View Full Version : How advanced will the M8 be?
Or should I say, how good of a tool will the M8 be? I hope that when Leica releases the M8 all other makers will envy the Holy Grail of cameras. I hope to see a sensor that will yield spectacular DR and little noise. I really don't care much for all the gimicks of other digital cameras such as GPS, Wireless etc ... I want a camera that will be as close to an MP as possible with the exception of the digital capture. Give me basic metering, a timer and raw files. Let me do all the other work on the PC. I especially want a digital camera that will not be outdated in 6 month to a year. I hope they dont produce an M9 for 5 years. Maybe even send in your M8 for a sensor upgrade.
All this wishing is useless since the camera is alreadyin production. But I do hope we get a heck of a surprise next month. I want to see all those DSLR users (Non sport photographers) say, I wish my camera was that simple and yielded such good images.
back alley
08-10-2006, 09:17
i just wish it was something i could afford.
Gabriel M.A.
08-10-2006, 09:22
That is exactly what I'm hoping for, Jorge. Other than the price ( ::eek:: ), as long as it delivers at the very least the results you get with the DMR, and there is no noise reduction algorithm that gets in the way of my picture capture (or if there is, that there's an option to turn it off) and that high ISO is as clean as at least my Canon 20D is. *Then* I'd be happy.
The viewfinder will be a great deal too; if it's sealed and has the anti-glare optics...then the money would be at least half justified. The other half... that would just be between me and my wallet.
SolaresLarrave
08-10-2006, 09:22
Is it coming out next month?
Wow... time flies. But then, like Joe, I shall worry about its looks because that's as far as I can go about it.
Does the Epson rangefinder need coding on the lenses? Can it be used with regular screwmount glass? Just wondering...
Rich Silfver
08-10-2006, 09:34
I want to see all those DSLR users (Non sport photographers) say, I wish my camera was that simple and yielded such good images.
You should post that on your dSLR exchange forum and see the responses you get ;)
In which noise is the least of the issues imho, if it takes a thick layer of matte glass and in-camera noise surpression to get it noiseless, like Canon I am glad that Leica did not choose that route.. I'll be happy to put up with more noise than my Canon 10D as CCD sensors tend to be, if it is grain-like noise. And not too much of course.;)
Mark Norton
08-10-2006, 12:38
I am expecting the M8 to be a truly stand-out camera. It will not be a hair-shirt back-to-basics camera because it has to produce excellent images without relying on post-processing. Not everyone wants to be a photoshop or equivalent slave.
The occasional feedback from people who have seen the camera is extremely positive, so I am banking on there being something which really sets this camera apart from the competition and our expectations. I have a particular interest in how the viewfinder will be but maybe there is something else which none of us have thought of.
Can't wait to find out!
Gabriel M.A.
08-10-2006, 12:47
Does the Epson rangefinder need coding on the lenses? Can it be used with regular screwmount glass? Just wondering...
No, it doesn't need coding on the lenses, and yes you can use regular LTM lenses just like you can on an M body (with an adapter).
Also, afaik, the M8 doesn't "need" the coding; it's just something that the camera reads so it can do some settings automatically. Unless I read the reports incorrectly...
Nachkebia
08-10-2006, 12:51
1 - Has to have great iso handling (iso 800 has to be cristal clear)
2 - Has to have tonality control (custom curve)
3 - Has to have dedicated BW mode (tonality control, curve, color and so on)
4 - Has to have great DR
5 - Has to shoot at least 500 raw files with one battery charge
6 - Has to power saving mode, when you have minimum control of anything but exposition (raw format)
7 - Has to have native RAW editing application (good one like nikon has)
8 - Has to have simple manu with less settings!! and les buttons!!!
9 - Has to be under $1000 (joke)
Gabriel M.A.
08-10-2006, 12:59
8 - Has to have simple manu with less settings!! and les buttons!!!
Les buttons sont tres cute! ;)
9 - Has to be under $1000 (joke)
I laughed (really). :D I wish I hadn't.
1 - Has to have great iso handling (iso 800 has to be cristal clear)
2 - Has to have tonality control (custom curve)
3 - Has to have dedicated BW mode (tonality control, curve, color and so on)
4 - Has to have great DR
5 - Has to shoot at least 500 raw files with one battery charge
6 - Has to power saving mode, when you have minimum control of anything but exposition (raw format)
7 - Has to have native RAW editing application (good one like nikon has)
8 - Has to have simple manu with less settings!! and les buttons!!!
9 - Has to be under $1000 (joke)
Nachkebia
Too many modes! With good, native raw files, the editing application can handle all the modes you want, Plus noise reduction, custom curves and any other thing you want. I just want the camera to give me the files as RAW as possible and let me handle vignetting, noise, etc in post processing.
Rex
Where I think Leica could come up with something radically different from all the others ?
Easy, providing a real solution to the obsolescence taking place on the digital world.
That is, a camera shell whose digital innards can be adapted and upgraded according to the technological developments taking place.
And at the same time, having a supply of every spare part needed, may it be electronic or mechanical. The first, I'm not sure if they could without owning the ability to manufacture the electronics as well, the second, I think they are well known for (if I'm not wrong, as for today you can still order parts for the M2 and M3).
That would become a world of a difference, but most likely, its cost wouldn't make it worthwile.
Oscar
Nachkebia
08-10-2006, 13:12
rvaubel : what kind of magic you can do later with raw file we all know, but what you will see on location is different story, I want to see BW on the monitor with custom contrast and color settings, because if you see by mistake a flat digital grey bw image you will loose your inspiration :)
AH!
forgot one thing!
10 - Has to have some kind of film grain simulation (controlable in post too) :)
gabrielma : pardon? :D
Nachkebia
What am suggesting is your best resource for the best image is the unadultareted RAW file. I too will set the settings for display only (on the camera LCD) at a much higher contrast, saturation and brightness values than I actually be processing the RAW files to. The reason is not so much for inspiration as it is so I can see the darn thing. After all, the dislay on the LCD is JPEG whether or not you are shooting in RAW. It doesnt do any harm to jack up the contrast, etc to make the image more legible. Likewise, when shooting in B&W the image recorded in RAW has all the color values, notwithstanding the image present on the LCD screen.
