View Full Version : I want my film advance lever
A lot of people scoffed at the film advance lever on the RD1. Even though it served a purpose (cocking the mechanical shutter) it seemed a little Faux Retro to most. May I purpose an actually use for a winding lever on the M8? I'm sure I'll be laughed off the forum but here it goes.
What if cocking the shutter lever actually generated a little electrical juice to charge a small battery or capaciter to serve the needs of the camera for the next exposure? Not a lot of power is needed to operate the shutter and CCD. After all there is no power hungry auto-focus to worry about. And the LCD screen could operate on any extra power generated and then black out.
Not that you wouldn't want a charged battery for full functionality, but at least a dead battery wouldn't mean a dead camera. Thats part of the Leica ethos or,at least used to be, before the M7. Being battery indepent would have some real practical advantages. On a recent trip to Canada I took four batteries and two chargers. If I had a self charging advance lever, I would have taken only one backup battery at most. Charging batteries turns into a real chore when you have been shooting all day and you have multipe dead batteries to deal before beddy-by.
Before you laugh to hard, consider my current emergency flashlight situation. I got tierd of retreiving dead flashlights during every blackout or earthquake. I finally got a couple flashlights and radios that you wind to generate power. They work every time.
Of course the arguement could going to be made that it would be way to complex and cost to much. It's true, I don't know exactley how much cost it added to my 10 dollar flashlight.
Anyway, it will never happen, but I think it would be cool. And so retro.
Of course, keeping in the retro, analog vein, I want the RD1's mechanical gauges too.
I'm not too optimistic. But I'll be happy enough with the M8 if it meets the current specs as we know them. And please, no feature laden camera with custom goodies buried deep within unfathomable menues.
Rex
Nachkebia
08-10-2006, 01:44
I am with you :) and I am not loughin :D
It wouldn't take much to place a dynamo and resistor in there, but to create enough power you'd either need to 'stroke' the lever about 50 times per shot, or have such a big dynamo that it becomes a design flaw or size issue. That's as much as I remember from AS level Physics.
It's a great idea but the image sensor, card reader/writer, etc need a lot more power. You may as well have a solar panel front piece.
Brilliant idea.http://www.freewebdesign.be/smileys/images/action/action-smiley-085.gif It is a kind of pity that it most probably won't happen. http://www.freewebdesign.be/smileys/images/sad/sad-smiley-018.gif
rogue_designer
08-10-2006, 01:58
It wouldn't take much to place a dynamo and resistor in there, but to create enough power you'd either need to 'stroke' the lever about 50 times per shot, or have such a big dynamo that it becomes a design flaw or size issue. That's as much as I remember from AS level Physics.
It's a great idea but the image sensor, card reader/writer, etc need a lot more power. You may as well have a solar panel front piece.
Hmm... solar optimized vulcanite? There's an idea.
I don't think that you would need the dynamo to power the camera entirely - you would still have the primary battery - but have that as a backup - a little extra juice going back into the battery - maybe if the battery was dead you could have a charge mode that you would either use a film rewind crank, or the advance lever - 1 minute or so, for 10 shots (or whatever).
Well obviously if you have to ratchet the lever 10 or 20 times to generate enough juice to take a picture, my idea wouldn't be practical. I'm not an electrical maven, but I do know that a couple of cranks on my flashlight gives me a couple of minutes of fairly bright light. And lightbulbs aren't exactly power misers. I don't know you many watts of power it takes to take a digital picture but I bet it isn't much. Now the LCD screen is another matter, but I could do without in a pinch.
Rex
Neat. An M8 DS. Deca-stroke :D
SteveM(PA)
08-10-2006, 06:33
I think that sounds awesome...would be a great way to take the rugged, durable, mechanical ethos of the MP into the digital rhealm as a second digi Leica M option. I wouldn't want to hang the company fortunes on it, as some people are fine with batteries, but like the MP, it could have devotees.
Who wouldn't want an excuse to stroke their M? If not implemented in the shutter, how about the rewind crank?
