Kwanon D Prototype Camera

[Rangefinder Man]

Hello All
Just posted on eBay is this early Kwanon D prototype.

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190010491258&fromMakeTrack=true

2376: Kwanon Prototype Camera, numbered 2 on inside of
Item number: 190010491258

What I have heard that is possibly a early version than what Canon have in their museum.

[jlw]

Wow, you're not gonna see one of THOSE come up very often! I'm glad it has so many unique parts, such as the front-mounted wind knob and the pop-up finder, just to reduce the chances of an ingenious forgery.

What would be especially interesting would be to know how this prototype camera made its way from prewar Japan to a real estate agent in the Bronx! There's probably quite an untold story there. Also, I wonder how long it slept in a drawer before somebody said, "I wonder if Dad's old cameras are worth anything..."

[ErnestoJL]

I´m thinking about how much would pay Canon inc. for that camera (provided this is the real thing)...

Ernesto

[Sonnar2]

Well, this gonna be veeery expensive...! (CANON will buy it themself when proud of their history)

cheers Frank

[jlw]

[QUOTE=Sonnar2]Well, this gonna be veeery expensive...! (CANON will buy it themself when proud of their history)

They've already got one!

[harry01562]

AFAIK, Canon does not have this prototype. They have the later type, in chrome, as illustrated in the Museum. There were supposedly 10 of these, basically handmade, of which one was sold by a retail dealer.
The camera has been carefully vetted by Peter Dechert, who believes it is at least 80% original. On a prototype such as this, it's very difficult to say what is original. Note that there is also a Nikon 1, not as spectacular, but a rare bird, as well.
I live fairly close to the auction, but am scheduled to be away that weekend. I'm totally incapable of bidding, but it would probably be entertaining to be there for the sale. Looking over the catalog, it's a very nice sale, with a wide range of collectibles and many very rare pieces.
I'd bet Canon will be bidding, but may be passed by a very well-heeled collector. He/she would have a nice shelf warmer, and be lighter by at least $25,000, at a guess.
My collecting consisted of printing out the pages from the website, as the printed catalog costs $29.... Skinner is not bashful.

Harry

[Sonnar2]

I guess this prototype will be sold for a much higher price than estimated... If somebody gave me 45k I wouldn't bet to get it.

I wasn't sure that this KWANON exists at all, as a functional camera, not just a sketch or a wodden dummy...

Anybody have asked for more pictures of it??

Frank

[Sonnar2]

Two known sketches of the Kwanon-D from Peter Dechert's book (never seen a photography):

http://www.taunusreiter.de/Cameras/Kwanon_D_01.jpg

http://www.taunusreiter.de/Cameras/Kwanon_D_02.jpg

Original or not ?

[Sonnar2]

Upon request, new images attached to auction description. From this, IMHO it looks so close to an original as it can be....

cheers, Frank

[John Shriver]

It sure looks very handmade. The patina is too good to fake.

However, I just have to laugh at the wind knob on the front. Looks like something out of a cubist nightmare. I can't imagine it's anything short of completely awkward to use there.

I presume the lens mount is a J-mount (39mm at 1mm pitch), rather than Leica mount (39mm at 26 turns per inch).

[John Shriver]

Oh, interesting. It's arranged for magazine to magazine film handling -- note the two knobs on the baseplace.

Shades of Contax. I suppose that also has something to do with the more angular look that the Canon RF's always had compared to Leica.

[jlw]

Oh, interesting. It's arranged for magazine to magazine film handling -- note the two knobs on the baseplace.

Yup. According to speculation in Dechert's book, Yoshida started working on the prototypes before Kodak introduced its standardized 135 magazine (which made its debut along with the Retina I camera.) When news of the 135 magazine reached Japan, the prototypes were modified to accomodate it. Among other things, this gives a hint of the very long gestation period of the Kwanon!

I'm more fascinated than ever to know how this creation wound up in the Bronx! I hope the eventual purchaser has the resources and interest to research (and publish) its entire history, not just slap it in a vault. It's more than just a rare old camera -- it's an artifact that encapsulates an entire turbulent period of history, and that period's abruptly changing relations between Japan and the United States.

[Sonnar2]

If this is an original (what it looks like - any expertise isn't mentioned in the decription) I hope CANON will buy it...

Dechert wrote about this camera: "After World War 2 a very small photo of a similar camera appeared in a Japanese magazine article on Canon camera development; upon enlargement an indistinct blob at the rewind end of this camera, Kwanon-D, was interpreted by many as a rewind knob which it may well be - it is, when this camera is the original - If so, it seems likely to have been added at some time after original assembly. Kwanon-D might indeed well be the same camera as Kwanon-C (...) When he left Seiki Kogaku Yoshida may have taken with him both Kwanon-X and Kwanon-D or C; since he was friendly with Hideo Hokura, owner of the Shimbido shop, it would not be surprising for him to dispose of the Kwanons through this outlet."

It's quite sensational that this was made as a truely functional camera, not just a wodden dummy, like also speculated. If this is No.2, No.1 (the Kwanon-C?) probably was operational as well. So maybe Mr. Yoshida's pioneer work merits more reverence than he actually gets...

It'a amazing that the camera hasn't any Kwanon logo, or writing yet (although no logo was to seen at the camera in the advertise). A stupid fake would have a logo for sure.

Also the base plate with two opening keys very much looks like what Dechert wrote about "typical Kwanon". The picture show that Kwanon's lens mount was pretty much "Leica II" as opposed to the later Hansa-Canon with the Contax style mount. As for the shutter crate, a Hansa-expert will tell. The outer form very much looks like the ancestor of "early CANON RF"...

