zeiss - strike 2 for quality control

[back alley]

dear zeiss,

i love your new zi camera and i think your lenses (the ones i have anyway) are very sharp...but i have a concern.

your camera does everything i ask of it. i am a simple street shooter mostly and your 25 and 35 mm lenses are ideal for my style of shooting.

both the 25 and 35 lenses came out of their respective boxes just perfect, flawless and ready to shoot.

but the body had focus problems and focused way past infinity.
it was a hassle, but i was lucky and the dealer sent me another while i was still packing mine for the return trip.

and now, my new 50/2 lens has aperture blades all over the place. no neat little circle formed so i can shoot my simple little street scenes.

again, the dealer is sending me another lens and i will be returning mine to him.

but this is not good. i have a zi body with 3 lenses...the body and one lens had to be returned and exchanged.

i expect more.

joe

[wlewisiii]

I do hope you have gone to the zeiss website and sent that into them, joe. Because that's the kind of email that they need to get in order to have a chance at fixing the QC issues.

William

[bmoc]

ugh! i'm sorry to hear your having troubles like this--it can be so gut-wrenching. i was hoping for more from the zi as well. i handled one at photovillage for a bit, and the framelines kept sticking as i focused--far from the quality i expected for such a price. hopefully they'll work out the kinks as they have with the bessas. good luck with your next body and lens.

-barry

[SDK]

It seems you are very unfortunate, Joe. Such is the stochasticity of life, you have 2 new Zeiss products with problems, I have 5 of their lenses without any hint of problems, even the 28mm Biogon that I dropped 18 inches onto a sidewalk (fell back cap first, still OK but for scratched paint 10 months after the incident). Sometimes bad things happen to good phtographers. I hope your replacements will be trouble free.

[bmattock]

Screws fall out, the world is an imperfect place. Entropy tends towards maximum. And my beer got warm because I left the carton out on the kitchen counter. It is to weep.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

[Andy K]

If you buy beer in a carton you deserve what you get.

[bmattock]

If you buy beer in a carton you deserve what you get.

At least it is not Watney's bleeding Red bleeding Barrel.

[Branestawm]

It's not just you. Amateur Photographer in the UK have just done a test on the ZI. The origonal test camera initially suffered a problem with a couple of the frames overlapping followed by a total failure of the shutter. By all accounts it's a fine machine to use but Zeiss' quality control is not doing them any favours.

[Socke]

Phew! I agree, that's beyond bad luck although I too am a good QC tester. I break anything in no time :)

And William is spot on! Report it to Zeiss, they need to know.

[dcsang]

While we're on the subject... is the quality control really Zeiss or is it just CV again under the Zeiss name?? I get so confused by this..

Dave

[Andy K]

At least it is not Watney's bleeding Red bleeding Barrel.

An American, Canadian and Englishman were in a bar. The American ordered Bud, the Canadian ordered Molson, the Englishman ordered water. The others looked at him and said, "Just water?"
The Englishman replied "Well if you two aren't drinking, then neither am I."

[bmattock]

An American, Canadian and Englishman were in a bar. The American ordered Bud, the Canadian ordered Molson, the Englishman ordered water. The others looked at him and said, "Just water?"
The Englishman replied "Well if you two aren't drinking, then neither am I."

Alright, I'll give you that one. Personally, I prefer Guinness on tap, but beyond that there are a few American beers that I will drink. And yes, they come twelve twelve-ounce bottles to the carton.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

[Bertram2]

and now, my new 50/2 lens has aperture blades all over the place. no neat little circle formed so i can shoot my simple little street scenes.
i expect more.
joe

I'd expect more too. !! That's really bad ,I've never seen anything like that reported for CV lenses, ZI can't afford such sloppy QM at all. That's not the way they will succeed .
Curious if this was a exception or if other lenses will have similar probs too.
We all know that at the beginning of a production line there are always probs with optimizing the assembly process, let's hope that kind of annoying crap will get eliminated soon.
I know how you feel like now, this story is not too amusing . :(

Bertram

[Andy K]

Guinness is ok, but I like to relax with a bottle of Everything's Gone Blank, from the Fine Ale Club.

[bmattock]

Guinness is ok, but I like to relax with a bottle of Everything's Gone Blank, from the Fine Ale Club.

Ah, but does your beer have Guaruana and caffeine and Gingseng added to it? Guess not!

http://www.briansbelly.com/beerbelly/btothee.shtml

I ran into this for sale today on the way home from Raleigh and visitng Cap'n Slack and Tritrisol. I didn't buy any, and reading this, you'll see why. God, we Americans have a lot to answer for.

I'm Sorry,

Bill Mattocks

[Andy K]

Guarana and caffeine? Nope, we just stick to boring old malt and hops. And brew it to 13.5%.

[NIKON KIU]

Out of four items, two had to be returned? Quality Control? what Quality control?
I'll stick to my Nikkors, at least they are not badged as some German brand.
I thought you said" New is...",
Kiu

[telenous]

That's very embarrassing for Zeiss. Makes you wonder what the signed QC certificate that comes with the lens stand for. Having said that, I used the Planar ZM for four months, no problems here.

[MP/CLE]

With straight face and complete sincerety, as I sit here with my Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, has anyone experienced similar qa issues with any late model m series bodies and lenses? I once thought that my 35 'lux asph had an issue with the aperture ring being loose (not bouncing around, but not the accustomed solid click I was used to) right out of the box. Took it in and we looked at the others in the boxes... all the same and apparently a characteristic of the model later confirmed by the rep. Another case of "I thought I was wrong but then it turned out I was mistaken..."

