View Full Version : Price increase for Leica USA and M8 Delivery
Tony Rose
06-01-2006, 15:01
Yep, it is official. There will be a 4 to 5 % icrease on Leica M lenses and Leica Sport Optics. The M and R cameras along with A La Carte program will not go up until the first of January 2007. :bang:
Also the Leica Digital M is now called the M8 for an unofficial estimate at $47***** Black and Silver. We are told that we will be receiving our first shipment by the second to fourth week in November. If you are interested, we are now taking deposits for our first delivery. At this time there are now 32 firm slots in the Queue. We have 60 units on order through December.
Have a great Summer!
TR
telenous
06-01-2006, 15:39
Isn't anyone going to say something?
How odd to greet the arrival of the M8 with silence...
It's coming.
wow, this sounds too good to be true. they're going to meet both the deadline and the target price? :D
$5K ? I'd better save some, then, and then save some more for lenses. Luckily, my GAS is very limited and I managed to not order that very sexy looking MP-3 a few times in a row.
Were specs of number of megapixels, multiply factor etc. know already ?
Peter.
back alley
06-01-2006, 16:41
makes the rd1 look like a bargain now.
5k is actually a car or two less than what I expected the digital M to be priced.
deposit check is in the mail tomorrow.
Mackinaw
06-01-2006, 16:54
I have absolutely no interest in digital, at least so far, but if any camera could get me to cross over to the dark side, the M8 is it. I'll be watching this camera closely.
Jim Bielecki
back alley
06-01-2006, 16:55
deposit check is in the mail tomorrow.
i wanna be on your payroll!
5k is actually a car or two less than what I expected the digital M to be priced.LOL rover!. Actually you can get two M7s for that. Right now I think I'd rather have the M7s.
amateriat
06-01-2006, 17:07
Oh, we're all just struck speechless, is all...
- Barrett
JoeFriday
06-01-2006, 17:11
I'm going to wait 6 months until the M8 is obsolete and pick one up used for $800
Well, there you have it, kind of a so what?
I think that now that Godot is about to arrive the anticipation is as bubbly as a bottle of flat soda.
I do think its too bad they are calling it the M8 and not the D8 or DM8.
Sounds as if the M7 is indeed the end of Leica's film RF line....
Edit: then again, they probably could not maintain two RF production lines....?
I'm going to wait 6 months until the M8 is obsolete and pick one up used for $800
The wonderful digital world we live in.
Ray_g and I were just talking this morning.
To DSLR or not to DSLR? That is the question.
What will 2007 bring?
merciful
06-01-2006, 17:26
OK: not interested. I like Tri-X better.
Isn't anyone going to say something?
How odd to greet the arrival of the M8 with silence...
It's coming.
Also the Leica Digital M is now offically called the M8 for $4995.00 Black body only at this time. We are told that we will be receiving our first shipment by the second week in October.
Any specs? e.g. framelines, power supply, interface, final crop factor, ISO range, etc.?
$5000 seems stiffish for a pig in a poke, even if the poke does say "Leica" on it.
John Camp
06-01-2006, 17:53
This is excellent news indeed. I can't wait. If Leica can be that definite with a dealer, about delivery, then they must be either in production or right next to it.
Here's a tip for you film guys: the quality of photography depends on the quality of the photographer, but on a technical basis, this camera is going to kick film's ass; this will be like owning a Leica medium format film camera. :D
JC
merciful
06-01-2006, 18:03
Just as soon as you can do with the M8 what I do with TX at EI 12,800, we can discuss the technical issues; the rest of your statement is inarguable.
Here's a tip for you film guys: the quality of photography depends on the quality of the photographer, but on a technical basis, this camera is going to kick film's ass; this will be like owning a Leica medium format film camera. :D
JC
This is excellent news indeed. I can't wait. If Leica can be that definite with a dealer, about delivery, then they must be either in production or right next to it.
Here's a tip for you film guys: the quality of photography depends on the quality of the photographer, but on a technical basis, this camera is going to kick film's ass; this will be like owning a Leica medium format film camera. :D
JC
May I ask one question?
Why?
It will be a high priced digiRF with about a 10.3mp sensor.
This is not some kind of a technological breakthrough.
It is simply a luxury good belatedly joining an already well-advanced technological movement.
Do you think that because some of us here like (and perhaps even, prefer) film-based photography that we are naive?
John, get a grip - we're none of us babies here,
Okay?
[QUOTE=rover].
To DSLR or not to DSLR? That is the question.
[QUOTE]
No offense meant but if your style of photography is one where a DSLR is even a consideration I wonder why you would use a RF in the first place. A DSLR has zero attraction for me. I thought maybe it would until I picked one up, added a lens, felt the weight, heft and bulk, and my voice shouted inside said a big "no thank you."
First of all I do not want to see a film vs digital war start here.
As far as price is concerned, its about the same price of a nice dslr such as a nikon d2x. So, although 5k seems like a lot its not out of the norm for the type of product. Also, if you own m lenses, more than half of your investment has already been made :)
The good news is it's the first really pro RF digital system and our existing lenses will work on it. I see it as another tool not a replacement for film or our DSLR's. It will suplement my 1DsmkII equipment for my commercial clients and might even become my #1 camera. Although I use my canon system daily on assignments and really like the quality of the system, cannon support and the quality of the images. No matter how good the system and images are it's not the total answer to all work. Some jobs lend themselves better to RF vs SLR. One thing I've learned over the past seven years of digital shooting is that I will let someone else buy the first and get the bugs out before I invest my 5K. I've been through the digital madness and plunked down my money and have returned to film for my personal work. It's very unlikely that even the M8 will replace my M film cameras and change my love for film photography.
http://www.photo.net/photos/X-Ray
First of all I do not want to see a film vs digital war start here.
As far as price is concerned, its about the same price of a nice dslr such as a nikon d2x. So, although 5k seems like a lot its not out of the norm for the type of product. Also, if you own m lenses, more than half of your investment has already been made :)
Jorge,
Thanks for "causing a pause" because this should not be a digi v. film thread.
As a "cross over" shooter I am glad to finally see the digiM (er...M8) be announced. Not currently a M-mount shooter I have a higher $ hurdle to climb if I want to go there - but glad that option is now there.
[Oh, BTW, have to now learn more about that guy in HK who says he has Nikkor to M-mount rings! :D )
But, what kind of p'o'd me was the claim that suddenly a 35mm frame camera (of any kind) would now be like a MF? :confused:
Odd claim to me, anyway.
ill wait for the full framed one so I can use my 35 cron the way it was ment to be used
plus 5000 is just way too expensive, I think knocking at least 2000 off that price would be a little more resonable....
I just spent 400 dollars not including processing for six weeks of film. Amortized to a year, that is 3500 dollars a year on film before processing. The digital M is starting to sound like a bargain to me...
I am interested to see how the ISO 400+ performs. Below 400 the DMR is fantastic, but at 400 and above it is still great, just no longer competative with Canon. The M8 will have a different sensor and a different firmware maker (Jenoptik), so it will be interesting to see how it performs at high ISO's. Granted, I shoot mostly at ISO 100, but it is nice to have a superb 800 or 1600 when you need it.
Creagerj
06-01-2006, 19:04
What does it look like? Where can we look at specs?
too bad its not chrome :( I guess this would be a good excuse to get the 75 or 28
wyk_penguin
06-01-2006, 19:51
Well, there you have it, kind of a so what?
I think that now that Godot is about to arrive the anticipation is as bubbly as a bottle of flat soda.
I do think its too bad they are calling it the M8 and not the D8 or DM8.
Sounds as if the M7 is indeed the end of Leica's film RF line....
Edit: then again, they probably could not maintain two RF production lines....?
It sounds like that. :( But maybe in the future they will go M9F :D ..... digital is the way to go?
The question remains. What is there to improve on the M? A hinged back perhaps? IMHO, there is not much to do with film Ms. As for digital, this year could be the year of 12 Mega pixels and the next year woud be that of 15 Mega pixels. The road could be endless (so is the GAS). If Leica is to survive till the next century, it has to go into the dirty battlefield of pixels.
[QUOTE=rover].
To DSLR or not to DSLR? That is the question.
[QUOTE]
No offense meant but if your style of photography is one where a DSLR is even a consideration I wonder why you would use a RF in the first place. A DSLR has zero attraction for me. I thought maybe it would until I picked one up, added a lens, felt the weight, heft and bulk, and my voice shouted inside said a big "no thank you."
I use a DSLR for the things that it does well. I don't however think that this appreciation necessitates any lack of appreciation for the things that an RF does well. I like them both for what they are and its pointless to suggest that one is somehow superior to the other except for different purposes. Is water color "better" than oil on canvas? I maintain that it is not, but it is very different. If I ever get rich enough to buy an M8 or something similar I'll certainly keep, and use, my film camera, too, and my DSLR.
Sumo_du_Jour
06-01-2006, 20:05
Thanks for the positive news Tony.
