Film is fringe

[boarini2003]

It's funny, but lately I have observed that it's "cool" or "contrary" ;-) to use mechanical cameras and film. That's how much things have changed. Film users are now a fringe group! I notice it when I walk around town on weekends, holding my Bessa or my FM2, and people stare at the camera, or ask me questions about it. "How many megapixels in film?" "What do you mean 'no batteries'?" Sometimes people ask to see it, and they love to hold it and ask questions about it. Sometimes I want to go unnoticed, and it's not me, but the camera getting the attention. And especially on weekends, I bump into quite a few that use film SLRs. Just yesterday I say a guy walking around with an old black Canon F-1. On easter I even say a couple tourists with Leicas, one had an R9, the other an M6. And like two weeks ago, I saw about 15 people using manual cameras in a single day. I saw nikon F, Olympus OM, and countless Canons. It was certainly a joy!

[darkkavenger]

That is nice! Where was it ?

[Simon Larbalestier]

It's funny, but lately I have observed that it's "cool" or "contrary" ;-) to use mechanical cameras and film. That's how much things have changed. Film users are now a fringe group!

Not wishing to be rude here:
So we are a fringe group now? is this meant to be a joke? -
what total B******S :bang:

[darkkavenger]

I'm being more specific : it's nice to see people with manual cameras. :)

[mike_j]

Well, maybe it's different here in rural England. No-one takes a blind bit of notice what camera you have apart from apologising for being in the way - very annoying if you are trying to get shots with people in them!.

Only reaction to a specific camera I have had was in a pub when someone asked about my Rollei 35T - he couldn't undersatnad how it worked without a battery.

[kully]

I agree with Mike, I see film cameras all the time. Mostly P&Ss, the expensive cameras I see are mostly digital.

I think it's people using what they're used to - you put a film in and then get prints from it. Rather than mucking about with computers and the like.

I live in a small city, I'd like to see more photographers of any sort - commonality would sure cut down on the dirty stares people taking photos get around here.

[jamiewakeham]

Hmm. I think, in my experience at least, the OP has a point. Digi P&S are so much standard issue, at least to my age group, that to shoot film at all marks me as a little off-the-wall. Certainly, my Zorki is useless as a stealth camera because everyone remarks on it and wants to play with it! I'd be more inconspicuous with a digicam...

Cheers
Jamie

[ch1]

I agree with Mike, I see film cameras all the time. Mostly P&Ss, the expensive cameras I see are mostly digital.

I think it's people using what they're used to - you put a film in and then get prints from it. Rather than mucking about with computers and the like.

I live in a small city, I'd like to see more photographers of any sort - commonality would sure cut down on the dirty stares people taking photos get around here.

Odd, I would say it is quite the opposite here in tourist-packed NYC. Seems as if almost everyone is toting a digi P&S (or even a digicamera phone). Yes, I also see more expensive dSLRs - but the archtype is a 20-something Japanese female with a small digi P&S about the size of a pack of cancer sticks.!

Yesterday I planted myself in a spot at 52nd and 6th Ave. and was shooting people (mainly cellphone users) with my F3. It was interesting that a number of people looked at the camera apprehensively at first and then "relaxed". Almost as if once they saw it was a big clunkly film camera they figured I must not be "spying" on them! :D

[Simon Larbalestier]

Hmm. I think, in my experience at least, the OP has a point. Digi P&S are so much standard issue, at least to my age group, that to shoot film at all marks me as a little off-the-wall. Certainly, my Zorki is useless as a stealth camera because everyone remarks on it and wants to play with it! I'd be more inconspicuous with a digicam...

Cheers
Jamie

Maybe that's true but when i was working on my last project in Cambodia one of the people i was with, had digital P & S to make quick record shots to go with reports. That camera got a lot of attention because everyone watched behind as the person checked the images on the screen! However luckily i was ignored with my rangefinders and could concentrate making the pictures. In this context the digital P & S had a bit of novelty factor and also represented a sign of wealth as it was "new technology". I only got strange looks when i took the bottom off my camera to change films.

I'm sure this would be diiferent in more developed countries so may i am on the fringe. :)

[boarini2003]

Darkkavenger: It's in Antigua, Guatemala

Simon: No, I don't mean it as a joke. Out of all the people in my circle, nobody, I mean NOBODY uses film. Not in school, not in my family, and rarely on the street. For every film camera I see, I find 20 digital Point and shoots. Hence the use of the term "fringe."

[Simon Larbalestier]

OK boarini2003 i wasn't having a pop at you :)

perhaps we should rename this site fringefinderforum.com :D

certainly the shift in consumer markets had forced some labs and decent old fashioned camera shops to close or become something else (i'm thinking of Jessops and Calumet here) in the UK - not to mention some respected camera manufacters. Fortunately there are still some diehard film users in Bangkok and some great used gear to be found.

[ch1]

Simon: No, I don't mean it as a joke. Out of all the people in my circle, nobody, I mean NOBODY uses film. Not in school, not in my family, and rarely on the street. For every film camera I see, I find 20 digital Point and shoots. Hence the use of the term "fringe."

