View Full Version : BW film developing - drying marks
Hi Everyone out there,
I develop my own bw pictures, in my small tank kitchen sink type photo lab, everything is fine apart from the occasional drying marks on the negative. I even use a photo flo like thing (Jessops wetting agent) but that does not help either.
The most annoying thing is that sometimes it's ok, sometimes not.
Any idea?
Many thanks and happy shooting,
Berci
I do my own B&W, and I usually don't have problems with drying marks. I use Kodak photo-flo, but also gently wipe the negs prior to drying, using fingers only.
You might try adding some alcohol to the final photo-flo bath. I've heard that also helps.
I think people recommend about 30% of alcohol in the mix - don't remember exactly....
Denis
pshinkaw
01-11-2005, 07:42
Try and do a final rinse in distilled water, just a simple pass-thru. Then dilute your wetting agent in distilled water. Your tap water probably has a high solids content.
-Paul
Krasnaya_Zvezda
01-11-2005, 08:05
I use Kodak Photo-Flo, I let the negs drip-dry, I don't touch them with anything. Have never had any drying marks (yet). My guess with the sometimes-ok-sometimes-not problem is there must be a variable somewhere, maybe the strength of the mixture of the jessops (if you mix it ala photo-flo, I have never tried it so I don't know if it's the same), or do conditions vary where you hang the negs to dry? Just some simple ideas, which you've probably already considered.
I use a final bath in the dilution of wetting agent (Agfa Agepon), then squeegee the negs. I used the recommended quantity of one cap of wetting agent in 1 l of tap water and when saw some drying marks replaced the wetting agent dilution.
You can also try with distilled one but my tap water has a high solid content and worked fine though.
If they're whitish, irregularly shaped streaks, then yes, they're probably from minerals dissolved in the water. The annoying thing about these is that they're almost impossible to remove!... film cleaner etc. will not get them out.
Removing all excess water with a squeegee or fingers helps somewhat, but sometimes I still got drying marks and sometimes I'd scratch the film.
What solved the problem for me was alcohol. Once I was plastered, the marks didn't bother me at all. No, seriously... as denishr posted above, adding some isopropyl alcohol to the final wetting-agent rinse will solve the problem.
BUT... 30% is 'way too much! Try about 1% of your water volume -- i.e., if you mix up 500ml of wetting agent/water mixture for your final rinse, add about 5 ml of isopropyl alcohol to it. If that doesn't get rid of the marks, try a little more -- but you want to use the least amount possible.
The reason I say the least amount possible is that I have no idea of the possible archival effects of using isopropyl alcohol in the final rinse -- so I figure that the less you use, the safer you are.
Before I started doing this, I almost always had mineral marks on my films. But ever since, they've been sparkling clean. It's worth a try...
I once used Calbe F905 Plus but had severe drying marks even with a higher dilution as recommended (normal water used). Since then I only use a last bath in distilled water, nothing else. This works fine but not really 100%. Sometimes there are still some slight marks. In scans from the negative they are to be seen a bit. I do not know if they are visible enlarging to paper.
Maybe I should also give the distilled water plus wetting agent a try.
I also started out with using wetting agents, but quit doing so a few years ago - what I got wasn't drying marks from the water (I use distilled), but chemical marks from the wetting agent... Usually the dilutions recommended on the packages are much too high, if you absolutely must use a wetting agent, use at most something like 2 to 3 drops per liter of water.
I personally only use distilled water for the final rinse, with nothing else added; to minimize the risk of having dust baked into the wet emulsion (I don't let a squeegee closer than 1 km to my negs ;) ), I give them a few spins in a salad spinner (film still on the real, use a piece of thread or a wooden stick to keep the film reel perpendicular to the axis od spinning and put a second empty reel on the other end, as a counterweight; crazy as this may sound, it works: after a minute of spinning, the film comes out almost dry to the touch; this idea was popularized on various German photo lab forums and online-mags a few years ago...).
Roman
Ok, here I go. I use Photo-flo for a wash. BUT, for my final rinse, I do this.
I put 1 drop of dishwashing liquid in my canister and fill it with water. I remove all the suds and drop my film on the rolls in there as a the final, final wash. I swish for 30 seconds, remove, shake the rolls, remove neg's then squeege with my fingers. 30 rolls going and NO marks!
I learned this trick from an old pro who has been developing since the 50's....
digitalox
01-11-2005, 09:50
Ha ha ask a simple question and you get a gazillion different answers. I've not seen drying marks on my negs for quite some time now, here's my .02
1) after the rinse, I add a few drops of kodak photo-flo into the tank. I put the drops into a very small container and run water into this and let it overflow into the tank, so it gets all the photo-flo mixed up real good. Sometimes I use distilled, sometimes not, haven't noticed a difference either way.
2) Swirl solution around ~5 secs.
3) Let stand ~25 secs.
4) Drain, Take reel out. Shake really hard, in a whipping motion towards the tub which ejects much of the water.
(Be careful if you are using MF - it tends to pop out of the reel - not that I would know :). Careful on this part.)
5) Take neg out. Cut off excess, especially from the top (you don't need any extra moisture dripping down). I have a very nice, smooth squeegee just for negs that I got at the photo store. With the negs hanging I give them one quick squeegee from top to bottom.
Now the neg is practically dry from the naked eye. Maybe a thin surface of dampness but no excess water. I still leave them hanging overnight just to be safe. Good luck.
friends in other states have used their brita pitcher to get water for the final bath. that and some photo-flo should be enough. i'm lucky, i can get away with only tap water and photo-flo. =)
Lucky for me I live in the world's top city (over 1 million in population) for water purity.