In a nutshell, I hope Leica makes the rawest of the RAW files availiable to the photographer, without any sharpening, noise reduction, etc, at all. I realize that the RAW linear files have to be converted to a gamma scale at some point, preferrable in the camera. Even that conversion has a cetain amount subjectivity that I know is inevitable. But let's keep it to a minumum for those that like their RAW files rare!
Carnivoreously Yours,
Rex
Bob Ross
08-10-2006, 14:18
Or should I say, how good of a tool will the M8 be? I hope that when Leica releases the M8 all other makers will envy the Holy Grail of cameras. I hope to see a sensor that will yield spectacular DR and little noise. I really don't care much for all the gimicks of other digital cameras such as GPS, Wireless etc ... I want a camera that will be as close to an MP as possible with the exception of the digital capture. Give me basic metering, a timer and raw files. Let me do all the other work on the PC. I especially want a digital camera that will not be outdated in 6 month to a year. I hope they dont produce an M9 for 5 years. Maybe even send in your M8 for a sensor upgrade.
All this wishing is useless since the camera is alreadyin production. But I do hope we get a heck of a surprise next month. I want to see all those DSLR users (Non sport photographers) say, I wish my camera was that simple and yielded such good images.
Jorge, I think you hit all the bases on what I am hoping for with the M8. If we do get a "heck of a surprise", it most likely will be in generative changes (making a good thing even better) to the basic elements of the M class Leica, the viewfinder, metering system and ergonomic tweaks to accomodate digital capture. I think the digital side has all the potential, in todays technology, to carry the camera to the next major digital capture break through, if one even happens sometime in the coming decade.
Bob
the camera's main attraction will be its ability to take m-mount lenses. the camera will almost certainly not be a technological wonder. that would be a miracle.
John Camp
08-10-2006, 15:06
rvaubel : what kind of magic you can do later with raw file we all know, but what you will see on location is different story, I want to see BW on the monitor with custom contrast and color settings, because if you see by mistake a flat digital grey bw image you will loose your inspiration.
I don't think there's any LCD that can provide this. If people complain about the low resolution of a computer monitor, what can you expect from a camera back LCD? One well known photographer recently complained on one site or another that he'd only found one camera on which the LCD was even really visible in bright sun. I think the Leica, like most modern cameras, will show you an exposure histogram that lets you get an idea of whether you hit the exposure, but that's about it.
I think Epson came pretty close to the ideal with the RD-1. A few analog controls on top, a few menu items, and after that, it's up to post-processing. You can get really good photos right out of the camera; for your art show, you might want to do some tuning up in Lightroom or Photoshop.
JC
you can turn on brightness/sharpness and noise reduction for the best JPEGs possible, or if you are a digital tweaker, you can turn off brightness/sharpness and noise reduction, get lower quality JPEGs, but more tweakable raw files.
Hopefully the M8 will offer this flexibility.
However, it is unreasonable to expect the M8 to have a product lifetime of more than 1 year based on the technologies it is utilizing. Look at Nikon's first DSLR (modular), it's now $400 for collectors and was originally $20K.
I am expecting the M8 to be a truly stand-out camera. It will not be a hair-shirt back-to-basics camera because it has to produce excellent images without relying on post-processing. Not everyone wants to be a photoshop or equivalent slave.
The occasional feedback from people who have seen the camera is extremely positive, so I am banking on there being something which really sets this camera apart from the competition and our expectations. I have a particular interest in how the viewfinder will be but maybe there is something else which none of us have thought of.
Can't wait to find out!
Gabriel M.A.
08-10-2006, 16:09
Look at Nikon's first DSLR (modular), it's now $400 for collectors and was originally $20K.
That's precisely what scares me.
What would be a home-run (not *the* home-run, but a major one, nonetheless), undoubtedly, would be the commitment by Leica to upgrade the sensor for a "nominal" fee, when a new, improved sensor is developed. That way the M8 would not become obsolete, and on a completely new ballgame than any other digital camera out there.
Some members of this forum seem to assume, as a given, that the technology of the M8 will be outmoded in a year, making the camera vertually worthless and useless. While there might have been some merit to this "shelf life of less than a yewr" argument back in the early days of sensor development, such is not the case now. The Megapixel War has thankfully been drawing to a close for the last couple of years within the ranks of the consumer DSLR's
Witness the introduction of the 30D. What was widely expected to be a 10Meg version of the 20D's 8Meg, turned out to be a minor treaking of the existing features, not a sensor upgrade. The "obsoletist" complained bitterly that the 20D wasn't rendered passe' as there was really no reason to sell thier old body to get a new one. I,ve had my 20D for some time now, and the technology is over two years old and shows no sign of becoming "obsolete".
In an example of technology going backwards, the Nikon D80 @ 10Meg may produce an inferior file in some ways, to the camera it replaced, the D70. If noise levels, Low light performance, clean high dynamic range files are important to you, the argument can be made that the D70 is a better camera. The jury is out on this one but we shall see.
I believe digital cameras are emerging as a mature technology. Unlike computers there is a limit to how many pixels you want ti cram on a given sensor's real estate. I believe this number has been reached for the most part, and exceeded in the case of pointn'shoots.
10 Megapixels on the M8 seems like the sweet spot on a 1.3 X sensor. In any case it will produce quality pictures for years to come. For that matter my RD1 @ 6 Megs, will do the same. I expect the M8 to keep providing quality pictures for the life of the camera.
Rex
Some members of this forum seem to assume, as a given, that the technology of the M8 will be outmoded in a year, making the camera vertually worthless and useless. While there might have been some merit to this "shelf life of less than a year" argument back in the early days of sensor development, such is not the case now. The Megapixel War has thankfully been drawing to a close for the last couple of years within the ranks of the consumer DSLR's
Witness the introduction of the 30D. What was widely expected to be a 10Meg version of the 20D's 8Meg, turned out to be a minor treaking of the existing features, not a sensor upgrade. The "obsoletist" complained bitterly that the 20D wasn't rendered passe' as there was really no reason to sell thier old body to get a new one. I,ve had my 20D for some time now, and the technology is over two years old and shows no sign of becoming "obsolete".
In an example of technology going backwards, the Nikon D80 @ 10Meg may produce an inferior file in some ways, to the camera it replaced, the D70. If noise levels, Low light performance, clean high dynamic range files are important to you, the argument can be made that the D70 is a better camera. The jury is out on this one but we shall see.
