.

[SolaresLarrave]

I didn't know there was a Hexanon 35/2? I would have bet my thumbs the lenses for the Hexar RF were only in 28mm, 50mm and 90mm... Well, I learned something today!

Thanks for the warning about Russian glass, taffer. I'm a bit wary of it. About the Minolta 40mm... that's one of my favorites, and I guess if a wider angle doesn't show up, I'll end up buying one from KEH. I simply wanted something wider b/c I already have a lens of that focal lenght: the one on my Canonet! :)

Thanks again for the advice! I'll keep searching.

BTW, anyone know about Alex-photo, a source for Russian glass? Henricus recommended it most enthusiastically... but then he's really into Russian gear.

[sobarel]

The M-Hex 35/2 definitely exists - I was out taking photos with it this morning ;-)

Oh, and I've used Alex-photo via ebay before with no problems.

[Dingo]

Alex-photo is very reliable, I bought a lot from him, and very fast shippment - 5 to 7 days from Russia to Hong Kong !

[SolaresLarrave]

sobarel, thanks for the information. I never heard of that lens before...

So, Alex-photo can only be found on eBay? I'll look him up and tell you what happens. Thansk for the suggestions!

[Taipei-metro]

Avelon 28mm2.8 $300, Ricoh GR 28mm2.8 $450, Konica M 28mm2.8 $800.
Old one,Rokkor M 28mm2.8 maybe $350.
I have read the test report on Konica M 35mm f2,as expected,Superb! around $750...
For status quo,and to end your photographic journey, Leica 35mm/2 aspherical titanium limited $1,695...

[rpsawin]

I'm currently using two of the CV 35mm lenses: 35/2.5 Skopar and the 35/1.7 Ultron. I like them both but really like the 35/2.5 Skopar. It's small, super fast to focus and produces very good results. And the price is very affordable. While I look forward to the day I can find a 35/2 Summicron or Hexanon at a reasonable price I'm enjoying the two CV's today.

Bob

[SolaresLarrave]

You're right about the Skopar, it's small and most affordable. However, I'm interested in speed. The Skopar is not a slow lens by any means... but what kind of bokeh do you get with it?

This won't be a Leica year for me... Alas! My kingdom for a Summilux 35, or at least a Summicron... :)

[rpsawin]

Francisco,

I've just started scanning some of my B&W negs. I'll post a few shots taken with the Skopar in the near future.

Bob

PS: Take a look at the CV 35/1.2 Nokton. It's supposed to be a fantastic lens and under $900.

Bob

[SolaresLarrave]

Bob, I think I saw your nickname at the famous auction site... Didn't you just purchased a 90mm Minolta Rokkor lens from P. Keyes?

Cyberspace can be pretty scary, huh? ;)

[rpsawin]

Busted....yes, and I expect delivery today. This lilttle beauty will round out my lenses for the M6.

Bob

[SolaresLarrave]

Talking about busted... so were my hopes. Or rather crushed: I placed a bid on a nice 28mm Minolta he had for sale and lost.

Another day, another sale... :rolleyes:

[SolaresLarrave]

Time to bump this thread!

I have a small dilemma: on the one hand, I can lay my hands on a CV 35 f1.7 Ultron for almost $400 (including adapter ring for M-mount), on the other, I'm being offered a Summicron-like black Canon 35mm f2 for $300. What would you choose? Why? I need some help but later I won't blame anyone on the choice I make. Honest! :D

[taffer]

Ok, never tried any of them, but you could have in mind a couple of things in order to choose:

- Quality and condition: If one is clearly far better than the other, well then why choose the 'worst' one ? ;)

- Price, $100 difference but the Canon is a LTM one, no ? Then you'll need to invest some more extra bucks in the M adapter.

- That extra f stop.

- Let's see, $100 is equal to a couple of mint good FSU RFs, probably 2-5 FSU lenses depending on model and condition, public transport travel cards for 4 months, a new hard disk drive for the computer, and so on, sure you can think on more interesting things to buy/do for $100. But it's up to you to decide if you want to spend or save that extra bucks, I don't want to feel guilty later :p

- And of course, real user opinions and experiences. My only 35 is my strange and not very used Jupiter-12, and now there's also the 40mm of the Canonet.

Anyway let us know ! What happened with the 40mm Minolta you were looking for ? You can still look for another one on eBay or second hand store.

