View Full Version : ZM disappeared from Cameraquest
Does anyone know why (almost) all references to Zeiss Ikon,
ZM and ZF lenses have disappeared from Cameraquest?
I hope it is temporary. I was saving money to get a couple of
lenses...
Pau
Just mail Stephen and ask. Maybe he is putting black and white dots on them :D
I hope it is an update, but that link does not work any more...
whitecat
06-13-2006, 14:50
I'm sure it will be right back online.....
Also, don't forget about Popflash, for those interested in ordering any of the ZM lineup. Same great prices and service as CQ. The only thing that gives Popflash an edge over CQ is their prices include CA sales tax, while CQ does not. That saved me over $100 when I got my ZI and about $70 when I got my 25/2.8 ZM. If I lived out of state it would be really hard to pick between the two companies, they're both just so great!
MacDaddy
06-13-2006, 15:49
Us Georgia boys have no idea who these folks are, so how about a link or two? I've e-mailed Stephen to see if he'll say why there are no longer any links about Zeiss. Hmmm! Strange indeed!
Probably not for this thread, but would be interested in any thoughts from anyone who's actually BOUGHT and used a ZI camera and/or some of the lenses. I've got a silver 250th Anniversary Bessa R3M on order with Stephen and can't wait as it's in my current (Student) budget, but want to move up the "food chain" as I get experience and the $$$.
Let us ALL know about these camera shops in the meantime, please.
Thanks!
I have not spoken with Stephen about this. However I suspect it may be something to do with Zeiss being their own distributors now. Lets hope Stephen updates us.
Kim Coxon
06-13-2006, 16:01
Hi,
The link to Popflash in on the left as they are one of the major sponsers. I am certainly very pleased with my 25/2.8. It still needs a good workout but hopefully, I will achieve that this weekend on the London meet.
Kim
Us Georgia boys have no idea who these folks are, so how about a link or two? I've e-mailed Stephen to see if he'll say why there are no longer any links about Zeiss. Hmmm! Strange indeed!
Probably not for this thread, but would be interested in any thoughts from anyone who's actually BOUGHT and used a ZI camera and/or some of the lenses. I've got a silver 250th Anniversary Bessa R3M on order with Stephen and can't wait as it's in my current (Student) budget, but want to move up the "food chain" as I get experience and the $$$.
Let us ALL know about these camera shops in the meantime, please.
Thanks!
When I said CQ I was of course referring to www.CameraQuest.com. The link for Popflash is www.popflash.com. Tony Rose (from Popflash) is a great person to deal with, just as Stephen from CQ is.
BTW, if you want some good feedback from ZI users, check out this thread I started back in April. Almost everyone that has bought a ZI has been more than pleased with it. Also, the two ZM lenses I own are absolutely superb.
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22526
MacDaddy
06-13-2006, 16:55
Doh! I've dealt with Stephen at CameraQuest for over a year and he's always been beyond generous with his help and the things he sells are always top notch! I'll check the thread on ZI out-thanks for the link!
SOMEDAY I hope to move to a Leica, but not until my skills justify the investment! I'd be delighted to afford to move up to ZI equipment right now, but honestly admit I have a LOOOONNGG way to go to even justify THAT! When I get good with the R3M and the four lenses with it, maybe then..
Here's hoping I can start posting by Fall 2006! Then you folks can pick me apart like buzzards at the scene of some roadkill! ;o) (And I WANT it, so I can get better!)
Doh! I've dealt with Stephen at CameraQuest for over a year and he's always been beyond generous with his help and the things he sells are always top notch! I'll check the thread on ZI out-thanks for the link!
SOMEDAY I hope to move to a Leica, but not until my skills justify the investment! I'd be delighted to afford to move up to ZI equipment right now, but honestly admit I have a LOOOONNGG way to go to even justify THAT! When I get good with the R3M and the four lenses with it, maybe then..