Here's my $0.02:
For 35mm and 120 after fixing the film, I give the film three tank-fill quick washes.
I wash the film hypo-clearing agent for four minutes.
Wash the film for 15 minutes (longer if I used Hypam).
Drain tank, place two drops of Agfa wetting agent per 35mm film or three drops per 120 down the middle of the spiral axial, fill gently with water to cover the top most spiral. But here's the important bit.
DON'T MAKE THE SOLUTION GO SOAPY
Spin the spirals slowly to mix up the solution. Let it stand for one minute.
Change the solution to another clean container (but not your water jug, developer, stop or fix mixing jugs) and soak your film squeegee in this.
Remove film from spiral, hold the film at arm's length and pour the wetting agent solution down the strip of film. If you're not 6 foot 2 like I am, cut the film in half.
End of part one...
Stu :)
...part two...
Wash and dry your hands. If your hands get damp or wet during the process below, dry them again.
Squeegee the film twice opposite ways, holding the squeegee at a 45-60º angle. If there is any more drops of water on film, one more swipe with the squeegee should do it.
Hang the film up and dry the film. I use a squirrel cage fan (search photo.net) film dryer now.
Wash your squeegee and dry well and put it back in it's box.
Go make coffee and fire up the enlarger and developing trays.
Squeegee Rules.
Have a different squeegee for each size of film you use- i.e. one for 35mm and one for 120. NEVER squeegee 4x5, a super clean synthetic sponge works better.
Get a multi-bladed squeegees are best. Looking the profile they have a W layout of rubber blades.
Keep a close on eye on the condition of your rubber blades, soon as they start to break down or cut, throw it in the rubbish. At my current rate I go through 2-3 35mm squeegees a year.
Keep the plastic box that in comes to store the squeegee when not in use. Rinse the squeegee in running water and soak the squeegee in wetting agent. When finished, wash and throughly dry the squeegee before returning to it's clean box.
A cared squeegee is a good friend, abuse it and it will turn into a monster one day and ruin your lovely exposures without warning.
Stu :)
PS. I don't think I've ever used the word Squeegee so many times before!
Honu-Hugger
01-11-2005, 15:50
Originally posted by pshinkaw
Try and do a final rinse in distilled water, just a simple pass-thru. Then dilute your wetting agent in distilled water. Your tap water probably has a high solids content.
-Paul
I do the same as Paul with no problems (I use Kodak Photo-Flo, never had the occasion to try anything else). I probably overkill it a little but I use distilled water for every chemical process, using tap water only for the wash. Almost everyone I know locally uses wipes on their film -- I've never done it out of fear of scratching the negative, but again I'm probably being too cautious. I guess if I ever had a spotting problem I'd try wiping. I bet distilled water will solve your problem.
Good luck!
D2
P. S. Roman, I love the salad spinner idea! I built a dryer from an article in an old copy of Shutterbug -- it's finished but I've never bothered to try it:o I guess the building part was more fun???
I use tap water and a Jobo Cascade to wash and then bath the film in Amaloco H 10 for two minutes. Then I hang my dripping film in the shower to dry.
But I think room temperature and humidity play a role in this process. I turn the shower on to settle the dust and so it takes around four hours for the film to dry. Usualy I leave it hanging over night.
I once had some stains from to much wetting agent, 2-5 ml means 5 ml in hard and 2 in soft water, we have soft water :-)
I'm with Stu on squeegee care! I use a hardening fixer, and a Photo-Flo soak after the wash. I run the shower over the shower stall walls to rinse out any debris... I then hang the roll from the shower-stall crossbar I made, and soak the squeegee in the Photo-Flo soln as I do so and hang the weight on the bottom of the strip. Then I pour the solution down the strip as a final rinse to get rid of any dirt, lint or cat hair, and run the squeegee once down the strip from top to bottom. Close the shower door and let it dry undisturbed. Wash & dry the sqeegee and put it away.
Oh, yeah, and distilled water for mixing the developer, and for the Photo-Flo solution!
oftheherd
01-12-2005, 04:02
OK, first of all, I haven't developed my own roll film in probably 20 or more years. I guess I was just lucky. I don't remember having a problem with deposits, and rarely with water spots. Some of the military craft shops had that type of dryer that used forced heated air. I think that helped run water off to prevent water spots. I also bought a spinner from Spiratone that worked well to force water off and dry.
I never even heard of a salad spinner. I will have to look for one and see how it might be modified. Anyone have a photo of one?
As to water spots, Ilford, if they still have the same emullsions, coult not be water spotted. Any spots that started to form soon disappeared into the emulsion. It was an amazing thing to watch. You just could not get a water spot. Don't know if Ilford is the same or not.
Originally posted by oftheherd
[B]
I never even heard of a salad spinner. I will have to look for one and see how it might be modified. Anyone have a photo of one?
[B]
http://fantes.com/salad.htm#spinner
http://shopping.msn.com/marketplace.aspx?pmpType=1&pcId=9457&catId=1786
I'd go to a kitchen hardware store with my film reels, though, to see if they fit if placed vertically inside the spinner...
Roman
If you can't find a salad spinner, another water-removal method that I heard from a lab tech and actually tried... successfully... was this:
-- Remove the film from the reel and grasp one end firmly. Now crack it, like Indiana Jones cracking his bullwhip. Do it hard enough that you hear a definite pop. You'll find that this removes almost all the surface water from the film, leaving only a few very tiny droplets. Now you can hang it up to let the emulsion dry.