[SolaresLarrave]

Oscar, the voice of common sense! :D

I got photos from the Canon lens (which has a fairly good reputation among leicaphiles). It looks pristine, and the owner doesn't use it as much as his wider angle CV 21mm. Still...

I'll need to spend cash on the adapter, no matter which lens I buy, that's a problem. :(

Yes... the additiona f-stop is tempting... :(

About the 100 bucks? It may be the price of peace of mind. But then I must tell you something: the CV Ultron has the annoying habit of falling apart on you (literally). I've read about some cases in which the front component starts getting loose until it nearly falls off the camera, and fixing it oneself takes some skills I don't have (I read a detailed account of how one guy put his back together on his dining room table with optical screwdrivers). Scary, huh?

Well, on the other hand, I could keep bidding on a 28mm Minolta lens on eBay. I lost one already to a Chinese bidder but then, there's always more!

Thanks for the input. I guess I'll have to give it more thought. It simply happens that, for La Boquería market in BCN, I would like a nice, wide angle lens. What do you think?

[rover]

Francisco, I have the Ultron without problems after about a year. That said I am pretty easy on my equipment. Also, if I had it to do again I would pass on the Ultron and get the Classic Skopar, which is slower I know. I actually think that my second choice would be the Canon 35, which tend to command a bit of a premium due to scarcity. The best solution probably is the Minolta 28 in my mind bang for the buck.

[taffer]

Scary indeed, I thought only russian lenses fell apart ! :p

If the Canon 35 is a good lens with proved good reputation and is pristine as you said then maybe it's the way to go, and at f2 is still pretty fast too.

If you're not going to sleep well due to that extra $100 then the choice is still easier. Grab whatever makes you feel better!

I have a free pdf newsletter I downloaded some months ago from the 37th frame, that has some 35 mm lens reviews and also some words praising the virtues of that focal length. You can find it here. It's the last link, free sample issue (pdf).

http://www.37thframe.com/subscribe.htm


And now there's no way I could be against the copyright anymore :)

[SolaresLarrave]

Oscar, as the Rubén Blades' song goes, "life will surprise you". When I asked the Canon lens seller about the good, ole fashioned and always trusted "money back" guarantee... he said that given the Paypal and shipping expenses and loss of funds involved, he wouldn't offer any $ back. He claims his lens is beyond doubt in perfect and pristine shape, but I don't question the lens at all, I'd just like to know that I can get my money back in case something goes awry... which can happen since he'd be shipping the lens all the way from (clearing throat) Tokyo, in Japan.

How do you like'em apples? :D

Oh, well, I guess I'll spend the additional $100, but now I can decide to do it later, shortly before dealing with those Boquería shots.

And thanks a big lot for the article! I don't think you're doing anything wrong. It'd be really bad news if you had said to be the author, at least to me... I'll keep you posted!

[taffer]

Waaa, no good. In this case that $100 ARE the price of peace of mind. The kind of peace of mind you get when you know you can have some kind of warranty.

Only one thing, why don't take a look at some reviews for that 35/2.5 Rover said? It's $219 new in cameraquest, add the price for the adapter and you are still below the AS IS canon price.

Decisions are always the most difficult part, hehe.

And no, I don't use to write that kind of things, now if we were talking of El Quijote I could tell you my friend how that guy Cervantes stole the whole idea from me a bunch of years ago... :p

It would be nice to get the second part of that review though, but I downloaded it just for curiosity before getting my Jupiter-12 and soon forgot it in the pdfs folder.

Edit: I finally found that pdf on the original site. It's the last link of the "subscribe" page.

[rover]

Speaking of the CV Ultron, have you guys seen this auction which simply never will end? I have seen this listing for 2 months probably, simply priced not to sell.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2980684448&category=30063

[SolaresLarrave]

Oscar, the Skopar looks good, pricewise, but then, I'm after speed in this case, and while the Skopar can be considerate fairly good at f2.5, it certainly cannot beat a f1.7 lens. It's on my short list nonetheless...

Rover, I had that auction in my watch list until I got tired of seeing it... and also when I found out the price this lens goes for in the US I considered myself insulted. One of these days I'll send them a message with information about the prices an Ultron fetches here. In fact, I don't think those prices are correct in Canadian dollars!