I believe digital cameras are emerging as a mature technology. Unlike computers there is a limit to how many pixels you want to cram on a given sensor's real estate. I believe this number has been reached for the most part, and exceeded in the case of pointn'shoots.
10 Megapixels on the M8 seems like the sweet spot on a 1.3 X sensor. In any case it will produce quality pictures for years to come. For that matter my RD1 @ 6 Megs, will do the same. I expect the M8 to keep providing quality pictures for the life of the camera.
Rex
three years sounds about right. that's about how long it takes for a digital camera to become hopelessly outdated. the olympus e-1 started out at $2200 in '04, to be replaced next year, and it's now going for $500.
Bob Ross
08-10-2006, 18:45
three years sounds about right. that's about how long it takes for a digital camera to become hopelessly outdated. the olympus e-1 started out at $2200 in '04, to be replaced next year, and it's now going for $500.
But, my E-1 is still taking fine pictures and I've had it since Oct. 03, so that must be a sign of hopeless obsolecence:eek: The camera body is hardly outdated and may, in the long run, be considered one of the better ones made. The image quality and tonal & color gradients are still amongst the best, for what I use it for. It is hopelessly outdated only in the market place and it isn't even made any more to boot. I don't know when I will feel it is hopelessly outdated as a tool? Economically, I suppose I could amortize the body at $700/yr. or around 70¢/image. If you can find one at $500. buy it, because I wont sell you mine for that......:D
I think we will feel the same about the M8.
Bob
Gabriel M.A.
08-10-2006, 19:01
If you can find one at $500. buy it, because I wont sell you mine for that......:D
I think we will feel the same about the M8.
Bob
That's what I'm hoping. I still think Leica should capitalize on that idea: a plan where you can "upgrade" the sensor if they happen to develop a new one. I think they'd have a pretty solid base, and gain those who are very weary of the "obsolescence" thingy dealie. It would also turn the upgrade model on its head.
I don't think Leica is in the new-camera-model-a-year business. I hope.
I still think Leica should capitalize on that idea: a plan where you can "upgrade" the sensor if they happen to develop a new one.........
I don't think Leica is in the new-camera-model-a-year business. I hope.
I don't think the are in the-new-camera-a year business either. For one the can't afford it. And secondly, it isnt necessary for Leica users. My disagreement with you is your believe that the sensor needs a yearly upgrade. We agree that the basic hardware can stay the same, but I claim that the sensor can stay the same too. I think you underestimate the cost involved in upgrading a sensor. Even when a manufacturer starts with a blank slate, its a bitch. Remember, its not just the sensor but also the support chips, firmware etc.
It's not that I don't like the concept of just upgrading the electronics on an M8 but I don't think it is practical.
Rex
Gabriel M.A.
08-10-2006, 19:27
My disagreement with you is your believe that the sensor needs a yearly upgrade.
Huh? When did I say that? I didn't say that. I said "when they develop a new sensor". I don't know how that translated into "yearly".
And you're right, I don't know what the cost of upgrading a sensor would be. I think the M8 would be an excellent chance (or maybe it's too late...maybe the M9??) to test this sort of concept. This way Leica has a body that lasts "despite the digital wars" and also is in line with what we come to expect from the film bodies: a tool that is with you for the long haul, an investment that can be inherited.
obsolete and outdated are different. i said the e-1 is outdated, which it is, but it is not obsolete.
these fantasies about upgradable sensors are weird. if you want to keep up with the newest sensor technology, just buy the newest camera. it can't be that hard to upgrade from the m8 to the m9 if you could get the m8 to begin with.
Gabriel M.A.
08-10-2006, 19:39
these fantasies about upgradable sensors are weird.
So were pocket-sized phones, wireless mice and clickable icons, the Internet...and here we are. :D
you'd have to convince me that upgradable sensors are not within the reach of current technology to make that analogy relevant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nachkebia
rvaubel : what kind of magic you can do later with raw file we all know, but what you will see on location is different story, I want to see BW on the monitor with custom contrast and color settings, because if you see by mistake a flat digital grey bw image you will loose your inspiration.
That's where digital has changed expectations. For years we shot B&W film while looking through a viewfinder that showed the world in color. Now that we can choose to see in mono we complain about how it looks.
The more I use my R-D1, the more I come to terms with its capabilities and the more I like it. It's exactly like using my CLE from a user standpoint, so I just took the money that I'd putting away for the M8 and treated myself to a new Apple 23" cinema display. I've decided that, in combination with the R-D1 will do more for my photography than an M8.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nachkebia
rvaubel : what kind of magic you can do later with raw file we all know.....
The more I use my R-D1, the more I come to terms with its capabilities and the more I like it..
Thats a very good point. The RD1 has so much potential that it would take a long time to learn to fully exploit it. The reason I'm getting the M8 isn't so much because it is a better camera, more it is a camera that I can get fixed. For the long haul I need a camera from a manufacture that will support its product. If Cosina was to partner with someone that had some legs and commitment, I would buy an Rd2 in a heartbeat.
Rex
etrigan63
08-11-2006, 08:12
Leica has always been an "investment" camera: something bought for the long haul. Note that all M lenses fit on all M mount cameras. Sure, the M-series has not been upgradeable, but look at the DMR. Theoretically, when the DMR2 is ever released R-series owners need only remove the DMR and replace it with the DMR2. It may even be possible to upgrade a DMR to a DMR2 via component swapping. I am not a Leica owner (yet), but I have been following them for years and a recently departed family friend had a 1947 Leica that he used to teach me photography when I was a kid. I don't know what his family did with that Leica, but I got the manual.
Bob Ross
08-11-2006, 08:40
obsolete and outdated are different. i said the e-1 is outdated, which it is, but it is not obsolete.
these fantasies about upgradable sensors are weird. if you want to keep up with the newest sensor technology, just buy the newest camera. it can't be that hard to upgrade from the m8 to the m9 if you could get the m8 to begin with.
Sensor upgrades are indeed weird, unless there is a problem of some kind with the original like Kodak had on the 14n. I think it would take a serious break through in sensors and processing to make upgrading desireable at a cost. If it is just pixel cramming for resolution gain at the expence of tonal/color gradient harshness it might not be worth it. A major shift from Bayer to Foveon, organic or Fuji architechture would be another matter.
