View Full Version : why do we like quiet cameras?
back alley
10-03-2006, 12:13
i admit it too.
when i had the m3, the thing i liked best about it was the quiet of the shutter when i pressed down on the shutter button.
clearly i don't value that quiet shutter or i never would have traded it back to ray.
my zi makes a bit more noise when i click the shutter, it true, but i value that camera more. it does more for me and in a more modern and convenient manner. (swing door for instance)
none the less, a quiet shutter comes up as a criteria for a camera purchase on many a post.
i have no real need for the quietest shutter as most of my shots take place outdoors on the street. if it's busy and there is traffic i could fire off a small pistol and maybe not be noticed. if it's early with little or no traffic, vehicular or pedestrian, well, then clearly sound makes no difference if there is no one around to hear it.
yet a quiet shutter seems to be attractive to many.
even though a metal shutter has benefits that a cloth one does not.
why is this?
i can't remember the last time i was in church let alone took a photo in one.
where else might i need a very quiet shutter?
a restaurant with coffee machines hissing or serving staff running about?
a museum? a library? have not shot in either in a long time.
a beach with people laughing and playing and the waves crashing on the surf? a ballgame, a hockey game?
perhaps a funeral?
so, tell me, why we do we value the quiet of a shutter?
joe
It's a self conscious thing, for me. The louder it sounds to my ears, the more self conscious I am, even if it doesn't make sense to worry about the noise. It's also why I don't sing as I walk around in public, or mumble to myself although I could get away with it I'm sure.
That's basically it. Some people think that black cameras make them stealthier and they're more self conscious when using a chrome one. I feel the same way about a loud vs soft shutter. *shrug*
Stephanie Brim
10-03-2006, 12:36
I tend to take photos with family and such...I like the quiet shutter so that they don't constantly look at the camera when I want them to just act natural.
Joe,
I have to agree with you questioning why it seems so important. Whether I use my M5 or my D200, the shutter noise is not what makes people notice that I'm shooting photos. Actually I don't remember the last time I took a photo even at a fairly quite show where there was not enough ambient noise to cover the shutter sound of any camera.
Having said that, I still like a quiet camera. Go figure?:rolleyes:
Ray
Everyone turns their head when they hear the whap of a mirror flapping back and forth. Doesn't matter if it's in a church or not. The peace before the moment is gone. Even if shot away from the eye, the advantage is still lost because of the noise. May still get a decent pic, but it won't be the same one as before the disruption.
Gabriel M.A.
10-03-2006, 12:53
Because...it's...quiet?
I don't think I've ever seen anybody complain about how quiet a camera is. Or praise how loud it is.
Except legislators, but they're not using the cameras, anyway.
Joe, when you’ve finished with Frank’s stick may I borrow it?
Rich Silfver
10-03-2006, 12:57
http://silfver.blogspot.com/2006/09/shooting-with-olympus-35spn_17.html
You only need one time when you need a quite camera to get the shot, and thats all the reason. Oddly I'd think twice before using my Bessas at an accoustic folk venue even though the times that I frequent such places is rare with a camera. I guess it's like getting a very fast f1.4 lens and using it at f4 or slower most of the time. Now thats made me think.
back alley
10-03-2006, 13:11
Joe, when you’ve finished with Frank’s stick may I borrow it?
no stick, no hornet's nest.
i am sincerely curious and as i said, i am caught up in it too.
if the zi sounded cheap or tinny i could understand it better but it doesn't, it's just a bit louder. and the m3 i had didn't sound expensive, just a bit quieter.
but if we constructed a list of criteria for a 'best' camera body purchase we all know that quiet would be on the list of most of us.
as i said, i considered it and found there were other more important criteria for me but that doesn't halt my curiosity.
joe
I was in an exhibition and museum on Sat with my CL and was really glad of the quite shutter, although most of the time I'm shooting in the street or places where you wouldn't even notice a SLR shutter...
because you take photos near people and don't want to disturb them.
PlantedTao
10-03-2006, 13:33
I guess that is what has been my biggest disappointment with the Bessa R2...because everything else has been great. It is one of the main reasons why I want a M2...but I hear you can't walk around with the lens cap all day like the R2???
People do notice the sound even on the street...but since I've been doing hip shoots lately I think it is not so much about the sound. So, I agree with Crasis that it is more in my head than it is about the actual sound.
However, lately I've prefered my xpan for the street camera, it is much more quiet, like the zi I believe...but I think I just like the format of the xpan and not the sound of the shutter???
Im beginning to think shutter sound is one of those things that keeps us buying new equipment---we (rff'ers) seem to think that one camera will have it all and this causes GAS and on we search...
But, I'm slowly coming to the realization that although the R2 is loud, it has everything I need to take great photos in the style I like, so I guess I need to learn to live with a loud shutter and learn how to sing so no one hears it :)
no stick, no hornet's nest.
i am sincerely curious and as i said, i am caught up in it too.
if the zi sounded cheap or tinny i could understand it better but it doesn't, it's just a bit louder. and the m3 i had didn't sound expensive, just a bit quieter.
but if we constructed a list of criteria for a 'best' camera body purchase we all know that quiet would be on the list of most of us.
as i said, i considered it and found there were other more important criteria for me but that doesn't halt my curiosity.
joe
OK then it is a received opinion, it’s not important just talked about a lot
Andrew Sowerby
10-03-2006, 13:41
I think that most people talk about it for the same reason that they talk about a camera being mechanical (not battery dependent) and other things that really don't make much difference in the real world: it allows them to reinforce their lust for or pride of ownership of a specific camera. :eek:
I think that most people talk about it for the same reason that they talk about a camera being mechanical (not battery dependent) and other things that really don't make much difference in the real world: it allows them to reinforce their lust for or pride of ownership of a specific camera. :eek:
Pride of the ownership, and fear of the fall?
