View Full Version : I would love it if...
The M8 stayed as close to the previous analog Ms as possible in terms of the design. I know they won't be doing this, but it would be great if they kept the advance lever for cocking the shutter. Also, it would be neat if they continued to use removable base plates, but instead of loading your film, this is where the memory card slot, battery, and other plugs go. I'd also like to see them keep the flip up back door to act as an LCD cover, but change it so that you don't need to remove the base plate to open it.
What do you guys think? I know they won't do any of that stuff, and I'm not a Leica "purist" by any means, but I think it would be really neat if they kept some of these Leica "traits" with the M8.
They WON"T BE DOING THIS?
I hope they don't do something foolish like change the design. That would be suicide.
They WON"T BE DOING THIS?
I hope they don't do something foolish like change the design. That would be suicide.
Well, I'm almost positive I read that there will not be a shutter advance lever. Also, there are probably better ways to incorporate the battery/memory card slots than having a completely removeable base plate like the film Ms. I don't think they're going to change the overall design, but I'm sure some little things will be lost/changed.
Peter Klein
06-15-2006, 12:27
At the LHSA convention last October, Stephan Daniel of Leica told us that the digital M would look pretty much like a traditional M, but a little thicker to accomodate the LCD. As to the details of doors, who knows?
--Peter
humanized_form
06-15-2006, 12:57
i hope the info in the viewfinder display is like the M7. i would like it to just flash the ISO when you turn on the camera and then display the shutter speeds.
i really don't want the viewfinder cluttered up with extra info about white balance presets or whatever. keep it simple.
a matter of fact i hope they can implement the aperture priority mode similar to how it is on the M7, with just a half-press of the shutter for exposure lock.
i really just want a digital version of the M7. that camera is nearly perfect.
What would the flip-up back door do? On the analog Ms, the door only opens when the bottom plate is out. So you want a door that flips up to reveal the LCD but pokes you in the face when you use it?
The removable bottom plate suits the slower pace of shooting with film, but not so in the fast instant-feedback world of digital.
Get rid of tha bottom plate!
Bob Ross
06-15-2006, 13:26
i hope the info in the viewfinder display is like the M7. i would like it to just flash the ISO when you turn on the camera and then display the shutter speeds.
i really don't want the viewfinder cluttered up with extra info about white balance presets or whatever. keep it simple.
a matter of fact i hope they can implement the aperture priority mode similar to how it is on the M7, with just a half-press of the shutter for exposure lock.
i really just want a digital version of the M7. that camera is nearly perfect.
The M7 is about as refined as to M form as I like. I wouldn't be surprised if the put the shutter release and shutter speed dial together as on the M5 and the R bodies. Two refinements that would be nice would be a diopter adjustment on the viewfinder and a centered tripod mount, though either of those would surprise me.
i hope it'd still work without battery like my M6 :p
Mark Norton
06-15-2006, 14:52
One thing that's always overlooked is that there are some essential items of information you need when shooting digital which you don't need with film:
- Battery state
- ISO
- White Balance
- Quality/Image Size
- Memory Capacity
How this will be displayed is unknown; a secondary LCD panel on the back or top of the camera? Dials like the R-D1?
humanized_form
06-15-2006, 15:28
i think it would be neat to have an ISO dial on top of the camera, maybe located around where the current film rewind is. this could also have an adjustment dial for ev comepnsation.
perhaps the biggest drag of the M7 for me is the rear dials for ISO and ev compensation. requires two hands to manually adjust ISO.
and if they could have a small lcd located where the current film counter area is it could indicate the remaining images available for the file format being, and have icons for white balance setting and remaining battery life, that would be great.
Todd.Hanz
06-15-2006, 15:37
I hope it has a dial for "film replication", with choices like Tri-X, Acros, Tech Pan, etc... now that would be a good trick. :)
Todd
Jason Sprenger
06-15-2006, 15:40
Just a pipe dream but...