Downsides: Water goes all over wherever you're doing this trick; if the film flies out of your hand or hits something, you'll very likely scratch it; the end you're holding still retains some water, so hang it with that end down.
But it is kinda fun...
digitalox
01-12-2005, 08:45
Ha! But I have two cats. I don't think whipping my film around is going to be a very good idea :)
oftheherd
01-12-2005, 09:31
Thanks Roman. I didn't know.
jlw - I would be scared to death to try that. No doubt I would pop the film into itself, scratching it badly, and probably sling it across the room in the process, and scare the whole house with the noise (me screaming at what I had done). :D
Originally posted by digitalox
Ha! But I have two cats. I don't think whipping my film around is going to be a very good idea :)
Yes, I should have mentioned that this is not a cat-safe procedure!
The instantaneous cat-brain reaction undoubtedly would be: "Snake-like alien creature! Attack! Kill!"
Nose grease can fix a lot of scratches (I'm still waiting for a Nose Grease tool in Photoshop, BTW) but I don't think there's a cure for film shredded by claws...
Hey Guys,
Many many thanks for all that incredibly valuable advice. I'll try to unify all these and come up with the ultimate solution.
A cat proof indiana Jones salad spinner .
Many many yhanks again,
Bertie
Vince Brant
02-04-2005, 22:21
Final rinse with washing up liquid ! works a treat (with distilled water)....have been using this method for the last 15 years without any traces of drying marks......... :eek: I wouldnt let my negs go 2K's within reach of a squeegee!!!
This is SUCH a timely thread...I was getting the screaming ****s with my b&w developing (a new thing for this Velvia user) because I am always getting slight scratches from the squegeee. And yes, it is a good quality one, it's obviously just my technique. Or something.
Anyway, I love the way there are about 12 different solutions to the one problem!
I'm going to try some of these, I have a couple of rolls to soup up tonight.
Vince, any particular brand of washing up liquid?
tim
Vince Brant
02-05-2005, 03:46
Earth Choice (phosphate free) :) Aussie made! Lemon flavour. :)
2 x drops per litre of water .I use an eye dropper .
After the final rinse (with the washig liquid),I use a damp chamois leather and lightly run down each side of neg once ( I have used numerous squeegeeeeeeese and have always managed to get a tram line running down neg at some stage,chamois much SOFTER) and leave to dry in a dust free enviroment.
Keep the leather clean at all times and damp (keep damp in a plastic wrapper)
try not to place leather down at any time other than back in its wrapper so not to attract any foriegn debris which could SCRAAAAAAAAAAAAATCH :eek: If in doubt always use a replacement.
I have converted a tall kitchen cupboard (narrow) with a hair dryer mounted into the bottom (from side).....Door opens from front......holes at top of unit to allow hot air to escape.........the negs are attached to a hanger at top and bottom,(not to tight as to stretch film) ,so they dont fly about..............hair dryer set to minimum level........hey presto negs dry within 10 minutes...dust free,WRINKLE and SCRATcH free.....ready for the lightbox :)
Hardest part is to get my wifes hairdryer back without her knowing :eek:
Vince Brant
02-05-2005, 03:50
Tim forgot to mention!!! when dropping in the washig up liquid dont let it BUBBLE....ie always drop the liquid into the water not water onto the w..up liquid.
Now I must get back to the washing up :eek:
I use the same Jessops wetting agent, and have no problems at all. But I guess we have quite pure water here in Norway..
I've been processing my own B&W for over 40 years now..
I used to have world class drying marks until I moved to a softer water area, and bought a squegee for a friend, tried it on 1st film in new location and found my film dried in a flash (almost) and had no marks. ???? much soul searching
So try distilled or de ionised water for a final rinse, and 2x recommended dose of 'photo flow' or equivalent. I foam the water with the film still in the plastic reel, and then clip to shower rail, stainless clip at top normal close peg (pin) at bottom.
If you want it to dry quicker clean the photo style squegee carefully and give single wipe down immediately you hang it up.
Your mileage may vary, I use the soft tap water instead of distilled, kettle goes 18 months before much signs of a residue.
Not had any drying marks...
Noel
I sometimes get irregular white specks (that's how they look after scanning, anyways) along the lower 1/4 of the negs.....but I'm not sure if the negs are upside down or not when in the tank; never checked. I always thought it was dust or some kind of flakes of dried chemical coming off the plastic reel when I wound the film on it.
Sounds like it may be a mineral deposit issue; I'd just wash for 15 minutes with a steady stream of tapwater then use a few drops of Ilford wetting agent and squeegee. No drying marks, but those specks are annoying as hell and all have to be PS'd out. They do not wipe or wash off......maybe I'd better try some distilled water.
Silva Lining
04-25-2007, 09:36
The water here in London is quite 'hard' and thus leaves nasty white marks quite easily. I find I can minimise these using a squeedgy although I always rinse the blades in the wetting agent solution before squeezing to lessen the liklihod of scratches!
I might try the distilled water route though...
sepiareverb
04-25-2007, 10:49
Surprised no-one has suggested Photo Wipes. This has been my tried and true method since 1982:
Wetting agent & water, mixed as directed (I used Kodaks for years, but Sprint now- cheaper) I put the wetting agent in a 1 reel metal film tank and take the film from the washer (still on reel) and drop it in. Slight agitation- I turn the reel in the tank 1 or 2x. Then pull out the reel, unload the film and dry off the top of the strip with one half photo wipe folded in half again. I then take another 1/2 Photo Wipe folded in half again and wipe the film with gentle pressure in one continuous motion from top to bottom. A wood clothespin on the bottom and hang from the wire in my closet with a plastic clothespin with a hook on the top.