It's a self conscious thing, for me. The louder it sounds to my ears, the more self conscious I am, even if it doesn't make sense to worry about the noise. It's also why I don't sing as I walk around in public, or mumble to myself although I could get away with it I'm sure.
That's basically it. Some people think that black cameras make them stealthier and they're more self conscious when using a chrome one. I feel the same way about a loud vs soft shutter. *shrug*
This explanation nails it for me. I don't have the bravado attitude to go about disturbing people by taking pictures in their face. A quiet camera makes me feel less intrusive. i have to say that my attitude towards this may be rather extreme because i am a very shy and sensitive person.
The other reason i prefer the leica shutter sound is that with my understanding and appreciation of mechanical mechanisms, the shutter sound reinforces the feeling of quality. To me it sounds like what I think a quality mechanical shutter SHOULD sound like. it's not just the sound level, it is the nature of the sound. I have other cameras with leaf shutters that are much quieter, but not as "satisfying" to listen to.
I hope I have not offended anyone by expressing these heart-felt feelings honestly.
OK Frank; you can have your stick back
SolaresLarrave
10-03-2006, 14:02
I like them for the same reason I like fast lenses (and I don't own the fastest of the fast... but just regular fast).
They're exceedingly cool and get the job done without so much effort.
I also agree with the self-conscious factor. Sometimes when I photograph I like to go unnoticed, and the quiet shutter contributes to my "invisibility."
It really came in handy in Germany, especially when taking photos of people in markets and festivals in which a shutter would have broken the spontaneity of the moment.
There you go, joe!
Oh, as a PS... I really envy you with the black ZI. Not so much the camera, as the feeling of having a nice, nifty camera to learn. That thread of yours was clearly as disturbing for me as a loud shutter! :)
The only person who can make you feel insecure and inadequate is yourself. If you feel like you are being beaten with a stick, guess who's weilding it? Not me. If I read someone go on and on about japanese chisels and how great they are... yes so what? If it is important to me,I'll try one. if the craftsman chisel doeswhat i need it to do and i'm more into results than the process of woodworking, then I'd use the craftsman chisel, but I would not begrudge the Japanese chisel owner for owning the tool of his choice and for talking about how good it makes him/her feel to use it. My feelings would not be hurt by that, (even though i am a sensitive person.)
I really wonder why leica ownership is such a hot button issue! Maybe it's because folks get totally ticked off by SOME leica owners that are jsut posers who think that they can make better pictures than other photographers jsut because of their camera. I am NOT such a person.
back alley
10-03-2006, 14:43
just to clarify...i''m not talking about brands so much as the quietness of a shutter and how we perceive the value of that sound.
i love the zi but i'd like it to be more quiet, even though i know it makes no difference in the kind of shooting i do.
i never said it had to make to sense.
Sshhhh... not so loud....
SolaresLarrave
10-03-2006, 14:49
Ralph... it was deafening! :eek:
There's still a hunter inside us TV vegetables. You don't want a dry branch cracking.
even though i know it makes no difference in the kind of shooting i do.
i never said it had to make to sense.
My point exactly.
Yes, I Leica is quieter than a Bessa or ZI, but so what. Bring that camera to your eye, black or chrome, Leica or Bessa, you will get the same result, you are noticed or not because of what you are doing, not because of what is in your hand.
Heck, if it really mattered we would have all saved a lot of money and stuck with our Canonets and GSNs, they are really quite, or maybe this should be the Rolleiflex Forum, even quieter yet.
back alley
10-03-2006, 15:18
There's still a hunter inside us TV vegetables. You don't want a dry branch cracking.
i believe you may have found the truth!!
The crack is after/as the shutter has fired. Your prey is already shot when they notice.
SolaresLarrave
10-03-2006, 15:22
**Sound of branch and twigs breaking**
Ooops!
**Composing himself**
I like the simile between photographers and hunters! :)
**Sound of branch and twigs breaking**
Ooops!
**Composing himself**
I like the simile between photographers and hunters! :)
I prefer the analogy of a child sneaking a peak into the living room at the parents and their friends. He wants to observe; to take note without disturbing the scene.. or else he gets sent to his room!
Hunting is so.. violent :o
The crack is after/as the shutter has fired. Your prey is already shot when they notice.
you might miss and want to try a second shot.
above all else, a quiet shutter helps you get away with it.
KoNickon
10-03-2006, 15:59
1. We equate a quiet shutter with a piece of quality equipment. Of course, there are plenty of not so great cameras with quiet shutters -- and digital point and shoot cameras, anathema to many of us, are silent if you shut off the fake shutter sound and the focus chime. And, you can't call a Canon T90 quiet, though it's a superb camera.
2. We think a louder shutter disturbs subjects. What that really means is, you can only get one shot, since the shutter noise calls attention to you. But let's be honest, it's rare that there's not enough ambient noise to mask the shutter sound, and how many of us have actually heard the shutter noise from the distance of a subject? Remember, we're hearing it from several inches away, so it sounds a lot louder than it really is.