An M7 rewind style crank used to charge up the battery for say... the next 36 exposures. That and an advance lever to cock the shutter like the R-D1 would be exceedingly cool.
I'd take either of those over a chimping screen.
Lock image quality on maximum the chip can handle. Afterall, why would a Leica M even offer lower resolutions.
Leave white balance to post processing. I can snap an extra shot at a white wall, piece of paper or a hankerchief if I'm dubious.
Though I'll need an exposure counter on the top right hand side, preferably a numbered dial but will settle for LCD, if I have to.
Gabriel M.A.
06-15-2006, 15:40
It should leap high buildings, run faster than an in-a-vacuum-bullet, be decisive in all its moments, and be a togetherer, not a divider.
Or perhaps I'll wait until it comes out to find out :p
Bob Ross
06-15-2006, 16:24
One thing that's always overlooked is that there are some essential items of information you need when shooting digital which you don't need with film:
- Battery state
- ISO
- White Balance
- Quality/Image Size
- Memory Capacity
How this will be displayed is unknown; a secondary LCD panel on the back or top of the camera? Dials like the R-D1?
There seems to be two approaches to this in current DSLRs, the full LCD display and the mono LCD panel. I have cameras with both and I hope the go for the mono LCD panel on the top deck. Using the full LCD display makes the camera like a neon advertisement, especially in low light. An easy custom WB and EV adjust hopefully come out of beta testing and maybe the rewind knob will be the comand dial. It will be the back of the camera that changes the most.
John Camp
06-15-2006, 16:52
I'm a chimper, so I hope they have a good LCD screen.
I would also like to see ISO displayed both on top and through the viewfinder. Unlike with film, ISO on a digital becomes another shot-by-shot elective, like shutter speed and aperture. (So that if you need a certain aperture, and you're getting pushed on the low end for shutter speed, for example, you can opt for a higher ISO and perhaps a bit more noise.) So that reading and control should be handy, and not buried somewhere in a menu.
As far as picture quality goes, I'd be happy with, say, 2 jpg settings and Raw. Actually, I'd be happy with Raw-only, but that might be a hard sell, and I hope it sells well.
The R-D1 does all of this stuff pretty well. I hope the Leica people took a long look at it.
JC
atelier7
06-15-2006, 17:21
they sold it for no more than an amateur dslr!
An M7 rewind style crank used to charge up the battery for say... the next 36 exposures. That and an advance lever to cock the shutter like the R-D1 would be exceedingly cool.
Leave white balance to post processing. I can snap an extra shot at a white wall, piece of paper or a hankerchief if I'm dubious.
36 exposures? why get stuck in the old way of thinking?
I'd rather have the camera do an approximate white balance so I can chimp meaningfully on site. And if I shoot raw, all white balance is applied in post anyways.
One thing that's always overlooked is that there are some essential items of information you need when shooting digital which you don't need with film:
- Battery state
- ISO
- White Balance
- Quality/Image Size
- Memory Capacity
How this will be displayed is unknown; a secondary LCD panel on the back or top of the camera? Dials like the R-D1?
I vote for DIALS.! I think the dials are the most intuitive feature of any digital camera in existence. I absolutely love them, especially the "frame" counter. Because it is a logrithmic display, you get the essential information at a glance i.e. I have a lot of pictures left vs I'm down to the last dozen. The battery "gas" gauge is also very effective. The white balance & raw-jpeg needle is nice but I don't really care how they are implemented.
Unfortunately, the chance of Leica using stepper motor gauges is remote. We were very lucky to see them in the Epson and only because of Epson's long history in manufacturing watches. Remember Epson is actually Seiko/Epson, the watch people. Even with probably the best opportunity to manufacture watch-like gauges, it has been reported that it cost Seiko $600 to implement this truly elegant design. I don't think we will ever see anything like it again.
I'm starting to get all misty-eyed about my little R-D1. God protect her from harm.
Rex
Andrew McK
06-15-2006, 20:55
I thought about the baseplate thingy too.