The Photo Wipe removes all the surface water, films dry quickly without drying marks.
I use the Photo Wipes only once for the length of the film- the same piece works for many rolls of drying the top. The wipes aren't cheap, but have likely saved me hours over the last 25 years in rewashing or cleaning films. I never need to clean a neg- only blow or brush off dust on occasion. My studo is anything but clean, but the films are dry enough when they hang that dust doesn't seem to bother them.
350D_user
04-25-2007, 13:04
Yes I do my own, and have just tried some Ilford SFX. I can't decide if the red filter was affecting the sharpness of the photos (it's not the clearest of filters), the SFX (plus red filter) was showing some IR-like glow (unlikely, going off sample photos), or if it's just focussing errors (not unlikely).
I've gotta buy a rangefinder for Eva. My guesswork's hopeless, and isn't showing signs of improving either.
Oh, and washing-up liquid's good for solving the problem of drying marks on film.
f/stopblues
04-25-2007, 14:54
I've been processing my own B&W for over 40 years now..
That's about how old this thread is, too :D
Ive had very good results with a little rinse aid in the last rinse water then take it out of the spool and into a basin of cold water. Attach the clips and i take it upto the bath where its hung and lightly squeegeed! Making sure the squeegee is very very clean first!
Though it maybe because in Scotland we have very soft water, perhaps thats why ive never had drying marks. Just scratches once from a dirty squeegee!:bang:
Stu.
Luckily I live in a soft water area. A wash in Photo Flo and some squeegee action using my fingers does the job. The one time I used a "proper" squeegee it scratched my negs, and one of the pictures on that roll is one of my favourites, so never again.
Ian
Stephanie Brim
05-04-2007, 17:43
When I do my final darkroom build (complete with sink, of course) I'm installing a faucet with a built-in water filter in it. Should help me considerably. I'm actually going to try using the water from our kitchen faucet to develop some film later on this weekend...it has a Pur filter on it.
sunsworth
05-05-2007, 03:53
Do the final rinse in de-ionised water with 4/5 drops of wetting agent per film.
If you enjoy cloning out scratches in Photoshop use a squeegee.
I use Kodak Photo-Flo. After hanging up the film I pick up the water drops with two ordinary household sponges that have never been used for anything else. I keep them in a ziplock bag, so they stay moist with Photo-Flo treated water. I put one behind the film, one in front, and move them very lightly and very slowly down the film. I go slowly because it takes a finite amount of time for water to move from the film into the sponge. It's not instantaneous. By going slowly I get all the surface water off in one pass. Pressure is kept extremely light to avoid scratching. No problems ever with St. Louis water in 40 years, but if I moved someplace & had problems, I would use distilled water.
Rinsing the film in alcohol as a last bath should help. The alcohol displaces the water in the film. As an added side-effect you get a completely dry film in five minutes.
Philipp
100per cent rubbing alcohol? aka surgical spirit?
I use 96% Polish vodka used for making fruit punch. (Needless to say that there's a lot of punch in the punch.) No problem. Surgical spirit should be fine.
Denaturised alcohol at 70% or so should be fine, too, but I hear that some denaturisation agents leave a residue and some don't - try yours with a piece of film first. Tetenal used to sell alcohol for this purpose under the "Drysonal" label.
Pherdinand
05-16-2007, 05:05
alcohol dries out surfaces very quickly. I am not sure it's a good idea to use very concentrated alcohol as final bath, might make the film crack or something.
Just try it on your hand. It feels VERY strangely dry after an alcohol wash.
When I started using real wetting agent(amaloco, 2.5 euro per 50 ml - or is it 100ml? enough for ages) dissolved in distilled water, i stopped getting drying marks. Nothing else helped (did not try the "cheap shampoo" trick though).
Anyway - 100 % alcohol does not exist. ALcohol always traps water from the air and it is very difficult to separate it. Just as a side info.
Yup. A teensie drop of wetting agent in distilled water works every time. And it's super cheap. Why bother with more difficult or more expensive methods that may or may not work?
Anyway - 100 % alcohol does not exist. ALcohol always traps water from the air and it is very difficult to separate it. Just as a side info.
I'm no chemist, so take this with a grain of salt, but I remember reading the way to purify your alcohol was to place it in a freezer at minus 20C or so, for a while, then introduce some ice cubes into the liquid. The ice will attract the water and trap it, thus removing the water from the alcohol. Result - very pure alcohol!
I now do my final rinse with de-mineralised water (no additives), then hang the negs to dry outside the house, in the evening. A slight breeze is perfect. The air outside is significantly less dusty than the air inside the house, and the negs dry more slowly, with no dust strapped in the water on the negs before drying. Since adopting this practice I have had zero water marks.
One of the tips I have read on the Roger and Frances pages, is to dry the strips of film in diagonal, so that the water goes onto one of the edges and flows away faster. It might not remove the problem but it should help.
OK, here's my bit...
I use diluted Fairy Liquid as a wetting agent (I'm not paying through the nose for tiny bottles of fancy photo soap), and I never ever use a film scratcher (or "squeegee" as those diabolical manifestations are more commonly known). I never get drying marks, but I'm lucky to live in an area with very soft water - if I didn't, I'd do my final soak and wetting dip using distilled water.
owenreading
07-27-2007, 12:12
I use Fairy Liquid as well. Apparently it's bad for the emulsion but frankly I'm sure I'm doing worse things in the developing anyway. I also use deionised (car radiator) water for the final rinse. Squirt in a few drops of washing up liquid after the water's gone in and the water will run out beautifully.