Great to see the camera progressing on track.
Regs,
PJQ
shutterflower
06-01-2006, 20:12
Any specs? e.g. framelines, power supply, interface, final crop factor, ISO range, etc.?
$5000 seems stiffish for a pig in a poke, even if the poke does say "Leica" on it.
crop factor is it for me. I'll never buy any camera with a crop factor. Ever.
Perhaps by the time the full frame digital Leica camera comes out, I'll have enough cash to get one.
That price, even though it's competitive, made this old retired guy take a deep breath and step back a bit. If I really want an M8 it would be a heck of a stretch and I'd have to sell just about everything I have now, including the R-D1. And I should probably sell the R-D1 now while there's still some value. And I use a lot of LTM lenses so where would that leave me for frame lines?
I dunno. Maybe the Panasonic L1 deserves a look. At least the shutter speed dial, aperture ring and viewfinder are in the right places and with a couple of old Zuiko primes maybe it will feel okay.
im waiting for the ziess ikon digital offering, I got my fingers crossed that it will be full frames and a hell of a lot cheaper then the leica
I'm with Jorge. I want CHROME!!!!!!
I really hope that Leica listens and doesn't make chrome, some sort of a la carte only option.
Ray
besides the new m8, does anyone else think that the new price increase is a bunch of &%#$ since leicas are already so expensive?
I guess the price increase really just reflect the current value of US dollars ... your money aren't worth more than before. ;)
I guess the price increase really just reflect the current value of US dollars ... your money aren't worth more than before. ;)
thank goodness im living in China then, where the cameras and lenses are still much cheaper. New 35 cron asph for 1600 anyone? Or maybe a new M7 for 2500?
George, even 135 film is a crop of 120 film! It's just that they made lenses for that crop. Just like they're now making lenses specifically for the crop on these digi cams. :)
I just spent 400 dollars not including processing for six weeks of film. Amortized to a year, that is 3500 dollars a year on film before processing. The digital M is starting to sound like a bargain to me...
I am interested to see how the ISO 400+ performs. Below 400 the DMR is fantastic, but at 400 and above it is still great, just no longer competative with Canon. The M8 will have a different sensor and a different firmware maker (Jenoptik), so it will be interesting to see how it performs at high ISO's. Granted, I shoot mostly at ISO 100, but it is nice to have a superb 800 or 1600 when you need it.
Include into the calculation the following hidden costs for digital:
Price of PC system and all required software
Time spent catagorizing, archiving and processing digital images
Rapid depreciation of camera
[more unknown hidden costs]
$5K?
No thanks, my RD-1 is good enough, and now you can get an RD1s for about $2k.
I am going to wait for a full fram RF before upgrading my RD-1
Mark Norton
06-02-2006, 00:50
I think it's impressive that Leica have been able to hold the price to $4995 + tax given the decline in the value of the dollar recently. For UK readers, thats something like £3199 including tax; in Europe, it's something like €4500 including tax.
Lots of questions, still to be answered about levels of lens compatability, viewfiinder frame lines, availability of aux finders, viewfinder magnification. And, and, and...
It's right that they called it M8 not D8 because its USP is still the Messsucher (Measuring-finder) and film-M has handed the baton on to digital-M.
Overall, a bargain and I'm excited.
LOL rover!. Actually you can get two M7s for that. Right now I think I'd rather have the M7s.
May I ask where I can get all those cheap Leicas? I could set up a business buying M7s for $2500 and selling 12% under list at 3000 Euro here.
[QUOTE=rover].
To DSLR or not to DSLR? That is the question.
[QUOTE]
No offense meant but if your style of photography is one where a DSLR is even a consideration I wonder why you would use a RF in the first place. A DSLR has zero attraction for me. I thought maybe it would until I picked one up, added a lens, felt the weight, heft and bulk, and my voice shouted inside said a big "no thank you."
I guess that is why there is hesitation.
My style of photography, when I am alone and have the time to relax and enjoy what I am doing then there is no question, a RF is perfect. But with a 6 YO son I find myself more an more not being the photographer, but being an active participant in our adventures.
This is the same reason that the Digital M is not attractive. All of the bells an whistles that go along with a DSLR are what is attractive to me, for when I need them.
I just spent 400 dollars not including processing for six weeks of film.
$300 for processing after last year's vacation, digital does have big big advantages, though now I am almost 100% B&W and process my own film.
Include into the calculation the following hidden costs for digital:
Price of PC system and all required software
Irrelevant, have that anyways. Capable enough for 4000dpi scans, shuld handle a mere 10MPixel very well
Time spent catagorizing, archiving and processing digital images
No, I burn a CD and throw it in a shoebox which is stored in the cellar together with the shoeboxes full of negatives
Rapid depreciation of camera
[more unknown hidden costs]
When I buy a camera it will be used, there is no resale value left when I'm through with it :)
Include into the calculation the following hidden costs for digital:
Price of PC system and all required software
Time spent catagorizing, archiving and processing digital images
Rapid depreciation of camera
[more unknown hidden costs]
I have used the same argument to justify my slowness to embrace the new world order.
But......
I have a PC and Photoshop Elements 4 is cheap or free bundled with a camera or some hardware thingy
Time spent on a hobby is time well spent
Rapid depreciation of camera, no argument there, just use it a lot and get your money's worth out of it.
Again, no digital vs film argument left for me, just a decision of what is best for me.
May I ask where I can get all those cheap Leicas? I could set up a business buying M7s for $2500 and selling 12% under list at 3000 Euro here.
Used, who buys new Leicas?
Irrelevant, have that anyways. Capable enough for 4000dpi scans, shuld handle a mere 10MPixel very well
No, I burn a CD and throw it in a shoebox which is stored in the cellar together with the shoeboxes full of negatives
When I buy a camera it will be used, there is no resale value left when I'm through with it :)
Great minds think alike, and I haven't had my coffee yet this morning. :D
Will the M8 be small and light? Any pictures? Hopefully no rear LCD screen for me :)
Daniel.
May I ask where I can get all those cheap Leicas? I could set up a business buying M7s for $2500 and selling 12% under list at 3000 Euro here.
you can buy new leica m7's here in china and hong kong for about 2500-2700 USD. Which is why I kind of laugh at the prices at say....KEH for a used M7 that is the same or just 100-200 dollars less then here. But then of course there is always the customs fees you would have to pay for there, actually being in China is the key to that little doozy.
I hope these sell really well and end up flooding the second hand market in 3 years.
Fat chance :D
On the other hand not being an RF exclusive zealot 5000$ would pay for a d200 and some VEEEERY nice lenses.
you can buy new leica m7's here in china and hong kong for about 2500-2700 USD. Which is why I kind of laugh at the prices at say....KEH for a used M7 that is the same or just 100-200 dollars less then here. But then of course there is always the customs fees you would have to pay for there, actually being in China is the key to that little doozy.
Funny thing, looks like the price falls with shipping. In germany you are hard pressed to find a M under 3350 Euro. Some have gray market, i.e. reimports, for less but without the 2 year manufacturer waranty.
Have to ask my boss to look up a camera for me the next time he's in HK or Macao.
telenous
06-02-2006, 02:53
One thing I've learned over the past seven years of digital shooting is that I will let someone else buy the first and get the bugs out before I invest my 5K. I've been through the digital madness and plunked down my money and have returned to film for my personal work. It's very unlikely that even the M8 will replace my M film cameras and change my love for film photography.
http://www.photo.net/photos/X-Ray
Xray, you 're so right on this. I 've been thinking about it too. It would be great to have a digital option but I will wait to see what the new camera really is, and how actual users feel about it - all the while Leica debugs the first bunch.
Nikon Bob
06-02-2006, 02:54
I hope these sell really well and end up flooding the second hand market in 3 years.
Fat chance :D
On the other hand not being an RF exclusive zealot 5000$ would pay for a d200 and some VEEEERY nice lenses.
That says it for me, and I already have enough Nikon glass. Sorry, D2x or M8 is just too expensive for me to consider new. I still hope that Leica makes a go of the M8 though.
Nikon Bob
matt fury
06-02-2006, 03:16
I can't imagine having the cash for a M8 anytime in the not-so-near future. That being said, I hope and hope that the camera is done right, because it'll be nice to have the option available when I need it and can afford it.
boarini2003
06-02-2006, 03:19
Interesting to see a Leica Digital rangefinder, something I used to think was unthinkable. For all digital lovers out there, good for you, and if there ever was a digital camera to convert me, the m8 would be the one. The Leica M system is the world's prime tool for the use of 35mm. Somehow the thought of having a digital Leica rangefinder doesn't go well with my image of what the M system represents.
Question: How fast do you think it will depreciate? If you buy an MP, ten years later, it has retained it's value pretty darn well. What about an M8? What will it be worth in 10 years, a tenth?