In some respects a digital M7 would be cool. If it had the exact same everything and the only difference was the lack of film and a memory card slot and a battery tucked away somewhere.
I'm thinking it may have a more modern design instead.
You could get bogged down in throwing features at it or you go make it hardcore and stripped down. Trouble is if you do that folk will complain that it's a $4000 camera with less features than a $400 one. Leica badge on it or not.
J. Borger
06-15-2006, 21:00
I really hope there is NO advance lever to cock the shutter.
I still miss a lot of decisive moments after using the R-D1 for 1,5 years as my only camera because i forgot to do this and the camera was not ready.
What i really hope for is a fulll black and white mode in raw similar and with the same quality as the R-D1.
Gauges for me too. I simply love them on my R-D1. As Rex said, they're intuitive to read, easily read at a glance, and they rev up like the dials in an AC Cobra. All you'd need is the rev'ing noise of the engine in the background to imagine you'r at Le Mans. :)
I really hope there is NO advance lever to cock the shutter.
I still miss a lot of decisive moments after using the R-D1 for 1,5 years as my only camera because i forgot to do this and the camera was not ready.
Did this happen to you when you were still shooting film? If so, it's a thing you'll have learn to live with. If not, however, I think you've set your mind into digital mode. Yes, I too sometimes forget to cock the shutter but I also sometimes forgot to advance the film before I started using the R-D1. I'm just trying to make it a habit to always advance the lever right after taking a shot, whether with the R-D1 or a film camera.
I got use to the advance lever but it is kind of dumb. But what if the advance lever would charge a little capacitor, eliminating the need for batteries?
Rex
Whoops I forgot pathological chimpers like myself. That is unless I was willing to advance the lever 20 times between shots!
Rex
Mark Norton
06-15-2006, 21:13
There seems to be two approaches to this in current DSLRs, the full LCD display and the mono LCD panel. I have cameras with both and I hope the go for the mono LCD panel on the top deck. Using the full LCD display makes the camera like a neon advertisement, especially in low light. An easy custom WB and EV adjust hopefully come out of beta testing and maybe the rewind knob will be the comand dial. It will be the back of the camera that changes the most.
I think battery life is going to be, if not an issue, then at least something to keep in mind while working with this camera. The Epson R-D1 is bigger than we expect the M8 to be and there's only space in it for a single Li-Ion battery, which provides just 1/4 of the battery capacity of the Nikon D2x.
That's why I'm surprised they are using a motorised shutter and I can't imagine you will need to use the LCD to check key parameters which I agree can be obtrusive in low light conditions.
An (optionally backlit) LCD panel makes sense, I'd quite like to see it projected into the viewfinder when you press a button on the camera.
Battery life will be an issue because there will only be room for one Lithium Ion battery, like the R-D1. However, modern electromagnet shutters are not energy hogs. Look at the R3a that uses one piddly little button thingy that lasts for months.
LCD screens are the culpert. I would hope that the chimping screen be keep fairly simple. Stepper motor gauges are also very energy efficient. Unfortunately, the "correct" feature set didn't seem to help Epson much.
Rex
Mark Norton
06-15-2006, 23:19
Alright, it is going to be an issue. Battery life on the R-D1 is already marginal and by comparison, the M8 will have a motor wound shutter, a larger LCD screen, higher resolution implying more memory and higher clock speeds and the hope is it will be smaller than an RD-1, none of which work in favour of long battery life.
It would good if Leica were thinking about a battery pack which could attach to the bottom of the camera like a Leicavit and provide extra power.
One report said they were working on improving battery life, which is already better than the DMR but there's only so much they can do.
Bob Ross
06-16-2006, 11:13
One area they might surprise me with is to go with an OLED display for lower power consumption. Some of the MF backs use them. If they have to go with a smaller battery, they may have looked at OLEDs really closely.