I used to use a chamois - got dust and scratches all over my negatives. Now I just let it dry naturally.
OK, without having read all the other "here's what I do" posts, here's mine:
1. Throw the squeegee away.
2. After all the rinsing I make up 300 ml of distilled/de-ionised water with about 1 ml of Ilfotol (wetting agent).
3. Wash the film in this for a minute or so.
4. Pour it back into the beaker it came from
5. Hang up the film (don't touch it with anything).
6. With a 20 ml syringe (no needle) apply a gentle jet to the top of one side of the film and progress downwards at a reasonable rate. Repeat 2 or 3 times until arrive at the bottom.
7. Repeat other side.
8. Leave room
This is in my cellar where the washing machine is, it's tiled and there's a runoff in the floor. 100 ml of the solution on the floor is not a problem.
Advantages: No scratching whatsoever. No calcium carbonate (scale) spots.
Some people hang their film in special film hangers, or in the bathroom where a hot shower has been run. The steam gets rids of the dust. Whatever.
colin
350D_user
07-27-2007, 12:51
Fairy liquid is better than nothing. Not a squirt though, a drop or two should be sufficient. Hang the film up to dry for a couple of hours, no scratch marks whatsoever. :)
350D_user
07-27-2007, 12:54
Some people hang their film in special film hangers, or in the bathroom where a hot shower has been run. The steam gets rids of the dust. Whatever.
Bulldog clips get my vote. One at either end. After all, the ends get chopped off anyway, don't they? :)
robbiechad
08-01-2007, 15:34
Final rinse with one drop fairy liquid, the sqeegee just one pass hang up with plenty of space, keep the cat away, no problems!!
Never Satisfied
08-01-2007, 15:50
Hello, just to add my $0.05 to the mix, dishwashing liquid and wetting agent are the same thing, one or the other is fine. Although a more expensive solution, I found the single biggest improvement for removing drying marks was to use a drying cabinet. Mine is home made from an old clothing locker with a cheap fan heater jammed in the top. It force drys the film from the top down. If you use weighted clips and don't let you film dry covered in bubbles from the wetting agent you should be on the way to mark free negs. If your getting white marks caused by mineral deposits, install a filter on the tap you use for processing; it will make you drinking water better as well :)
Cheers Andrew.
Distilled water + wetting agent for final wash minute.
Here is a foolproof method for drying 120 or 135 B&W roll film without leaving watermarks, scratches or streaks. It’s a bit labor intensive but will be worth the effort.
The procedure is to wipe down both sides of your roll film simultaneously while it hangs from a film clip using two damp water-absorbing cloths each folded into the shape of a sponge. The cloths will remove any water drops, which could contain mineral deposits. The cloths will even pull the water out of the sprocket holes in 35mm film. This procedure works well if you use a hardener in your film fixer and do not use a wetting agent,
There was a time when you could buy “photo grade” sponges for this purpose but I haven’t seen any for 20 years or more. Photo Wipes work well, but they become expensive if you are processing 30 to 40 rolls a week.
I have found by trial and error that the best material to use to create your own film-wiping pads is the smooth surfaced synthetic chamois or Microfiber automobile wiping/drying cloths found in automotive stores. They are thicker, softer and more water absorbing than natural chamois and they contain no oily residue since they are man-made. Most auto part stores sell these cloths. In the US, Pep Boys Auto Supply stores always have them.
A pair of these cloths/pads will last for years if properly cared for.
Email me for painfully detailed how-to-do-it information, as my explanation is too long for a forum post.
Walter Holt
With my last batch of film, I used distilled water with Photofo as the final 1 minute wash step, and I got NO mineral deposits, which until now were the bain of my existance (photographically speaking.)
Its a good idea to use some kind of hypo clearing agent as this helps remove the slimy residue on film after fixing that even a decent wash can sometime not even remove. After fixing, wash for two minutes and then hypo for another two and then wash for about 6-8 minutes. When removing the film from the reel, take the roll in both hands like as though you were about to examine the negs, and put one hand over your head and the other below whist holding the roll out, and tap your finger on the high side, this helps to create a drain so that the drops will flow down one side of the strip.
I keep a 1:4 solution of LFN or photo flow in a 1L bottle which I put my squeegee into before I start developing in the first place, so that its wet and soaked in wetting agent. Use it this way and you will end up having -at worst small beads of moisture between the sproket holes and thats it. Ive been doing it this way for 20+ years in all kinds of darkrooms and anyone Ive shown it to have all been impressed. Try it see how you like it!
irq506, you've never developed Kodak high speed infra-red film, have you? The emulsion is so soft, even a slippery/gentle fingers squeegee scratches it. A rubber sqeegee would just about strip all the emulsion from the film base. On important negs, even with regular film, I would never trust a rubber squeegee. Of course, YMMV.
I'm in hard water area and I'm trying to avoid long washing in tap water which seems to be the problem. Last two baths are in destilled water, first in recycled distilled water (I replace it once a while) and second with wetting agent. I've tried Foma, Ilford and Tetenal wetting agents and I like the last one the most, it's antistatic, antibacterial and does not smell that bad like Ilfotol.
Hi Everyone out there,
I develop my own bw pictures, in my small tank kitchen sink type photo lab, everything is fine apart from the occasional drying marks on the negative. I even use a photo flo like thing (Jessops wetting agent) but that does not help either.
The most annoying thing is that sometimes it's ok, sometimes not.
Any idea?