3. What disturbs subjects more than the sound of a shutter is seeing someone with their camera to their eye, pointing in their direction. If stealth is really needed, this is the more important consideration.
I have first hand experience where I've taken pictures of an unknowing subject and not been noticed after the fact with a Leica or leaf shutter camera, and also having been noticed due to the shutter sound when using a Bessa R, R2 and slr. It has happened to me. For that type of photo, I prefer not to get noticed, and a quiet shutter helps. It is/has been an issue for me, but admittedly those types of photos make up a small percentage of my photos. But, having the confidence that one is quiet, helps get photos I wouldn't otherwise try. It's both a head-game, and a real issue in some instances.
ChrisPlatt
10-03-2006, 16:46
I once briefly owned an Argus C4. It's a surprisingly
nice camera, but its shutter sounded like a gunshot.
It was so loud it startled even me, the picture taker...
"Excelsior, you fathead!"
-Chris-
Quiet shutters are also essential during stage performances. And back in the film era, there were some U.S. courtrooms which, if they allowed photography, specified that it could only be done with a Leica.
Of course, most modern digital point-and-shoot cameras are utterly silent. My Canon G1 actually has a little speaker to make an optional "click" sound so you know you've taken a photo.
BrianShaw
10-03-2006, 17:14
When I was single and looking for a woman, I liked a loud shutter. They noticed me and was impressed that I was a photographer. ;) After I got married and, well, had no reason to impress women anymore... I started using a TLR and RF with quiet shutters. :o Lately I've returned to the click-whizzzz of a SLR with motor-drive. I hope I'm not headed for another mid-life crisis :eek:
SolaresLarrave
10-03-2006, 17:27
Brian, "another mid-life crisis"? :eek:
My wife was concerned about my impending one... and then I told her it was my Leicas. That calmed her down.
Do women go through MLC? :confused:
While a Leica shutter is great for moments when you don't want to hear a shutter, the NOISE of a Nikon F2 is simply beautiful. Each has its place and time.
Raid
BrianShaw
10-03-2006, 17:33
Brian, "another mid-life crisis"? :eek:
My wife was concerned about my impending one... and then I told her it was my Leicas. That calmed her down.
Do women go through MLC? :confused:
I married later than many, so I tell my wife that SHE was my mid-life crisis and anything else... cars, cameras, etc. are things I DESERVE. A bit arrogant, I suppose, but she tends to agree so...
Yes, women go through MLC also. Unfortunately it is often refered to as "menopause'. A slightly different type of crisis, I believe.
I have never used a Leica M camera of any sort, but my Leica IIIf and, especially, my Leica IIIa, are about as quiet as one can get except for the digicams. If I turn off the flash on my Fuji F10, there is very little to indicate that I am taking a photo. I think that, realizing it or not, we all like the idea of stealthily taking photos with our subjects unaware that they are being photographed.
Jim N.
isn't it about the end product at the end of the day? in reality as long as i get the pic i want the shutter could sound like concorde for all i really care
Film dino
10-03-2006, 23:08
I'm wondering what real evidence there is that Leica rangefinder shutters were deliberately designed to be quiet... Isn't the sound mostly a function of the rubberised silk used? 2c..
IGMeanwell
10-04-2006, 00:08
My Polaroid 250 Land Camera has a very loud shutter... went you set cock it it you can feel the tension on it... when you fire the shutter its a loud clunk!!! And that was a camera designed for candids!!!
I have always wanted a quiet shutter... my Nikon is not terribly loud but loud enough to make me feel self concious about it
suprisingly my Minolta X-370 has pretty quiet shutter until you reach the highest shutter speeds....
I think my Yashica has a pretty darn quiet click... its not silent but its not loud
Any owners of the Hexar AF... is the silent mode completely silent?
I'm wondering what real evidence there is that Leica rangefinder shutters were deliberately designed to be quiet...
I guess it's one of the byproducts of the development of a myth that any feature gets re-interpreted as the result of a deliberate design decision. You find a lot of this going on about Leica products.
Philipp
I guess it's one of the byproducts of the development of a myth that any feature gets re-interpreted as the result of a deliberate design decision. You find a lot of this going on about Leica products.
Philipp
From a different side, wouldn't the use of rubberized silk or whatever, be a deliberate design decision? I can't really believe that they'd decide to use such a cloth mechanism instead of metal if they didn't see an advantage. After all, that's why they can't go any higher than a certain shutter speed.
Getting back to the original question, and away from the brand thing, I have a similar difficulty the other way round, I always feel uncomfortable with a Rolleiflex, often the lack of noise and the fact you’re not looking through a finder leaves the subject unaware they have been caught on film.
Now perhaps I’m too sensitive but that feels like spying or voyeurism to me and I feel far more comfortable if there is some “click” so the subject at least has a sporting chance of being alerted to, and if they wish objecting to, being photographed.
jamiewakeham
10-04-2006, 01:37
You all need to take a turn at firing the shutter of one of the Kiev Hasselblad clones - especially when there's a slow speed engaged, to add the clacking of the timer to the mix...
Whoosh-THUNK... BANG... clackety clackety clack... BANG! And then winding the thing on is louder than some 35mm shutter noises!
