View Full Version : New Tri-Elmar 16-18-21 f/4.0 Asph ?
I just read on another forum a user commenting on seeing the following
Tri-Elmar 16-18-21 f/4.0 Asph...... 2500 €
On an Italian dealers price list.
Any comments on this?
Mark Norton
08-09-2006, 11:44
The current Tri-Elmar is €3000 in Germany and €2500 buys you a 50mm f1.4 ASPH. I doubt you'd get a more complex Tri-Elmar for the same price as the 50mm f1.4.
Tri-Elmar 16-18-21 f/4.0 Asph
Leica had stated in a former newsletter that several new (wide) lenses will be released together with the digital M. But 16-18-21...? Considering the crop factor of 1.33x this would be a 21-24-28 fullframe equivalent. IMO this does not make sense to have three focal lengths so close together in a heavy and expensive lens. Just take the middle one as prime and you save money, size and weight.
I would rather expect a 21-26-38 Tri-Elmar (which would be 28-35-50 eq). Or a 16-21-26 (21-28-35 eq.).
Buth with Leica you never know. Photokina will tell...
Didier
Gimme a 35-50-90!
I've always dreamed of a sharp, compact, lightweight and (of course) affordable f2.0/15-25-50-75 Quad-Summicron with creamy bokeh (and zoom finder included)
:D
Didier
J. Borger
08-09-2006, 21:40
Except for the price a tri-elmar sounds a bit too much like a 'zoom' or 'kit lens' to me. It does not correspond with my way of shooting a Rangefinder camera: one focal length at a time, depending on subject and no lensswapping.
Like i said before i do not feel any need for a new lens for the upcoming M8.
The 21 Elmarit translates to a 28 Elmarit and is as wide as i want to go!
As long as we are fantasizing about our dream Tri-Elmar for the 1.3 crop M8, I vote for a 15-21-28 F2.8
Fat chance as at f2.8 it would be huge (for a rangefinder) and expensive. However, since it would really be wider than most full frame people would need, perhaps Leica could design a crop factor lens thus saving weight, size and cost. I know that would piss off the full frame people but I think the 1.3 sensor is actually a good size for the compact rangefinder form factor. I agree full full frame is nice but more suited for DSLR's were the bulk is unavoidable.
I realize that Leica would be stirring up a hornets nest if they ever released a lens that wasnt full frame compatible. But the DSLR guys are used to this so why not our beloved Leica?
Rex
I realize that Leica would be stirring up a hornets nest if they ever released a lens that wasnt full frame compatible.
True. And as far as I remember, Leica had officially announced the new lenses will be film- (eg. fullframe-) compatible. Maybe Leica keeps the new lenses fullframe-compatible because they consider the crop-factored M8 just as inbetween model.
Btw, f2.8 for a fullframe tri-whatever lens would result in a very fat piece of glass.
Didier
Maybe Leica keeps the new lenses fullframe-compatible because they consider the crop-factored M8 just as inbetween model....
Didier
You may be right about the 1.3 crop factor being an in between model. On the other hand there is something to be said for a 1.3 sensor being the optimal size for the rangefinder format. After all 10Megs is enough for rangefinder type photography. High ISO numbers and better dynamic range are more important to me . All in a compact body/lens format.
My only gripe with the old Tri-Elmar was its speed. If dedicating a lens to a reduced format can make it possible to design some F2.8's, I'm all for it. a 16-21-28 F2.8 would really hit the spot and save a lot of lens changing. It would actually be better than a zoom because the discrete nature of the focal lengths would force people to compose and frame with their feet insteed of zooming the composition and framing as many people do.
Rex
It may be , in fact it is very probable, that a 16-21-28 f 2.8 would be so large that it obstructs the viewfinder. That is the reason that the current Tri-Elmar is 4.0. That and the fact that the difficulty of correction of such a lens in a compact mount increases exponentially with each stop to the point of impossibility.
If we look at the Digilux2 2.0-2.4 28-90 equivalent lens, which is of a sensational quality, that lens was only possible because of the small sensor size and even then it is a pretty bulky lens, too thick for a M-camera. For a 35 mm camera or even a 27 mm camera like the M8 it would be several magnitudes larger,in size at least like Canon's 17-40L.
Maybe Leica keeps the new lenses fullframe-compatible because they consider the crop-factored M8 just as inbetween model
Indeed they do, in the newest LFI they said they are keeping open the possibility of offering a 35 mm sensor model as and when the technology becomes available. However, I would not be surprised if both sensor sizes were offered side by side in that case. Both have their advantages and uses.
While you are right that size of a fast Tri-Elmar would be a big factor in its practicallity, by using a reduced sensor size, a lot of the problems are mitigated. I could see a lens the size of my Canon 10-22 zoom being the maximum size I would feel comfortable with on a rangefinder. I think that would be possible because of the more compact nature of non-retrofocus lenses. Also a less than two to one ratio (16-21-28) would make a compact design easier. Remember the Digilux has over a 3X zoom ratio and a f2.0 apeture at its greatest.
As for the lens blocking the viewfinder, an accessory findor would be mandatory anyway. I grant that you would have to see the focus patch but focusing would be rather easy with the DOF's involved.