Here's hoping I can start posting by Fall 2006! Then you folks can pick me apart like buzzards at the scene of some roadkill! ;o) (And I WANT it, so I can get better!)
My camera gear far outweighs my talent! I just have the luxury to spend extra money on nice camera stuff.
BTW, if you read the ZI thread I posted, you'll see a lot of people who own both Leicas AND the ZI and they use the ZI more. My M2 gets taken out occasionally, but the ZI gets taken out every day. I love it!
MacDaddy
06-13-2006, 17:14
Mike Johnson and Michael Reichman have both stated in recent posts on their respective sites that we've gotten to the point with our equipment where its capabilities far exceed ours as photographers!
But I STILL want a ZI or Leica with lenses—someday! ;o)
willie_901
06-13-2006, 18:42
[/QUOTE= thoughts from anyone who's actually BOUGHT and used a ZI camera and/or some of the lenses. [/QUOTE]
Look here:
http://elekm.net/zeiss_ikon
and
http://elekm.net/zeiss_ikon/
and
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21801
Two months later, I can tell you I really enjoy using this camera.
willie
back alley
06-13-2006, 18:44
if i weren't so damn insecure, i'd sell everything but the zeiss, the zm lenses and the hex 90.
but i just know if i did then i'd drop the camera and someone would steal all the lenses;)
joe
Selling these "Zeiss" lenses probably doesn't suck in much money at all ... especially when you consider the volume - who actually knows how many ZM have been sold in the USA ... and on earth?
Selling these "Zeiss" lenses probably doesn't suck in much money at all ...
I hope this isn't another "The ZM stuff is just re-badged Cosina gear" claim... :rolleyes:
I hope this isn't another "The ZM stuff is just re-badged Cosina gear" claim... :rolleyes:
Nah ... but I suspect the demand is unexpectedly low and it simply doesn't make any economic sense to carry such an extra product line.
It's really not because this thing is a ZI, nor because it's made by Cosina ... in fact, one of my friends who operates a camera store chain even told his Leica rep never show up again - (brandnew) rangefinder (film) cameras just don't sell. ;)
Nah ... but I suspect the demand is unexpectedly low and it simply doesn't make any economic sense to carry such an extra product line.
It's really not because this thing is a ZI, nor because it's made by Cosina ... in fact, one of my friends who operates a camera store chain even told his Leica rep never show up again - (brandnew) rangefinder (film) cameras just don't sell. ;)
99% of the stuff sold through CameraQuest is rangefinder gear. So for Stephen Gandy it makes perfect sense to carry the ZM lineup.
I remember reading back in March or sometime around then that 3,000 ZI's had been sold and that there were three lenses sold for every body sold. Thats pretty impressive numbers for only being out a few months.
Showing information on the web is quite different from actually carrying them. Even if CQ do not carry them any more, the information can still be up there being displayed. Look at the various classic camera articles on his site, it is one of my favorite pastimes.
So what does the disappearing info mean? 1) either that CQ is making a total update on the information or 2) CQ stops carrying them and per request by Zeiss to remove relevant information.
Those are the only reasons I can think of at the moment.
MacDaddy
06-14-2006, 02:15
Got a personal reply back from Stephen at CQ just after midnight last night (EDT) and Zeiss has apparently been "strongly encouraging" non-direct sellers to bail out of the market. He has some stock left at the old prices, so if you want one get yer order in NOW before they're all gone! Guess Zeiss wants to kill the gray market and suck up all the lovin' themselves directly!
darkkavenger
06-14-2006, 02:29
Zeiss has apparently been "strongly encouraging" non-direct sellers to bail out of the market
If this proves to be true, then that's likely to be a counterproductive move from Zeiss. I appreciate the freedom of choice when wanting to buy something, and I don't like being dictated where I should make my purchases.
This makes no sense imho for a company that should WANT clientelle to be buying their gear. With the continued advance of digital technologies I find it hard to believe that folks that produce a film camera would want to LIMIT distribution.