Time to keep looking! :)

[back alley]

franciso,

don't get too hung up on speed. there are always faster films and one of the obvious beauties of the rangefinder is being able to shoot at slower speeds.
my mamiya lens are very slow, and i consistantly shoot handheld at 1/30th of a sec with good results.

just think of all the film the savings will buy.

joe

[SolaresLarrave]

joe, it's true. I've been a bit surprised when I see how, comparatively, slow those Mamiya lenses are.

I guess I'll shift gears and start looking for the Skopar. I just saw one on eBay. I'll keep you updated! Thanks for the advice!

[SolaresLarrave]

Well, sobarel, any hints as to how the Konica behaves, because I just sent a check for one.

To think I was looking for inexpensive choices... :(

But I don't regret it. These lenses are hard to come by, and they're pretty much Leica quality and a great deal in value.

[rover]

Hey, cool beans. A 50 Hex was offered for sale earlier today on Photo.net. I am sure the 35 will be all that you expect it to be.

[SolaresLarrave]

Actually, rover, the 35, together with a 'cron 50/2 came up for sale yesterday at photo.net. The 'cron was gone in a snap, within hours, so after a loooooong difficult night, I chose to snap the Hexanon today.

I'm a new poor man... :( But heck, life is too short to spend it thinking about what could be and would be and can be and all that jazz.

[back alley]

congrats franciso!
i love a 35 mm lens on a 35mm camera. seems to be the perfect mate and just exactly how my vision sees the world.

but now i want something new to play with too...

joe

[sobarel]

Francisco - I don't really have any tips for using the M-Hex just because it's been uniformly great for everything I've tried. I particularly like the smooth bokeh (if I can use that word) which seems to be a common feature with all the Konica lenses. Totally sharp where you need it, and the build quality is easily up to Leica's standards.

In short, I'm sure you won't be disappointed!

[Doug]

Francisco, I expect you're going to love that Hexar 35! From what I hear it's at least on a par optically with the pre-ASPH Summicron and the CLE's M-Rokkor 40mm, so this is rarified territory, quality-wise.

While bottom-feeding can be fun, as with Ukrainian/Russian gear, I'm usually willing to bite the bullet on price for a quality item in a tradeoff over quantity. User enjoyment over many satisfying years of outstanding service is its own reward!

[SolaresLarrave]

That's one thing I considered during the long, night hours of pondering whether to go for this lens or an Ultron. I like bokeh, so... why not! Gulp :eek: You should have seen the dip my checkbook balance took... :(

But then, as you say, Doug, bottom feeding can be fun... and it is! The dilemma comes at moments like this, when you have to take into account quality and long years of satisfactory service. I guess I did right. Let's see how the first shots turn out...

[taffer]

Congrats Francisco ! I really doubt you'll regret that decision. Konica glass seems to be a sure value. Let us know about your new acquisition ok ?!?!

And yes, bottom feeding is fun... but then, after enjoying so much your Kiev 4am you start to realize how much you'll like a more Contax-like Kiev II, BUT then you think that why not getting a 'real' Contax II after all...

You know that 'lo barato sale caro', so, investing a bit more in quality you're getting peace of mind ! ;)

[Chrischung]

Ricoh GR 28mm2.8 has dark corners. not recommend.
Minolta 28mm/2.8 is easy to found small white spots behind the front elements, but does not affect picture quality.
:)

[SolaresLarrave]

Chrischung, thanks for your endorsement of the Minolta. I placed bids for two... or was it three auctions on eBay, only to lose them all at the very last minute. At the end, I ended up buying a Konica Hexanon from a photo.net forum member, and it should be coming soon.

Thanks for the warning about the Ricoh, though. There were two for sale while I was shopping, but the prices were a bit on the outrageous side...

[Taipei-metro]

The Konica M 35mm/2 is very smooth w/excellent color and image depth,but seemed not as sharp as Nikkor 35/2.8 ti.
I am re-reading a 4 camera shoot-out, T3,Klasse,TC-1 and Gr1-v in Compact Camera Magazine(From Japan, Nov.2002 issue),with photos taken by the GR1-v which did not show any corner fall out.Also several photos printed on p36-42,p112,113 by GR 28mm/2.8 did not show any fall-out either.So I don't know.
GR 28 is not a cheap lens either.1 US dollars used to buy 200 yen,today,1-29-04, the exchange rate is 106.87 Yen.
One Avenon 28mm/3.5 L or M mount which was mentioned in Stephen Gandy site worth a research.