After that, all 35mm SLRs seem 'stealth', and all rangefinders are completely silent.
Jamie
From a different side, wouldn't the use of rubberized silk or whatever, be a deliberate design decision? I can't really believe that they'd decide to use such a cloth mechanism instead of metal if they didn't see an advantage. After all, that's why they can't go any higher than a certain shutter speed.
If that were the case they would have stuck with cloth on the M8 and not risked the controversy of the new shutter noise
amateriat
10-04-2006, 02:09
When I was single and looking for a woman, I liked a loud shutter. They noticed me and was impressed that I was a photographer. ;) After I got married and, well, had no reason to impress women anymore... I started using a TLR and RF with quiet shutters. :o Lately I've returned to the click-whizzzz of a SLR with motor-drive. I hope I'm not headed for another mid-life crisis :eek: Practically fell out of my chair with this one, partly because of an unintentional flash of recognition: somewhere around the halfway-point of my relationship with my s.o. (we'll have been together 10 years this Friday – and that's without the benefit of nuptials!), I made the wholesale switch from SLRs to RFs. I don't think the male-on-the-prowl thing has anything to do with it, but what do I know? (She, on the other hand, still has her SLR...)
More to the point, I think: a quiet(er) camera is simply better, IMO, than a noisy camera. It simply offers up more options. RFs, by nature of their design, tend to be somewhat more quiet than many SLRs; there are quiet SLRs out there, but they tend to be lower-end models (film or digital) with dim VFs and other annoyances. RFs, from my experience, tend to be less-disruptive in terms of "operational noise" (VF blackout, vibration from mirror-slap) than SLRs in general. Somewhat smaller bodies and much smaller lenses make them less confrontational than zoom-equipped SLRs of most any stripe – yet another kind of "noise".
- Barrett
>> what real evidence there is that Leica rangefinder shutters were deliberately designed to be quiet<<
I think it eventually became intentional, if not from the start. In the 1950s, Nikon was able to speed up cloth shutters to be able to attain a flash sync of 1/60, but at the cost of increased noise in the shutter brake. Leica maintained their 1/50 flash sync up until the M8, for the most part of keep the mechanism very quiet. The move to metal shutters allows the M8 to have higher speeds.
alan davus
10-04-2006, 02:50
You all need to take a turn at firing the shutter of one of the Kiev Hasselblad clones - especially when there's a slow speed engaged, to add the clacking of the timer to the mix...
Whoosh-THUNK... BANG... clackety clackety clack... BANG! And then winding the thing on is louder than some 35mm shutter noises!
After that, all 35mm SLRs seem 'stealth', and all rangefinders are completely silent.
Jamie
Just read your post and are still chuckling. Do you do any other voice imitations? Seems you might have missed your calling in life.
ffttklackdedeng
10-04-2006, 02:55
If that were the case they would have stuck with cloth on the M8 and not risked the controversy of the new shutter noise
I think Leica left the cloth shutter until the M7 not to risk low selling numbers because of the noise. But the technical limitations regarding max and flash sync speed are an issue. The turn to digital is such a big improvement for most that they won't complain too much and bite the bullet of the increased noise.
jamiewakeham
10-04-2006, 03:46
I'm a teacher, Alan; my entire working life is about performance and bringing realisation to slightly abstract concepts (well, that and getting the little b*ggers to stay in their seats, but hey...).
But this leads me to an idea. Maybe we could try to vocalise descriptions of all the popular shutters in this way - then we could try to understand how the ZI shutter is different to the M3. I'm happy to work on this. Could I have volunteers to send me, say, a ZI and an M3? They'll do for starters. I promise to return them...;)
Jamie
cos everyone says its cool. im a trend follower
Say you've got a choice between a loud camera and a quiet camera. You choose.
HI Memphis, I ride a BMW, so at least I''m consistent. They are over-engineered too. :)
-old German motorcycles, old German cameras-
Sitting in a hide - trying to photograph some shy furry thing- The guy beside you: Bleep-bleep AF, and then suddenly a sound like a motorcycle starting up - the film rewinds automatically. Animal heading for the horizon...:mad: :bang:
Or safari-vehicles with DSLR'S in burst mode - it sounds like machine-guns open up..:eek:
Sylvaticus
10-04-2006, 04:52
So as not to make the birds fly off, not to make the animals run away, not to make the people turn round..... And don't forget the beeps. Go right through the whole set up, turning off beeps and jingles at every option. It takes about 10 minutes with a film camera, 30 minutes with a digital. Or get one that never beeps or thinks it's a gramophone in the first place.
I saw the Lincoln Center christmas tree last year, the beeping was non-stop and sounded like a fleet of ambulances driving round and round.
No beeps for me: M6TTL,VisoflexIII in silent mode and Noflexar 400 with Tex extender: 800 mm in blessed silence! My Canon 100-400 can be bought at ffordes....
Kim Coxon
10-04-2006, 05:11
I have to say, I am not convinced with the cloth is quieter than metal argument. On both my Canon VI-ls (one sold and the other for sale) the shutter is quieter than the Leicas I have had. This includes M2, M3, M4 and M6. Now the Canon P I had was much noisier. Maybe this had something to do with the fact that the P was a budget model of the VI series.