I was still considering their lenses but if their distributors dry up (i.e. CQ, PopFlash etc.) then what's the point. I'm not about to order a lens in Euros from Zeiss themselves and pay huge shipping and taxes and duty (seeing as how it would be coming from Europe vs the U.S.A.).
This is a poor move on Zeiss' part imho.
Dave
This move is crazy. Zeiss is done with. Time to jump onto the Leica ship.
Les Lammers
06-14-2006, 04:04
I think the gray market ZI's were sourced when Hasselblad was the distributor. It may be more difficult to obtain product in the future.
Flyfisher Tom
06-14-2006, 04:11
This move is crazy. Zeiss is done with. Time to jump onto the Leica ship.
Yep, seems Zeiss management has gone insane. Even relative to Leica management standards :p
This sounds like the kind of thing big corporations do.
RF cameras are a boutique niche product, with a tiny, nitpicky customer base. It doesn't make a lot of sense to alienate these kinds of customers from their trusted merchants.
Andrew Touchon
06-14-2006, 05:37
I have been on the verge of ordering a 25mm ZM lens. However, this news has made me reconsider. I think I will either order a CV 28mm 1.9 Ultron ASPH or save up for a Leica 28mm Summicron ASPH. Stephen Gandy and Tony Rose are two of my favorite people to purchase from and Ziess won't get a penny out of me. :p
According to the ZI website (http://www.zeissikon.com/distributors.htm) there are only two distributors for the Zeiss Ikon. Cosina is the distributor in Japan and anyone else can buy direct from ZI on the web.
Peter
back alley
06-14-2006, 06:02
I have been on the verge of ordering a 25mm ZM lens. However, this news has made me reconsider. I think I will either order a CV 28mm 1.9 Ultron ASPH or save up for a Leica 28mm Summicron ASPH. Steven and Tony Rose are two of my favorite people to purchase from and Ziess won't get a penny out of me. :p
email either tony or stephen and see what they have for stock.
don't spite yourself and miss out on a great lens.
joe
Flyfisher Tom
06-14-2006, 06:08
I have been on the verge of ordering a 25mm ZM lens. However, this news has made me reconsider. I think I will either order a CV 28mm 1.9 Ultron ASPH or save up for a Leica 28mm Summicron ASPH. Steven and Tony Rose are two of my favorite people to purchase from and Ziess won't get a penny out of me. :p
Go for the CV 28mm/1.9, it is a stellar lens, well made and great signature wide open. Good thing to support Mr. Kobayashi and CV while Zeiss goes insane.
Flyfisher Tom
06-14-2006, 06:12
Geez, the ZI prices are in euros, factor in the conversion rate, the customs/import fees .... they really have gone off the deep end if they think this will INCREASE sales !
Andrew Touchon
06-14-2006, 07:06
email either tony or stephen and see what they have for stock.
don't spite yourself and miss out on a great lens.
joe
Thanks for the comment. However, In real world handheld usage I seriously doubt that I would ever be able to tell the difference between the various lenses. Ziess has really peeved me off and not using their products is my small way of getting even. :D
back alley
06-14-2006, 07:22
Thanks for the comment. However, In real world handheld usage I seriously doubt that I would ever be able to tell the difference between the various lenses. Ziess has really peeved me off and not using their products is my small way of getting even. :D
totally your call.
Flyfisher Tom
06-14-2006, 07:26
Zeiss aside, they can shoot themselves in the foot if they wish ...
I'm more curious and excited about the new CV offering for the 25mm lens, now that non-rangefinder coupled CV 25 has been retired.
Given that Zeiss lenses are made by Cosina (albeit with proprietary designs), perhaps Mr. Kobayashi has brewed some exciting ideas from the experience for the new rangefinder-coupled CV 25 offering :-)
Hold your horses everybody! Zeiss is setting up an international network of distributors. They apologize for any inconvenience. Let's give them some time to get organised!