[Chrischung]

It is only my experience to use Ricoh GR28mm with dark conners and less sharpness.The lens is expensive in Hong Kong, also and the cost could enough to buy a 2nd hand Elmarit 28mm (3rd version).

I have no experience in using Konica 28mm and Avenob 28mm, I'm waiting for reports from you all.

Infact, I like the CV Skopar 28mm/3.5 more than others.

Chris

[SolaresLarrave]

The big debate right now is centered on the Minolta 40mm and the framelines it triggers on a Leica body.

Meanwhile, my Hexanon was shipped yesterday from CT. I can't wait!!! :) :) :)

[Chrischung]

Usually, I use the 35mm and guess the image something smaller when using the Summicron/Elmarit/Rokkor-M 40mm on my M4-P. In most time, I use these lenses on my CLE or CL bodies.

[SolaresLarrave]

Well, the Hexanon arrived and now I'm trying to close a deal with a guy selling an Elmar f4 LTM (aka "Screw Mount"). Any further comments, Brian?

[Brian Sweeney]

The Elmar is nice. It is longer than you might think, because it is not a "Telephoto" design; but is an "Tessar-type" four element lens with a 90mm focal length. It is light, and the focus is smooth. All of the other manufacturers had their versions of it; and are now rare. Nikon had the 10.5cm F4 Nikkor-T in S-Mount and F-Mount. Canon had the 100mm F4 in LTM. The Nikkor goes for BIG bucks 600~700.

I picked up the Canon last night in my other open window for $91 last night reading this column. It had the case, finder, and caps. It will make up to the Canon 7 for the M3 getting the Elmar, and I can blame you guys for pushing me over the edge.

It looked in great shape; if it is, a nice "comparison" will be in order. Yes... that is why I needed it... comparison of Uncoated Leica Elmar vs Coated Canon Serenar... Yes... Blame Thread...

Did I ever mention that I am really bad?:bang:

[bmattock]

I have several LTM 135 lenses that I've picked up "for comparison purposes" (yeah, sure, snort). I have two Canon 135 f3.5's in chrome (but not marked "Serenar"), one Canon 135 f3.5 in black, one Kyoei Super-Acall 135 f3.5 and one Leica Hektor 135 f4.5.

I took them out on my balcony, screwed my Bessa R onto a tripod, and tried a variety of shots, from wide-open to closed down tight at infinity. Should have shot some short and medium-range shots as well, but there you go, I forgot.

I had a very hard time telling the negs apart - except for the Hektor. I was surprised.

I had bought the Hektor to use on a Zorki 4K before I got the Bessa R (and the Zorki fell apart; literally). The Hektor would not mount on my Zorki anyway, the focus tab snags the rangefinder foot on the Zorki and knocks it out of alignment. I paid, as I recall, $45 for the Hektor on eBay - it has some light scratches on the front element. All in all, I had not been impressed with it, and put it back in it's plastic tube and ignored it.

However, after testing...

The pictures from the Hektor were VERY different from the pictures from the Canon's and Kyoei on the same roll of film. First of all, it was better wide-open then the others. Of course, wide-open on the Hektor is 4.5, not 3.5. Second, the colors were more intense, and contrast was, for lack of a better word, creamier. After scanning the negs at 2800 dpi on the Minolta Dual Scan III, the black Canon 135 was the clear winner for 'sharpness' or 'acuity' in terms of objects being identifiable after severe blow-up. But I really liked the overall look of the Hektor MUCH better!

The Hektor is much lighter in weight than the Kyoei or the WOW heavy chrome Canons, but it is a bit longer.

I'm sorry I don't have the test images to post, but I'm in Baltimore right now. I plan to do more tests as soon as I can.

I suspect that the Hektor is non-coated, but perhaps I'm wrong. In any case, I sure like it better than the Canons for the character of the color and the overall feeling it gives.

Sorry to be so subjective, but just my 2 cents...

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

[SolaresLarrave]

Well... all is said and done. You guys are to blame for my fall into the realm of "old, non-coated" lenses. I mailed a check for the lens, and Paypal-ed funds to Stephen Gandy to get the adapter ring.

Now, if those shots ain't creamy and warm... I'll put the whole, entire and absolute responsibility on you two! :) :D

JK!!!

Thanks for your very useful 0.02, Bill. They're worth a small fortune!!