Gabriel M.A.
08-10-2006, 06:38
You may as well have a solar panel front piece.
Hey! You know those watches that get wound by just moving your lazy @ss?
Since we're adding/removing features before we actually see the product, how about a locating device? You know those things that beep when you whistle that are used to locate your keys? Very handy when you don't know where your rangefinder is.
Also, how about a bottom-loading card slot?
I know it sounds cool...but let's wait and see if the thing actually works like a dream. I say :confused:
Bob Parsons
08-10-2006, 07:58
:D The generator is already there, it's called the shutter cocking motor. That of course is assuming it's a permanent magnet DC motor and not a stepping one. :D
Bob.
Hey! You know those watches that get wound by just moving your lazy @ss :confused:
Those are called Automatic watches. I am wearing one right now, and have been for the last 50 years. Quess what? No batteries!!!
They tend to be expensive, since they are entirely mechanical. We used to call them "self-winding" watches back in the 50's and everyone had one. The advent of the digital watch almost killed off the Swiss mechanical watch industry but in the last 10 years or so the industry has come back like gangbusters.
Rollex is the best known brand, but for the true fruitcakes (yours truly), the Rollex brand kind of represents the lower end in a funny kind of way. I prefer Jaeger Lecoultre, IWC, and some of the other smaller names. But Rollex is cetainly durable. I wear mine when I am slopping the hogs or digging fenceposts.
Rex
SteveM(PA)
08-10-2006, 22:20
Those are called Automatic watches. I am wearing one right now, and have been for the last 50 years. Quess what? No batteries!!!
They tend to be expensive, since they are entirely mechanical. We used to call them "self-winding" watches back in the 50's and everyone had one. The advent of the digital watch almost killed off the Swiss mechanical watch industry but in the last 10 years or so the industry has come back like gangbusters.
Rollex is the best known brand, but for the true fruitcakes (yours truly), the Rollex brand kind of represents the lower end in a funny kind of way. I prefer Jaeger Lecoultre, IWC, and some of the other smaller names. But Rollex is cetainly durable. I wear mine when I am slopping the hogs or digging fenceposts.
Rex
Anything with a Valjoux Incabloc inside will get you there on time. I don't do watches. They can wait for me. :)
What makes more sense is a 'film rewind lever.' After every 36 shots you would be prompted to wind the 'film rewind lever' for 30 seconds. The repetitive action of winding the lever every 36 shots would re-charge a small auxillary battery and in-turn extend battery life between charges.
Mark Norton
08-10-2006, 23:43
I have a clockwork phone charger, takes an awful lot of winding to make a call on a phone with a flat battery...
I have a clockwork phone charger, takes an awful lot of winding to make a call on a phone with a flat battery...
Mark
This clearly is a fantasy that ain't gonna happen but, it is a aesthetically pleasing fantasy. The notion of having an electronic, digital device free of a battery charger has a cetain elegance to it that is hard to describe to a person that has no appreciation of mechanical things.
But for a fantasy to work, it has to be do-able. My intuition is that the power requirements for the digital capture are quite low. The RD1 already takes care of the shutter requirements. So maybe it is feasible to capture a file with a single stroke of the shutter cocking lever. You must admit that would be cool.
Don't worry I'm not going to start a letter writing campaign to Sohn. They probably think their customer base is crazy enough as it is.
Rex
Mark Norton
08-11-2006, 07:18
What there should be of course is a car charger to charge one or more spare batteries. Not much use if you are out hiking (solar cells strapped to your back-pack?) but handy if you are on the road.
Well, with some luck we'll see small fuel cells on the consumer market soon and perhaps it could even be possible to make fuel cell replacements for common rechargable batteries. Then we'll only need to keep some booze around to keep our cameras going.. ;) :D
/Anders
Bob Ross
08-11-2006, 08:15
What there should be of course is a car charger to charge one or more spare batteries. Not much use if you are out hiking (solar cells strapped to your back-pack?) but handy if you are on the road.