This makes perfect sense business wise for Zeiss and their distributors, considering the extreme low volume of RF gears going around, less competition is great ... and apparently, Zeiss has overwhelming confidence that many folks will still buy no matter what.
Flyfisher Tom
06-14-2006, 08:43
This makes perfect sense business wise for Zeiss and their distributors, considering the extreme low volume of RF gears going around, less competition is great ... and apparently, Zeiss has overwhelming confidence that many folks will still buy no matter what.
Really? Distributors are not your competition, they are your partners. Otherwise, Canon and Nikon would have cut off B&H years ago :D
Limiting your distributorships only cut off the avenues of purchase for your customers, thus lowering your own competitive edge. Particularly in a field where the volume is very low to begin with, how much savings are you really going to get in limiting distribution avenues versus the increased flow you could have enjoyed with Steven Gandy? Not to mention that Gandy's website is a mecca of information for all things RF, thus, a very well-traveled source of free advertisement. Now Zeiss has lost that too.
With business acumen like this, I'd be hard pressed into buying into their cameras or lenses. How long can this business model last? And what service support will there be in the future? Is Zeiss Ikon well established enough (as Leica is) to have the likes of independent 3rd parties like Krauter and DAG servicing them? Who knows.
I hope Zeiss Ikon survives. More real competition in the M-mount analog and digital arena is always good.
Maybe Zeiss will straighten this out. But to "strongly" suggest to Gandy that he should stop in the interim, seems like bad business sense and practice. You lose revenue stream, ad space, and customer good will. I hope the pennies are worth it. But then again, this is the same company that naively used the phrase "Final Solution" in their most recent ad campaign ;)
So I'm not holding out much hope.
Read this.
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=320134#post320134
patrickjames
06-14-2006, 08:53
Why is everyone threatening to abandon Zeiss just because they are doing something smart for their business? How many people buy grey market Leicas on this forum? Anyone? I still want to get one, it will just cost a little more. The camera is a fantastic tool and still a much better deal than a Leica. Look on these forums. Everyone that has one loves them.
Andrew Touchon
06-14-2006, 09:56
Why is everyone threatening to abandon Zeiss just because they are doing something smart for their business? How many people buy grey market Leicas on this forum? Anyone? I still want to get one, it will just cost a little more. The camera is a fantastic tool and still a much better deal than a Leica. Look on these forums. Everyone that has one loves them.
I purchased the following grey market items from Tony Rose: Leica M6TTL, 35mm Summicron ASPH, SF 20 Flash, 1.25 viewfinder magnifier, and Leica camera straps. I saved approximately 30% and am a very happy camper. :)
On the online order page (http://www.zeiss.com/C12567A8003B58B9/allBySubject/F354CCE904930742C1257145001C79D3) Zeiss Ikon lists at €1,257.76 ex. VAT. So given the prices CQ and Robert White has had it's a bit more expensive, but about half the price of a new Leica (here in Sweden at least). But hey, I've probably bought too many cameras this year already, so... :D
Maybe a bit of people power is in order. An email to Zeiss letting them know how valuable Stephen has been in promoting rangefinders including there own perhaps?
I was recently in the market for a ZI but after considering the service issues and the re-sale value, I decided to buy a mint- M6 classic for $1000.00 USD. Buying direct from Zeiss now means paying $1600.00 plus for the camera while mint- M7’s sell for 1900-2000 USD. Perhaps controlling the sales of the ZI though Zeiss direct the company projects an image of a product that has greater exclusivity and quality rather then through grey market re-sellers that are selling the product next to the Cosina product line.
patrickjames
06-14-2006, 12:56
I wonder if anyone is considering that by cutting out the middle man (Hasselblad) they might be able to lower the price because they are lowering their costs. We might get a surprise out of this in several months. We all know that they are not going away.