[Brian Sweeney]

Bill,
I know what you mean about the Hektor. I have the Nikkor 13.5cm in LTM; a different look. I keep it on the Canon; and the Hektor on the M3. I also picked up a Steinhel 13.5 F4.5 in LTM that I need to test out.

The 135's go for a song. I picked up a 13.5 Nikkor for the S3 for $45! It was the later black model. At those prices, I do not feel guilty about picking them up for comparison. I have a "kit" for the M3, S3, and Canon 7. I can grab a camera bag with any of the trhee with a Fast normal, 85 or 90, and 135. Each has their own "personality".

Francisco, you are going to love the Elmar. If you do not; I will send you the Jupiter-9 8.5cm f2 in LTM, 1979 vintage, for a comparison and you can send me back the one you don't want.

[SolaresLarrave]

Brian, I may take you up on your offer... Although more for curiosity about shooting with a Jupiter than anything else.

Of course, your generosity has earned you a lot of admiration on this side of paradise! :)

[taffer]

The back element from the J-12 is indeed scaring. Messing up your Bessa or Leica shutter for a $50 lens is definitely not a good policy...

I've seen some pictures taken with an M6 and the Jupiter, so I asume that's possible, probably the best way to know it is leaving your shutter open at B and then carefully mount the lens in place to see how deep it arrives.

Once in place it's a nice compact lens, but that awkward f-stop ring is a bit annoying. I'm planning in doing some tiny paint marks on both lens barrel and the border of that ring, to have adjustments for f8 and f4 without having to look INSIDE the lens.

Then there are those recognized flare problems too...

But after all, it looks kinda nice :)

[taffer]

BTW, I've just seen this auction and thought that maybe some of you could be interested, a Nokton 1.5 in LTM. Is it a good deal ?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=30063&item=2985588884

I know nothing at all from that seller, only followed the "other items" link from one of my tracked items :)

[Brian Sweeney]

I am giving away my favorite fishing holes.

Midwest Photo Exchange has a Nikkor 3.5cm F3.5 LTM in 8++ (about an 8.5/10 if you remember Del's, or EX if you know KEH) for $185. I have the 3.5cm F2.5 for my S3. You will not have to worry about the shutter.

This is where I picked up my 5cm F1.4 Nikkor in LTM.

http://www.mpex.com/current_index.htm

[SolaresLarrave]

Taffer, when I saw photos of the 35mm Jupiter lens, I backed out. As you have said, it's scary how far it goes. I looked at my Leica body and the room between the lens mount and the shutter curtain is kinda limited. Even though the adapter ring adds a bit of distance, the risk was too high for me, so I went for a Konica lens instead.

Now, I've observed the back of the Jupiter 9 lenses, and they seem pretty reasonable.

Speaking of favorite fishing holes... take a look at whan Koh's Camera has to offer too. I got my Contax G1 from them: body and Planar 45mm lens, about a year ago, for the wonderful sum of $435 (shipping included). Granted, it was a user (cosmetics at about 8, perhaps), but it's still kicking well and strong!

Try contacting Jeff Cole, the manager (who is an admirably nice guy!) at www.kohscamera.com. :D

[rover]

taffer, I looked at that auction too and decided no for a couple reasons. First, 50 Noktons sell new at Central Camera in Chicago and B&H in NYC for only $340. I think the current price is high for a reconditioned lens, I would look for more of a discount. Next I have never heard of what this "class b" status is. Who knows what was wrong with the lens. Finally, there is no current formal distributor for Cosina products in the US. Folks like Steve Gandy of cameraquest.com and Photo Village in NYC import the products directly from Cosina and apparently have relationships with Cosina, but the warranties they offer are specific to only products they sell. THK was a former distributor of Cosina products, but that relationship has been severed. Personally I conservatively will believe that THK will not honor any warrenty on Cosina products, particularly for this transaction which will be after their formal relationship with Cosina has ended.

[taffer]

Thanks for the advice Rover, I was just wondering what the next step after russian glass should be and when I saw this auction I found it interesting. CV products are way EXPENSIVE here, both Bessa R and R2, around 600€, 425€ for that Nokton.

Of course I someday I get some CV camera or lens I won't probably buy it here :)

Not that I'm going to change my shooting basis in a short term, as I've just started with RFs, and in fact I like to use both my LTM and Contax mount cameras.

BTW, is there any 'reasonable' adapter solution to use Contax mount lenses on LTM bodies? I've heard of the Cook & Perkins, but nowadays it's more a collector's item than anything.

Best !