If this is a fake, it is a masterpiece...

cheers Frank

[John Shriver]

I wonder how one zeroes the film counter. It doesn't have the two bumps that typical "Leica" cameras have.

As for why it wasn't sold before 1945, E. Leitz would have sued their butts off! As the description notes, it obviously violates Leitz's screw-mount patent. Moving the finder avoided one of the viewfinder patents.

[Sonnar2]

Oh, interesting. It's arranged for magazine to magazine film handling -- note the two knobs on the baseplace.

I noticed that second knob as well. How does this procedure work??

[John Shriver]

Here's an interesting development:

http://offer.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=190010491258

Two of the via eBay bids were withdrawn. BUT, they include the AMOUNT of the withdrawn bid. (Live eBay is strange!)

hd-leica withdrew a $32,500 bid.

don.fiasco withdrew a $42,500 bid.

Perhaps the bids were canceled when Skinner checked their credit ratings?

Or maybe they went to inspect it in person, and changed their mind?

This is going to be an exciting lot. Unfortunately, while I live in the area, I really can't make it to the auction.

[jlw]

Maybe their significant others found out...?

[airds]

Maybe they noticed the high Buyer Premium - for USD 0 to 80000 is +22.5% ?

[John Shriver]

Well, it's over. $120,000, from a floor bidder. The online bidders were just noise at the bottom, the floor bidding started at $26,000.

At least for that much, you get a discount on the comission -- only 15%. Just another $18,000.

The Nikon I was just pedestrian at $12,000.

[John Shriver]

Oh, yeah, if you don't have it shipped out of state, or don't have a Massachusetts dealer's exemption, there's also 5% sales tax. Our fine state thanks the buyer.

If I was paying that much, I'd consider paying the tax to take it with me! Although I might want some protection...

[jlw]

Not too surprising that a floor bidder was the winner. If I were in the category of people who could spend that amount for a collectible camera, I'd certainly have wanted to fly in on my private jet -- or, more likely, hire an expert to look it over and conduct the bidding based on my telephoned instructions.

I hope we get to find out where it has gone and what plans the new owner has for it. If its entire history could be determined, I suspect this one camera would be a worthy subject for a book all by itself.

[harry01562]

I was away on family business today, and checked a few minutes ago to see the results of the auction. I wasn't surprised to see it was sold to a floor bidder, for the reasons previously mentioned. I was very surprised, however, by the final total, as it exceeded anything I expected. I'm surmising there were 2 interested bidders, with the financial resources to be in the hunt. There was a starting bid of 26000, and almost immediate raises until 110000 was reached. There is a short gap, and the winning bid at the 1 increment ($10,000 at this level) was recorded.
Hopefully, the winner was Canon, as the camera will find a suitable home there. I normally prefer things to remain with individual collectors, but this is a unique case, deserving of a museum, IMHO.
I haven't bothered to figure what the additional fees would be, as they are in excess of my resources... without the extra 120 big ones. Skinner must be thrilled. This is going to give rare cameras an extra shot of publicity, and they will be prominent in the mention. It also gives Canon some bragging rights over their rivals. I'm certain Peter K. will be thrilled by the results, and it may even sell a few dozen more books :angel: And that's a good thing for all of us that enjoy reading about our treasures.
Now I am sorry I didn't make a trip into Skinner to check out the camera in person. Seeing the valuation, I'm not certain I would have been allowed to handle it!! I have added the appropriate printed pages to the notebooks, which is always fun.. even when I get funny looks from the wife. I hope there aren't too many disapointed readers here on the forum.

Harry

[NIKON KIU]

Greetings,
There is great debate out there whether this thing is Legit, apparently some experts don't think so.....Eastern Europe/FSU is a scary place when it comes to camera collecting.
Kiu

[Sonnar2]

out there? Where?

I thinks the floor bidder had the chance to get hands on, or bring his own experts, right? Who else would spend a lot of money for it?

This beeing said, I wondered too (and I said that in an early state of the auction) that this camera missed an expertise. Peter Dechert had just seen the pictures! At the first two days of the auction it was just *one* picture... I asked for an expertise and the answer was kind of... discontenting. (maybe just because I'm not a well known rich collector)

But it can be legit nonetheless..!

BTW Kiu, if its ugly (as you wrote in Nikonhs) or not, legit or not: arguments can be made that the Kwanon is the mother of your beloved Nikons as well... think about it. :D

[airds]

Greetings,
There is great debate out there whether this thing is Legit, apparently some experts don't think soKiu


Can you elaborate for us please?

[VinceC]

I think Kwanons are Kwool!

[Sonnar2]

Cameras with front-driven gear trains are MEGA cool :p

[Sonnar2]

Checked again Nikonhs.org forum, the Kwanon-D thread is deleted !

Maybe because speculations of these clever guys turned out to be false?

Anyway, completing it for the archives:
http://www.taunusreiter.de/Cameras/Kwanon_RF.html

Cheers Frank

[NIKON KIU]

What happened to this camera?

Peter???

Kiu

[Sonnar2]

Anyone know the current owner?

[NIKON KIU]

Anyone know the current owner?

Hush....

Kiu

[NIKON KIU]

Just to make it more interesting, here is a couple of pictures I have been saving on my Hard-Drive ;)

http://images.yuku.com/image/pjpeg/d9415e8991730e147b3624a493421d875014685.jpg

:cool: Cool, ain't it? The mother of all Japenese 35mm cameras :)

http://images.yuku.com/image/pjpeg/95d25ba8649247e704116c0be1ade1becaba058.jpg

Kiu

[pdek]

How did this thread suddenly appear on my forum at this late date? I've said all I have to say about the Kwanon prototype #2 elsewhere in my forum some time ago. It's real.
Peter Dechert
**
I deleted it because I had accidentally revealed information meant only for me.