It says on their distributor page (http://www.zeissikon.com/distributors.htm) that "Cosina will remain our distribution partner in Japan."
Got a personal reply back from Stephen at CQ just after midnight last night (EDT) and Zeiss has apparently been "strongly encouraging" non-direct sellers to bail out of the market. He has some stock left at the old prices, so if you want one get yer order in NOW before they're all gone! Guess Zeiss wants to kill the gray market and suck up all the lovin' themselves directly!
Zeiss has been "strongly encouraging" non-direct sellers to bail out of the market? I hope Gandy doesn't own a racehorse!
Basically, this is Zeiss's attempt to dry up the (cheaper) grey market product availability, right--effectively a price hike for the average buyer?
Really? Distributors are not your competition, they are your partners. Otherwise, Canon and Nikon would have cut off B&H years ago.
A parallel importer being the friend of the "official" distributor, come on ... then why do people bother signing up contract securing their "exclusive rights" ? :D
That being said, CameraQuest may not be interested in signing up the "official dealership at all ... guess what, he probably has to stock up at a higher than warehouse/factory price with guaranteed annual sales volume, burn his profit on advertising, hiring service people ... and end up with making no money at all.
Hold your horses everybody! Zeiss is setting up an international network of distributors. They apologize for any inconvenience. Let's give them some time to get organised!
I'm pretty sure Zeiss was not happy with Hasselblad as a distributor. The Hasselblad dealer here has no ZI body or lenses and is not willing to order them anywhere.
A parallel importer being the friend of the "official" distributor, come on ... then why do people bother signing up contract securing their "exclusive rights" ? :D
I had one of those contracts with Tektronix, once. We had four of their printers as demo equipment and got 20% on list.
Three weeks later Tektronix made deal with Ingram Micro and any dealer could get the printers 25% under list. So we had the cost and others the sales :-(
I wonder if anyone is considering that by cutting out the middle man (Hasselblad) they might be able to lower the price because they are lowering their costs.
"Able" and "willing" are two different things, I'm afraid. :bang: Zeiss probably figures the "full price" still undercuts Leica by a large margin and decides that there is no need to lower it. Moreover, the ZI will only become more attractive with time, considering Leica's semi-annual price increases.
I'm pretty sure Zeiss was not happy with Hasselblad as a distributor. The Hasselblad dealer here has no ZI body or lenses and is not willing to order them anywhere.
So true. And that's not the only Hassey dealer who refused to order or even mention the ZI line.
Just had a look at the ZI webshop, they have to list prices incl. VaT in germany!
This can be a reason for a nasty and expensive letter by a dealers lawyer, with the webshop for endusers they are competing with every photo dealer who has a webshop.
MacDaddy
06-14-2006, 14:59
The bottom line, folks is this: if you want to save money on a ZI or the ZM lenses, e-mail Stephen and/or others and get a listing of what they have available before they sell through! There are MANY reasons why a company might want to "kill" the gray market and one of the main ones none of you has talked about is the possible legal liability from a purchaser who believes they have gotten a defective product that isn't being backed up by the gray market seller. (Which does NOT apply to Stephen, Popflash and others who sponsor this site)
Under US law and those of many states, plus many EU contries, that purchaser is entitled to legal redress and financial compensation against the manufacturer in the event of a defective product. This may not be (and probably isn't) the ONLY reason Zeiss is pressuring the unofficial sellers to cease, but in a country as litigious as the US, it's certainly a very good one! Just some food for thought before this discussion gets out-of-hand.
back alley
06-14-2006, 15:03
i believe that both nikon & canon refuse warranty service on any grey market purchases.
frankily, i'm waiting to hear directly from someone in the know, like stephen or tony before even getting close to a judgement on any of it.
joe
frankily, i'm waiting to hear directly from someone in the know, like stephen or tony before even getting close to a judgement on any of it.