The Audi A4 1.8 I bought in 1997 at some 27,000 Euros is now for sale at 2,000 and I can't find anyone willing to spent that much money on a car that old. Even if it has had a CLA recently and the engine has less then 80,000 km.
I don't think any camera will be worse in this regard.
OTOH, the house my father built in 1998 for some 200,000 Euro is now worth 350,000.
I dont think any camera will be better in this regard, either.
telenous
06-02-2006, 03:40
I 'm not so sure any more about the resale value of MP's, MP3's and what you haves, to be honest. If Leica users progressively jump ship for the newest offering then the second hand market will be flooded with film bodies. Something which, in the the medium- to long-term can only depreciate their value.
On the other hand I expect all lenses to hold up to their second-hand value, as they are not obsolete but rather retrofitted. Also consistent I believe with the freshly announced increase on the prices of the lenses.
As long as it is still taking as good a picture as the day I bought it, who cares? But that said, if digital technology advances so far in the next 10 years that a 10 megapixel 1.33 crop camera is worthless, what makes you think the film version will be worth anything? Not to start a digital versus film thing here, but the quality of pro digital at this point is certainly on par with film at equal sizes, and if it advances so much that today's technology is worthless, then film is going to be decidedly outclassed. Will people still use it? Probably. Hell, I probably will too, but it will not be because it provides a technically superior print...
Uncle Bill
06-02-2006, 03:48
If given the choice, I would rather have a black MP or M7 than the M8, digital rangefinder holds no interest for me. Now a Leica R8/R9 with the removable digital back, now that is interesting and expensive option if I ever win the lottery would look into. I doubt Leica is leaving the film business.
Bill
Now we only need somebody building a digital Canonet for $500 to use it as a backup or at late night parties :p
Nice thing about digital cameras depreciating quickly is that you no longer have to worry about that depreciation. You can just keep it, use it and abuse it until it's entirely worn out and defunct. Than, a decade or more later, you buy a new one. :)
From what I have read, the M8 will be the same size as the M7. Same physical dimensions. As far as megapixel wars, they are over. Now it is up to the manufacturers to refine what we have. 10-16 megapixels is more then enough for any any commercial usage. 8 can do in a pinch as well. My agencies have even lowered their file size requirements over the last year.
Leica is on the right track, but I wish it was full frame as well, and 12 megapixels not 10. I'll wait for a review until I plunk my money down.
I can't imagine having the cash for a M8 anytime in the not-so-near future. That being said, I hope and hope that the camera is done right, because it'll be nice to have the option available when I need it and can afford it.
Matt, you read my mind
The Audi A4 1.8 I bought in 1997 at some 27,000 Euros is now for sale at 2,000 and I can't find anyone willing to spent that much money on a car that old. Even if it has had a CLA recently and the engine has less then 80,000 km.
I don't think any camera will be worse in this regard.
OTOH, the house my father built in 1998 for some 200,000 Euro is now worth 350,000.
I dont think any camera will be better in this regard, either.
Socke,
Let's don't tie it with investment..
We get entertainment value out of a good car or a camera..
As long as it is still taking as good a picture as the day I bought it, who cares? But that said, if digital technology advances so far in the next 10 years that a 10 megapixel 1.33 crop camera is worthless, what makes you think the film version will be worth anything? Not to start a digital versus film thing here, but the quality of pro digital at this point is certainly on par with film at equal sizes, and if it advances so much that today's technology is worthless, then film is going to be decidedly outclassed. Will people still use it? Probably. Hell, I probably will too, but it will not be because it provides a technically superior print...
If the M8 is the only "pro" choice in digital RF in the next few years, the users will still be happy..
Just listen to those happy R-D1 owners now..
Socke,
Let's don't tie it with investment..
We get entertainment value out of a good car or a camera..
Don't forget the entertainment value of a bedroom or a bathroom with a big tub ;)
grantray
06-02-2006, 05:05
From what I have read, the M8 will be the same size as the M7. Same physical dimensions. As far as megapixel wars, they are over. Now it is up to the manufacturers to refine what we have. 10-16 megapixels is more then enough for any any commercial usage. 8 can do in a pinch as well. My agencies have even lowered their file size requirements over the last year.
Leica is on the right track, but I wish it was full frame as well, and 12 megapixels not 10. I'll wait for a review until I plunk my money down.
Agreed. Digi-backed Hassy's with 22 mega-pixels are capable of wall-sized prints with virtually NO noise when properly used. I've seen these types of prints in galleries down in Chelsea and they can be breathtaking. A ten mega-pixel camera with Leica or Zeiss glass should be capable of 22" prints.
I also think Leica will continue the MP line as a sister camera to the M8 just as it does now in regards to the M7.
-grant
Don't forget the entertainment value of a bedroom or a bathroom with a big tub ;)
Lucky that doesn't effect the resale value of your investment home..
and people compain an used camera with smells..
Back to the M8, other than Jorge, anyone is in for sure?
Ken Ford
06-02-2006, 05:17
I have great interest in a digital M, but will probably wait until a full-frame body is released.
I very much like the 1.5 crop on my DSLRs, but that's because I use them 95% of the time with teles. To me, an RF is a wide angle through short tele machine, and I don't want to give up the wide end.
I have to admit that I much prefer digital workflow over wet! That, and I've found I tend to be much more experimental with digital because I can chimp and adjust. I also tend to shoot 200% to 300% as much with digital due to the low cost per frame and not having to worry about roll changes at inopportune times.
Well, hummm. . . Interesting. I've always assumed that I will not be able to afford the digital m at $5K so the announcmnet to me is just sorta', intersting at best. But, to call it the M8 instead of the DM or similar is a real surprise.
My only concern about the new M8, is the chip is from Kodak, and we know how successful their pro cameras have been.......
Mark Norton
06-02-2006, 06:25
I'm in, No 2 at Robert White here in the UK.
you can buy new leica m7's here in china and hong kong for about 2500-2700 USD. Which is why I kind of laugh at the prices at say....KEH for a used M7 that is the same or just 100-200 dollars less then here. But then of course there is always the customs fees you would have to pay for there, actually being in China is the key to that little doozy.
I have no doubt that Leica will sell a boat load of M8 in China ... Chinese people have a strong obssession with the number 8 plus RMB is strong against almost all major currencies in the world. Well ... I'll wait another 5 or 6 years because my lucky number is 9 :D
I do wonder how well a digital camera will hold up in a couple of years... Would anyone consider buying a 8 year old digital camera? Not me, for sure.
Will you buy a six-month-old computer? :D
It's really funny how Kodak can't make a camera using their own chip. Unlike their cameras the Kodak chips have proven to be some of the best CCD's made. The highly regarded Leaf backs use Kodak chips and I think one or two of the others use them aswell.
For many shooters digital is of no savings over film but for a commercial studio like mine it does. Before I went digital nearly seven years ago I was spending roughly $90,000 per year on film, processing and polaroid. I now spend $30,000 - $40,000 per year on upgraded equipmement and now charge for image processing, retouching and color correction of raw files. It's a big savings and satisfies the client with quality and speed. Another bonus is clients like to review and check images as we shoot. This takes time and time is money to me. In the end there been quite a net gain for my studio.
Look at the demand for the high end digital gear. Canon can hardly keep up with demand for the 1DsMKII and the 1DMKII. New the 1DsII is $8,000 and is a fantastic camera. Also look at the success of the high end MF backs, a 22MP back without body cost around $27,000. I think Leica is banking on a portion of the PJ market going back to Leicas and the pro studio using them and I think they're right. Look at the equipment many amateurs have. I was in Wyoming a couple of years ago and the amateurs had more long L and ED glass than I've seen outside of a major sporting event. If the M8 performs well I think Leica has a real winner even at 1.33x.
Leaf backs use DALSA CCDs produced in Waterloo, Onatrio.
I'm in, No 2 at Robert White here in the UK.
People, we have 2!
Will there be any dedicated lens design for the chop factor?
Phase One backs (including the P45 39Mp) use Kodak CCDs, as do the Imacon backs and Betterlight scanning backs. Jenoptik has used Kodak in the past, but currently has joined Leaf in using Dalsa. Earlier Kodak DSLRs used Kodak sensors, and were well respected cameras. The last round of Kodak DSLRs used a CMOS sensor from FillFactory (not Kodak, how strange...)that was unusable at ISOs over 400. This camera was not a success, and ended Kodak's DSLR line.
Kodak (and Dalsa) medium format CCD sensors have a reputation for great color accuracy, subtle gradation and excellent dynamic range (reportedly better than any Canon or Nikon DSLR, I couldn't say from personal experience). Users of the DMR report the same attributes in the smaller Kodak sensor it uses. Kodak and Dalsa sensors don't provide the low noise at high ISO of a Canon DSLR sensor (although some DMR users claim ISO 1600, while noisier than Canon, is still perfectly acceptable).
