Thoughts - The Future of the M-Line

[Bully]

Hello,

when the new M8 will be presented on the photokina in September what will happen to the M7 and the MP?

Possible answers:

I could imagine that the M8 will replace the M7

The MP could stay for a long time to be the all-mechanical equivalent of the all-automatic M8

What are your thoughts?

Greetings
Bully

[Nachkebia]

I hope they will leave MP, planning to buy it until christmas :)

[2REP]

don't kill the MP line ... I'm saving really hard here trying to buy one !!!

[jaapv]

IMO it would be more than surprising, even inconceivable, that they would discontinue the film line of camera's. Why should they? It is a fully developed product, no investment in R&D, with a solid base of regular customers. There may be a waiting list for a while, as production facilities may have to be diverted to the M8 temporarily. Maybe- just maybe, in the future it might be limited, imho, to the a-la-carte line.

[ClaremontPhoto]

Are they making the M8 themselves?

[Nachkebia]

I am sure zeiss is dreaming about leica discontinuing film cameras :)

[Jon Graham]

IMO it would be more than surprising, even inconceivable, that they would discontinue the film line of camera's. Why should they? It is a fully developed product, no investment in R&D, with a solid base of regular customers. There may be a waiting list for a while, as production facilities may have to be diverted to the M8 temporarily. Maybe- just maybe, in the future it might be limited, imho, to the a-la-carte line.

I think you are correct: after the M8 is caught up with deliveries (or present M7/MP inventory is depleted) it will be M7MP a la carte only.

[rxmd]

I don't think they would limit themselves to the à-la-carte line of film cameras - partly because it is part of Leica's business model at the moment to turn out limited edition series that will be bought over and over again by collectors.

Philipp

[jaapv]

Are they making the M8 themselves?
As far as I know -yes, the M8 will be built in Solms.

[Uncle Bill]

If Leica kills the M7 and MP, they will be treading into unkown territory away from what I call the camera business and into really high end consumer electronics with a short shelf life.

I hope they keep the MP because I want to buy one at some point.

Bill

[Mark Norton]

Leica have said they will continue to produce the film cameras for as long as there's demand. I think it's neat to run the three cameras in parallel - film/mechanical, film/electronic and digital, all with compatible lenses and (probably) some accessories.

I also believe the M8 will be built in Solms, though I would be surprised if Leica were getting into the business of stuffing circuit boards. It's common to contract out this work to specialists who have the expensive build and test equipment and have enough work to keep it busy all the time.

I expect that the M8 electronics will come in as a small series of completed and tested assemblies. If it's anything like the M7, it will be implemented on a flex print with some sections separated by press-together connectors so that sections prone to damage from exterior influences can be replaced individually. On the M7, for example, the circuitry for firing the flash is separate from the main electronics to allow servicing when someone's flash has cooked the electronics.

What's also likely is that the electronics can be aligned using a test rig attached to the camera with all settings maintained in flash memory which means the camera can be aligned without taking it apart and to a consistent standard.

[Nachkebia]

I will have great lought if main electronics stuff will be done by panasonic :D :D :D

[Ben Z]

Leica have said they will continue to produce the film cameras for as long as there's demand.

From the Leica dealers I've spoken with in my travels (I can't seem to pass a camera store without stopping in for a look and a chat) it appears there is basically no demand. At least seven Leica dealers told me they had not sold one new body in the last year, including ala cart. They figure that whatever few new sales are probably going to the NYC mail-order stores so people can avoid paying local sales tax ($280 on a $3500 body in an 8% state). A couple stores had their Leica franchises pulled because they refused to stock up.

I recall back when the MP came out, Leica said the M6TTL would remain in the catalog. It did, for a couple of months, until their inventory fell below a set point. I figure that's what will happen to the M7 and MP, though there wasn't the ala cart program back then. Perhaps Leica will keep the machinery oiled and turn out a film body on demand for a hefty price. Why shouldn't they?

[jaapv]

[QUOTE=Ben Z]I recall back when the MP came out, Leica said the M6TTL would remain in the catalog. It did, for a couple of months, until their inventory fell below a set point. I figure that's what will happen to the M7 and MPQUOTE]

There is a slight difference here- The M7 with the auto turned off was not much different from the M6TTL. There is a slight basic difference between the M7 and the M8.:p

[Mark Norton]

Let's face it, film is dying on its feet in terms of new sales. Sure, existing Leica users will continue to use film but many will also look to off-load their film cameras to pay for an M8. People looking to buy an M7 or MP now have increased supply as an alternative to buying new which is bound to impact new film M sales and depress secondhand values.