[sunsworth]

I read the same review in AP and raised an eyebrow, it was almost a throw away line on the part of the reviewer. After saying that I've had no problems with any of my CV lenses - and the Zeiss 21mm f2.8 is tempting to buy and use on a digital M :-)

Steve

[shutterflower]

Don't trust CV. Bottom line. That factory just has very poor quality control. It's a pity, because they would actually not lose any money by increasing their QC. RIght now, they spend a good bit on replacements and fixing things for customers. If they simply controlled their quality, their profits would increase - and people would be more likely to buy their products. They may not produce cameras to last as long as Leicas, but there is no reason why their products should not come out with 100% QC.

Right now, I would be very unlikely to buy anything CV because of the constant unpleasantness. I guess Leica's prices are very reasonable.

If I buy into the 35mm world, it will be Leica body and possibly one of the time tested CV lenses - like the 50 Nokton. But really, I'd never feel like I had a truly great product in my hands unless I was holding a Leica. And QC is 95% of the reason. You know you have it with Leica. You know you don't with CV.

[Huck Finn]

Sorry to hear about the problem, Joe. :bang: I'm glad that you'll be getting a replacement.

This question of quality control on this Zeiss line would be an interesting one to explore. If your items came from Tony Rose, then they are grey market & do not come with a Zeiss warranty. There is obviously nothing different in the manufacture of these grey market items, but since they are not Zeiss warranteed, do they come with the Zeiss quality inspection certification? I wonder if they go through the same QC inspection procedures.

I would not get overwrought as a result of this problem. Cosina has developed a track record for its manufacture of rangefinder cameras & lenses since 1999. There have been a number of problems reported with rangefinder misalignment on Voigtlander cameras, so this problem is not terribly uncommon. However, there have been very few problems reported with the manufacture of Voigtlander lenses. I'm sure that Cosina is not using manufacturing procedures with Zeiss lenses that are inferior to those that they are using with their own CV lenses. So, with nothing different, problems such as the one you've described with the lens should be rare. However, we know that Zeiss added another level of testing of prototypes & an additional level of QC to the inspection of finished products. As a result, it's reasonable to expect that problems would be even more rare than the experience with CV lenses.

No human endeavor is perfect, so there will always be some percent of failure. A good process of QC attempts to minimize such problems but they will never be totally eliminated. You can certainly find such reports at www.leica-camera.com on their forum as well. It happens.

It's a shame that you had to be affected twice. Now if you would just stop using those lenses to practice your golf swing . . . ;)

Huck

[ch1]

While we're on the subject... is the quality control really Zeiss or is it just CV again under the Zeiss name?? I get so confused by this..

Dave

Dave,

When the ZI was being introduced the Zeiss crowd assured us that this was a Zeiss camera with Zeiss QC people controlling the output. This was the claim even though Cosina was making the camera.

I am curious what kind of feedbacl we will get to your query now.

Edit: I think this about makes up my mind to my earlier thread. If I don't go with the excellent used M6 I will just go with a R2A and save some serious $$!

[ch1]

Guarana and caffeine? Nope, we just stick to boring old malt and hops. And brew it to 13.5%.

Right now, I am working on a 750ml bottle of "The Three Philosophers" - a Belgian-style brew from the Ommergang Brewery in Cooperstown, NY (yes, where the BB Hall of Fame is). This particular brew comes in at 9.8% which keeps it smooth.

BTW: this brew is dated and can be "cellared". It not you kid's Bud? ;)

[Uncle Bill]

Don't trust CV. Bottom line. That factory just has very poor quality control. It's a pity, because they would actually not lose any money by increasing their QC. RIght now, they spend a good bit on replacements and fixing things for customers. If they simply controlled their quality, their profits would increase - and people would be more likely to buy their products. They may not produce cameras to last as long as Leicas, but there is no reason why their products should not come out with 100% QC.

Right now, I would be very unlikely to buy anything CV because of the constant unpleasantness. I guess Leica's prices are very reasonable.

If I buy into the 35mm world, it will be Leica body and possibly one of the time tested CV lenses - like the 50 Nokton. But really, I'd never feel like I had a truly great product in my hands unless I was holding a Leica. And QC is 95% of the reason. You know you have it with Leica. You know you don't with CV.

Touch wood product, I never had a problem with my CV 35 2.5 Skopar which is used on my M3. The big question to ask are these particular cameras early production examples? I think I might just save my cash and get an R3a from a legit dealer as opposed to grey market.

Bill

[shutterflower]

If you read through much of the material on this forum about the RD-1, Bessas, and now the Ikon, it seems that one really can't draw any pleasing conclusions about CV QC. When the product is at 100%, they have a great product. Their lenses are prime examples of this. They are fantastic bang for the buck - like the 50 Notkon which looks amazing. But, when you factor in their hitrate - remarkably low considering with whom they compete - it is hard to call CV a good factory.

I do say, however, that they don't have bad customer service. I had to return my R3A as it was faulty out of the box, and they must have a deal with retailers that allows no questions asked returns and replacements, because they give me a replacement without regard to whether I had broken it myself.

Trouble with that is, they are wasting money hand over fist as they probably have to scrap a visible portion of their inventory thanks to poor QC. And they are not charging incredibly high prices, either - so they can't be turning the highest profits - not good in this market environment.