WARNING, ENTERING SPECULATION MODE, WARNING. I expect the M8 won't have the high ISO performance of a Canon DSLR, but that said, it easily could provide better results (sufficent resolution, low noise, with superior color and dynamic range) at ISO 400 and lower. At 800 and 1600, it should be quite good, but expect Canon's low noise to provide noticibly cleaner images. I also expect these differences to be rather slim, and typically less important than ergonomics, audiable noise, lens requirements, or size and weight differences (any of which could push you to Canon, Nikon, Leica M8, or a film camera).
I'm looking forward to seeing results from this camera.
I have no doubt that Leica will sell a boat load of M8 in China ... Chinese people have a strong obssession with the number 8 plus RMB is strong against almost all major currencies in the world. Well ... I'll wait another 5 or 6 years because my lucky number is 9 :D
yeah, you should see how many resturants around here are named 666 and how many photographers you see wandering around with m6's....
either way though 40,000 RMB is a hell of a lot of money for a lot of people here. At a normal college here that is about....9-10 years tuition....or about 50 years salery for the typical person
Although this is great news, I'm not really interested. I simply can't afford it. I'd have to sell all of my film gear just to buy the body, and then I'd be stuck without lenses! Hopefully in a few years when I'm done with school and if the economy isn't a steaming pile of crap I'll be able to afford an M9 or M10 (depending on how quick they're making replacements). At that point I don't see why the camera wouldn't be what we all want-full frame, good high ISO performance, etc.
BTW, does anybody know how far we are from replaceable and upgradable sensors? Is this just a dream or could it actually be reality in the near future?
Will there be any dedicated lens design for the chop factor?
I believe I've read that Leica is not interested in making crop factor equivalents of lenses. This could have just been internet speculation, though, so hopefully someone can come through with a definitive answer.
Well, I sold my DMR gear a month or 2 ago cause I needed the dough and in anticipation of the M8. I figured that when the M8 was announced, I would not be able to get as much for the DMR as I could when it was the only Leica option. Having said that, I managed to take care of a few debts and put some aside for the M8.
petermcwerner
06-02-2006, 09:18
People, we have 2!
We now have 3
I just ordered mine from Tony Rose. It is faster to order in the US and have it sent back to Europe, as the US are served first by Leica. It was the same with the DMR
Peter
Irrelevant, have that anyways. Capable enough for 4000dpi scans, shuld handle a mere 10MPixel very well
No, I burn a CD and throw it in a shoebox which is stored in the cellar together with the shoeboxes full of negatives
When I buy a camera it will be used, there is no resale value left when I'm through with it :)
By now you should have realized how naive that sounds.
If you have a resource and you use it for a particular task you must attribute its costs to that task. Like a car, a computer and monitor break down after much use. If you are therefore using said resources to view and manipulate digital images, you have costs to calculate. The computers of digital photographers break down more quickly than those of normal users, especially the hard drives.
You might burn a cd but that takes 5 minutes. Time is money. Most people, however, purchase additional external drives to save their tens of thousands of images. So do you. You said so last year.
Finally, most people will be somewhat concerned about the resale value of a $5000 photographic investment. You are certainly not the norm.
By now you should have realized how naive that sounds.
If you have a resource and you use it for a particular task you must attribute its costs to that task. Like a car, a computer and monitor break down after much use. If you are therefore using said resources to view and manipulate digital images, you have costs to calculate. The computers of digital photographers break down more quickly than those of normal users, especially the hard drives.
You might burn a cd but that takes 5 minutes. Time is money. Most people, however, purchase additional external drives to save their tens of thousands of images. So do you. You said so last year.
Finally, most people will be somewhat concerned about the resale value of a $5000 photographic investment. You are certainly not the norm.
Kevin, what about film?
No cost? No time spent developing? No time spent printing?
At least i don't have to agitate a PC every minute while it is burning a CD :)
Edit: forgot the storage
I store my negs in binders, as I do with CDs and DVDs. Only difference is slightly more space needed for negs and no offsite backup.
I archive and index both in a database which is backed up daily.
The shoebox was just to illustrate that archiving and indexing is the same for both media.
Harry Lime
06-02-2006, 10:09
Also the Leica Digital M is now offically called the M8 for $4995.00 Black body only at this time. We are told that we will be receiving our first shipment by the second week in October. If you are interested, we are now taking deposits for our first delivery. At this time there are now seven firm slots in the Que.
Have a great Summer!
TR[/QUOTE]
Very interesting. Any word on how well the body is weather sealed?
thanks,
Harry Lime
Harry Lime
06-02-2006, 10:16
Here's a tip for you film guys: the quality of photography depends on the quality of the photographer, but on a technical basis, this camera is going to kick film's ass; this will be like owning a Leica medium format film camera. :D
JC[/QUOTE]
When they come out with a digital camera that has the exposure and tonal range of Tri-X, I'll consider switching.
But I am very happy that the M8 is a soon to be reality, since it certainly improves Leica's chances of long term survival. Also if I need to go a digital for professional reasons, I'll at least be able to get an M style camera. That's a very good thing indeed.
I think the M8 is great news, though I will not be in the line for it when it hits the market. First I need to find out whether I can live with a full digital workflow, that is, get inkjet printing to my satisfaction (from a quality and cost perspective).
I think I will start saving actually, that way I will be able to afford it about 3 years from now...;)
/Håkan
grantray
06-02-2006, 10:40
By now you should have realized how naive that sounds.
If you have a resource and you use it for a particular task you must attribute its costs to that task.
Not naive at all. I personally work in advertising design. I have dual 2.5 G5 Mac, twin 21" monitors, a 350gb G-Raid external hard-drive, printer, scanner, and a full set of professional software. None of which can be included as cost towards my personal digital photography processing were I to purchase an M8.
Computers and printers are standard household items for many according to their profession. Your use of attribution is faulty logic, as I had the majority of this equipment, for the purposes of my career, before I bought my D2. That my gear can process and print effortlessly if I choose to buy a digital camera is moot.
If I have the money when the M8 hits displays, I'm definitely buying.
-grant
Peter welcome to the forum. please be sure to update us on info you hear about the M8 in Europe. You have been a good resource in the past.
Thanks
We now have 3
3 1/2.
I'm on the waiting list at my favourite dealer. It's not a pre-order actually, as the pricing isn't announced yet (at least in Germany).
People asked about lenses...my Leica rep told me that there would be a 15-18-21 tri-elmar. He did not know much about it at the time, other than it was in the works. I am not sure whether it will be digital only, but I think they said they were not interested in digital only, so I would imagine it is for film as well. No word on price.
hey, i still haven't heard if this thing has weather sealing or not.
hey, i still haven't heard if this thing has weather sealing or not.
Weather sealing? Why? I take my R-D1 out in the rain, and I don't think that one has weather sealing. I just shoot the dang thing.
shutterflower
06-02-2006, 13:20
Weather sealing? Why? I take my R-D1 out in the rain, and I don't think that one has weather sealing. I just shoot the dang thing.
For $5000+, I'd want it to be as built as the M7.
John Camp
06-02-2006, 14:55
I sent a deposit to Tony Rose a month ago. If I don't get an early version, he better have somebody else start his car in the morning...
A guy who sells a very large number of Leicas (not Tony Rose) told me a month ago that there would be a 17mm lens (not a 15mm or a tri-elmar) released with the camera. Could have been hot air, but he was pretty confident.
JC
As for the weather sealing, I doubt there will be any specific weather sealing. None of the other M's have it, nor do any of the lenses, so it would not do all that much. I think if you are going to shoot in the rain you either have to be a bit careful, and only take it out when you are going to take a shot, or use a rain cover (plastic bag). I will say that it is a lot easier to make a weather sealed camera system when you have auto-focus lenses with internal focusing. The problem with the M lenses and weather sealing is that none are internal focusing, and thus they are pretty much going to be susceptible to leakage from the outside.
What do we call it? "The DigiM8"?
Funny! One for the license plate!
:)
LOL rover!. Actually you can get two M7s for that. Right now I think I'd rather have the M7s.May I ask where I can get all those cheap Leicas? I could set up a business buying M7s for $2500 and selling 12% under list at 3000 Euro here.May I ask where I can get all those cheap Leicas? I could set up a business buying M7s for $2500 and selling 12% under list at 3000 Euro here.Used, who buys new Leicas?Volker & Ralph, I was patient and got lucky at the same time. :) First one came from Australia with 3 rolls of film through it and 2 years of a gray market warranty (from HK) at $2350. Second was brand new; a USA Passport sold through eBay for $2250 and a free Leicavit from Leica further lowered the cost. :) Both cams were bought in the second half of last year.