From the point of view of saving Leica commercially, the M8 cannot come a moment too soon. Sport Optics is doing well, compact digital cameras causes problems because they keep running out of cameras made in a batch while there's still a residual demand, and the last statistics I saw said R sales were a third of M sales. The DMR will have improved things a bit but Leica desparately needs the M8 with lens/accessory drag-along to bolster their sales. And, if the R is to have a chance of surviving as a system, they need a lower cost dedicated digital body.

BTW, jaapv, how do you like your 24mm? One report in a French magazine suggested the viewfinder would support it natively, so that the pairs of frames would be 28/90, 24/35, 50/75 which leaves the 21 and 135 at each end of the focal length range out in the cold.

[ampguy]

I'll bet that Matsu****a is well in progress with the takeover plans... :D

I will have great lought if main electronics stuff will be done by panasonic :D :D :D

[ampguy]

lol, didn't realize that Japanese company was a dirty word here!!

[wlewisiii]

When I saw this thread I couldn't help but think of John Lydon singing
"There's no future, no future,
No future for you"

:angel:

William

[Gabriel M.A.]

I think it shouldn't be that cold outside, it's Summer for crying out loud, why is it barely 68 degrees (about 20 in world degrees)?

[John Camp]

I think the M7 and MP will continue for the same reason that LF cameras continue; there will alway be some demand. If an M8 user wants to do serious projection stuff for whatever reason (meetings, academic lectures, etc.) he/she will need to shoot some chrome, and it would be cheaper to buy a new M7 to go with the M8 lenses and accessories, than to buy a whole new system in another brand. Leica only needs to sell 2,000 cameras a year to have roughly a $6,000,000 business. In the world of real small businesses, that's a decent sum, and would support a small shop of specialists. It would, of course, be nothing in the world of big business.

JC

[sherm]

Talk about beating a dead horse!! Go out and take pictures and stop hypothesizing as to what will happen next month or next year. None of us here at this terrific place will be able to control what business decisions Leica makes regarding their business.

The cruelty of it is that Leica can't be a successful company with people saying I'm trying to save up to buy one. At one time or another we all have said that we're saving up to "buy one", know why Kobayashi is doing so well? He's selling to folks like us that can't afford to buy Leica at least not the newest models.

Everyday we read about threads from people that say what a great find they got at an estate sale or antique store. I agree it's terrific to score some exceptional glass for a great price, but Leica can't live on the likes of us.

How many people have purchased new Leica gear in the past 12 mos. from a LISCENSED DEALER, not E*ay, or PNET or even here? There's a great Poll to send out.

The M3's were discontinued quite a while ago, but between those and the M2 there's more of using them than M6's or M7's or even the MP. We say that they are true camera classics which in many ways they are, but we also use them because these are the only Leicas many of us can afford.

Stop worrying about the M8 or even the MP or M7, the great majority of us won't ever be able to justify and or afford them, so WHO CARES.

Now, go out and have a "decisive moment" of your own.:)


Scott

[Mark Norton]

I've just bought a lens hood from a Leica Dealer. Does that count? Oh, and a cable release.

OTOH, I have also bought 5 lenses and had 8 lenses coded in the last 3 months, call it $16000. True, I bought the lenses online and had the coding done by Leica in Solms. I'm much more interested in supporting Leica the manufacturer than I am in supporting Leica dealers because I don't feel I receive value from them.

[jaapv]

BTW, jaapv, how do you like your 24mm? One report in a French magazine suggested the viewfinder would support it natively, so that the pairs of frames would be 28/90, 24/35, 50/75 which leaves the 21 and 135 at each end of the focal length range out in the cold.

I am not much of a wideangle shooter, but that is a very nice lens. :angel: Mind you, I sent it to Solms for coding the week after I got it, so I didn't do too much with it yet.
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e32/jaapv/kermis0032.jpg

[Didier]

when the new M8 will be presented on the photokina in September what will happen to the M7 and the MP?

It is still not officially confirmed that the new digital M with have the name "M8" - that's only a term used in forums so far. But even if, I don't think Leica will give up film based cameras. They'll keep the M7/MP program in production, as they still make money with it (as stated in their last annual business report).

But even without digital it's admittedly difficult for them to improve these models, especially when suffering from the "not-invented-here-syndrome". Though several here would enjoy a new film-based M with 1:1 magnified viewfinder, 1/2000 speed and a parallax correction system for external finders (aka Canon VT 1956)...

Didier

[Mark Norton]

Here's a scan of the leaflet you get back with a coded lens...