We'll know there is a problem when they pack two batteries in the box....:-)
I know it's too much to hope for but my blue dream is for the M8 to run on NiMH AA batts, like the Fujis. How cool would that be? Cheap, never need to worry about replacements if a batt or the charger goes bad far from a Leica dealer or if Leica goes bankrupt, and in a pinch you could always get a limited # of shots from Lithium or even Alkaline AA. Maybe there will be an accessory battery holder like the Dslrs have, for using AA. that's about the size of the current Leicavit?
zanydave
06-16-2006, 11:42
I think we is gonna be sooooooooooooooo dissapointed.
But please don't start, it's only my opinion. I use Leica M & R & also digital so I have nothing against film or digital, each one is better than the other for different purposes. I think they will exist together for a long time to come but digital cameras are becoming like software. Why oh why do we keep having to accept a product that needs to be fixed or updated?
Dave.
Bob Ross
06-16-2006, 17:38
I think we is gonna be sooooooooooooooo dissapointed.
But please don't start, it's only my opinion. I use Leica M & R & also digital so I have nothing against film or digital, each one is better than the other for different purposes. I think they will exist together for a long time to come but digital cameras are becoming like software. Why oh why do we keep having to accept a product that needs to be fixed or updated?
Dave.
Who is "we"? Do you have a roll of Kodachrome 25 in your Pocket?.....LOL
So, you are expecting your expectations not to be fulfilled ;) My expectations are that Leica's QC and the extensive field testing will find all the things that might need to be fixed, before I do. As for "updating", I look at it as product evolution and proof that the mfr. is still involved in making sure the product meets my needs, or someone elses. You can always stop accepting. It is a sure way to reduce the agony of dissapointment :D
zanydave
06-17-2006, 06:44
"We" Is me & the wife but why you needed to know that I'm not sure! :confused:
"Leica's QC and the extensive field testing will find all the things that might need to be fixed, before I do".... Have you not heard of the DMR? :eek:
ffttklackdedeng
06-17-2006, 08:20
Even though this might sound strange to anyone used to a digital camera, I would love it if it would replace the film with a digital sensor and that's it! No lcd screen at all, iso setting as usual, over- / underexposure as two symbols in the finder, a 'reverse' frame counter for the last 40 (raw + jpg) shots. O.k, some sort of an indication when the power goes down. As simple as that would be wonderful - just no more film cartridge handling and scanning.
Regards, Robert
Bob Ross
06-17-2006, 09:40
"We" Is me & the wife but why you needed to know that I'm not sure! :confused:
"Leica's QC and the extensive field testing will find all the things that might need to be fixed, before I do".... Have you not heard of the DMR? :eek:
I was worried that your "we" might be meant to include me.... :D My digital venture capital coordinator has asked me not to mention her in the forums....oops..LOL
Lets hope the lessons that Leica learned on the DMR will be of some help with the M8. I think the M8 being an integrated digital unit, means fewer compromises.
So, where do you think your diapponitment will first show up? Do you think there is a week link in the M8 concept or its execution?
[QUOTE=J. Borger]I really hope there is NO advance lever to cock the shutter.
I still miss a lot of decisive moments after using the R-D1 for 1,5 years as my only camera because i forgot to do this and the camera was not ready.
Agree totally. Having a shutter wind lever on a digital camera is one of the silliest things I have ever seen.
Agree totally. Having a shutter wind lever on a digital camera is one of the silliest things I have ever seen.
You obviously haven't used the R-D1. IMO the lever adds to the "rf" experience of this camera.
Mark Norton
06-21-2006, 04:22
I agree, the lever is fine. The motor might add convenience but will add noise and increase power consumption. It's second nature to cock the shutter and good to be able to do it when you want. not immediately after the shuter has fired.
It will be interesting to see how quiet Leica have managed to make the M8. Metal shutter, motor wind, I cannot see it being quieter than the M7.
The R-D1 is noisier than I would like and the battery life is not as good as I would like. Plenty of scope for the M8 to improve on that.