Not exactly a good business model but you can get them comparatively cheap if you are patient and stick to your price ceilings. ;)
Bertram2
06-02-2006, 16:16
I'm going to wait 6 months until the M8 is obsolete and pick one up used for $800
Considering the innovation cycles of Leica I'd say you better forget this plan. Don't know how old you are, if older than 30 it could be you are dead 'til the M9 comes ! :D :D
bertram
Bertram2
06-02-2006, 16:55
Here's a tip for you film guys: the quality of photography depends on the quality of the photographer, but on a technical basis, this camera is going to kick film's ass; this will be like owning a Leica medium format film camera. :D
JC
Photos aren't made with megapixels. So here's a tip for you digi guy : Who kicks which ass will turn out at the earliest ( there also are other deficits left to fix) when the first chip is out with 12 stops dynamic range instead of the poor 8 they still have now. Until then the ass kicking is rather the other way round . :D
Bertram
Ken Ford
06-02-2006, 17:11
People asked about lenses...my Leica rep told me that there would be a 15-18-21 tri-elmar...
Now *that's* interesting!
Photos aren't made with megapixels. So here's a tip for you digi guy : Who kicks which ass will turn out at the earliest ( there also are other deficits left to fix) when the first chip is out with 12 stops dynamic range instead of the poor 8 they still have now. Until then the ass kicking is rather the other way round . :D
Bertram
Bertram, the 12 stop colour film capable of ISO1600 has yet to be invented. Don't throw slow B/W into the equation :-)
My stoneage D60 is much better at ISO800 than every slide film I've ever seen.
In fact, Leica has been changed a lot and they're pretty quick now at introducing new products ... I've heard some rumours from Japan that at one time they were even talking about exchange share holdings with Matsu****a, I wouldn't be (too) surprised to see (with the help from some Japanese and German gizmo houses) the M9 and R10 in no later than 3 years.
Bertram2
06-02-2006, 17:53
Bertram, the 12 stop colour film capable of ISO1600 has yet to be invented. Don't throw slow B/W into the equation :-)
My stoneage D60 is much better at ISO800 than every slide film I've ever seen.
Volker,
colourfilm has 10stops at least , the latest multilayer films even more, up to 12.
You don' t get that with your DSLR, neither at 100 nor at 1600. No chip exceeds the slide range of 7,5 , best case 8,5 stops. Foveon is said to have up to 9.
Your stone age D60 maybe has less grain ( or noise), but not more dynamic range, which soley concerns the darkest and the brightest part of the photo. Nothing else..
Just take the D60 out in the bright sunlight and shoot a scenery with 12 stops contrast, and you will see it.
And why should I leave out B&W ? That is a decisive point for me ! Without B&W it's all nothing. :)
bertram
Random thoughts on the Leica Digital M8:
- Five grand is cheap for a bass boat. (finished prints and fish = $1,000/pound)
- Also cheap for a Harley Davidson.
- Ditto a big plasma flat screen tv.
- Just what I need to shoot soft core snaps of my super model mistress perched on the hood of my Porsche.
- Wasn't that long ago that the chief geek at work actually bought a round of drinks, celebrating the fact that he had a gigabyte of storage under his control.
- Paid good money for a digicam. Now my son's cell phone has a better one built in.
- "Where are the pictures?"
- More damn batteries to worry about.
- Would it be as much fun as my Minox?
- Will the Russians make a copy?
- Like muzzle loaders, a separate season for film?
- I'm an old engineer. I can design stuff with a sharp stick and some smooth dirt.
- When some kid asks "Is that a digital?" you can say "Why, yes it is, 10 megapixels!"
- Will you be able to get purple lizzard leather for it?
3 1/2.
I'm on the waiting list at my favourite dealer. It's not a pre-order actually, as the pricing isn't announced yet (at least in Germany).
I sent a deposit to Tony Rose a month ago. If I don't get an early version, he better have somebody else start his car in the morning...
We now have, 4 & 1/2
I will post the HK price once I heard it.
John,
Why not start with Tony's horse first?
http://www.kropserkel.com/Images/stuffdecember2004.jpg
We now have, 4 & 1/2
I will post the HK price once I heard it.
John,
Why not start with Tony's horse first?
http://www.kropserkel.com/Images/stuffdecember2004.jpg
Will,
Smart money doesn't speak - it just acts. ;)
15-18-21 tri elmar?
with a 1.3 crop factor is equivalent to 19.5 - 23.4 - 27.3, aren't the focal lenghts a bit close together?
Then what, a 12-13-14 tri elmar?
However it may be a little more useful with my RD-1: 22.5 - 27 - 31.5 equivalent
You forgot the .03...1.33 give you 19.95 (20mm), 23.94 (24mm) and 27.93 (28mm). Essentially exactly the same as the current lens lineup. So close in fact, that you will be able to use the current varifocal viewfinder to give you the FOV of the lens.
rolleistef
06-03-2006, 05:18
all talking of a camera that does not exist yet and no body has seen... or is there a prototype? I guess they'll release it for the Kina...
You forgot the .03...1.33 give you 19.95 (20mm), 23.94 (24mm) and 27.93 (28mm). Essentially exactly the same as the current lens lineup. So close in fact, that you will be able to use the current varifocal viewfinder to give you the FOV of the lens.
You are right, still the focal lenghts look awfully close to me for a tri-elmar I mean the longest focal lenght is still only 1.4 times the shortest one, the current tri-elmar goes from wide to normal 28-35-50 and that looks a much more useful spread.
Mark Norton
06-03-2006, 05:29
I think there will be renewed interest in the existing Tri-Elmar - instead of very wide, wide, normal, it will be wide, normal, short tele.
There is a need to go wider than the 21mm which suggests a 15mm to compete with the Zeiss and one to fill the gap, say 18mm, which would then the the 21 and 24 equivalent. All very expensive if you want any speed, and I don't think any of us would want less than f2.8. Just look at the huge leap in cost of the Zeiss 15mm.
I would be surprised if it (the 15-18-21) was any faster than f/4. I would imagine that it would be huge if it were a 2.8. Has anyone seen the Zeiss 15mm? It is a monster. Not very heavy, but quite large.
With no specs available what are you all tallking about? I waited to see the digital back for the leica R8/9 and i'm glad i did for as far as i'm concerned it was a failure, and that even gives me more reason to "wait and see" with the M8. I love my M3 and have for 40 years and i love my R8 but Leicas 1st venture into digital has shown me anything, if it can't surpase my film cameras who needs it. I have a high end dslr and it does the job, just not quick enough so i will invest in the new D200 so i can still use the same lenses and use my Kodak for studio use only. My M i still use for street photography, can't beat it with a collapsible lense i go places and shoot where i shouldn't because it just hides under my jacket and no one hears it!
I would be surprised if it (the 15-18-21) was any faster than f/4. I would imagine that it would be huge if it were a 2.8. Has anyone seen the Zeiss 15mm? It is a monster. Not very heavy, but quite large.
At f2.8 it would be a tri-elmarit not a tri-elmar
Gabriel M.A.
06-03-2006, 18:17
No offense meant but if your style of photography is one where a DSLR is even a consideration I wonder why you would use a RF in the first place. A DSLR has zero attraction for me.
No offense meant, but, zzzzzzz
always always the same blah blah blah I read whenever something about Leica and/or digital vs. film is mentioned.
If you drink water, why even consider drinking milk? If you use a fork, why do you bother buying spoons? If you have a car, why would you consider having a bicycle? If you see blue, why bother seeing purple?
All the signs of short-sightedness. My digital and film rangefinders, SLRs, 35mm, medium format, Graflex, Polaroid, etc. are in good company with me, and I with them.
The world speaks more than one language. There are photographers that have a more enlightened view of photography beyond brand-names and formats.
And back on topic, off the "here's why I don't like what you like" pontificata ad nauseaum. I will do my research very carefully before committing to a $5K deal. The Leica DMR started at about $4K and is now over that, and they did a good job with it, except it was not my cup of tea considering that I'm spoiled by Canon CMOS sensors, when it comes to high ISO noise handling.
If the "M8" can deal with noise at ISO 400-1600 just like Canon has been able to, then it's sold. That's what I have my Leica rangefinder for: available light photography. If they don't meet that criteria, then the crop factor won't even make it to the table.
Vetteran
06-03-2006, 19:18
It would be nice to see some real specs.
retrocam
06-04-2006, 08:13
Geez...5k for the digital M/M8 is just too much for me. :(
I wish Leica would release a version of the digital M that's targetted for the hobbyist or advanced amateur crowd that'll cost much less; something like what the Rebel XT or 30D is to Canon. That way, Leica could get more photo enthusiasts to try their old/new lenses and eventually their whole line. I mean, not all Leicaphiles are pros who are going to get some return on investment from their pics... :(
>>==Annie=>
It's actually the hobbyists who are the ones more likely to spend the money on it. Most pros will probably not be able to justify it from a business perspective, so they will either not buy it, or buy it as a "personal camera". I'd be interested to hear what kind of return Leica will make on each M8 at 4995, because frankly, I don't think it will be a lot at all. The cost of R&D, combined with very high manufacturing costs (low production run, high labor costs, high quality parts), the need to pay other companies (Kodak and Jenoptik) to do part of the design or for parts, along with the pathetically weak dollar suggest to me that they are selling this as inexpensively as they can. Think about it, it only costs 1700 dollars more than a standard M7. For that money they have to be able to put in a 10 megapixel sensor, completely redesign the shutter and advance assembly, put on a large LCD, come up with a completely different battery and power assembly, redo the viewfinder so that the framelines automatically adjust to the sensor crop, add some sort of lens information gathering system in the mount....and that is just what we know about.