Look at the RD-1 : potentially great product, but horrid QC has its effects. If we had 100 potential customers, word of bad QC probably killed 20% of sales immediately, and the next 20% probably had some claim to customer service during their product ownership period. So, they are really wasting market share.

I like their products, I wish they would clean up and fly straight, and I wish they would really focus on product lines instead of these moronic special edition cameras. I know they figure the market is for collectibles now, since digital is around, but I hate it anyway.

Come on Cosina. . . . make us want you bad enough to forget Leica lust. You can do it, you have the lenses, the product designs, you just need to QC, diversify the product mix, and streamline your marketing procedures.

one last example is : take a bad RD-1. It cost how much to produce? Ok, so when you return it for a major flaw, are they going to spend $$$ on manhours fixing it or just send you another one? No matter what, they are probably spending the full market price and then some on lost unit sales and on processing costs.

[back alley]

the second camera has worked flawlessly.
the 25 & 35 lenses work flawlessly.

the 50 is a fluke, i would hope. the serial numbers are close for 2 of the lenses.

the camera came from popflash and the 50 from cq.
i in no way infer that either seller is to blame.
both have been exemplary in their customer service.

i had a bessa r + 35/75 cv lenses with absolutely no problems with any of them.

judging from the second body and the other 2 lenses iknow they are capable of making great products.

i was disappointed as i planned a weekend of shooting with all 3 lenses.
the good part is i got back in touch with the 35 zm this morning for the little bit of shooting i did get in today.

and can i remind the drinkers (and smokers) that it is very unkind to discuss what i can no longer enjoy...;)

joe

[sunsworth]

Really tight QC adds cost to a product. Every manufacturer decides how much QC cost they want to add to the product. In the case of CV, if a lens or body is slightly out of spec then the buyer probably won't realise that there's a problem and won't return it. If one lens/body out of five hundred is returned, that probably costs Cosina less than introducing a tight QC regime which would probably mean every item being hand checked.

Steve

[ch1]

i was disappointed as i planned a weekend of shooting with all 3 lenses.
the good part is i got back in touch with the 35 zm this morning for the little bit of shooting i did get in today.

and can i remind the drinkers (and smokers) that it is very unkind to discuss what i can no longer enjoy...;)

joe

Joe,

Well at least you were able to do some shooting today. I got in a total of two pics (grab shots with the F3 of the Copake Clock in color so I can "cheer up" the country avatar from the wintertime pic). No time for shooting today because we were putting in the veggie garden. This included erecting new fences against the illegal immigrant (and native) critters etc.! :D

As to drinking non-soft beverages - I thought a glass or two of red wine each day was good for the heart? ;)

[back alley]

alcohol causes severe migraines now.

i'm being punished for enjoying life too much when i was young.


plan on shooting tomorrow and monday - come hell or high water...:)

joe

[shutterflower]

Really tight QC adds cost to a product. Every manufacturer decides how much QC cost they want to add to the product. In the case of CV, if a lens or body is slightly out of spec then the buyer probably won't realise that there's a problem and won't return it. If one lens/body out of five hundred is returned, that probably costs Cosina less than introducing a tight QC regime which would probably mean every item being hand checked.

Steve


yeah, but I'd bet they get more than 1/500, and maybe . . . maybe they could just go ahead and build a higher quality product to begin with.

There's an idea.

do you really think that putting a checker in place to test VFs for alignment would cost more than $2 per body on average? I don't think so. the VF is the #1 issue, so they just need to attack that one. Or spend an extra $2 at the build stage to ensure that things are in place.

Spread $1500 over 500 bodies, that's $3 per kit, and if they do only get 1/500 back, they would break even in not too long.

[back alley]

i thought all the zm lenses were shipped back to germany for individual inspection. each lens comes with a card signed by the inspector. my 50 did!

must have been a friday inspection...

[peter_n]

[major snip] But really, I'd never feel like I had a truly great product in my hands unless I was holding a Leica. And QC is 95% of the reason. You know you have it with Leica. You know you don't with CV.I'm sorry George, but my experience doesn't jell with this. I have three (modern) Leica bodies. They have been, so far (touch wood) awesome. Modern Leica lenses are another story. Very bad experiences with two current Summicrons, and my latest trial is with a new 24mm ASPH. As the owner of several flawless Konica Hexanon-M and CV (yes CV) lenses, I am not impressed.

[raid]

dear zeiss,

i love your new zi camera and i think your lenses (the ones i have anyway) are very sharp...but i have a concern.

your camera does everything i ask of it. i am a simple street shooter mostly and your 25 and 35 mm lenses are ideal for my style of shooting.

both the 25 and 35 lenses came out of their respective boxes just perfect, flawless and ready to shoot.

but the body had focus problems and focused way past infinity.
it was a hassle, but i was lucky and the dealer sent me another while i was still packing mine for the return trip.

and now, my new 50/2 lens has aperture blades all over the place. no neat little circle formed so i can shoot my simple little street scenes.

again, the dealer is sending me another lens and i will be returning mine to him.

but this is not good. i have a zi body with 3 lenses...the body and one lens had to be returned and exchanged.

i expect more.

joe

Joe,

I am sorry to learn about your frustrating problems with the Zeiss camera and lens (made by CV). I mentioned before in a thread that it is unlikely that we will get the same quality as Leica M cameras for less cost.

[sunsworth]

George, a higher quality product = a higher cost product. Stray too far and they begin to move into Leica territory. As I say, I've had no problems with my CV lenses - and I have 15, 21, 24, 28 and 90. It seems to be the bodies that cause the problem, perhaps because they're based on el-crapo cheap SLR bodies, who knows? I'd bet that CV make much more money from the lenses than they do bodies. Anyone know the figures?