They could always offer an a la carte option to replace the leather with flexible solar cells that have a lizard skin pattern...:D
They could always offer an a la carte option to replace the leather with flexible solar cells that have a lizard skin pattern...:D
Or a small nuclear reactor
Rex
Jon Graham
08-12-2006, 03:23
Some good thoughts here.
All I would want is a battery compartment that takes the rechargeable battery OR 2x AAA cells (a la Richoh GRD). No need to worry is you forget to charge or simply lose charge. You can fit 4 of these in an empty film cannister - enough jiuce for over 100 shots.
Some good thoughts here.
All I would want is a battery compartment that takes the rechargeable battery OR 2x AAA cells (a la Richoh GRD). No need to worry is you forget to charge or simply lose charge. You can fit 4 of these in an empty film cannister - enough jiuce for over 100 shots.
What is this fixation about using AAA batteries that comes up all the time? I understand why one would want a camera that needed no batteries, but once your tethered to batteries, what difference does it really make which kind. I always carry a couple extra, and on a trip I never forget the charger. I mean I don't lose then or anything, so whats the big deal?
Just wondering
Rex
oftheherd
08-13-2006, 03:49
...
Since we're adding/removing features before we actually see the product, how about a locating device? You know those things that beep when you whistle that are used to locate your keys? Very handy when you don't know where your rangefinder is.
...
I know you must have bee in a hurry, and just forgot to mention the legs or a powered locomotion device so it could come when you whistled. Right? :D
oftheherd
08-13-2006, 03:52
Actually, coupled with an optical viewfinder, in emergency situations, the lcd wouldn't be needed. Of course, if it is an lcd in the viewfinder, that is a problem (I don't know which that camera has).
Actually, just for emergency shutter triggering, I think you are on to something.
just give it a siren that goes off after 10 minutes of non-use
Greetings all,
Have read a little of the current (today) ramblings on the upcoming M8. Sadly I am under some legal obligation not to say anything, but the following observations may be of interest based on a recent hands on. A full review and possibly a book is in preparation.
First however, to go back in time.
Someone here (I think) said, maybe a year ago, that whatever Solms brings to market in the form of digital RF - 'it will not be a Leica as we know it.' whoever it was, got that absoloutely right.
I had a very recent opportunity to look at this new device in the company of current film models - a typical trade line-up. As I entered the room, my heart skipped a beat (tells you what a nutter I am.) in the expectation that finally those people responsible for design by committee may have got it right. Nothing about the rebadged Panasonics interested me; getting closer to the line-up, the heart skipping stopped. I was looking not at the M8 but a gleaming black enamel MP. Directly in front of it, the matt black and totally inconspicuous M8. This proved to be a heart stopping moment of despair. What had those people done. No lever, no knobs, nothing; zilch, nada, rien, nothing on the top plate and I knew more or less immediately that if I attempted to pick it up, it would probably slip from my hands. ( did eventually, without dropping it.) The conventional film lever advance on a Leica M is such a natural part of its handling pysche, no conscious thought is ever given to it. Here, we are informed, M8 users will be able to purchase the optional extra hand grip - there will not be too many options untaken. Every user will need it.
2mm thicker sounds not a lot; but you will see (eventually) that it looks like an MP which has had a satchel bomb thrown inside it.
The correspondent with inside information has been misinformed - partly - effective mp will be 10.3.
The really nice thing I like about the Epson RD1/1s is its sRGB colour space which seems to work well with all Leica, Nikkor et al glass. At least it gives the user an opprotunity to select an appropriate 'look' for the motif which is characteristic of the glass and ICC space combination. The coming new look is not to my taste, but then, I didn't approve of it on the R8/9 Digital Modul either - so it's going to be that subjective thing all over again. Either way, neither company have so far managed to replicate, emulate or approach the benchmark Kodachrome look. Still, that again is my subjective preference.