The EOS 1DsMkII costs a lot more than 1700 dollars more than the 1vs, and likewise, the Nikon D series cost more than 1700 dollars more than the F6...
Stuart: OT, but I just saw your website and your images are wonderful!
Thanks ywenz! I appreciate that a lot.
Bertram2
06-04-2006, 09:16
I wish Leica would release a version of the digital M that's targetted for the hobbyist or advanced amateur crowd that'll cost much less;
>>==Annie=>
For those there is the used stuff. THAT is the entry level product idea of the Leica marketing.
Maybe a digital ZI will come closer to your budget.
bertram
but there hasnt been ever a whisper of a digital ikon... but I do think that when the m8 drops, getting used rd1s will become a bit cheaper, maybe prices for most used leicas will fall too. at least I hope so, maybe I could get myself a nice christmas present!
Harry Lime
06-04-2006, 16:09
>It's actually the hobbyists who are the ones more likely to spend the money on it. Most pros will >probably not be able to justify it from a business perspective, so they will either not buy it, or >buy it as a "personal camera"
A lot of hobbyists will buy the M8, but that's always been the case with pro cameras. Many more 'amateurs' bought the Canon 1v, than professionals who are simply out numbered.
That said there is a real need for a high quality digital M camera among professionals. Cameras like the 1D II and 2Dx are huge and attract a lot of attention.
I recently attended a seminar and Gary Knight of the VII agency was telling us how he ended up taking his Leicas instead of his big Canon rigs on a shoot about elephant poaching in Africa. He couldn't get a permit from the government to shoot and wanted to be unobtrusive and look like a tourist. The big SLR screamed journalist, where as most people think the M is a point and shoot.
Actually, I think that niche is largely being filled by prosumer point and shoots or the small digital rebels and d70s. Look at Alex Majoli with the olympus point and shoots...I am not saying that there won't be pros who will use the M8 for this sort of thing (in fact, I think you are right in that there will be some migration back to rangefinders by a certain type of pro), but I don't think the gap is that large, otherwise Canon or Nikon would have filled it by now.
but there hasnt been ever a whisper of a digital ikon...
I'm not sure I'd agree with that. Not much talk lately but when it first came out there was a bit of speculation put forth that with the re-design of the Zeiss lens from their G-system counter parts it was felt that the reason may have been to work better with digital sensors.
I would not be surprised if we see an announcement of a digital Ikon within the next 6 months or so.
Harry Lime
06-05-2006, 06:48
Actually, I think that niche is largely being filled by prosumer point and shoots or the small digital rebels and d70s. Look at Alex Majoli with the olympus point and shoots..
Yeah, I read that article, but at the end of the day a Olympus p&s is no Leica M. I know that, that isn't stopping Majoli from winning awards with his Olympus gear, but given the choice I think most people would prefer the Leica.
.I am not saying that there won't be pros who will use the M8 for this sort of thing (in fact, I think you are right in that there will be some migration back to rangefinders by a certain type of pro), but I don't think the gap is that large, otherwise Canon or Nikon would have filled it by now.
I think the market would be too small for Canon/Nikon to care about. I certainly can't imagine Canon even seeing the need for a RF. They are so far down the automated SLR road that they aren't even putting aperture dials on their lenses anymore. There is no connection to their past.
Maybe Nikon would consider it. The SP is a legend among their crowd and heritage is a big deal at the company.
Mark Norton
06-05-2006, 08:06
And nor are Nikon - putting aperture rings on their lenses. For years, the metering has only worked for many lenses if you set any manual aperture ring to minimum.
Interesting announcement and I'm glad to see Leica finally getting their digital RF out. Because the price is still far more than I'm willing to spend on a camera, any camera, I don't think I'll be adding an M8 to the collection. It would give me huge bragging rights amongst the photo buffs at work, though. :D
boilerdoc2
06-07-2006, 12:15
Can't get his website to open up! Must be swamped with orders!
call him. 805-492-6548 :)
Tony Rose
06-10-2006, 08:04
The news is out!
Go to:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0606/06061001leicamdlenses.asp
TR
They were a little late with the news :)
Bob Ross
06-10-2006, 08:45
The news is out!
Go to:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0606/06061001leicamdlenses.asp
TR
A comment on the Leica Customer forum said that a Leica rep said this info was to be embargoed until July 1st, but was released early due to the leak out of Europe. The rep also said that the name was most likey going to be MD.
Tony, what is your take on the comment on Photonet, that a UK dealer said that supplies would be short and that those not preordering might have to wait into 2008. This would certainly impact those of us who want to know more about what we are buying, before committing. Wait to see what it is and then commit and wait a year to get it... :( Your opinion as a dealer would be much appreciated.
Gabriel M.A.
06-10-2006, 09:14
95 Euros for the upgrade? I can live with that. 1.33 crop factor? That makes this worth considering, but not 100% sure; in two years many advances could be made in sensor technology, and I'm hoping then there will be an M9 with a 1:1 sensor.
I am watching. The question now is...do I send my dear dear lenses now?
Mark Norton
06-10-2006, 09:57
Well of course there has already been a Leica MD, even though it was hardly main-stream. Perhaps they want to keep the numbering for film cameras though it's tough to know what a film-only M8 would add to the M7 and how Leica could possibly justify its development.
95 Euros for the upgrade? I can live with that. 1.33 crop factor? That makes this worth considering, but not 100% sure; in two years many advances could be made in sensor technology, and I'm hoping then there will be an M9 with a 1:1 sensor.
I am watching. The question now is...do I send my dear dear lenses now?
But how many years between the M8 and the M9? Does anyone foresee Leica allowing for the M8 to be upgraded in the future, once sensor technologies change? If not, what is the time difference between models? 5 - 10 years, if not longer? I would hope that by 2011 Leica has a full frame sensor in the M9. What is that going to do for the resale value of the M8? 5 years from now, I'm hoping that my MP is still worth some money, unlike my Canon D30 which is now worth 10% of the original price.
-Paul
I think resale value for digital Liecas will be a thing of the past. Thank g*d! Now we mere mortals can own a digital Leica in a couple of years too. :)
Mark Norton
06-11-2006, 09:29
You can live in hope that secondhand M8s will be available for the price of a coffee in an Amsterdam "brown cafe", but I think you'll be waiting a while. The digital M is going to open up a whole new world for M photography and I'd be surprised if there were significant numbers available secondhand. An M9 is many years away.
im waiting for the ziess ikon digital offering, I got my fingers crossed that it will be full frames and a hell of a lot cheaper then the leica
What made you think that a FF DRF with Zeiss brand would be "hell of a lot cheaper" than Leica M8?
Damn!
If the high ISO (800 to 1600) performance of the M8 is on the same level with my 5D, I will sell my 5D and all that attaches to it; period.
If the high ISO (800 to 1600) performance of the M8 is on the same level with my 5D, I will sell my 5D and all that attaches to it; period.
Probably it will be slightly noisier; CCD chips are not as polished as CMOS in that respect. But CCD gives a more film-like result and more grain-like noise, in short less of the "digital-look".
But don't forget you will be able to use faster lenses and to hand-hold it at slower speeds. ISO 200 on the Leica will be equivalent in use to at least ISO 800 on the Canon, maybe even 1600.
ISO 200 on the Leica will be equivalent in use to at least ISO 800 on the Canon, maybe even 1600.
Can you tell me what do you mean by your statement?
5D+35/f1.4L @ ISO 800 vs. M8+??/f?? @ ISO 200 ?? :confused:
canonetc
06-13-2006, 23:11
Funny but useless idea: the M8 should not have a preview screen. Thus, the aesthetic of appreciatiing the art/action of photography will take precedence over immediate gratification. You won't know your decisive moment until you open the computer/laptop. Aw shucks; why have one then...?
Hopeful ideas: Sensor should be full frame, 12 MB with RAW, with a TRUE BW format (no loss of information when you convert) as well as color. Accepts Compact flash and Smart Cards. Will be as rugged and durable as an M3 or 6. Can shoot at 2fps...or maybe 3.
More useless ideas: Will have wireless and instant download transmitter to your laptop or special Leica Portable 250GB drive (suggested retail $2000). Special models will come in Platinum, signed posthumously by HCB. (Hmmmm...how will they do that...?). Or his daughter. Sebastiao Salgado model comes in Amazonian Birch. Has automatic fan inside to detect and keep dust off the sensor. Will accept screw-mount lenses; sensors will be added for a mere sum of $500 each. Each sensor, that is. Will come with a five year warranty, but not supported by dropping, kicking, rain, floods, war, battles, theft or remarket on Ebay. Will have a special warning chip to alert Leitz when posted on Ebay for less than the retail price.