Rex
Let's wait until the Photokina to see what the Heinzelmännchen in Solms come up with. I'm going on Wednesday.:)
I just read on another forum a user commenting on seeing the following
Tri-Elmar 16-18-21 f/4.0 Asph...... 2500 €
On an Italian dealers price list.
Any comments on this?
I'm new to this... Which other forums are there (talking about this)...
Thanks Jim
but it seems to me that just like most advanced SLR users want at least a 28mm wide, that M8 users are going to want a 24mm, so someone should be making 18's and wider for this thing.
I just read on another forum a user commenting on seeing the following
Tri-Elmar 16-18-21 f/4.0 Asph...... 2500 €
On an Italian dealers price list.
Any comments on this?
Leica had stated in a former newsletter that several new (wide) lenses will be released together with the digital M. But 16-18-21...? Considering the crop factor of 1.33x this would be a 21-24-28 fullframe equivalent. IMO this does not make sense to have three focal lengths so close together in a heavy and expensive lens. Just take the middle one as prime and you save money, size and weight.
I would rather expect a 21-26-38 Tri-Elmar (which would be 28-35-50 eq). Or a 16-21-26 (21-28-35 eq.).
Buth with Leica you never know. Photokina will tell...
Didier
The price in the rumour would fit in with the remark in the same article that the lenses would be priced lower than the current ones. I've seen this rumour before. I think that such a complex mount would be very hard to build at that price.On the other hand, it might make Leica-sense to build such a companion to the current Tri- Elmar, after all, the spacing 28-35-50 is of similar magnitude. On the other hand, the current Tri-Elmar is the ideal standard zoom for the M8, just add a 24 and 90/2.8 or 4.0 and the set has all the framelines, as they seem to be, covered. We'll just have to wait, in my case until Sept 26, to see for ourselves...
Nachkebia
08-24-2006, 00:06
f/4 with crop factor, you wont be able to blur anything :)
It is tough to blur anything with superwides anyway.
Nachkebia
08-24-2006, 00:30
Depends were you focus :)
It is tough to blur anything with superwides anyway.
Just move the camera..:D. BTW,it is possible to add selective out of focus in Photoshop....
Nachkebia
08-24-2006, 00:46
jaapv : Oh god pleas no! not you again wit photoshop :D :D I am designer with 7 years experiance, working with photoshop from age 15, you can never ever simulate DOF so I wont lought at it :D
Read the Scott Kelby book Down and Dirty Tricks or the Elements 4 book by the same author. You will be surprised.....Not that I ever used this particular trick as I don't really like the result, but it does look like DOF....
Nachkebia
08-24-2006, 00:57
I know how to do it, also I look like my mother but I am not my mother :D
btw do you shoot birds? :D :D
Buckshot :D Canon 10D, 100-400L and 1.4 converter. Plan to do it in the future with Leica M8, visoflex, Noflexar and TEX extender (if I can find that item...)
Nachkebia
08-24-2006, 01:07
Oh, that explains everything!!!! :D :D
Because of you there will be no color film in the future! because you can`t see difference, can not feel it! and you think you can do everything in photoshop!! :D bird shooter! :D
Whoa there... I shoot 50 % film. Just because I don't want to be a dinosaur doesn't turn me into James Bonds Q! If I calculate your previous post, you're 22 years of age. That means in the end you'll even forget there ever was film , whilst I have fond memories of the colloid plates I took in the Boer war! :D
Nachkebia
08-24-2006, 01:15
Just kidding but remember every joke has little truth in, Just be aware, keep distance from me :D :D :D
Ken Ford
08-24-2006, 05:23
My dream lens: a 35-75 Duo-Summicron!
Mark Norton
08-24-2006, 09:55
I think Ken you need to keep on dreaming. It's not going to happen...
I would rather expect a 21-24-35 Tri-Elmar (which would be 28-35-50 eq).
That is more reasonable.
16mm is too wide for a Tri-Elmar. It would be huge in size !!
out of curiosity: how do you operate a Tri Elmar? is it necessary to unmount it before you can change it's focal length? as far as I know it isn't a real zoom lens, is it?
Ken Ford
08-24-2006, 17:08
I think Ken you need to keep on dreaming. It's not going to happen...
That's why it's a dream!
Mark Norton
08-24-2006, 17:51
out of curiosity: how do you operate a Tri Elmar? is it necessary to unmount it before you can change it's focal length? as far as I know it isn't a real zoom lens, is it?
There's a third ring in between the aperture ring at the front and focussing ring at the back with 3 click-stop positions. It's a bit like a zoom but only those three positions are usable. The three positions are not 28-35-50 as you might expect but 35-50-28.
Mark Norton
08-24-2006, 18:08
We believe the M8 will use the viewfinder frame lug on the bayonet ring to determine which focal length is in use - the lens code will say "Tri-Elmar" and the bayonet lug position will say 28-50-35. It can do this because each of the three possible positions is used by these three focal lengths.
I think it's unlikely that any new dual- or tri- lens would include focal lengths which selected the same frame set because the camera would not then be able to determine the focal length in use. At the wide end, that excludes then mixing 21 with 28 and 24 with 35 so something like 21-24-28, 21-24-35 would not work.
There's a third ring in between the aperture ring at the front and focussing ring at the back with 3 click-stop positions. It's a bit like a zoom but only those three positions are usable. The three positions are not 28-35-50 as you might expect but 35-50-28.
thanks, quite interesting solution :)
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