An M3 with a col. summicron attached has been hopelessly out dated for decades as well, but apparently some still manage to use them to produce great images. Once the sensor quality, with regards to noise and file size are met and are acceptable for publication standards and required print sizes, and it exceeds the resolution and quality that can be obtained from film, what are the reasons for upgrading? I think you can fergetaboutit with regards to sensor upgrades. Its the amateur/hobbyist that's concerned with it's usability in 3-4 years. How old is the RD-1? Aren't they still being bought new @ >$2000.00USD? Are there any working pros that are buying RD-1's today?
There's liitle competition in the DRF market, however when Zeiss enters the market I'm sure their marketing will let us all know of their superior resolution/low noise @ 1600ISO ,yada, yada, yada and at half the price of the M8 ;-) Maybe it's time to start saving for an M9?
I really hate that it isn't 1:1 and that it doesn't have a winder lever. Even if it's merely for decorative purposes. I'm so used to the motion I know I'm going to be doing it in the air anyway.
chrisweeks
08-11-2006, 17:51
all i want is the ability to use my beautiful m-glass on a digi!
800 iso with nice results would be nice as well.
wish it weren't 1.3x crop factor, but ... whatever. i can't have everything!
Nachkebia
08-12-2006, 02:01
Until fuji puts out new technology for sensors there will be no save for digital, I think leica is forced to bring out digital camera, I am sure they did not wanted to create digital camera, not only it will harm leica brand but it will also isolate alot of leicaphils...
Mark Norton
08-12-2006, 05:16
Some weird thinking there.
Digital is the only thing which will keep Leica as an independent camera maker, so to those Leica-philes who feel put out by the introduction of the M8, I'd simply ask: why are you buying so little Leica equipment?
Leica needs more than a warm fuzzy heritage to survive. It needs sales and digital is the best way to get them.
Nachkebia
08-12-2006, 05:20
Mark Norton : exactly, to survive it needs to bring out digital camera no meter how good the medium is, just because there is no other way to survive. it is just pity..
Gabriel M.A.
08-12-2006, 06:09
I also find it interesting that an M8, a camera that still doesn't exist, brings out so many negative comments, than the RD-1, that exists, and is known for having a variety of issues, brings out a variety of positive comments.
You know what I don't like about the M8? It's not out yet.
Nachkebia
08-12-2006, 07:04
gabrielma : I don`t have anything againts M8, I might even buy it, but that does not make digital any better :)
What never fails to surprise me is that people will go out and buy a new car every three years because the old one is "obsolete"and take a 50 % value loss at the same time, yet never complain that their favorite brand is losing its marbles because the 1963 model is worth more now than new. A 50% loss on a 5000 $ camera is better than a 50% loss on a 50000$ car last time I took out my pocket calculator. Btw my 1963 Triumph is as much or more fun to drive than my 2005 Jag, but do I have to hammer Jaguar for building an up to date car? Let's be rational about the M8. Assuming it will be great, taking superb quality pictures now, why should it suddenly be a worthless grotty outdated thing in five years time? I don't see myself selling it anytime soon, and if one doesn't want to sell, the resale value is essentally nil. But that goes for my M3 as well.
Nachkebia
08-14-2006, 02:04
Well, you are very rich, in my country people import used german cars from germany (by themselfs)
HansDerHase
08-14-2006, 02:55
Let's be rational about the M8. Assuming it will be great, taking superb quality pictures now, why should it suddenly be a worthless grotty outdated thing in five years time?
Not that it will be suddenly worthless, but I suspect it will lose value faster then the mechanical wonders of the past. That's because digital relies on highly integrated electronics thats "hard-wired" into the body.
Wheras the electronics and silver-based sensor of the past were replaced easily, the digital electronics and silicon-based sensor will not. The digital sensor and complex electronics is more suspect to failure and degradation with time than mechanics. Hotpixels will show up; color rendition and tonality will degrade; electronics will fail completely all of a sudden and the cost for reapairing will get you two new bodies.
So I bet 15 years from now a M8 (at least as a picture-taking-machine) will have lost much more value than a M? of 15 years ago has lost today, or maybe even 15 years from now.
Lets face it: Times have changed. The value of a digital camera is in the short-lifed elecronics, not the long-lifed mechanics.
The only thing that will last forever are thy lenses. :cool:
But what do I know ... any (working) Leica will be out of my reach for quite some time anyways ... :(
I also don't expect M8 to "hold value" to the same extent as film Ms do, but that's not the point. It is silly to buy cameras as investment, real estate is far better and less risky at that.
I would just be happy to see a digital rangefinder body, reliable enough for professional use. If Leica makes it right, I suspect a surprising number of journalists will adopt this system. This could win Leica back some popularity outside of collectors and "non-mainstream" photographers.
Mark Norton
08-14-2006, 05:02
The issue with the electronics is not that it is fundamentally unreliable but that if a failure does occur, the level of integration is such that you have to replace far more than the (probable) single failing component. Laptops are the same. If one fails and it's not something which is reaily detachable like the keyboard, disk or display, the cost of repairing it may well be uneconomic because the whole system board has to be replaced.
Same issue with cars. As the level of electronics used increases, there's the fear that in 10 years time, they will be consigned to the scrap heap because of electronic failiure rather than rust or mechanical failure of old.
Leica will stockpile replacement electronics for the M8 towards the end of its life so that replacements will be available but estimating how many will be required is tough. Having parts remanufactured at some point in the future is just not an option.
I know of one UK hi-fi manufacturer who has just introduced a new high-end CD player and they have bought two replacement CD drives for every CD player they are making to be sure they can provide service to match the £13k price of the CD player.
Storage media and the camera interface to extract the images are also concerns. Will there be computers with USBII interfaces in 10 years? What will you do with your media reader if it requires an antiquated USB port? Or will there be legacy media readers with current generation interfaces? If not, you might want to save your old computer/operating system and media readers.
Storage media and the camera interface to extract the images are also concerns. Will there be computers with USBII interfaces in 10 years? What will you do with your media reader if it requires an antiquated USB port? Or will there be legacy media readers with current generation interfaces? If not, you might want to save your old computer/operating system and media readers.
Who knows, that is true, but on the other hand, ye olde com-port is still with us after 25 years.