Steve

[raid]

High Quality ==> Low Variability. This costs more money. It is simple as that.
If you try to put aside Joe's unfortunate experience with Zeiss as a sad incident, then you may not be acknowledging the fact that there seems to be a relatively high level of variability in some of the newer Zeiss products.

[ch1]

George, a higher quality product = a higher cost product. Stray too far and they begin to move into Leica territory. As I say, I've had no problems with my CV lenses - and I have 15, 21, 24, 28 and 90. It seems to be the bodies that cause the problem, perhaps because they're based on el-crapo cheap SLR bodies, who knows? I'd bet that CV make much more money from the lenses than they do bodies. Anyone know the figures?

Steve

What's odd is that I have a couple of S-mount 85mm CV lenses and they are great. Ditto the 28.

So I am surprised that Joe's 50mm ZM lens went "blotto".

I love my two Bessa R2S cameras - but know they are $500 rigs (see my post on the R4 speculation thread) and you get what you pay for.

Issue here is that the Zeiss fans ensured us that this was going to be a great product line because Zeiss would manage the QC function. So we were told we shouldn't think of these bodies and lenses as CV gear - but as Zeiss.

So Zeiss carries the burden here - not Mr. K! It's their production line - not his!

[Bertram2]

Out of four items, two had to be returned? Quality Control? what Quality control?
I'll stick to my Nikkors, at least they are not badged as some German brand.
I thought you said" New is...",
Kiu

Well, I don't think anybody is surprised that you will stick with Nikon, must be a kind of religion for you .
Actually the 2 bad of four delivered say absolutely nothing. If that is a statistic value for you to base a judgment on then you missed some lessons at school.
Nikon is fine , I use one too. One has just to avoid tho all the many terrible crap they have produced, like most of their SLR AF primes. Which do not only have a poor optical performance and mechanical quality, but are basically faulty designs, like the 2/35 for example. Nonetheless they are still sold, and that is much worse than any QC probs at the beginning of a production.

When some Leica users had probs recently with front elements coming off nobody
took that as a proof that one cannot trust Leica. Same other probs the M6 and M7 had, light leaks, dust leaks, electronics etc. All that S**T which happened with the Nikon F3 for years, was that a reason to distrust the make in principle ? For CV and Zeiss tho a prob seems to be enuff reason to distrust the make in principle ?

I should not complain about a lack of logic tho, it's not about logic here. People like you simply have to tell us periodically that THEIR choice of brand was and still is and ever will be the best. So what, I think we got enuff tolerance here, even for this kind of statements. If it really helps you.......:rolleyes:

bertram

[RObert Budding]

Alright, I'll give you that one. Personally, I prefer Guinness on tap, but beyond that there are a few American beers that I will drink. And yes, they come twelve twelve-ounce bottles to the carton.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

I'm partial to Dogfish Head 90 minute IPA. But they come in a 4-pack. Just as well because they are 9% alcohol.

[back alley]

not to sour the grapes but bertram is right.
i'm always facinated when a leica owner says his hood falls off, or the front element comes out or there is dust in the finder but...it's a leica so it's ok.

for those beating the leica drum, great, but do your homework too. there are problems with the newer leitz gear too.

and when all is said and done, having owned both new leica and new zeiss gear, there is not enough difference in the quality of the product or the quality of the photos to offer me incentive enough to spend the extra for the leica gear.

the bargains are in the older used leica gear...

joe

[shutterflower]

yeah, whatever. Maybe CV isn't that bad, but I just think they could offer better QC without raising prices - the just have to come up with a product that really draws sales. Instead of all the R&D spent creating these limited edition cameras, maybe produce one great one for the next couple years. Work on QC enough that it strikes the market as a keeper, and build a reputation as competition for Leica and Nikon instead of the low-end option.

They can, of course, do this while maintaining their low end stock.

[John Robertson]

I regret to say that in this weeks Amateur Photographer UK there is a 4 page test of the Zeiss Ikon. I does quite well, but the tester noted that the first camera they had on test jammed, and had to be replaced. This does not create a good image!! (sorry pun not intended) :(

[ch1]

Well, I don't think anybody is surprised that you will stick with Nikon, must be a kind of religion for you .
Actually the 2 bad of four delivered say absolutely nothing. If that is a statistic value for you to base a judgment on then you missed some lessons at school.
Nikon is fine , I use one too. One has just to avoid tho all the many terrible crap they have produced, like most of their SLR AF primes. Which do not only have a poor optical performance and mechanical quality, but are basically faulty designs, like the 2/35 for example. Nonetheless they are still sold, and that is much worse than any QC probs at the beginning of a production.

When some Leica users had probs recently with front elements coming off nobody
took that as a proof that one cannot trust Leica. Same other probs the M6 and M7 had, light leaks, dust leaks, electronics etc. All that S**T which happened with the Nikon F3 for years, was that a reason to distrust the make in principle ? For CV and Zeiss tho a prob seems to be enuff reason to distrust the make in principle ?

I should not complain about a lack of logic tho, it's not about logic here. People like you simply have to tell us periodically that THEIR choice of brand was and still is and ever will be the best. So what, I think we got enuff tolerance here, even for this kind of statements. If it really helps you.......:rolleyes:

bertram


See, didn't I tell you this would happen.

The Zeissians are offended!