Many thanks and happy shooting,
Berci
I agree with the post that said to use distilled water for a rinse and with a few drops of wetting agent. Adelaide water is so high in mineral content that I've had to do this from the time I started developing my own work.
Best wishes,
Gary Haigh
I've changed my opinion on film drying. I was using a rinsing additive and hanging to dry but still finding the odd mark in my scans. I tried a genuine leather chamois which was a disaster ... the sharp edges of the sprocket holes was peeling bits off the chamois and leaving particles all over the film. I switched to one of those synthetic type chamois and have discovered it does a perfect job and can be kept wet in the container unlike the hide variety which have to be dried between uses. After hanging the negative with one of those stainles clips that pierces the neg so it won't slip I can put gentle even pressure on both sides of the film and pull the chamois down to the bottom. With virtually all traces of surface moisture gone the film dries very quickly and I've looked carefully at the negs and can see no streaks scratches or damage from this method. It also means that because the surface of the film is almost dry it doesn't catch dust particles if I hang it in a well ventilated spot. I realise that some film emulsions are supposedly very soft but I've had no trouble so far!
Keith, when I tried that I got marks and scratches too! Perhaps I should have tried a new chamois, not the one I clean the car with!
I did my last couple of rolls with a little wetting agent in the final rinse with filtered water, and after I put the clips on the film, dunked it through the rise water again just before I hung the film, so the rinse water was running off it as I hung it up. Perfect results - no scratches or water marks!
Keith, when I tried that I got marks and scratches too! Perhaps I should have tried a new chamois, not the one I clean the car with!
I did my last couple of rolls with a little wetting agent in the final rinse with filtered water, and after I put the clips on the film, dunked it through the rise water again just before I hung the film, so the rinse water was running off it as I hung it up. Perfect results - no scratches or water marks!
Because I'm a little new to developing waiting for a film to dry so I can scan it is torture. I've discovered that after the film has been chamoid (fancy using the car chamois :eek: ) if I hang it in a breezy doorway it's dry in under an hour.
By the way my Combi Plan will be here next week ... I was hoping for this week but no luck! :( :D The Crown Graphic is sitting on my tripod in the loungeroom where I have to walk past it constantly and the film holders are cleaned and ready to load! :)
Now your talking! You need to start another thread on this - what will you load them with?
Now your talking! You need to start another thread on this - what will you load them with?
I have a choice of TRI-X 320 or HP5! :)
Both ideal for street photography of course. :p
zhengpeng
03-23-2011, 16:23
It doesn't make much sense if you shoot B&W film but don't develop it by yourself.
John Robertson
03-23-2011, 16:41
Last wash, wetting agent and water from a filter jug.
Started to do this when I was in an area of the Highlands of Scotland where the tap water was the colour of weak tea due to the peat soil!! (Tea made with it tasted just fine!!)
Used non fizzy non flavoured bottled water to make up developer and fixer. (Highland Spring!)
I started doing my own developing and I am not looking back...it's a fun and rewarding experience.
slantface
03-23-2011, 16:52
I live in Denver, CO, and the tap water tends to be a bit hard with minerals. I now wash all film with some distilled water. It helps enormously.
f16sunshine
03-23-2011, 17:01
Doing a final rinse with distilled water and a tiny touch of fotoflo does the trick. Like Slantface I also lived in CO. The water in Boulder was hard and had high dissolved particle levels during times of the year.
Wow. lots of great ideas. Just for the record, I wash my film in tap water, add a couple drops of Photo flo right at the end, let it soak for a few minutes, take out the film, wet my fingers with the photo flo solution, run them down the film and let dry. 45 years now and never a streak or a mark. I must be very lucky.
My tap water is also very bad for rinsing in, always leaves marks on the film.
I started buying the big 5l bottles of water from the supermarket. For £1 I can rinse 5 35mm films, so its definately worth the price
whitecat
03-03-2012, 15:04
I use a brand new kitchen sponge.....wet and rung dry. After the rinse I run the film through my pointing finger and my social finger quickly. This takes a lot of the water off. I then fold the sponge in half and run the film through there only once. Never get streaks with this method.
mdarnton
03-03-2012, 15:06
I just got back into this stuff after a couple of decade hiatus, and have learned some new tricks. I used to use tap water and photoflo, then leave the film to hang. I used to get spots. From that, I learned to use a folded paper towel lightly and slowly against one side of the film at a time, which worked better.
Sponges like to hold on to crud. I would never use a sponge.
Coming back, I learned about distilled water, so I tried that, alone, and it worked good. Then I added photoflo and that worked fine, then I added back the wiping, and that worked fine. I think the big step, though, was the distilled water. I'm sold on the stuff now, and can take the photo flow or leave it. Don't try to wipe negs that have just the bare water, no photoflo--they're a bit stickier, and wiping doesn't work so nicely.
I'm inclined to say bare distilled water is the best, though.
One thought: you don't want film in your tank at the same time as concentrated photoflo--take out the film and mix in the photoflo well, then put the film back in. If you get even a droplet of concentrated photoflo on the negs, that will cause you pain. Sure, you can be lucky most of the time, and maybe it hasn't happened to you yet. . . .
Second thought: I grew up a few miles from one of the world's largest holes, a limestone quarry, and my town made cement. Back then, in the 50s, it coated the whole north side of town. The only way you could get it off your car windshield was with vinegar. I imagine that might remove water spots, and if you wiped it off carefully after, you'd be fine--it's not inherently dangerous to anything in the film.
I rinse the film after developing it for 2 minutes, do a proper wash by shaking it and t hen rinse again.
I finalize by adding then wetting agent (10ml for 1l of water).