NIKON KIU
08-14-2006, 23:13
Leica will be losing the war with the M8.... they think the M8 would digitize the Leica crowd, its a dream!
Canon and Nikon have the market well in hand...Leica will sell a few thousand M8s...and then they will fold!
Just like the M7,
Kiu
J. Borger
08-14-2006, 23:38
Leica will be losing the war with the M8.... they think the M8 would digitize the Leica crowd, its a dream!
Kiu
No .... the Leica crowd is too conservative ........ it will not be the prime target group.
They want the professionals howling heavy Canon & Nikon cameras around to buy and shoot a Leica in certain situations. Add one to the toolbox --- they often already have the glass.
They will also target the techno and gadget freaks ... who want every new camera around, especially the more expensive ones: shooting all the brick walls around the house to find out if the Leica lenses are realy as sharp as they say.
Last but not least there are the rich kids in town: pop&movie stars, oil sheaks, and every snob you know.... who only go for the red dot.
Wait and see what happens if Paris Hilton shows up with a custom made M8: pink with diamonds;)
In the mean time: the Leica crowd will be on the waiting list, is dreaming of a full frame M9 before they jump..... or sticks with film.
NIKON KIU
08-14-2006, 23:57
..... or sticks with film.
That's what I am talking about...The Leica crowd is well established, and they are not digitizable...most are Throw-backs like we!
Leica will remain as a name on Japenese products, Panasonic cameras come with Leica lenses....up to 8 MP for under $2000....who's gonna pay $5k???!!!
Last nail in the coffin???!!!
Kiu
J. Borger
08-15-2006, 00:19
That's what I am talking about...The Leica crowd is well established, and they are not digitizable...most are Throw-backs like we!
Leica will remain as a name on Japenese products, Panasonic cameras come with Leica lenses....up to 8 MP for under $2000....who's gonna pay $5k???!!!
Last nail in the coffin???!!!
Kiu
Leica is clever enough to realise ... that's why the Leica crowd is not their prime market with the M8.
Not everybody drives a Japanese car because it is might be the most economic choice .....!
Why pay 400$ for D&G jeans if you can buy a nice trouser at Wall Markt for 29$ .... both probably made in China?
I am convinced the M8 wil be a huge succes .. because it will produce excellent pictures .. up to it's reputation ..... There are enough people out there tired of the same old Canon Cmos look! And more important ---- tired to cary a 3 kilo kit to shoot a nice picture ..... or who simply want to buy a new gadget to show off with.
Han
Nachkebia
08-15-2006, 00:23
No doubt it will be great seller, but leica as brand will loose alot.
Just imagine this, after 3 years of M8 on sale, rasale value of M8 will be? still $5000? oh ok okey lets say $3000, but it is imposible, because at that time canon or nikon will have 2398434 giga pixel camera at $200, nobody will buy your 10megapixel noisy M8 :)
Why does anybody want to buy a M8 only to sell it again?:confused: :confused:
I will buy it to keep it and make photographs with it. Resale value is pretty unimportant then.
Nachkebia
08-15-2006, 00:42
Because it is part of owning leica, you buy leica, you pay alot, you get amazing quality, and you know you can sell it anytime :)
On the other hand, SCSI is like 20 years old and was common 10-15 years ago. It was what Apple put in the Mac for example. Since a couple of years it is not really possible to get it at all for Mac. My scanner could not be attached to my now 3 year old Mac due to this, I had to get a new scanner.
I have a legacy HP-IL (Hp interface loop, similar to USB, but some 25 years old) interface on an ISA card. Good luck on finding a (new) computer with the ISA bus today.
My 15 year old Amiga is a pain to boot these days due to degrading floppies and lack of built-in network support.
Painful problems, but they can be worked around with some efforts and cost, at least for some more years (I hope).
/Håkan
Who knows, that is true, but on the other hand, ye olde com-port is still with us after 25 years.
Because it is part of owning leica, you buy leica, you pay alot, you get amazing quality, and you know you can sell it anytime :)
That is always the part that gives me trouble; and when I do, I usually lose a lot of money anyway, so it won't be a new experience.:o
What bothers me most with digital is the insane cost involved.
I (stupidly?) have invested in a digital darkroom. I fear the day when I need to start upgrading it, I am sure I do not want (or even can) spend that money to do that just a few years after.
I took a look at the cost of upgrading my darkroom equipment instead and even though it was some serious money, it looks really cheap compared to the digital darkroom. Problem is that I do not currently have the space for a real darkroom, but some day perhaps?
Given that outlook, I do not want to go for an expensive digital camera anymore, I rather stick with film as it works in both environments. After the next upgrade of my digital darkroom, I will know if it is feasible for me to continue on that route. I hope I can keep using it, but I am not sure.
/Håkan
J. Borger
08-15-2006, 01:09
Why does anybody want to buy a M8 only to sell it again?:confused: :confused:
I will buy it to keep it and make photographs with it. Resale value is pretty unimportant then.
Because a lot of Leica owners are more collectors than photographers.
I had difficult times to sell a 1Ds i bought for Euro 7000 3 years ago for Euro 1500. Lost about half the money on every Canon L lens i sold (because of Canon price drops and money back actions) and because there are enough private people out there selling for low prices.
Yes .. i will also loose big money selling a Leica'.
And not only on a Leica Digital .............. it's because of internet .... in fact everybody buying a new lens is stupid because he can buy for half the money LNIB if he takes the time to look around.
But having the option to buy gear LNIB for half the resale prices also means that if you want to sell your new acquired lens ..... you will also loose half the money. Yes that's the downpart of transparant international markets.
Nobody wants my brand new 75 Summilux for Euro 2000 ... despite the fact it is listed new for Euro 3000.
Try to sell a brand new 50 summicron to a dealer .... 350 Euro maximum.
Try to sell a 50 Summilux pre-asph to a dealer....... 500 maximum.
You can lift the price by selling to private persons.... the Summicron might bring you Euro 700 .. where it is listed Euro 1300 new!
So Leica resale values are not al that great to begin with unless you talk "collectibles" or the latest designs.
Moral of the story .. buy 2nd hand gear lnib if possible and buy to shoot pictures!
money on every Canon L lens i sold (because of Canon price drops and money back actions) and because there are enough private people out there selling for low prices.
Yes .. i will also loose big money selling a Leica'.