The fault now is Cosina's. And Nikons are sh*t - always have been, always will!

What a crock!

Spend your money on a ZI and if it don't work - it's your fault!

B....S!!!

[Fedzilla_Bob]

Maybe there should be a beer thread.

We americans aren't without decent beer. We're even willing to share with the adventurous. The microbrewery boom has saved us from Anheiser Busch, and Miller.

While the following aren't micros, they are good.

http://www.redhook.com/

http://www.samueladams.com/world_of_beer.aspx

http://www.karlstrauss.com/ <---- My local favorite

I must admit my all time favorite was brought home from Germany two years ago as a present from my step son. Can't get it here, and the name escapes me, the flavor however - unforgetable.

Joe- maybe you aren't completely discouraged, but I'm sure you are becoming annoyed. Let us know if you do send Zeiss a message, they deserve to hear your negative impressions. Sorry for mentioning the brews.

Bob H

[back alley]

i might send them a messege.
maybe they will send me a free hood for the 50;)

while i am disappointed, mostly because i'm getting more rigid with age and it threw a wrench in my planned zeiss weekend, i am not too bothered.
i understand when a product is new there might be a glitch or 2.
what makes it easier to take is the 2 dealers that i have dealt with so far.
no hassles whatsoever.
send it back for a replacement, even offering to cover the shipping.
with customer service like this it's really hard to get angry.

and i do have the elmar if i really need a 50;)

joe

[bmattock]

Maybe everyone should take a deep breath and get back to the more basic questions of what brand of camera bag to buy, what type of camera case to buy, and which uber-expensive lens will look best on the end of their camera.

This mud-slinging on brands is not important. What's important is how much money we have.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

[shutterflower]

Maybe there should be a beer thread.

We americans aren't without decent beer. We're even willing to share with the adventurous. The microbrewery boom has saved us from Anheiser Busch, and Miller.

While the following aren't micros, they are good.

http://www.redhook.com/

http://www.samueladams.com/world_of_beer.aspx

http://www.karlstrauss.com/ <---- My local favorite

I must admit my all time favorite was brought home from Germany two years ago as a present from my step son. Can't get it here, and the name escapes me, the flavor however - unforgetable.

Joe- maybe you aren't completely discoraged, but I'm sure you are becoming annoyed. Let us know if you do send Zeiss a message, they deserve to hear your negative impressions. Sorry for mentioning the brews.

Bob H


mmm. Yes. Redhook is great beer. I'm drinking a bottle of Sunrye Summer Ale right now. Love their ESB too.

[back alley]

Maybe everyone should take a deep breath and get back to the more basic questions of what brand of camera bag to buy, what type of camera case to buy, and which uber-expensive lens will look best on the end of their camera.

This mud-slinging on brands is not important. What's important is how much money we have.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks


that's not fair!
i'm poor.

i only got into all this zeiss stuff cause you guys bought it for me.

well, i did buy the 2 other lenses but i had to sell my soul for them.

and to answer your other questions...mclassic bag and luigi case and a long honking lens so everyone will know that i'm a big guy;)

joe

[Fedzilla_Bob]

Argh- hate mud in my eye.

Is that a 90 or are you happy to be here? Helloooooo nurse! Sorry.. Ahem

Andechs! Andechs! That's the one! Amazing stuff - http://www.andechs.de/

Heffeweissbier Dunkel! Serr Gutt!

[visiondr]

Alright, I'll give you that one. Personally, I prefer Guinness on tap, but beyond that there are a few American beers that I will drink. And yes, they come twelve twelve-ounce bottles to the carton.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

American beer, British beer, Candian beer... ha... give me a genuine Hefeweizen any day. I just got back from Munich (not far from there anyway) and the friggin' beer is to die for. I could have bathed in the stuff... come to think of it...

visiondr

[ch1]

Heck, switched to Zinfandel a while ago. One beer (err... one Ommergang that is) a week! Whew.

The word here was that the ZI was "special". Not "just" a Cosina R-series but a Zeiss QC'd wunder kamera!

When some of us suggested otherwise the Zeissians went for the jugler. This camera was supposed to be "German-quality" etc. As if the Japanese had not yet mastered the skill of camera making and needed German assistance!

Well, truth be told, this thing is not a very good kit! And it carries the Zeiss label - no one elses!

I have bought tons of Nikon gear - both new and used. I have never had any problem with it! THERE IS A REASON WHY THE JAPANESE CAMERA INDUSTRY USED TO INSIST ON THOSE GOLD OVALS!!

The European camera industy is all but dead! They've tried to resurrect some classic names through "strategic alliances" with Japanese makers (while simultaneously denying the Japanese role). Yet when things go awry - it is "those peoples" fault.

Sounds familar. Sounds like the old Germany! :p

[bmattock]

Meanwhile, on planet Earth...

[back alley]

time to take a step back...relax, take a deep breath...

there has been no name calling and while these slugs continue to invade my thread with talk of beer ;) no harm has has been done to anyone.

joe

[bmattock]

no harm has has been done to anyone.


Couple of egos could use a good mugging.

[back alley]

i love those eggos, in the morning, with a little syrop...maybe some sausage

[visiondr]

time to take a step back...relax, take a deep breath...

there has been no name calling and while these slugs continue to invade my thread with talk of beer ;) no harm has has been done to anyone.

joe


Oops, sorry about the beer talk... must be the beer talking.