Just be sure if you don't have calcareous water in your zone.. if you do, do the final step with distilled water. :)
I agree that wetting agent recommended dilutions are too high. Maybe they are trying to compensate for the hardest water around. Cut it in half or less, and mix with distilled water, not tap water.
thomasw_
03-04-2012, 09:46
This is a very good old thread, thanks for resurrecting it.
First measure to take is to throw away any type of squeegee or cloth wiping device; there's no need to introduce an unnecessary physical force to your negs. Now, bear in mind, I live in an area with tap water that will leave terrible marks after drying. These are the steps I used to eliminate them as much as possible:
1. do my LFN final rinse in distilled or filtered water
2. keeping the film on the spool, use a lettuce/salad spinner to get most of the residual rinsing water off of my negs before hanging them to dry; i use a counter-balancing technique of four spools held in place by rubber elastics
3. use a drying cabinet, hanging the negs at a bit of a slant
I have eliminated drying marks or scratching with these measures.
Ronald M
03-05-2012, 01:23
Dry marks are dissolved crud in the water that does not sheet off. Use enough wetting agent so water sheets off before drying. Alcohol will make matters worse.
Clean distilled water or highly filtered wash water will get rid of dissolved solids. Use the Ilford method and very little water is required.
Every thing needs to be super clean, chem bottles, tanks, reels, room, water, air, everything. Then all this goes away.
This is a very good old thread, thanks for resurrecting it.
First measure to take is to throw away any type of squeegee or cloth wiping device; there's no need to introduce an unnecessary physical force to your negs. Now, bear in mind, I live in an area with tap water that will leave terrible marks after drying. These are the steps I used to eliminate them as much as possible:
1. do my LFN final rinse in distilled or filtered water
2. keeping the film on the spool, use a lettuce/salad spinner to get most of the residual rinsing water off of my negs before hanging them to dry; i use a counter-balancing technique of four spools held in place by rubber elastics
3. use a drying cabinet, hanging the negs at a bit of a slant
I have eliminated drying marks or scratching with these measures.
That salad spinner idea is a great one! I've thought of blowing a hair dryer at full force, on cool, through the plastic reel after the requisite shake. Might try tomorrow for the heck of it.
That salad spinner idea is a great one! I've thought of blowing a hair dryer at full force, on cool, through the plastic reel after the requisite shake. Might try tomorrow for the heck of it.
PS- Air for just a few seconds to blow off the excess water remnants.
I don't do any of this stuff. I get water marks. I have yet to see them show up on a scan, or print in the darkroom/inkjet (up to 16x20).
Distilled water does the trick for me. My negatives have never been cleaner since I started using it.
gilpen123
05-30-2012, 01:32
No squeegee for me as well. I just use my fingers to run softly thru the film. I also use 1-2 small drop of Joy liquid dish washing soap and make sure you don't create suds or make it soapy.
The trick with the final washing water is to have most capillary action so that water will drain off of the surface gradually, smoothly as a continuously thinning film without leaving drops behind. A few drops of Photoflo or one spoonful of alcohol in the final washing can help; wipe off with wet fingers in one stroke down. In case of drop stains when dried, gently wipe with isopropyl alcohol.
sepiareverb
05-30-2012, 13:18
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Photo Wipes (now known as Tidi Wipes (http://wilburnmedicalusa.com/patient-care-supplies/towels-washcloths/tidi-kay-pees-professional-towels) or KayPees). I've used these for all roll films since 1982 and I can count on one hand the number of times I've had water marks or dust. This is more than 5000 rolls of 120 and 35mm film. I am a pig, my studio is always dusty, with cat and dog hair, dust and etc. Until this past summer I never had a drying space with a door on it. No need to ever deal with water marks or stuck on dust again.
Sprint End-Run (http://sprintsystems.com/products/end-run-wetting-agent-stabilizer/) mixed with distilled water as per the bottle instructions, I take the reel out of the solution, let it drip a moment, give it a gentle shake, pull the film off the reel, wipe once in a single motion with a half a Wipe (folded in half to make a 1" x 6" or so wad, then again around the film) held between index and middle fingers, clip the empty cassette (with the roll number with 35mm) or a wooden clothes pin to one end, a laundry hook/clothespin to the other end and hang 'em to dry. They dry faster, and completely mark & dust free. I was taught this method by Paul Krot who founded Sprint in 1982 and have never had troubles with any post processing defects on my films other than cutting them incorrectly.
I've lately been using Agfa Sistan as well, and mixing it per directions with distilled water, then adding the End Run stock to this as if it was water. I like End Run for the Anti-Static properties.
Anyone plagued by water marks can eliminate them pretty much forever by using this method.
Try and do a final rinse in distilled water, just a simple pass-thru. Then dilute your wetting agent in distilled water. Your tap water probably has a high solids content.
-Paul
This is also what I do, in addition to using a wetting agent. The tap water where I live has a fairly high mineral content. I've had no problems with drying marks, though, since I started using distilled water for the final wash and also for the wetting agent.
This is also what I do, in addition to using a wetting agent. The tap water where I live has a fairly high mineral content. I've had no problems with drying marks, though, since I started using distilled water for the final wash and also for the wetting agent.
Same. I only have problems with drying marks when I'm lazy and don't get distilled water for final rinse (with photo flo). I do squeegee the film between two fingers before hanging to dry and it does help, but distilled water is the best way to go.
Film explorer
07-06-2012, 03:06
This is also what I do, in addition to using a wetting agent. The tap water where I live has a fairly high mineral content. I've had no problems with drying marks, though, since I started using distilled water for the final wash and also for the wetting agent.