And not only on a Leica Digital .............. it's because of internet .... in fact everybody buying a new lens is stupid because he can buy for half the money LNIB if he takes the time to look around.
But having the option to buy gear LNIB for half the resale prices also means that if you want to sell your new acquired lens ..... you will also loose half the money. Yes that's the downpart of transparant international markets.
Nobody wants my brand new 75 Summilux for Euro 2000 ... despite the fact it is listed new for Euro 3000.
Try to sell a brand new 50 summicron to a dealer .... 350 Euro maximum.
Try to sell a 50 Summilux pre-asph to a dealer....... 500 maximum.
You can lift the price by selling to private persons.... the Summicron might bring you Euro 700 .. where it is listed Euro 1300 new!
So Leica resale values are not al that great to begin with unless you talk "collectibles" or the latest designs.
Moral of the story .. buy 2nd hand gear lnib if possible and buy to shoot pictures!
Exactly my experience; the end result is that I usually do not sell stuff that I bought new...
Doubtless that is what will happen to the M8. It may turn into a second body at some point.
Somehow these complaints seem always to be aimed at the M8. I never read anything about the writeoff on Bentley cars, Miele washingmachines, Boeing 747's, Spaceshuttles etc...;)
Nachkebia
08-15-2006, 02:16
I have never sold anything enyway, I am just talking what makes leica brand different from others :)
J. Borger
08-15-2006, 02:34
Exactly my experience; the end result is that I usually do not sell stuff that I bought new...
Doubtless that is what will happen to the M8. It may turn into a second body at some point.
Somehow these complaints seem always to be aimed at the M8. I never read anything about the writeoff on Bentley cars, Miele washingmachines, Boeing 747's, Spaceshuttles etc...;)
Strange is not it? We have to defend ourselfs wanting an M8 instead of a Canon 5d ... "which is so great value" .. and full frame :rolleyes:
IT's just rationalising choices or non-choices ......... we are guilty of the same behaviour but at least admit it.
What realy counts is 10 MP marks the end of the MP race .. for the sane that is. Other aspects become more important and come into play ...... i already reached the point with the R-D1, never used the 1Ds after it, never missed the additional pixels or felt limited because of the cropfactor....... never looked back: i simply take better pictures with my R-D1 and enjoy the use of the small camera much more than a 3 kilo DSLR.... that are the aspects that count for me.
The M8 will be my last camera for let's say ... 3-4 years.
Han
Maybe Leica should sell out to Panasonic or whoever while the value is still there? Maybe they should enter the SW plug-in market with an official Leica photoshop Plug-In so anyone can take "Leica Look" photos. Maybe they should bring in a team of Japanese manufacturing consultants like Porsche did in the '80s to save the company?
That's what I am talking about...The Leica crowd is well established, and they are not digitizable...most are Throw-backs like we!
Leica will remain as a name on Japenese products, Panasonic cameras come with Leica lenses....up to 8 MP for under $2000....who's gonna pay $5k???!!!
Last nail in the coffin???!!!
Kiu
who's gonna pay $5k???!!!
Kiu
I am, Mark is - twice, Han is and so are 33 that we know about on this forum alone. Canon and Nikon sell plenty of digitals at nearly double that price. Camera stores I know of have ordered a considerable number. There are billions of people on this world. If one in 100.000 orders one, it will keep the Leica factory busy for a long,long time.....
Bob Ross
08-15-2006, 08:10
Leica will be losing the war with the M8.... they think the M8 would digitize the Leica crowd, its a dream!
Canon and Nikon have the market well in hand...Leica will sell a few thousand M8s...and then they will fold!
Just like the M7,
Kiu
Your view of the global economic market dynamic as a war is interesting and one that I see on several forums. It brings images of corporate giants laying slain in the streets oozing green capital fluids:eek:
If you looked a little deeper, you might see the dynamic cooperative agreement and interconnectiveness at play, but that doesn't have the drama value for forum topic discussions, as life and death stories do:rolleyes:
It brings images of corporate giants laying slain in the streets oozing green capital fluids:eek:
That is really funny! http://www.freewebdesign.be/smileys/images/laughing/laughing-smiley-018.gif
Leica will be losing the war with the M8.... they think the M8 would digitize the Leica crowd, its a dream! Canon and Nikon have the market well in hand...
Most of us 'Leica crowd' are RF users for whom DSLRs are hardly of more use than a cautery on a wooden leg. http://tinyurl.com/rv7w/lol.gif http://tinyurl.com/rv7w/clindoeildroit.gif
There is no choice for us out of film, R-D1 or M8.
So forget Canon and Nikon, they don't play any role here.
Unless Cosina/Zeiss awakes, the only possible 'ennemy' so far is Leica.
leica: the camera you buy to sell!
Bob Ross
08-15-2006, 14:00
So forget Canon and Nikon, they don't play any role here.
Unless Cosina/Zeiss awakes, the only possible 'ennemy' so far is Leica.
One of the most curious things to me is why hasn't any mfr., other than Epson, created an optical viewfinder on a digicam that is an oversized window with a floating frame, even if it had less field than 100% framelines for safety. Take a digicam with a 35-105 (35eqv) lens and put a 28-84 window zoom finder and then put frame lines that approximate 33-100 (95%) that zoom along with the lens. All other features could stay "digicam". You would have a poorman's wantabe Leica.
Is it out of respect for Leica or have the designers never looked through an M class Leica? I read that the demise of the optical viewfinder on digicams was a result of a survey of users, of course, the survey sample was thousands of teen aged Japanese school girls:bang:
Bob
Exactly my experience; the end result is that I usually do not sell stuff that I bought new...
Doubtless that is what will happen to the M8. It may turn into a second body at some point.
Somehow these complaints seem always to be aimed at the M8. I never read anything about the writeoff on Bentley cars, Miele washingmachines, Boeing 747's, Spaceshuttles etc...;)
The difference being most of us buy used Leica equipment. Let the rich guy take the hit. I bought a used MP and used it for two plus years and sold it for 100 USD less then what I paid. It's like renting an MP for 40 clams a year. One of Leicas flagship products at a bargin basement rental price.