It's funny how neither has responded to this. I know they've occasionally posted here. Either they are sitting back, reading this thread and laughing, or what? *shrug*
back alley
06-14-2006, 15:23
your guess is as good as mine.
back alley
06-14-2006, 15:38
excellent news!
many thanks tony!!!
Flyfisher Tom
06-14-2006, 15:39
I wonder if anyone is considering that by cutting out the middle man (Hasselblad) they might be able to lower the price because they are lowering their costs. We might get a surprise out of this in several months. We all know that they are not going away.
Zeiss cuts out the middle man (Hasselblad) so that Zeiss can pass on that saving to us ... yes, that would be a 'surprise' indeed :D
I hope you're right Patrick ;)
Flyfisher Tom
06-14-2006, 15:42
We are still going strong with Zeiss ZM and ZF goods from three different suppliers. I really do not think that Zeiss Germany can put the squeeze Popflash.Photo.
If the consumer have the need to buy Zeiss at USA pricing, more power to their pocket book.
We paln to be around for many years offering great prices with the best Customer Service.
Tony
Tony,
If I weren't married already, I'd give you a kiss ... hell, I still might ;) Thanks for the great news.
MacDaddy
06-14-2006, 17:00
This makes Stephen Gandy's cryptic remark all the more perplexing. There is more to this CameraQuest story than meets the eye . . . or than has bee said.
The simple solution is to e-mail Stephen and ask him like I did! He may not tell you any more than he did me, and I'm CERTAINLY not at the top of his list of confidants! If he chooses to enlighten any of us further, so be it! If not, well, we can all speculate until you-know-what freezes over. Whatever is or has happened between Stephen and Cosina and/or Zeiss (IF ANYTHING!) is his business and I believe he'll tell us more if he wants; right?
David Murphy
06-14-2006, 17:24
Carl Zeiss was founded in 1846 and has managed to sell a little glass since then. Despite our buring desire here for bargains, this longevity probably indicates pretty good business sense when it comes to them deciding how best to sell their products.
With all due respect to Camera Quest (and plenty is genuinely due), I think Zeiss will fare just fine.
Huck Finn
06-14-2006, 18:55
The simple solution is to e-mail Stephen and ask him like I did! He may not tell you any more than he did me, and I'm CERTAINLY not at the top of his list of confidants! If he chooses to enlighten any of us further, so be it! If not, well, we can all speculate until you-know-what freezes over. Whatever is or has happened between Stephen and Cosina and/or Zeiss (IF ANYTHING!) is his business and I believe he'll tell us more if he wants; right?
I will not e-mail Stephen. He certainly knows that he can post here if he wants to clarify this matter & I wish he would. I don't really have a need or a burning desire to know the answer. I only offer my comments as part of the general discussion because people here seemed to be taking the comment from Stephen at face value. I'm simply offering the opinion that there may be more to this than what appears on the surface. Tony Rose's post adds to my belief that this is so.
Stephen Gandy certainly doesn't owe anyone an explanation. His reasons for his business decisions are his own. However, when any business eliminates a highly regarded product line without explanation, this will raise questions among the customer base & they are likely to specualte . When an inadequate explanation is offered, this will only confound the customers even further.
However, In real world handheld usage I seriously doubt that I would ever be able to tell the difference between the various lenses.
After using the Planar T* 50/2 I won I can tell you you'll immediately see the difference between say a J8 and the Planar. Whether you can see the difference between the various Leica 50mm offerings, I don't know but I do see a difference between the Planar and the Minolta M-Rokkor 40/2.
Zeiss would have been better served to implement the new purchasing/ordering arrangements prior to the announcement. I.e., get US pricing and shipping set up to avoid a de facto price increase.
US pricing is risky when you don't produce in US$ countries.
You can play the save side and calculate $1.50 per Euro and don't sell much or you hope that the US$ doesn't fall further than $1.20 per Euro and pay the difference out of whatever you have.