[SDK]

For all we know Joe's bad lens was fine when it left Zeiss QC, and some part vibrated loose during one of the legs of its journey shipping to Joe. Or maybe both QC techs did miss something wrong. These things happen, and it does not mean the ZM/ZI product line as a whole is not reliable, or that Zeiss is overcharging customers. This is why companies have warranties. Life is not perfect, but Joe will get a working lens in the end. We don't have reliability or return statistics from Zeiss, Leica, Cosina, Canon or Nikon, so no one here can say objectively what the relative effectiveness of their QC programs are.

Brooklyn Lager from NYC and Geary's Pale Ale from Maine are both nice to my palate, as is Sam Adams' Summer Ale.

[bmattock]

i love those eggos, in the morning, with a little syrop...maybe some sausage

OK, Joe. Sorry your kit broke, really. Don't think it means Zeiss stinks, or CV, or Leica, or even Nikon. Sample is too small. But tiny minds are too willing to pounce to attack or defend their so-called turf. Sad.

Pardon my getting shirty, I've been not doing a good job lately of holding back my gag reflex over the 'what color bag is most important in my darkroom with my latest 'cron and by the way I have three of them which I keep in each of my three houses' threads.

G'night.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

[back alley]

OK, Joe. Sorry your kit broke, really. Don't think it means Zeiss stinks, or CV, or Leica, or even Nikon. Sample is too small. But tiny minds are too willing to pounce to attack or defend their so-called turf. Sad.

Pardon my getting shirty, I've been not doing a good job lately of holding back my gag reflex over the 'what color bag is most important in my darkroom with my latest 'cron and by the way I have three of them which I keep in each of my three houses' threads.

G'night.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks


no sorry's needed...i thought we were talking about breakfast. :)

and if i ever sound like i'm posting just to say 'hey look at me and all the gear i have', i hope you would be among the first to kick me off that horse!

joe

[Fedzilla_Bob]

I heard beer kills slugs ;) hic.

[ch1]

I heard beer kills slugs ;) hic.

Yes, and they die happy. :angel:

Or, you can pour salt on them if you want to watch them shrivel up in agony. :eek:

[dogless]

I remember reading more then a few owners of the new summilux asph 50 mm lenses having to return them for repair/replacement due to focusing problems, apparently a QC issue. And remember 100% of the entire first bunch of MP’s had the viewfinder dust problem. The engineering brain trust at Leica determined the MP design to be mechanically perfect? Are the Zeiss issues with the ZI and lenses a design issue or a QC issue?

[beethamd]

Geoffrey Crawley in AP tested the 50, 21 & 35. Liked them, but noted distortion and high vignetting. Much of the article covers the historical perspective of the new Ikon and lenses, which makes for a very interesting read.

He said too, that Tokina made lenses for Contax? I took it to mean for Contax, not just in the Contax mount (C/Y). Is that true?

[Andy K]

Maybe everyone should take a deep breath and get back to the more basic questions of what brand of camera bag to buy, what type of camera case to buy, and which uber-expensive lens will look best on the end of their camera.


Mere fluff which pales into insignificance when you consider the most important aspect of rf photography: which camera strap to use.

Maybe perspective is required, how many threads are there on RFF about new Zeiss Ikon defects... and how many threads are there about Epson RD1 defects? I have read an absolute catalogue of failures, returned bodies, breakdowns etc. etc. experienced by RD-1 owners on this forum, this is the first and only time I have read of anything going amiss with the Zeiss Ikon. I know which one I would buy.

[Fred]

Oddly enough, you don't often here about all the ZI, CV, Leica kit that has worked well out of the box and the owners are more than happy about it.

Stuff goes wrong, and thats a fact. You would expect that the more you pay that the 'chance' of failure is reduced but could still happen, but if you sold your neighbours house and bought a special edition Hermes Leica and the VF was dusty you'd be p*ssed off more than if you spent a few months beer budget on a Bessa and the virtical alignment was a little bit out.

Getting 100% reliability on a mass produced product at any price is is very very hard to achieve.

Sorry to hear that Joe has had more than his fair share of QC issues though.

I guess we'll never stop this CV, ZI or Leica bashing from some quarters. Seems that the only way to stop it is for a company to go under. When was the last time we saw a flood of bleats about Contax kit?

Time to go out and shoot some images... I feel much better now.

[Bertram2]

See, didn't I tell you this would happen.

The Zeissians are offended!
The fault now is Cosina's. And Nikons are sh*t - always have been, always will!
What a crock!
Spend your money on a ZI and if it don't work - it's your fault!
B....S!!!

Ah , one of these silly BS broadsides again, I thought you had given up this sort of impolite communication !!?? :rolleyes:

It's maybe hard for you to understand , but on my forehad is NO brand tattooed ! Get it, finally !!
I am neither a "Zeissian" nor a "Nikonian" nor another sort of weak minded "xxxian" person , I refuse to play in the sandbox with such a kind of Kinderkacke ! And I don't need a stupid brand either to have a place to feel at home or accepted by my friends and neighbours or as a chick magnet or to feel as a member of an exclusive club, the latter both quotes btw from some post i read recently here.

I just take what serves my purposes best and offers me the best worth for money. I can afford that, my social status does not depend on any makes, you see ? THAT is what is tattoed on MY forehead !

So if it should turn out that Zeiss does not get the QM under control I will be the first who sorts out this product as a deformed child of a German - Japanese cooperation.