It looks pretty certain it was going to be called M8 at the time the leaflet was printed but they may of course have had a change of heart since them to make "know-all" people like me look stupid.

Read the same Annual Report and you'll see there that there's money for digital and sport optics but nothing much else. I think the case is there to continue producing the MP and M7, but I can't see them investing any money in a new film body.

[John Shriver]

The one I saw said M8, thank you.

[rsh]

It is my considered opiniont hat Leica will drop series production of both the MP and M7 within the next year as M8 sales take off . They will likely keep it as an a la carte item only, and it will likely become much more expensive.

A good example is the Browning Superposed. You can special order a new one from Belgium for a minimum of $10,000.00. Most people opt foe a used Superposed or they buy the less expensive Citori, a semi Superposed made by Mirouku in Japan.

For all of the folks that still want a film M, there will be plenty of used ones in like new condition coming on the used market, thus facilitating a price drop in used bodies.

As for myself, I will buy the M8 when one becomes available to me, but I will never part with my 2 M5s, my 2 SL2s or my MP. They will move to a bookcase where I will be able to look at them and remember the precision instruments cameras once were.

[Mark Norton]

I think you're right, the M7 and MP will be built in batches to maintain stock but the secondhand market is a good source of supply. Leica will be much more interested in getting M8s out the door.

[phototone]

Hello,

when the new M8 will be presented on the photokina in September what will happen to the M7 and the MP?

Possible answers:

I could imagine that the M8 will replace the M7

The MP could stay for a long time to be the all-mechanical equivalent of the all-automatic M8

What are your thoughts?

Greetings
Bully

I think the mechanical "M" rangefinder cameras will still be built in "special editions" because Leica has priced these at a point where there is good profit for the company.

This leaves open the possibility for a new film rangefinder built around the shutter mechanism of the M8. A vertical running blade shutter, like in the R9. I would see this taking the place of the M7, so as to rationalize parts between two cameras. Nikon has done this with all its DSLR's and the F6 film camera. The F6 and the D2x, D2h are all built around the same internal chassis and shutter.

I would be inclined to see a M8 and an M8F (film) and of course the endless cosmetic variations of the MP mechanical camera.

[tgpapa]

Talk about beating a dead horse!! Go out and take pictures and stop hypothesizing as to what will happen next month or next year. None of us here at this terrific place will be able to control what business decisions Leica makes regarding their business.

The cruelty of it is that Leica can't be a successful company with people saying I'm trying to save up to buy one. At one time or another we all have said that we're saving up to "buy one", know why Kobayashi is doing so well? He's selling to folks like us that can't afford to buy Leica at least not the newest models.

Everyday we read about threads from people that say what a great find they got at an estate sale or antique store. I agree it's terrific to score some exceptional glass for a great price, but Leica can't live on the likes of us.

How many people have purchased new Leica gear in the past 12 mos. from a LISCENSED DEALER, not E*ay, or PNET or even here? There's a great Poll to send out.

The M3's were discontinued quite a while ago, but between those and the M2 there's more of using them than M6's or M7's or even the MP. We say that they are true camera classics which in many ways they are, but we also use them because these are the only Leicas many of us can afford.

Stop worrying about the M8 or even the MP or M7, the great majority of us won't ever be able to justify and or afford them, so WHO CARES.

Now, go out and have a "decisive moment" of your own.:)


Scott
Great, articulate post. I've been in commercial banking for, well let's say a very long time, and I've seen businesses large and small survive and fail. Leica is a brand as well as a product. Photography, with digital availability for the masses, is clearly either taking pictures or making images, the latter a thoughtful approach to the 'art' rather than the process. While snapshots have always been the engine driving mass camera sales, be they film or digital, the art, the photography if you will, has been done in all sorts of ways from pinhole to megabuck systems. The point is that we are in this for the art of the deal so to speak. And yes the quality of the Leica is part of that art. Which is why I bought another M7. But by all means it will be used to capture what I feel with my eyes. Personally imho film is as much a process as a means to an end. Leica is very much part of that process. Not intending to reignite any debates of film vs. digital, things just are what they are.
Leica is emabarking as someone here said into consumer electronics. I hope the artists using film or digital survive and prosper and Leica is part of that success.
tom

[Mark Norton]

This leaves open the possibility for a new film rangefinder built around the shutter mechanism of the M8.

Every message I've seen from Leica say they will continue production of film cameras for as long as there's demand but that development resources are going into digital and sport optics. I think you'll wait for a long time for a new Leica film camera.