Considering price in the UK, one might expect, after final street discounts, a happy surprise for the body only, a tad more than say for a D2x body.
An interview with a beta user will appear in the BJP in about 3 weeks from now.
salaams
James Brannan
08-27-2006, 08:59
What is this fixation about using AAA batteries that comes up all the time? I understand why one would want a camera that needed no batteries, but once your tethered to batteries, what difference does it really make which kind. I always carry a couple extra, and on a trip I never forget the charger. I mean I don't lose then or anything, so whats the big deal?
Just wondering
Rex
I don't share that fixation but will take a stab at a guess. Some people have a fear of being in a remote location, having a battery die, not having a backup, and then the only local batteries available being AAA. Honestly I use DSLR's and can kill a battery in the course of a day. I just don't think it's a big deal to carry one extra. It's like film. Do you travel without extra film? Even if you have an older RF that uses cells for metering only that seemingly last forever, do you travel to remote locations or important shoots without even one spare?
James Brannan
08-27-2006, 08:59
What makes more sense is a 'film rewind lever.' After every 36 shots you would be prompted to wind the 'film rewind lever' for 30 seconds. The repetitive action of winding the lever every 36 shots would re-charge a small auxillary battery and in-turn extend battery life between charges.
Brilliant. I was looking thru the thread to see if anyone else was going to suggest this.
I think the M8 should have a battery warning feature that always beeps when the battery is good, and stops beeping when the battery is low or has died.. This way, you'll always know when it's safe to go out shooting w/o a backup battery.
Nachkebia
08-27-2006, 11:30
No beeping and fancy joystick`s with glowing buttons please, also no games installed for free time :)
Mark Norton
08-27-2006, 11:54
Ajax, don't know who you are, don't care, but you sound like a luddite to me.
Ajax, don't know who you are, don't care, but you sound like a luddite to me.
I thought we all were :D
My father certainly is, yet he was able to pick up my R-D1 and be amazed how simple it was to use. Would never go near my DSLRs...
Ajax, don't know who you are, don't care, but you sound like a luddite to me.
When it comes to operating any gadget, the Luddite principle should prevail.
If it takes more than 5 minutes for the average person to learn how to operate it, the designer should be shot.
There is no reason for a cell phone to reguire a 100 page instuction book to make a phone call. Nothing more than industrial designer masturbation.
But can it play "doom"?
Rex
When it comes to operating any gadget, the Luddite principle should prevail.
If it takes more than 5 minutes for the average person to learn how to operate it, the designer should be shot.
There is no reason for a cell phone to reguire a 100 page instuction book to make a phone call. Nothing more than industrial designer masturbation.
But can it play "doom"?
Rex
intuitiveness of the gadgetry and the intelligence of the operator goes hand in hand
my ipod can play doom... but it took an hour of messing about with ipodlinux, and my Gen-3 20gb's screen is sooo shot its not worth the effort after all
If it takes more than 5 minutes for the average person to learn how to operate it, the designer should be shot.
Makes the industrial and UI designer position seem kind of unattractive nowadays. :)
Philipp
Whorehay
08-28-2006, 10:57
Those are called Automatic watches. I am wearing one right now, and have been for the last 50 years. Quess what? No batteries!!!
They tend to be expensive...
Rex
actually, i think he is talking about those kinetic watches that charge from your movements (swinging your arm while walking, etc.). seiko has a line of those kinetic watches.
actually, i think he is talking about those kinetic watches that charge from your movements (swinging your arm while walking, etc.). seiko has a line of those kinetic watches.
The "automatic" watch of today is what we used to call "self winding" in the olden days. Basically an automatic or selfwinding watch is a totally mechanical watch that winds itself by the motion of the arm moving an eccentric weight that winds a spring. If you apply this same winding principle to an electronic watch to charge a battery, it is called a "kinetic" watch.
A self charging M8 would be possible thru the wind-on lever but only about 4 people in the world would think it was cool.
I, unfortunetly for my wife, am one of them
Rex
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