With the M8 the paradigm changes. Zeiss will come to market with a digital RF that equals or surpasses the M8 performance @ considerable savings. The M8 could very well be 'worth' less then half of the original purchase in little less then a year, and all but impossible to sell. The brand loyalty for Leica products will not hold up with the majority of present day Leica owners with respect to the digital electronic products. The smart buyer realizes that Leica is using an off the shelve CCD, the Leica 'look' can be had with Leica lenses on any quality engineered digiRF. Why buy a Leica product at such a high price when you'll be able to buy a Zeiss DRF within the year? Just because it says Leica on it? What's the ratio of Leica D-LUX 2 owners to Panasonic DMC-LX1 owners? The new digital rangefinder paradigm, same as the old one?
..... Why buy a Leica product at such a high price when you'll be able to buy a Zeiss DRF within the year?
Do you know something that noobody else knows? Clue us all in about the RD2...when is that coming out? I wished you would have informed us all about how long it was going to take Leica to release the M8 and I wouldn't have waited for a year to buy the RD1. To think I could have been enjoying my RD1 for almost 2 years instead of waiting!
When exactly is the Zeiss DRF coming out. What are some of its features? We all have so many questions, maybe you could start a Digital Zeiss thread. If this forum is any indication, we sure all luuuv to speculate.
Let the Digital Zeiss Thread begin !
Rex
J. Borger
08-15-2006, 23:11
Here we go again .... "why should we buy this if we can buy Zeiss much cheaper"?
THis question can be raised for every single product on the planet ...... because we have a CHOICE!!!!
You guys are killing our economy with this way of thinking ... and the Japanese economy in the near future too ... all we need is some good cheap Chinese cameras!
For god sake .... i would perhaps not buy the Zeiss camera because it does not look as nice as a Leica ... the same way a Toyota does not look as nice as my Alfa Romeo! Yes both cars take me from A to B. And the Toyota is probably better value .... glad i have a choice in this world!
If this forum is any indication, we sure all luuuv to speculate.
Let the Digital Zeiss Thread begin !
Rex
I was being sarchastic. Maybe I should learn to use those smiley icons.
I was trying to make the point that if all you ever do is wait for the next latest and greatest, you will never actually get anything. I get my RD1 7 months ago and am glad I didn't wait for the M8. I expect to get the M8 too, and no, that won't make my RD1 worthless. I buy cameras to use them, not as investments.
Rex
Here we go again .... "why should we buy this if we can buy Zeiss much cheaper"?
THis question can be raised for every single product on the planet ...... because we have a CHOICE!!!!
You guys are killing our economy with this way of thinking ... and the Japanese economy in the near future too ... all we need is some good cheap Chinese cameras!
For god sake .... i would perhaps not buy the Zeiss camera because it does not look as nice as a Leica ... the same way a Toyota does not look as nice as my Alfa Romeo! Yes both cars take me from A to B. And the Toyota is probably better value .... glad i have a choice in this world!
I'm a capitalist at heart. Yes, by all means buy what you will. I think it's great that people who bought 2500USD RD1s will be buying M8s at 5000USD a pop. The majority of potential DRF buyers (according to the RFF survey) will be sitting on the fence choosing perhaps to wait for another choice to become available. How long they'll have to wait, not whether there will be an alternative model, is fodder for speculators.
Specifications/performance/quality and service life with respect to price will get the fence sitters reaching for their credit cards to buy a DRF.
I would like to see a survey that asks, of those not pre-ordering an M8, what % would buy a "next generation" DRF (not RD1 generation) from a respected company already in the camera manufacturing business, and list various price points that they would then commit to purchase a DRF.
The Alfa Romeo analogy may not be what Leica is shooting for with regards to build quality though :D
I predict the image quality from the m8 will be nothing revolutionary. It 'might' be evolutionary, but you'd expect that.. Other than the fact that you're able to use superior Leica lenses on it to produce nice quality bokeh. The M8 will be just another digicam with all the limitations of digital, just like how the Leica film-M is just another box to hold film..
It may not be revolutionary, but it may be evolutionary enough that it represents a pinnacle of overall digital image quality. To wit: the Olympus E-1 has a measly 5MP density, yet many pros who use it, combined with ZD lenses, find that the image quality is something different and more "film-like" than other DSLRs of even higher resolution. I'm not pimping the E-1 or other E series, just saying that the whole is sometimes more than the sum of the parts.
In this case, M glass (whether Leica, Zeiss or other), combined with the characteristics of RF shooting, may make the M8 very special.
J. Borger
08-18-2006, 02:11
I predict the image quality from the m8 will be nothing revolutionary. It 'might' be evolutionary, but you'd expect that.. Other than the fact that you're able to use superior Leica lenses on it to produce nice quality bokeh. The M8 will be just another digicam with all the limitations of digital, just like how the Leica film-M is just another box to hold film..
Jeeze .. must be an awesome camera if you are right.
Never read something as positive and encouraging as this from your hand :)
Mark Norton
08-18-2006, 04:22
Just wondering what all these doom-mongers are going to say when the M8 proves to be the stunning camera we expect. That whining noise you'll be able to hear will be the sound of rapid back-pedalling...
...That whining noise you'll be able to hear will be the sound of rapid back-pedalling...
Would be surprising, Mark.
I'm yet hearing same people claiming that they can do the same with a mere Nikon D80 and, at least, with the latter, they don't get those ugly moiré artefacts and the last Canon digicam is soooo less noisy that it's a shame to pay $5000 for such an obsolete camera!!
:p
RIVI1969
08-20-2006, 07:20
The question of how are we going to extract data in ten years from current USB ports is not a concern right now, of course some kind of devices to couple our current technology with the future one will be created. I rather wonder if film will be easily or available at all in 10 years. Without film all those precious signatured-limited-millenium-a-la-carte-MP's will be useless and of course worthless.
It may not be revolutionary, but it may be evolutionary enough that it represents a pinnacle of overall digital image quality.............
In this case, M glass (whether Leica, Zeiss or other), combined with the characteristics of RF shooting, may make the M8 very special.
That's what many of us hope, and will probable be true. I found my RD1 with Leica glass to be roughly equivelent to my 20D with Canon glass. Each image had its plusses and minusess, but generally the Leica glass and the less aggressive noise reduction pf the Epson, enabled me to move the RD1 up a notch to the 20D level despite having a megapixel disadvantage. However, you can't work miracles... megapixels be megapixels and noise be noise. I don't believe a 5 megapixel Olympus with its tiny sensor sites can ever produce images as good as the 20D.