Leica Swat Teams will decend on habitat, photograph and arrest offender. Has a double-stroke winder (just for the fun of it).
And finally, will have a special rebate of $1.00.
Cheers,
Chris
canonetc
And yes I'd love one too..... :)
Mark Norton
06-13-2006, 23:31
We know the sensor is 1.33, 10 and a bit MP, different sensor from the DMR.
It's likely that Leica are having to jump through hoops to get 1.33 to work with their style of lens design, so FF is, for the time being, out of the question.
People here bitch about the cost of the thing and even if a full frame sensor could work, the cost would be substantially more; there would also need to be more memory, higher clock speeds and shorter battery life. Imagine the bitching then.
FF is not going to happen anytime soon and anyone who thinks a company 1/50 the size of Nikon can carry it off is in La-La land. Personally, I'm more than pleased that the M concept is being reworked for digital and cannot wait for the launch. My travel to Photokina on 26 September is booked.
Can you tell me what do you mean by your statement?
5D+35/f1.4L @ ISO 800 vs. M8+??/f?? @ ISO 200 ?? :confused:
He's probably referring to handholdability at slower shutter speeds.
Like 5d+35/1.4, ISO800, 1/30 vs. M8+35/1.4, ISO200, 1/8th.
He's probably referring to handholdability at slower shutter speeds.
Like 5d+35/1.4, ISO800, 1/30 vs. M8+35/1.4, ISO200, 1/8th.
With the same amount of camera shake due to the different ergonomics. Thank you Volker :)
Trading motion blur against camera shake :)
Trading motion blur against camera shake :)
Motion blur is a photographic symbol and creative element, camera shake a symptom of delirium tremens. :p
Just had a shiver of delicious anticipation when I suddenly realized that by selling my M7 and one lens, I could afford the M8 body.
(Get a Bessa R2x for film while I wait for the M8 to arrive.)
'Course, I'll burn another grand to upgrade my photo computer with LOTS more storage. Probably a faster processor too.
Hey, this could work! Hmmm...
chrisweeks
07-17-2006, 10:52
thanks tony ...
now i'm going to have to allocate $5K for a new camera!
*runs off to email tony*
Motion blur is a photographic symbol and creative element, camera shake a symptom of delirium tremens. :p
there is no substitute for low shutter speed. Motion blur is a bitch, and sometimes only a clean high-iso image is the solution...
there is no substitute for low shutter speed. Motion blur is a bitch, and sometimes only a clean high-iso image is the solution...
Dunno-somebody once sold me a tripod..It might stop self-induced motion blur..Superglue seems to work for the subject... It must be at the bottom of my cupboard somewhere...:D
What about a version with a true b&w sensor? I know next to nothing about CCD technology, but skipping the colour filter would perhaps give advantages (noise, resolution). The pictures in the rangefinder/Leica M legacy and tradition is mostly b&w anyway.
There has been speculation about that on this forum, but in the end the conclusion seemed to be that the advantages would probably not warrant the hassle.Your advantages would be realistic, but for one thing more resolution than 10 MP is not very relevant and the noise issue was not much of a problem for any but the most die-hard digitalists. On the downside it would reduce the usability of the camera (even a B&W shooter might want to do some colour work from time to time), and shooting in colour does give the option of converting to black and white using the colour channels, thus giving full control over contrast and gradation, like applying colour-filters.
DaveKennedy
08-20-2006, 09:36
I'll wait to buy one used, as long as it's newspaper usable at 1600ASA
...oh, it's a CCD...well that really is too bad... then the noise will be terrible even for newspaper work.
ill wait for the full framed one so I can use my 35 cron the way it was ment to be used
plus 5000 is just way too expensive, I think knocking at least 2000 off that price would be a little more resonable....
I dunno, a 1.3x crop sounds like a great compromise if they somehow let you use like a 40mm for a 50 and such. Have to see what like comes up with.
On the other hand: why would you think the M8 would be $500 cheaper than the film body? The digital versions are ALWAYS more.
Include into the calculation the following hidden costs for digital:
Price of PC system and all required software
Time spent catagorizing, archiving and processing digital images
Rapid depreciation of camera
[more unknown hidden costs]
The first one can be big… but for me, as a heavy user of DSLRs… not an issue. The second however is really no different from film. I have binders and slide cases… all organized. However I could have rapidly found one slide I was looking for if digital. Granted, none of my film is going away soon:)
Okay, now my actual quandaries…
Will the M8 use 14 bit or 16 bit color? 16 bit would make it a lot more sellable.
Will it have any body sealing? A normal M doesn’t need it, you take out the battery. This guy does need it. Not really worried about the lenses: they have NOTHING to fry. But the camera… should at least have moisture and dust sealing. And if they can get their friends at Panny to talk to Oly… grab the supersonic wave at the same time.
Since none of their digital cameras I know of (don’t know on the DMR) have had the 3 year passport warranty… will this one?
...oh, it's a CCD...well that really is too bad... then the noise will be terrible even for newspaper work.
Have you checked the noise-at-ISO-1600 thread on the R-D 1 forum? That's a CCD too, and a lot of us find there's not much problem. The dance-concert publicity photos I send to newspapers routinely run at as much as four-column size, and the editors must not have any complaints about the noise, since they keep using 'em...
Have you checked the noise-at-ISO-1600 thread on the R-D 1 forum? That's a CCD too, and a lot of us find there's not much problem. The dance-concert publicity photos I send to newspapers routinely run at as much as four-column size, and the editors must not have any complaints about the noise, since they keep using 'em...
Well, being newspapers don't need 10 megapixels normally... you can down size and reduce noise (if you need to). However if you are spot on for exposure, even the 3 year old Olympus E-1's small sensor is fine with ISO 1600. Plus, for very little money you can grab Noise Nija or some competitor and all of a sudden... you can go another stop...
greggebhardt
08-24-2006, 07:53
Yep, it is official. There will be a 4 to 5 % icrease on Leica M lenses and Leica Sport Optics. The M and R cameras along with A La Carte program will not go up until the first of January 2007. :bang:
Also the Leica Digital M is now called the M8 for an unofficial estimate at $4995.00 Black body only at this time. We are told that we will be receiving our first shipment by the second to fourth week in October. If you are interested, we are now taking deposits for our first delivery. At this time there are now 15 firm slots in the Queue.
Have a great Summer!
TR
Hi Tony,
My check for the M8 deposit is heading your way! God's Speed Leica!:angel:
shutterflower
08-24-2006, 08:40
Price increase. . . not surprising. Leica isn't in the business of gear for the average shooter. What's annoying about this is that we pay $$$$ for a Leica camera because it will last forever and is a mechanically beautiful thing. Pricing the m8 at $5k. . . .it's not going to last a lifetime. It won't even last 10 years - and the technology will become obsolete in even shorter time.
This price is illogical from a consumer POV, but Leica knows their market!
Rich Silfver
08-24-2006, 09:12
Price increase. . . not surprising. Leica isn't in the business of gear for the average shooter. What's annoying about this is that we pay $$$$ for a Leica camera because it will last forever and is a mechanically beautiful thing. Pricing the m8 at $5k. . . .it's not going to last a lifetime. It won't even last 10 years - and the technology will become obsolete in even shorter time.
This price is illogical from a consumer POV, but Leica knows their market!
Why is the price 'illogical'?
Looking at it from a dollar point of view I can understand the comment, From Euroland it looks not too bad. Maybe we can say that the international moneymarket is illogical from a consumer's point of view.
shutterflower
08-24-2006, 09:22
Why is the price 'illogical'?
I thought that is what I said.
Illogical because we pay for the longevity and fine quality (one in the same) of the Leica. The nature of digital is not longevity (at least, not in the sense that the technology is stable). You buy a mechanical Leica and it is as good now as it will be in 50 years. It may even be better in 50 years. You buy an M8, and it will be obsolete in 10 years (easily), and obsoletion of technology sometimes creates maintenance problems down the line. You may not find a person who can work on the M8 20 years from now. You will always find mechanics that know mechanical Leicas.
My point is that they are charging alot for the item when it lacks the single most vital and defining Leica characteristic. Sure, you get a good deal of that $$$$ back since you won't be shooting film, but is that really a good reason to charge an arm and a leg for a camera?
I just think they are about $2500 high on the price. Relative to other cameras on the market, it may well be 'worth' $5k, but outside of relativity, I doubt it.
I guess I would see putting $5k into classic M gear as an investment in the future. You buy a good camera once, and it is your camera for the rest of your life if you treat it well. That is not the case with the M8. The technology simply will not remain as it is. 20 years from now, your 10MP images will not compare with those produced via technology not even dreamt of yet.