It will be interesting to see how quiet Leica have managed to make the M8. Metal shutter, motor wind, I cannot see it being quieter than the M7.
.
Actually, if Leica would've made an interlock switch and perhaps a "dark slide" a la Mamiya 6/7 they could have used an electronic "shutter", virtually silent, and made the option of real-time viewing on the LCD. But perhaps they had a stash of paid-for R8/9 shutters they had to use up :D
Mark Norton
06-21-2006, 07:12
Well, look at the Panasonic L1 which allows you to choose between "viewfinder" mode and "preview" mode. If you're in viewfinder mode, it's dim because the image goes off a hlef silvered mirror. If you're in preview mode, it has to switch to viewfinder mode to do autofocus and then back, which can take 5 seconds. Hugely compromised IMHO.
Gauges for me too. I simply love them on my R-D1. As Rex said, they're intuitive to read, easily read at a glance, and they rev up like the dials in an AC Cobra. All you'd need is the rev'ing noise of the engine in the background to imagine you'r at Le Mans. :)
oh great lets introduce more things that will break. I thought you ppl wanted your Leicas to become timeless..
Well, look at the Panasonic L1 which allows you to choose between "viewfinder" mode and "preview" mode. If you're in viewfinder mode, it's dim because the image goes off a hlef silvered mirror. If you're in preview mode, it has to switch to viewfinder mode to do autofocus and then back, which can take 5 seconds. Hugely compromised IMHO.
According to the pre-pro on dpreview, the Oly E300 (same sensor, shutter and mirror box and lens mount) doesn't suffer from that problem. I wonder if there will be a Leica-badged version of this camera, or if Leica is afraid it might hurt sales of the M8 and DMR+R9.
Mark Norton
06-21-2006, 08:54
I think it's more there's no autofocus at all on the Olympus version when in preview mode. If the autofocus sensor can't see anything, it's not going to be able to focus.
I don't think for one minute that this camera is going to harm either the R9/DMR or the M8. The complete camera is half the price of a DMR alone or an M8 body and $2000 buys you a single 35mm Summicron-M ASPH.
They should introduce a SLR mode for the M8... Voila! best of both words..
Bob Ross
06-21-2006, 14:02
Actually, if Leica would've made an interlock switch and perhaps a "dark slide" a la Mamiya 6/7 they could have used an electronic "shutter", virtually silent, and made the option of real-time viewing on the LCD. But perhaps they had a stash of paid-for R8/9 shutters they had to use up :D
If they are using the Kodak KAF FFT sensor then live view is not an option. The extra gear they would need to run live view might cause body bloat, too.... :(
Bob Ross
06-21-2006, 14:05
They should introduce a SLR mode for the M8... Voila! best of both words..
With a 27.8mm registration there would be no room for that old flappy mirror.
Bob Ross
06-21-2006, 14:09
I think it's more there's no autofocus at all on the Olympus version when in preview mode. If the autofocus sensor can't see anything, it's not going to be able to focus.
Af could be done by contrast detection off of the sensor, very accurate, but also slower than phase detection.
Ted Witcher
07-04-2006, 16:05
Can someone explain the mechanics/physics of why live view with an LCD is not possible on the M8? I'm curious, as I was thinking that a fold-out LCD, like on consumer cams, might have a useful application in classic street-style rangefinder photography. If it were possible, then focussing via the screen would also be possible, no?
This has been posted so many times - according to Leitz the M8 will be based upon the M7 in terms of size and design.
Ted, the sensor has to "see" the scene in order to display it on the LCD. Like a dSLR, the M8 and Epson R-D1 use a shutter to expose the sensor. So the sensor only can display the shot that's been taken. Review, not preview, in other words. Digicams simply capture one moment among many from the "live" view imaged on the sensor.
They should introduce a SLR mode for the M8... Voila! best of both words..
What is wrong with my Visoflex III? Maybe they should reintroduce that, with a R-mount...
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