But remember the M8 is a 10 megapixel camera. That a big jump up from the RD1's 6MP. With the excellent prime glass available, no anti-alaising filters, and intelligent noise reduction firmware, it wouldn't surprise me if the M8 approaches or equals the likes of the Canon 5D. Even if it didn't quite reach the 5D image quality, I would be happy.
I certainly wouldn't be holding my breath for the M9 or the 139megapixel M13 as so many of the "obsoletist" seem to think we ought to.
Rex
Mark Norton
08-20-2006, 08:43
A 10Mp sensor actually only offers a 30% increase in linear resolution. So, take a 30 * 20 R-D1 print and increase the size to 39 * 26 from an M8 and the resolution is the same.
I fully expect the M8 to comfortably out-perform the EOS 5D. An M8 with a 21mm Elmarit or an EOS 5D with whatever 28mm lens Canon will sell you. I know which I'd choose.
Bob Ross
08-20-2006, 08:46
I don't believe a 5 megapixel Olympus with its tiny sensor sites can ever produce images as good as the 20D.
But remember the M8 is a 10 megapixel camera. That a big jump up from the RD1's 6MP. With the excellent prime glass available, no anti-alaising filters, and intelligent noise reduction firmware, it wouldn't surprise me if the M8 approaches or equals the likes of the Canon 5D. Even if it didn't quite reach the 5D image quality, I would be happy.
Rex
Rex,
You might need to recheck your logic:rolleyes: The 5MP Oly E-1 has 6.8µm pixels and the 20D has 6.4µm pixels, so it is the 20D that has the (reletively) tiny sensor sites:p
Also keep in mind that if the M8 uses a derivative of the Kodak KAF-10010 sensor it will also have those 6.8µm sensor sites that can't produce images as good as the 20D:bang:
What you may see after you get finished admiring the resolution is that the Kodak sensor tends to have very nice tonal and color gradients. This may be because the photosites have larger areas due to the FFT structure. They also have high Saturation Signals of 40k electrons, though Canon doesn't publish their specs for comparisons.
The 6MP Sony sensor in your RD-1 and (my KM5D) has 7.8µm sensor sites. Nice images, lower noise at high ISOs, but harsher (for my KM5D) tonal and color gradients than the E-1 (the Sony look=slightly video).
All in fun.
Bob
Rex,
You might need to recheck your logic:rolleyes: The 5MP Oly E-1 has 6.8µm pixels and the 20D has 6.4µm pixels, so it is the 20D that has the (reletively) tiny sensor sites:p .........
All in fun.
Bob
Bob
Perhaps what I should have said is the 5MP vs 8MP handicap of the Oly is just too much for the optical/everything else advantage the Oly may have. Granted, megapixels arent everything but down at these realitively low levels they do have a practical impact on image quality. At the 10MP level of the M8, I wouldn't get too excited about more pixels. Quality, not quantity becomes more determinative.
You make some very good points, however. Makes me happy the M8 will have a Kodak sensor.
Rex
Bob Ross
08-20-2006, 13:43
Bob
Perhaps what I should have said is the 5MP vs 8MP handicap of the Oly is just too much for the optical/everything else advantage the Oly may have. Granted, megapixels arent everything but down at these realitively low levels they do have a practical impact on image quality.
Rex
Hi Rex,
I would say your statement hold true, if there is cropping involved and a very discerning viewer of the prints or if large prints are made. If we call a 300dpi print from the original whole frame a native print, then the 8MP will yield a 7.8" X 11.6" print and the 5MP (4:3) will yield a 6.8" X 8.5" print. If we adjust the dpi on the 5MP image to get 7.8" on the short side, you get 246dpi. An HP paper on printing rez said that the average person couldn't see an improvement after 240dpi. I think you might notice some fine detail gain if you looked closely. Start cropping (and who doesn't crop) and it is a new game where the 10MP will come in very handy. The native print for 10MP is 8.6" X 12.9". Not bad when they used to say that the best quality from a miniature camera (AKA 35mm) was in a 5" X 7" print.....:D
Bob
most viewers cannot discern more than 240 - 300 dpi/ppi @ 10", and ~ 2 dpi/ppi at billboard distances.
There are advantages to actually reducing your file yourself, rather than giving your lab or printer a huger file than it can deal with, namely the ability to control sharpness.
Hi Rex,
I would say your statement hold true, if there is cropping involved and a very discerning viewer of the prints or if large prints are made. If we call a 300dpi print from the original whole frame a native print, then the 8MP will yield a 7.8" X 11.6" print and the 5MP (4:3) will yield a 6.8" X 8.5" print. If we adjust the dpi on the 5MP image to get 7.8" on the short side, you get 246dpi. An HP paper on printing rez said that the average person couldn't see an improvement after 240dpi. I think you might notice some fine detail gain if you looked closely. Start cropping (and who doesn't crop) and it is a new game where the 10MP will come in very handy. The native print for 10MP is 8.6" X 12.9". Not bad when they used to say that the best quality from a miniature camera (AKA 35mm) was in a 5" X 7" print.....:D
Bob
black_box
10-29-2006, 00:25
I noticed obsolete is only being used in terms as in 'obsolete value'... though, performance unthouched;)
A 10Mp sensor actually only offers a 30% increase in linear resolution. So, take a 30 * 20 R-D1 print and increase the size to 39 * 26 from an M8 and the resolution is the same.
I fully expect the M8 to comfortably out-perform the EOS 5D. An M8 with a 21mm Elmarit or an EOS 5D with whatever 28mm lens Canon will sell you. I know which I'd choose.
Ah, but you can put an Elmarit-R 28 ( or a Zeiss Distagon) on the 5D..
That's what I do ( well, not a Elmarit-28 but a Contax 21/2.8 ).
Anyway I hope and expect that the M8 will outperform, but not much, a 5D - at least from ISO 200 to 800.
BTW I have seen Sean Reid's review and what it amazes me is not the noise on the M8 at high ISOs, but the absolute lack of it on the 5D 100% crops.
I seldom use settings above 400 ISO with the Canon, but when I tried 3200 I got way, way more noise that you can see on the review, it's on a pair with the M8 at 2500 but uglier -patchy, filamentous.
I'm wondering if I have a defective unit or it's Adobe Camera Raw so bad..?
Regards
Arturo
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