My concern is the stupidity of talking any products down just to confirm yourself you have chosen the "right" one. This is the way one starts flames, because there are always some other Gagas willing to "bite", no matter how silly the contribution is.

bertram
And thanks for the "BS", it tells me that the manners of the "Nikonians" leave to desire, to say it polite.

[Socke]

He said too, that Tokina made lenses for Contax? I took it to mean for Contax, not just in the Contax mount (C/Y). Is that true?

I don't think so. Yashica/Kyocera had sufficient resources to produce enough lenses.
But in todays times one never knows who produces what for whom :)

Edit:

That's why I rely on QC. When I buy a brand name, I want better QC than what I get from the nonames. But often enough that is not the case :(

[Pherdinand]

alcohol causes severe migraines now.
i'm being punished for enjoying life too much when i was young.
joe

Joe - my mom has migraine alot. She never was a big fan of alcohol.
You should be glad that at least you've "enjoyed life" ; you might have the migraines anyway!

[Pherdinand]

Sorry but still, Belgium is the beer country.
Even my proud dutch friends accept it.
Luckily you can get even Hoegaarden in the US!
Even if most of the belgian breweries are bought up by interbrew, they kept them as they were, more or less.
And then there are those like maredsous, chimay, affligem... mmm

[Andy K]

Sorry but still, Belgium is the beer country.
Even my proud dutch friends accept it.
Luckily you can get even Hoegaarden in the US!
Even if most of the belgian breweries are bought up by interbrew, they kept them as they were, more or less.
And then there are those like maredsous, chimay, affligem... mmm

Beer in Belgium? Belgium is responsible for the foul tasting, weak, over-priced crime known as Stella Artois. :p

[Pherdinand]

Stella Artois is the Bud of Belgium. Just like Heineken is for the Netherlands.
A stereotype.
A proof that good marketing does not need good quality.

[Huck Finn]

The word here was that the ZI was "special". Not "just" a Cosina R-series but a Zeiss QC'd wunder kamera!

When some of us suggested otherwise the Zeissians went for the jugler. This camera was supposed to be "German-quality" etc. As if the Japanese had not yet mastered the skill of camera making and needed German assistance!

Well, truth be told, this thing is not a very good kit! And it carries the Zeiss label - no one elses!

Well, George, you've now entered 7 posts on this thread just to say "I told you so." One would have been sufficient. It seems that you are the one attmpting to go for the jugular. So . . . How are the anger management classes going?

Since I am part of the "Zeiss crowd" that you feel compelled to insult, I will respond.

Let's talk about facts:

1. Joe's comment about the problem with his ZI camera is not new. He reported it a long time ago. He then posted a survey to see how many problems there have been with the body. Grand total = 3! Since that thread died, more members have bought ZI cameras - including Joe's replacement body. No new reports of problems. Still just 3. That's it.

2. Joe reported a new problem with a lens. I haven't seen any other problems reported with ZM lenses. Maybe I missed one somewhere. There have been a lot more ZM lenses sold than ZI cameras.

Where is the Zeiss QC epidemic?

There are now 4 pages of this thread complaining about Zeiss quality control without a shred of evidence that there is a serious problem. Frankly, I haven't seen a single Zeiss problem reported on any of the other rangefinder forums. Just happy customers pursuing their hobby of taking pictures - with pleasure.

George, you're a bright guy. Why the hang up on this issue?

The fact is that the ZI is special. Truth is that this is a very good kit. Yes, the QC is Zeiss. What's special about that is not the German name but the fact that they are inspecting every item that leaves the factory like they used to when you & I got that little gold label on our cameras. No one else does that any more.

I have no idea who claimed " 'German-quality' . . . as if the Japanese had not mastered the skill of camera making and needed German assistance." I shoot with Nikons & drive a Japanese car. I frankly find it offensive to attempt to turn this into some kind of race war.

Nothing is perfect. Anyone who is looking for problems can find them to reinforce their previously held bias.

I'm sorry that Joe had the misfortune to be the recipient of two problems. If I were Joe, I'd be upset too. But for others to take this situation out of the context of all of the other satisfied owners is . . . just absurd.

Huck

[back alley]

and while annoyed i would still count myself as a mostly satisfied owner.

if you go over some of my previous posts i have expressed great love for the zm lenses. one problem lens has not altered the fact that the other 2 are still sharp and smooth to operate.

joe

[Patman]

All i can say is i still own the M3 and 3 lenses i purchased over 40 years ago. I have never had a problem with any piece of Leitz equipment in all that time and my M still works flawlessly, to me that speaks for itself.

[Way]

Joe,

Sorry to hear about your second problem. I do hope it will be resolved quickly!
I am also wondering about my ZI body (the last frame is always a "half" frame). I will
probably call Tony and ask him if that is a problem.

Way

[NIKON KIU]

I have a Zeiss lens or two that I swear by...on a medium format Hassy of course...superb built quality,built like a tank and priced accordingly.
The items mentioned here are suppose to be high quality Photo gear and they are priced as such. I just think the quality control is not up to what Ziess represents but then, the prices of new Zeiss stuff is not like the old Zeiss stuff(cheaper).
I have almost had everything Nikon makes at one time or another and I am embarrassed to say that the Cosina made FM10 and the two lenses they make for it,although still in production, is the Worst gear I have seen with the Nikon badging....compared to the FM10 the FG and the series E lenses rule!
Bottom line is "time will tell"...will this new Zeiss gear hold up to 15 years of use? Will it be used by Photojournalists in the next war?
TIME WILL TELL,
Kiu

[Socke]

Bottom line is "time will tell"...will this new Zeiss gear hold up to 15 years of use? Will it be used by Photojournalists in the next war?
TIME WILL TELL,
Kiu

I can answer the last one, a definite NO!