Maybe Leica didn't like a metal shutter because it would show wrinkles and that wouldn't be Leica like. Besides, most Leicas don't get used that much so there is less chance of burning a hole in the curtain. :D :D :D :D
Kim
From a different side, wouldn't the use of rubberized silk or whatever, be a deliberate design decision? I can't really believe that they'd decide to use such a cloth mechanism instead of metal if they didn't see an advantage. After all, that's why they can't go any higher than a certain shutter speed.
I have to say, I am not convinced with the cloth is quieter than metal argument. On both my Canon VI-ls (one sold and the other for sale) the shutter is quieter than the Leicas I have had. This includes M2, M3, M4 and M6. Now the Canon P I had was much noisier. Maybe this had something to do with the fact that the P was a budget model of the VI series.
Maybe Leica didn't like a metal shutter because it would show wrinkles and that wouldn't be Leica like. Besides, most Leicas don't get used that much so there is less chance of burning a hole in the curtain. :D :D :D :D
Kim
Not true, Kim, thin titanium sheet burns a heck of a lot better than rubberized cloth, that just smoulders.If you think about it, it might ignite the magnesium body:eek: :eek: The whole camera might explode in your hands if you photograph a sunset!!:eek: :bang: :D
Gabriel M.A.
10-04-2006, 05:43
Frank:
Harley Davidson Motorcycles are designed to be loud - many riders vocalise that quiet pipes kill....
The harley people would think us crazy for saying that quiet = quality
Harley Davidson motorcycles have a unique sound. People think they are designed to be loud. I have seen many ego-compensators riding Harleys which have clearly been modified to be even louder.
To each their own. If somebody thinks that turning heads by waking up the neighbourhood or drowning a conversation hundreds of feet away is a "good" thing, well, that's their choice. Reminds me of those kids that put used milk cartons to rub against their back wheel, because "it sounds cool". Then again, it may be the same kind of person who is talking at the top of their lungs on their cellphone, or forgets to use his/her inside voice at a restaurant.
To each their own.
Sound is an extremely important marketing aspect. Car manufacturers have special sound labs and spend many millions optimizing sound performance, down to the clikc of the switches. It does sell cars. It is deliberate that BMW, Mercedes and Jaguar for instance each have their own sound signature.
Hi Jaap,
Not true, Kim, thin titanium sheet burns a heck of a lot better than rubberized cloth, that just smoulders.If you think about it, it might ignite the magnesium body
Powdered titanium catches fire at over 600 °C if I remember correctly. Since ignition temperatures are a function of material shape, a sheet of titanium is unlikely to be set on fire just by sunlight through a lens, and if you've got this kind of heat in your camera a cloth curtain definitely wouldn't "just smoulder". As for the magnesium body, since it is a very good heat conductor, a block is much more difficult to set on fire than the material in powdered form.
If you're worried that your titanium shutter curtains might catch fire, try focusing a lens on a sheet of aluminium foil and setting that on fire, the temperatures should be similar (+/- 30-40K)
Philipp
From a different side, wouldn't the use of rubberized silk or whatever, be a deliberate design decision? I can't really believe that they'd decide to use such a cloth mechanism instead of metal if they didn't see an advantage.
Cloth has been used for focal plane shutters since the 19th century. It was simply the established material for the job.
Zeiss had to start using a vertically-travelling metal shutter curtain to work around Leitz patents on focal plane shutters in 35mm cameras.
Philipp
See my smileys, Philipp?;)
See my smileys, Philipp?;)
I guess over all the :eek:s and :bang:s I overlooked the :D.
Philipp ;)
BrianShaw
10-04-2006, 06:13
Sound is an extremely important marketing aspect. Car manufacturers have special sound labs and spend many millions optimizing sound performance, down to the clikc of the switches. It does sell cars. It is deliberate that BMW, Mercedes and Jaguar for instance each have their own sound signature.
Indeed... even the "cheap" makes and models of cars have engineered sounds. Generally they attempt to make them sound "richer" and "better constructed" as well as maintaining distinctive acoustic qualities. This helps blind drivers identify the type of car they are driving. Acoustic engineering is obviously "over-engineering" in a well-made car but in the cheaper brands it is a concerted attempt to imply adequate-engineering to potential customers. :D
The Lockheed SR - 71 Blackbird is made from titanium,interestingly, when I was at school it melted at 1700°c
BrianShaw
10-04-2006, 06:16
So as not to make the birds fly off, not to make the animals run away, not to make the people turn round....
So it's true :confused: ... street photographers generally take pictures of peoples backs :)
The Lockheed SR - 71 Blackbird is made from titanium,interestingly, when I was at school it melted at 1700°c
You melted down an AEROPLANE when at school???:eek: :eek: :eek:
You melted down an AEROPLANE when at school???:eek: :eek: :eek:
At every opportunity
back alley
10-04-2006, 06:23
good morning all!
this has been quite the discussion so far and civil too!
from what i have read i conclude that marketing is a big factor and the influence of others to convince us of a need that may not necessarily exist. it seems we have been trained to believe that quiet equals quality.
but the key factor may well be our own insecurity in that we are self conscious about taking people pictures and prefer a stealthy approach where attention is not directed at us.
perhaps i'll view this differently after my morning coffee or after more arguments have been made.
joe
I always preferred quiet motorcycles.