A Leica M is 3,645 Euro at todays $1.26 per Euro, a ZI 1,578!
Want cheaper imports? Raise the value of the US$ :)
RJBender
06-15-2006, 05:44
Geez, the ZI prices are in euros, factor in the conversion rate, the customs/import fees .... they really have gone off the deep end if they think this will INCREASE sales !
Don't forget what they said on their website last year.
"Well – the new Zeiss Ikon camera should come with a body that, first of all, enables positive grip with European size male hands. This, to us, is a very important requirement, something which seems to be much less important to many makers of consumer digital cameras and cell phones."
http://www.zeissikon.com/making3.htm
R.J.
RJBender
06-15-2006, 05:51
Did you guys read the press releases?
2006-06-01: Mechanical improvements postpone market introduction of the Carl Zeiss Sonnar T* 2/85 ZM lens
Extensive prototype testing of the Carl Zeiss Sonnar T* 2/85 ZM lens for the Zeiss Ikon camera has suggested improvements towards long term ruggedness of this first internal focusing tele lens for a rangefinder camera. After several attempts with modifications which could have been applied relatively short term and did not fully deliver the intended results, we have now decided for a major redesign. This redesign will significantly increase the durability and long term precision of the Carl Zeiss Sonnar T* 2/85 ZM lens. It will, however, also delay the first shipments. We will inform about the availability of the Carl Zeiss Sonnar T* 2/85 ZM as soon as we can.
2006-06-01: Carl Zeiss Distagon T* 2,8/15 ZM - Series production on halt due to sudden shortage of useable parts
Series production of the Carl Zeiss Distagon T* 2,8/15 ZM lens for the Zeiss Ikon rangefinder camera had to be halted after a complete lot of parts had unexpectedly proven out of specification and therefore unusable. We will do our best to continue production of the Carl Zeiss Distagon T* 2,8/15 ZM and will inform about further availability of this super wide angle lens as soon as possible.
2006-02-13: Shipment information
The Sonnar T* 2/85 ZM is now scheduled for start of deliveries in May 2006.
The delay is caused by the extraordinary measures necessary to take to assure the extremely high precision requirements of the design in terms of both optical and mechanical performance.
http://www.zeissikon.com/news.htm
R.J.
Is Zeiss stumbling at every turn? I am just getting over the Zeiss / Kyocera divorce. I think people would genuinely like to buy Zeiss products and help support them in their own tiny way. Too bad Zeiss insists on shafting them before they get a chance to write the cheque! I'm sorry but most people can not afford and are unwilling to pay suggested list price for anything, cameras, cars, or corn flakes. :eek:
John, even at list price the ZI is not more expensive than a USED Leica M6.
There's allways the Voigtländer for those who want to buy new for less than the price of a ZI.
I can not afford a Leica at list price, do they care?
aoresteen
06-15-2006, 06:14
Maybe I'm reading this wrong but:
"Zeiss has apparently been "strongly encouraging" non-direct sellers to bail out of the market "
Non-Direct means "local dealers"? This would seem that Zeiss WANTS only DIRECT dealers to sell ZI stuff like Cameraquest & PopFlash?
The question I would ask Zeiss is given that I live in Florida and no one in town carries ZI product (and never will for that matter) I have to order from someone, if they were spening their own money, who would they buy from?
B&H sells the 50mm Plannar for $800 as does Photo Village. Cameraquest & PopFlash sell it for $600. On the Zeiss site I can order it for about $900 (includes shipping & tax & Euro converison).
If Zeiss management really expects us to pay a 50% bump just to be able to buy from them they are sadly mistaken. I doubt if they were spening their own personal money that they would pay the 50% extra just to buy it from Zeiss.