Body (equivalent to M7) = $3000,--, sensor and electronics = $ 1500,--
profit = $ 500,--
What is illogical with that? It would be rather more illogical to take a 2000 $ loss on each camera sold, would you not agree?
shutterflower
08-24-2006, 09:28
I get that point. It is more expensive to produce than the classic ms. But from the consumer POV. . . well, I guess maybe the film/processing cost does help knock the camera cost down a bit.
John Camp
08-24-2006, 09:29
Things are worth what somebody will pay for them. I don't think they'll have a lot of trouble sellling M8s. And a Canon sells for $7,000...
JC
I get that point. It is more expensive to produce than the classic ms. But from the consumer POV. . . well, I guess maybe the film/processing cost does help knock the camera cost down a bit.
I understand your chagrin. I'm not happy at parting with 4000 Euro's either, and my wife even less so:p , but then, I cannot help myself. GAS and all that kind of thing:bang: :bang: On the other hand, I keep telling myself that it will be the last camera I'll ever buy (hollow laugh-but it helps:D )
at this rate, leica will lose its high resale value as the gap widens between what leica charges for new gear and what people will pay on the second hand market.
That is nothing new. If you buy a mint M6 for 1100 Euro now, that is about
1/3rd of a new MP.
Rich Silfver
08-24-2006, 11:27
I get that point. It is more expensive to produce than the classic ms. But from the consumer POV. . . well, I guess maybe the film/processing cost does help knock the camera cost down a bit.
Sorry but you're not making a whole lot of sense. What does the consumer's point of view have to do with the pricing being illogical?
There are other cameras out there priced below - and above - the price point that Leica is coming out at. They produce very high quality products for customers that can combine wanting/needing them with the means of acquiring them. Producing a Leica MP/M7 is NOT as cheap as it is to produce a Bessa. Different products have different prices. What is illogical about it?
And 'film/processing cost' does not 'help knock the camera cost down' it reduces the total cost of ownership. The camera still costs the same.
Harry Lime
08-24-2006, 12:17
I'll wait to buy one used, as long as it's newspaper usable at 1600ASA
...oh, it's a CCD...well that really is too bad... then the noise will be terrible even for newspaper work.
Nikon uses a CCD in a lot of their cameras and they are doing just fine shooting newspaper work.
Harry Lime
08-24-2006, 12:19
Price increase. . . not surprising. Leica isn't in the business of gear for the average shooter. What's annoying about this is that we pay $$$$ for a Leica camera because it will last forever and is a mechanically beautiful thing. Pricing the m8 at $5k. . . .it's not going to last a lifetime. It won't even last 10 years - and the technology will become obsolete in even shorter time.
This price is illogical from a consumer POV, but Leica knows their market!
Have you taken a look at energy prices and the dollar to euro exchange rate, lately?
shutterflower
08-24-2006, 12:21
Sorry but you're not making a whole lot of sense. What does the consumer's point of view have to do with the pricing being illogical?
There are other cameras out there priced below - and above - the price point that Leica is coming out at. They produce very high quality products for customers that can combine wanting/needing them with the means of acquiring them. Producing a Leica MP/M7 is NOT as cheap as it is to produce a Bessa. Different products have different prices. What is illogical about it?
And 'film/processing cost' does not 'help knock the camera cost down' it reduces the total cost of ownership. The camera still costs the same.
just forget it, Rich.
Harry Lime
08-24-2006, 12:23
Can you tell me what do you mean by your statement?
5D+35/f1.4L @ ISO 800 vs. M8+??/f?? @ ISO 200 ?? :confused:
I think what he is getting at is that most people shoot a slow zoom on their DSLR and of course there the old shutter/mirror bounce factor, although I must say that the mirror in my 5d and the 1D series is very smooth.
shutterflower
08-24-2006, 12:23
And 'film/processing cost' does not 'help knock the camera cost down' it reduces the total cost of ownership. The camera still costs the same.
seriously...
The cost of the camera spread over a year's time - you buy a film camera and factor in the costs of using it, it comes out to about the same as the M8 if you shoot alot of film...
for us poor people, such calculations are mainstream.
shutterflower
08-24-2006, 12:28
Things are worth what somebody will pay for them. I don't think they'll have a lot of trouble sellling M8s. And a Canon sells for $7,000...
JC
yeah, I guess my thing is that these digital cameras are simply ludicrous prices. Perhaps they are priced according to manufacturing cost and what the market will take, but they are still pretty horribly pricey for what you get.
shutterflower
08-24-2006, 12:31
Am I really an idiot for thinking $5000 is too much for a camera that isn't full frame (so won't be totally ideal for your lens lineup), won't last forever, and won't be easily reparied 20 years from now?
Maybe I am.
Maybe this is why I have yet to really jump into digital after the Nikon experience scared me off.
shutterflower
08-24-2006, 12:48
I think Stephanie's writings hit some of the main points :
http://mentalexperimental.org/?p=26
particularly the line about obsoletion.
michael.panoff
08-24-2006, 12:49
has anyone considered the margins on a Leica.. film or digital.. I bet they are enormous. Far larger than Nikon or Canon. Part of the luxury business, any luxury business.. be it watches, cars, clothes, etc.. is the mega margins. A Lecia has always been marketed as a luxury item, the rolex (when rolex used to mean something) of cameras.
You're paying for the workmanship/design.. but more so the brand and all the exclusivity that goes along with it. Besides, it's in their best interest to keep costs down, I bet most of the electronics are out-sourced (from China).. I'd wouldn't be suprised if the margins are even higher on the M8, than previous film bodies. There's probably a lot less human involved calibration and fiddling around with tiny mechanical parts, during final assembly.. probably in Germany. Cheaper labor costs + cheap out-sourced electronics + higher retail price = huge margins
one more point.. at least when you bought a mechanical lecia, you knew some highly trained craftsman assemebled and calibrated the amazing little machine... much less the case with the digital M... look at the flip side, the M8 will probably make a boat-load of money for Leica, and hopefully revive the rangefinder business at large.
Mark Norton
08-24-2006, 13:16
Definitely more heat than light on this thread.
I am sorry that you think the M8 is overpriced. Here in Europe, as Jaap has said, the price seems quite reasonable and the reason it seems a lot in dollar terms is because of the weakness of the dollar caused by a Government unwilling to sort out the budget and trade deficits.
For me, the M8 is a bargain, I'm buying two, and if they are worth nothing in a year, that's fine, I will have had the use of them during that time and will not have spent my time moaning on this forum about depreciation and obsolescence.
The M8 is - ball park - the same price as the top of the line offerings from Nikon and less than Canon. I expect it to be jewel-like in its construction and an outstanding performer. And if Leica start to make a healthy profit from it, good on them, they deserve to.
Definitely more heat than light on this thread.
I am sorry that you think the M8 is overpriced. Here in Europe, as Jaap has said, the price seems quite reasonable and the reason it seems a lot in dollar terms is because of the weakness of the dollar caused by a Government unwilling to sort out the budget and trade deficits.
Basic economics: a weak dollar means more of what is actually produced in the US is likely to be sold abroad... helping with that trade deficit :D
In the USA (I am American; BTW), a $5000 camera price is NOT outrageous. The Nikon D2X came out around there, as did the Canon 1D2n (and 1D2). Nothing really surprising for the cost. Every camera has perks... and if the M8 is only 3mm thicker like I keep reading than my M6TTL... then it may just have a place in my gear. Actually the price is a RELIEF. I was worried it was going to be closer to DMR+R9 price ($8000?).
Here are my thoughts. My current wedding kits, film: G2, G1, M6TTL, 7 lenses, all in a Pelican 1450 case with room for another 3 lenses and one body. My digital kit: 2x Olympus E-1 with boosters, 5 lenses all in a 1710 Pelican with room for a VERY sub notebook (shoehorning it in). A 1710 Pelican is the largest carry-on case made and the 1450 is less than half the size. I would love my digital kit to fit in a 1450 case… it would be AWESOME.
In all truth the things I am most looking for in the M8 are simple:
1. Quiet shutter.
2. 16 bit resolution.
3. Negligible size difference from film to digital.
4. Passport warranty.
5. No more than $5000.
Really, that is about it… and I hope it hits all of em. The 16 bit is the biggest deal… and the only one I have real doubts about. But hey, that is pretty much the norm for wishful thinking:)
SteveRD1
08-25-2006, 17:59
So when is this price increase happening with the lenses?
Sailor Ted
01-23-2007, 07:31
Here's a tip for you film guys: the quality of photography depends on the quality of the photographer, but on a technical basis, this camera is going to kick film's ass; this will be like owning a Leica medium format film camera. :D JC
This thread six months past is an interesting read today. John Camp I dub thee with the RFf Nostradamus Award for Outstanding Achievements in Clairvoyance!
>In all truth the things I am most looking for in the M8 are simple:
>
>1. Quiet shutter.
Too bad...
Oh, come on Dave, it may be many things, but loud is not one of them...
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