On the cloth-versus-metal question, earlier this year I replaced a worn out cloth shutter on my Nikon SP with a new titanium shutter. No meaningful or perceptible difference in sound between it and either of my cloth-shutter S3s. So I don't think the material itself is critical, except how it affects the overall shutter design.
Not true, Kim, thin titanium sheet burns a heck of a lot better than rubberized cloth, that just smoulders.If you think about it, it might ignite the magnesium body:eek: :eek: The whole camera might explode in your hands if you photograph a sunset!!:eek: :bang: :D
As well it should! :)
My Kiev II is just as quiet/as loud as my Leica M2, and less loud than my Leica III. As long as they don't make the noise of my Pentax MX, it's fine.
I'll have to remove some files from my gallery now, Frank....
Having never used a Leica, my quietest camera is a Kiev 2 at the 25/50 range of shutter speeds. The 1/10th speed has a kind of stealthy whisper to it.
Jaap, I"m okay with the existing cache of sunset photos, I just don't thihnk we need to add more.
(This is all tongue in cheek, you know, right?) :)
BrianShaw
10-04-2006, 06:42
... seems we have been trained to believe that quiet equals quality ...
But, it does... sort of. In clockwork mechanisms 'quiet' equals tighter tolerances. Tighter tolerances = more challenging engineering/manufacturing. More challenging engineering/manuafacturing = higher cost. Higher cost = evidence of quality. In clockwork mechanisms this generally leads to greater accuracy and precision... when in proper working order and when properly adjusted. But the trade-off is that a little dirt might cause the clockwork to stop functioning, whereas a "lower quality" (e.g. noisier, looser, cheaper) clockwork mechanism will keep running... albeit psooibly less precisely and less accurately. It's a trade-off that must be made based on user needs/requirements.
What's missing in this, and the 'quality discussion' on APUG is agreement (or even understanding) of what "quality" really is and how it impacts us as buyers and users. Frank, to name an individual, equates quality with "head-games" that lead to him being a better photographer. (I hope I 'm accurately capturing one of your theses, Frank). Others may equate quality with durability, while others may equate quality with impact on world peace, intenational poverty, and inmdustrial contributions to global warming.
Discussions of "quality" are interesting but often get wrapped around the axle because of differing definitions and differing needs.
Gabriel M.A.
10-04-2006, 06:45
I concur (w/Vince), my quietest camera is my Rolleiflex Automat IV, followed by the Kiev III, then the Leica M6. I have held and used other M6 bodies, and some are slightly louder than others.
Whether you can conclude that is "my insecurity" and "marketing-induced" awareness, that's up to you. What I want is what matters, not what you think.
I always find cameras are quieter than usually thought. Hold them at arms length rather at the eye and so not so near the ears - and notice the difference.
So I think the 'Batteries Not Included' blog man is waffling a bit when he says:
"Footnote: The Olympus 35SPn is a great, compact camera with an excellent lens - but it's not the one I would bring with me for candid street photograpy a lot due to the shutter sound."
Suppose he's got to justify his other expensive kit though ;-)
good morning all!
this has been quite the discussion so far and civil too!
from what i have read i conclude that marketing is a big factor and the influence of others to convince us of a need that may not necessarily exist. it seems we have been trained to believe that quiet equals quality.
but the key factor may well be our own insecurity in that we are self conscious about taking people pictures and prefer a stealthy approach where attention is not directed at us.
perhaps i'll view this differently after my morning coffee or after more arguments have been made.
joe
So in effect you’re saying we’re in part being tricked by the manufactures and in part victims of our own insecurities and reluctance to take responsibility for our actions?
PS:D
back alley
10-04-2006, 06:58
gabriel, i said 'we', i am including myself in this discussion. no personal accusations are implied.
'...Discussions of "quality" are interesting but often get wrapped around the axle because of differing definitions and differing needs...'
this seems to fit. my experience was that a quiet shutter did not fit my needs as much as a modern camera did.
and folks, please keep in mind, this is an open discussion about shutter sounds and the quiet of a photo taking process not necessarily about specific brands.
joe
The quieter the cam, the more I enjoy it somehow, but many of my cams are not all that quiet and most of the time folks don't even notice them. My FSU cams have a pretty distinct CLUNK and my Nikon SLR's have a bit of CLACK. My quietest cams are my XA, QL17 and Rolleiflex. My absolutely quietest cam is my Canon digicam. It makes no noise at all.
Gene
back alley
10-04-2006, 07:02
So in effect you’re saying we’re in part being tricked by the manufactures and in part victims of our own insecurities and reluctance to take responsibility for our actions?
PS:D
too deep for me sir;)
marketing is a powerful tool as is the influence we allow others to have on us. why do we post threads about what lens we should buy next or what to take on holidays with us? sure, it's mostly fun but we also like to know what others think or what they might o in a the same situations.
we are human and that is part of who we are.
joe
So in effect you’re saying we’re in part being tricked by the manufactures and in part victims of our own insecurities and reluctance to take responsibility for our actions?
PS:D
I buy this argument.
Gabriel M.A.
10-04-2006, 07:47
Joe: the "you" is not you you. It's a general you.
One can get so misinterpreted (or like a dear leader would say, misinterpretated)
I guess I forgot the " :D "
So in effect you’re saying we’re in part being tricked by the manufactures and in part victims of our own insecurities and reluctance to take responsibility for our actions?
PS:D
OK, let me restate, I buy this argument, but the trickster is not necessary the manufacturers, but also the users who have created an artificial need.