I will remember to do this method with distilled water for the final wash next time.
Thankyou for the advice!
I use a wetting agent and distilled water. Works every time.
starless
07-06-2012, 03:35
I've found out that as long as you do the last wash with distilled water there is no need for Photo-Flo or any other chemicals.
Toni Nikkanen
09-13-2012, 14:42
I have a simple nonconventional method that nobody seems to agree with (probably because it's too easy...), but I get drying mark-free negatives consistently, even with the superhard Berlin tap water that I use for mixing my chemicals and for the rinses.. That is:
I don't use squeegees, sponges, nor do I wipe the film with anything.
I don't use wetting agens, HCA's, photo-flo, agepon... Just developer, stop bath, fixer, and:
After fixing, I rinse the film under running water for 10-13 minutes. Then, I pour in distilled water, rotate the film spirals a few times and let it be for a minute. Then I hang the films to dry in the bathroom - not in any special way, just top to bottom with a weight at the bottom. That's it. I reuse one liter of distilled water for 10-15 rolls of film and it costs me 1,45 euro per 5 liters, so it's not such a big cost.
This method is very unpopular and nobody ever suggests it, yet I find it works perfectly for me and is the simplest method I've ever heard of.
antistatic
09-13-2012, 20:59
I also had probelms with drying marks and also recently found distilled water with a tiny drop of photoflow for the final rinse has made a big difference for the better.
I was having good results with a final rinse of distilled water.
Then I ran out of distilled water and just used tap water. I started getting water spots.
So I bought more distilled for my final rinse. I got worse water spots than ever before!
The only thing that's changed is my brand of water. Is it possible that all "distilled" water is not equal? I'm going back to the old one next time to test this theory. Also I have some Photo Flo on the way.
Toni Nikkanen
09-14-2012, 03:22
It could be there are quality differences. What I've used is not technically really 100% pure distilled water, but battery water meant for things like car batteries and for using in steam irons etc. I've used about 3 different brands and all of them have worked fine so far.
If you had this problem only once, maybe it's actually something that happened during the development phase? I had a period where all my films had nasty "blotches" in them and I finally figured it's because the quality of the tap water had changed due to a difficult winter - I even contacted the waterworks and they said the tap water was harder and more alkaline than usually during that period. So in that case I started to mix my developer into distilled water, and problem gone. I no longer live in that area and usually use tap water for the developer again..
The fixer doesn't appear to be so sensitive to water quality..
crispy12
10-24-2012, 04:45
I decided to buy some Photo Flo because I happened to be buying printing paper at the photo store. Never realised it was so cheap, $6.50 for a 300-500ml sized bottle. I don't think I'll ever finish that bottle, the last roll I developed used about a teaspoon and it was already way too much!
Also not a single drying mark on that roll, and I didn't even bother to squeegee the negs with my fingers.
daveywaugh
11-15-2012, 00:01
Try and do a final rinse in distilled water, just a simple pass-thru. Then dilute your wetting agent in distilled water. Your tap water probably has a high solids content.
-Paul
I'll second that. If I follow that advice I never have a problem - if I don't, I get drying marks about 50% of the time.
daveywaugh
11-15-2012, 00:03
Well I guess 7th it ;-) Just read the rest of the comments. I just use it for the final Photo-Flo and it works perfectly. For lesser quality water, try the final rinse also as suggested.
I agree. A little detergent in the final rinse then hang somewhere comfortable ( I use the shower recess) for a slow dry...no marks.
I had drying marks even after using distilled water and photo-flo and only got rid of it after adding a little alcohol. (It's 96% ethylalcohol, I think.)
Ronald M
02-28-2013, 08:37
Solids in the water cause marks. As suggested distilled water. Kodak Photoflow can be used at 1:200 with my softened tap water. If you do not use enough, the water will not sheet off. So depending on water quality, vary the dilution.
It helps to lay the reel on its side after final rinse with wetting agent for up to 5 min. Cover with inverted dry tank. Put sky up, ground down. This way water only needs to travel 30 mm. Tap to shake off drips, then hang.
Keep squeegees, sponges, cloths, fingers, and anything else you can dream up away from the film. None is really ever clean including your fingers, and even if they were, you risk grabbing a piece of debris and scratching the film..
Ok, here I go. I use Photo-flo for a wash. BUT, for my final rinse, I do this.
I put 1 drop of dishwashing liquid in my canister and fill it with water. I remove all the suds and drop my film on the rolls in there as a the final, final wash. I swish for 30 seconds, remove, shake the rolls, remove neg's then squeege with my fingers. 30 rolls going and NO marks!
I learned this trick from an old pro who has been developing since the 50's....
Just did that last night with two rolls of Minox subminiature negatives. They dried perfectly with no mineral stains ... very hard water in our area. It did a better job than Edwal's wetting agent did.
sepiareverb
02-28-2013, 15:44
Sprint's End Run is my current preferred choice, mixed with Sistan and distilled water and (broken record here I know, but I can count on one hand the times I've had ANY issues with dust or water marks on my films) a wipe with a Photo Wipe. The End Run comes in a 1L bottle which lasts forever- or nearly so, I'm still in my first bottle in 15 years and I run a LOT of film.
John Bragg
03-01-2013, 01:09
Great thread full of good suggestions. I have recently modified my method of drying film.
Final wash in Tetenal Mirasol. Shake water off film whilst still in the spiral quite vigorously. Hang up to dry (no squeegeeing). I now get the best results I have ever had. As a final note I also used to squeegee but it is too hit and miss with a risk of scratching.
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