[raid]

I still have an 18 year old Magnavox VCR that is heavy and made from metal. It still performs 100% as it did when new. I also a newer VCR that is more advanced electronically but its shell is not from metal. It seems to be similar with the newer cameras and lenses. While optically the lenses may be more advanced, the older lenses are built to last. The same goes for some camera makers.

[John Robertson]

All i can say is i still own the M3 and 3 lenses i purchased over 40 years ago. I have never had a problem with any piece of Leitz equipment in all that time and my M still works flawlessly, to me that speaks for itself.

well whoopee for you!

seriously I find this whole argument mind numbingly pointless. Ok some wee lassie forgot to tighten a screw on a lens on a production line, and the whole world ends. I strikes me that the Almighty forgot to tighten a few screws on his production line, but we just have to get along with them!! :angel:

[bmattock]

I strikes me that the Almighty forgot to tighten a few screws on his production line, but we just have to get along with them!! :angel:

I think a few might actually be a tiny bit too tight. Use some loosening up. Fortunately, I carry a wrench in my pocket for just such emergencies.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

[Andy K]

I was rather hoping this would develop into a wine thread.


At one point it was in danger of turning into a whine thread.

[Trius]

Received a '03 Harbour Estates Cab/Merlot (http://www.hewwine.com/about%20us.htm) last night from a house guest. '03 was very good for cab franc in Niagara region; the bottle is not their top-rated label, but should be quite lovely.

The '03 Hillebrand Showcase Unfiltered Chardonnay (http://www.winecountryathome.com/winecountry/shopping/p_itemdetail.asp?ITEMID=1007234) is in the cellar (half-case, bought on futures program for significant discount), awaiting its cab franc brother to be released next month, a full case worth. The chard was quite amazing at the barrel tasting, so another 18 months of bottle aging will be interesting. The cab franc was stunning out of the barrel; young and tight but full of promise, said to be capable of 20-25 years of aging. Those puppies will be sleeping for awhile before any see the light of day.

June 17 is Earl's 2nd Annual Summer Solstice Party, reds (but not the 03 cab franc!) are featured this year. Book your flight, MacCauley. ;)

[Gman]

It's not just you. Amateur Photographer in the UK have just done a test on the ZI. The origonal test camera initially suffered a problem with a couple of the frames overlapping followed by a total failure of the shutter. By all accounts it's a fine machine to use but Zeiss' quality control is not doing them any favours.

OK- just developed a roll of film from this weekend's shooting. It had 2 frames overlapping. This is probably the 10th-15th roll I've run through the ZI since I got it in late March- never any problem before this.

Just a fluke? Am I to be concerned? Indication of future problems? What about my summer trip I'm planning to Russia- take the Zeiss or the Leica?

I'd like to hear your comments.

Jeff

[Kim Coxon]

Remember what happened to last time a thread did! :eek:

Kim

I was rather hoping this would develop into a wine thread.

[Les Lammers]

I don't think so. Yashica/Kyocera had sufficient resources to produce enough lenses.
But in todays times one never knows who produces what for whom :)

Edit:

That's why I rely on QC. When I buy a brand name, I want better QC than what I get from the nonames. But often enough that is not the case :(


Sums it up nicely. The beer blather is a waste of bandwidth.

[kully]

Beer, Leica supremecists, wine and grumbling about the "modern times" - grand thread :D

So, anyone not agree that a select few Leica owners need to justify the money they spent by (in perfectly good nature) ribbing those who decided to spend less on 'lesser' makes? ( I had the same thing at the Pentax forums when I replaced a knackered Pentax SLR with a new 'Centon' body).

[Andy K]

Currently on the beercam we have...

[kully]

Beer? There is only one event:

http://www.camra.org.uk/page.aspx?o=195496

[jaapv]

Beer? There is only one event:

http://www.camra.org.uk/page.aspx?o=195496

You can't be serious, beer should be cold...HERE!!! (http://www.oktoberfest.de/)

[Andy K]

You can't be serious, beer should be cold...HERE!!! (http://www.oktoberfest.de/)

You cannot be serious! The only time beer should be yellow is about an hour after it has been drunk.

[kully]

Of course beer should be cold ... colder than your body tempreture (10-16 Celcius depending upon the type).

Beer from a fridge just tastes of coldness. :p

[Andy K]

Of course beer should be cold ... colder than your body tempreture (10-16 Celcius depending upon the type).

Beer from a fridge just tastes of coldness. :p


Continentals have to serve their beer freezing cold to disguise its complete lack of flavour. :p

[jaapv]

As a matter of fact real beer for real men should be BLACK. After one has drunk two pints of THIS (http://www.ufleku.cz/) it is impossible to notice the colour anyway...

[traveller]

You can't be serious, beer should be cold...HERE!!! (http://www.oktoberfest.de/)

That's for weenies, here (http://www.andechs.de/englisch/brauerei/glossar/index.html) is the real stuff :D

[kully]

I agree there john, they were selling something like that in Wetherspoons last year (in little bottles). 14% or something like that?

All I remember is somehow getting home somehow and then sitting on the toilet for most of the rest day, holding my head and occasionly unleashing fury on the toilet below.

[back alley]

good morning all!

well, this thread has taken a few turns, beer, wine, whine...:)

and now it's time to put it away and i'll mail my lens back and get another...

joe