OK, let me restate, I buy this argument, but the trickster is not necessary the manufacturers, but also the users who have created an artificial need.
__________________
Dad with a Camera
My Gallery
rover's world
It’s whatever the received wisdom is, few people here are able actually test any of these specifications we base our opinions on, we only know what we are told by others. We are open to all types of manipulation, from a number of sources I know a bad lens review will have me doubting the evidence of my own eyes, and good one make me see or at least look for things that aren’t there.
back alley
10-04-2006, 08:22
Joe: the "you" is not you you. It's a general you.
One can get so misinterpreted (or like a dear leader would say, misinterpretated)
I guess I forgot the " :D "
thanks for the clarification, i thought i pissed you off.
joe
There are cases: theatre, (mentioned already) or T Woods putting where noise will get you thrown out, or into water obstacle, with friendly gators.
Additionally wild animals have amazing reflexes, even a house dog can move his/her eye balls on the precursor noise from a SLR/rgfdr! I don't know where I still have the photo cause it was a failure, the dog (a bitch) was supposed to be looking at the food not panicing at the noise from the camera.
Shy people will lynch you (or be more photo shy) if they hear noise, or see lever wind operating...
Lastly LTM leicas are noisy from the exposed rotating shutter speed dial, the contax II were a lot quieter metal slats not with standing. The Ms are a lot quieter than LTM cameras, by then the Contax were near history.
Noel
It’s whatever the received wisdom is, few people here are able actually test any of these specifications we base our opinions on, we only know what we are told by others. We are open to all types of manipulation, from a number of sources I know a bad lens review will have me doubting the evidence of my own eyes, and good one make me see or at least look for things that aren’t there.
That is just my opinion too, obviously no more or less valued than anyone elses.
But it is called received wisdom not received nonsense. It must hold some value, the experiences of those that came before us.
back alley
10-04-2006, 09:32
one of my favourite posters from the 60's...
"a man can make the same mistake for years and call it experience."
joe
one of my favourite posters from the 60's...
"a man can make the same mistake forever and call it experience."
joe
Hrrrumpph!
:)
one of my favourite posters from the 60's...
"a man can make the same mistake forever and call it experience."
joe
Being older than an M3 must be an interesting 'experience' :D
back alley
10-04-2006, 09:47
Being older than an M3 must be an interesting 'experience' :D
and i assume you have such same aspirations my young friend?
hard to achieve if you piss off a sicilian...;)
j/k!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and i assume you have such same aspirations my young friend?
hard to achieve if you piss off a sicilian...;)
j/k!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Aww, but I've always wanted to wake up with a horse-head on my pillow beside me :(
back alley
10-04-2006, 09:55
i'm never cruel to animals...just people :)
Hey, this is getting funny!!!
Hi Joe, hi folks,
my 2 cts :
I got my first M6 because of issues avoiding shots at Jazz concerts and theater. Most interesting expression on the musicians/actors face and dead silence :o . The last note played and the audience still holding back on the cheer. I didn't take these shots because I don't earn a living on it. I would have been annoyed, if anyone had - with a SLR.
The sound, that "sklosh ... srrrrttt" of my former T90 (1.2/85L; 2.8/200; TMY-800 ISO) was just too disturbing. Speed wasn't an issue here :D but the noise really was. After getting used to the RF, I abandoned my T90's and finally sold the stuff off the pay for the RedDot GAS - at least partly. You've been there, I guess...
If taking pictures gets disturbing of course doesn't only depend on the sound of your camera but more on the overall attitude and apporach towards people. The M sound helps not to be "in the face" - and "in the ear" for that matter, that's why I like it.
the deaf man says "what shutter sound?"
Rich Silfver
10-04-2006, 12:47
So I think the 'Batteries Not Included' blog man is waffling a bit when he says:
"Footnote: The Olympus 35SPn is a great, compact camera with an excellent lens - but it's not the one I would bring with me for candid street photograpy a lot due to the shutter sound."
Suppose he's got to justify his other expensive kit though ;-)
You can suppose whatever you want but I have no need to justify my other cameras (none of them costing > $1,000 by the way). Not sure what called for that comment.
I like the Olympus 35Pn - but it's louder than other cameras I have - so I may be less inclined to use it for certain type of photography. Why is that 'waffling' or 'justifying'?
But it is called received wisdom not received nonsense. It must hold some value, the experiences of those that came before us.
Without debate received wisdom is just dogma, and this is been a debate so a far. We can all see farther standing on the shoulders of others the trick is standing on the best shoulders
chris91387
10-04-2006, 13:53
***click***
***CLICK***
***CLICK***
***CLICK***
***CLICK***
***CLICK***
that's the sound of one of my dream cameras: Nikon F2AS with MB-1/MD-2 combo with the classic mf 80-200 2.8. (imagine me doing that barking sound tim allen used to make on "home improvement")
but i can appreciate the soothing sound of a leica as much as the flapping sound of a hasselblad and the film-eating/battery-draining rapid-fire of a tricked out slr. all are good sounds.
it's like comparing the rumble of an old muscle car V8 to the sound of a ferrari. two totally different sounds that ellicit different emotions...at least to me they do, anyway.
- chris
anyone want to start a mac vs. pc war?
anyone want to start a mac vs. pc war?