OK so now the greymarket dries up. That means volume is down. Zeiss sells less product. Is that what they want? Zeiss should be PLEASED to have Cameraquest as a dealer. I believe that if Cameraquest hadn't jumped in and sold Cosins Voigtlander stuff early on, that Cosina would not have survived in the the RF market. This allowed Cosina to develope new lenses and cameras over the last 4 years. Zeiss should take note.
Maybe I'm reading this wrong but:
B&H sells the 50mm Plannar for $800 as does Photo Village. Cameraquest & PopFlash sell it for $600. On the Zeiss site I can order it for about $900 (includes shipping & tax & Euro converison).
I think Photo Village advertises the 50 Planar for $600 grey market and $800 US warranty.
Flyfisher Tom
06-15-2006, 06:22
What Tony Oresteen said :-)
And Socke, the Zeiss Ikon (direct) prices may not be higher than USED Leica M6 prices in Europe, they certainly are ALOT higher than USED Leica M6 prices in the US.
aoresteen
06-15-2006, 07:05
Tryom,
That might be true but when I asked them on the phone for their price on the 50mm lens last week they said $800 and did not mention a lower price of $600.
I agree with Huck on this matter, the "damage" for Zeiss's latest move is minimal to none ... how many years Leica has been putting an astronomical price tag on their products? now is everyone able to afford an USED leica? their business still goes strong.
Huck Finn
06-15-2006, 07:17
What Tony Oresteen said :-)
And Socke, the Zeiss Ikon (direct) prices may not be higher than USED Leica M6 prices in Europe, they certainly are ALOT higher than USED Leica M6 prices in the US.
Is that before or after the CLA is factored in?
Come on let's compare apples & apples. A new ZI with AE vs a 20+ year old M6? How about ZI vs M7. Less than half the price & cheaper than a used M7. That's a fair comparison.
Is that before or after the CLA is factored in?
Come on let's compare apples & apples. A new ZI with AE vs a 20+ year old M6? How about ZI vs M7. Less than half the price & cheaper than a used M7. That's a fair comparison.
Yes, I compared to a used M6TTL in like new condition with one year waranty, not against a user M2.
back alley
06-15-2006, 07:32
there are few places anywhere in any country that carry new rf stock.
the days of going in and touching the product are almost gone.
the rf market is niche now and most of us will be buying off the internet if we want something.
do i like that? not really.
it was very nice buying the 90 hex in town and putting it on my camera and playing with it before i bought it. but that's one peice of gear in all the i have.
joe
Probably, the only exception to the above is if city you live in has a Leica dealer.
I would bet dollars to donuts that most employees at corporate owned chains like Ritz or Wolf have never picked up a rangefinder camera.
back alley
06-15-2006, 07:42
we have a leica dealer in town.
they have one camera and maybe 2 lenses.
they had that hex and sold it to me for less than they paid for it, just to get rid of it.
they had maybe 3 bessa r cameras when they came out. i bought one for about $600 cdn. they still have a 28/1.9 on display.
joe
I have a dealer about 20 miles away but you have to make an appointment, no showroom and staff, a few years ago I had a choice of six or more proper shops; progress has its good and bad aspects.
I think Photo Village advertises the 50 Planar for $600 grey market and $800 US warranty.
So there is a choice. If ZI does not want a choice to be available, then they will be able to judge the results through sales numbers.
Any idea if Cameraquest is still able to fulfill their warranties for the ZI/ZF items? No indication on the web page....
Any idea if Cameraquest is still able to fulfill their warranties for the ZI/ZF items? No indication on the web page....
Why not? They send defective items to their source and those get it repaired or exchanged.
Same if you buy an IBM BladeCenter at my company and it is faulty you call me and I call Ingram Micro, depending on your service level the faulty part will be repaired on location, picked up or you get an RMA and send it to the next IBM service center yourself.
It's just a question of time without the equipment. If you don't need it badly you can risk a couple of weeks without it and thus save money.
I will close this thread for now since Stephen will answer most questions in an upcoming thread. Better to hear it from the source than speculate.
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