VI is a far better editor than Emacs, and anyone that says otherwise will be first against the wall.
You can suppose whatever you want but I have no need to justify my other cameras (none of them costing > $1,000 by the way). Not sure what called for that comment.
Did you note the smiley?
I like the Olympus 35Pn - but it's louder than other cameras I have - so I may be less inclined to use it for certain type of photography. Why is that 'waffling' or 'justifying'?
The article was about using it for candid street photography - where I am sure there will be more ambient noise that the difference in the apparent level of shutter sounds - especially if the subject is further away that the camera is from your ear .......
The article was about using it for candid street photography - where I am sure there will be more ambient noise that the difference in the apparent level of shutter sounds - especially if the subject is further away that the camera is from your ear .......
While I have argued that I don't mind the sound of any shutter when shooting, in the particular instance that Richard was talking about it did make a difference as he stated in his article, it was heard over the ambient noise of the SF traffic.
Richard is not alone in his opinion, at least not as alone as I am in mind. Nothing wrong with either.
Rich Silfver
10-04-2006, 15:12
The article was about using it for candid street photography - where I am sure there will be more ambient noise that the difference in the apparent level of shutter sounds - especially if the subject is further away that the camera is from your ear .......
Not quite true, and as I also wrote:
"As I was taking a photo at an intersection (with the normal amount of mid-day San Francisco traffic) people did notice the sound as the shutter went off as they turned around and looked."
I've taken 'candid street photos' with a number of cameras (film, digital, rangefinders, SLR's) and even though ambient sound sometimes does drown out any shutter sound - this is not always the case.
Having said that, the best camera for anyone is probably one that the person feels comfortable with in the particular shooting situation - regardless of shutter sound.
Edit: Didn't see Rover's post before I made my now somewhat redundant entry.
Gabriel M.A.
10-04-2006, 19:48
thanks for the clarification, i thought i pissed you off.
That's ok, Joe. I'm (almost) used to it; people thinking I get pissed off easily. Which in the U.K. would mean I get drunk easily, but that's another matter entirely.
I am so wubable, I weally am. I guess my eye-batting doesn't show online.
Gabriel M.A.
10-04-2006, 19:50
***CLICK***
***CLICK***
***CLICK***
***CLICK***
***CLICK***
that's the sound of one of my dream cameras: Nikon F2AS
I see you are secure and unabated by marketing (and engineering) jibbi-jabba ;)
back alley
10-04-2006, 20:20
That's ok, Joe. I'm (almost) used to it; people thinking I get pissed off easily. Which in the U.K. would mean I get drunk easily, but that's another matter entirely.
I am so wubable, I weally am. I guess my eye-batting doesn't show online.
pissed = drunk in canada
pissed off = mad/angry
pissed on = all wet ;)
BrianShaw
10-05-2006, 05:38
Wow, what a wonderfully versatile word.
Wow, what a wonderfully versatile word.
In England “pissed” is just one of about 40 words or phrases that mean drunk, it’s nice to know we can still excel at something!!
It's like the Inuit who have 40 different words for the slight variations in "snow".
Ya, like that but a more welcoming environment
Gabriel M.A.
10-05-2006, 06:36
Snow is free...
Well, there is this ski-jumping club which makes its own snow right before Winter. Hmm, ok, not all snow is free. Just like not all beer is not free.
Is there a place where there are 40 different words for slight variations of "sex"? That probably is a very very welcoming environment :angel: -- no need for quiet cameras there, perhaps?
BrianShaw
10-05-2006, 07:04
In England “pissed” is just one of about 40 words or phrases that mean drunk, it’s nice to know we can still excel at something!!
Wow... what a wonderfully versatile country!
mc_vancouver
10-05-2006, 07:49
Back to quiet cameras: I like being able to take pictures in museums and galleries (when the guard is distracted). I really liked my Konica Hexar in its silent mode and bemoan selling it. You know, one thing that has always been very satisfying is the sound of a cloth-shutter Leica at 1/30th of a second or less. Now I don't know which Leica has the nicest, solidest, most satisfying sound, I'll have to leave that to those of you who have owned, or currently own, several, but of the few I have used, the M3 had a great shutter, with that little spring noise as it released. Oooh, baby.
ErnestoJL
10-05-2006, 07:56
Thinking about noise, I have to say that my Contax II is extremely silent, almost as a new M6. The Kiev I own is also quiet (for Kiev standards).
I found that the particular noise of some leaf shutters (Copal SVE, loud and high frequency pitched-metallic-) is a nice way to get people staring at you when doing some street shooting, it is to point at you, one way or another. Other small leaf shutters perform better in terms of noise, but the average people will easy detect high frequency noises than low frequencies.
When shooting a wedding or a family gathering noise can be disturbing much more than if using an electronic flash.
In fact I like quiet cameras for the a/m reasons.
Ernesto
mc_vancouver
10-05-2006, 12:04
A thought and a question: why can't digital cameras have an electronic shutter that has no moving parts, but instead turns on/off the ccd or some other electronics to simulate various shutter speeds? For a totally silent camera.
Joe Brugger
10-05-2006, 12:23
I tend to take photos with family and such...I like the quiet shutter so that they don't constantly look at the camera when I want them to just act natural.
My first M2 arrived when I had to take a lot of photos of public meetings; nothing was worse than having a couple dozen heads snap toward you when tripping the average early-70s slr.
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