I absolutely agree that film cameras are much less frequently seen than digis, espescially P&S's. The digi is the snapshot camera of the present era and snapshot shooters comprise the vast bulk of users. People love to see the image, both before and immediately after the shot. They cluster around the shooter after he/she takes a picture.

In fact, I'd guess that very few digi images ever get printed. People see the pic on the LCD, admire it (or not) and then erase it after awhile when the memory card gets filled!

[bmattock]

My take on this - two forces at work here. The first is generational, and the second is due to technology-skipping.

Generational: My nieces and nephews (who are now adults, some in the military already, no matter how much I want them to be 'kids') are unfamiliar with B&W television, phones with rotary dials, broadcast television. They've never known a world that did not have a microwave oven, MTV, and the Internet. The idea that I could not just call home on my cell phone when I was in the military, but had to stand in line to use a pay phone was amazing to them. They at least know what a film camera is - but they have never seen a 'slide show', they would not recognize a slide if you handed one to them. And they're just on the cusp of one technology change - they'll fondly remember to their kids that they remember when people took film cartridges to one-hour shops to get their photos processed, and their kids will have no idea what they're talking about.

Technology Skipping: Many parts of the world that have, for one reason or another, never had a middle-class or a photo-taking culture are now joining the digital world. And they're not waiting in line to have land-lines installed in villages that have never owned a phone so that they can make a call - they're going straight to cell phones. They won't be progressing through film to digital cameras - they are going straight to digital. Some of them will never have been exposed (you'll pardon the pun, please) to film technology at all - and why should they?

Yes, I realize that many here will post that their kids, grandkids, local urchins and waifs, etc, have all 'discovered' film and how funky cool it is and they're all setting up darkrooms and turning their backs on technology because they realize how evil it is - or whatever - but that's not the trend. Like the kids who have 'discovered' vinyl LP's - they may represent a small fraction of a percent of the market, but CD sales have not lost any ground to LP's, even if LP's have found a brief respite from oblivion. LP's are not 'back' in any meaningful sense.

What the heck. I never liked being mainstream anyway.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

[Simon Larbalestier]

SNIP:

Technology Skipping: Many parts of the world that have, for one reason or another, never had a middle-class or a photo-taking culture are now joining the digital world. And they're not waiting in line to have land-lines installed in villages that have never owned a phone so that they can make a call - they're going straight to cell phones. Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

sorry to edit your post Bill all the points you made are very valid and i agree with what you say - this mobile phone comment one is certainly the case in Cambodia. I've never seen so many colour screen mobile phones in a place where the kids can only go to school for half of the day and the TV (B/W) runs off a car battery. But you can sing along to favourite Khmer pop tunes downloaded as MP3 files on your mobile.

i'm way off topic now.

[Andy K]

When out on my bike I often cycle up to an observation deck (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/Minitar1/RFF/SFJ2.jpg) along the seafront. Through the summer it will be busy with tourists etc. all taking pictures of the promenade and pier with their p&s cameras, some film, mostly digital... what I have noticed is that when they want a picture of themselves, although they are surrounded by other people with cameras like theirs, they will always approach the guy with a camera bag and slr or rangefinder around his neck (me) and ask for their picture taken. It happens so much I am considering charging.

[ClaremontPhoto]

Yes, I see technology skipping here. There is no recorded music on vinyl, just CD's and MP3's.

[JohnL]

No doubt they reason that if you can actually use a non-automatic camera then you are a photographic genius ...

[jtzordon]

I can't remember the last time I saw someone using a film camera; I don't think I've ever seen someone using a rangefinder. This in the past two and a half years of use. All I see are digital p&s.

[KoNickon]

Andy, I take it you mean they ask to have you take their picture with their camera. Sounds like a compliment -- the guy with the old camera knows what he's doing; ask him to take it.

[Hamster]

I think now is a good oppurtunity to recoup some of the lost ground in photography in the last few decades, I am in particular referring to those negative association with paparazzi and people being generally annoyed when they have a camera pointed at them.

Film RF having the form factor that they have will hopefully in future be equated as different, it is like a lot of people don;t feel so threatened when I point at them with a TLR, but using a SLR often are very intimidating.If film users are no longer being pigeonholed as as some other groups of photographer, then I think it can even be a good thing.

[kully]

Thinking about it, I've never seen anyone using a rangefinder either. Apart from myself in the mirror.

There was a press photographer at a beer festival I went to a couple of weeks back with his Canon DSLR, he asked what my rangefinder was.... :D

[ch1]

When out on my bike I often cycle up to an observation deck (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/Minitar1/RFF/SFJ2.jpg) along the seafront. Through the summer it will be busy with tourists etc. all taking pictures of the promenade and pier with their p&s cameras, some film, mostly digital... what I have noticed is that when they want a picture of themselves, although they are surrounded by other people with cameras like theirs, they will always approach the guy with a camera bag and slr or rangefinder around his neck (me) and ask for their picture taken. It happens so much I am considering charging.

Yes, I agree. FWIW, a lot of people still seem to equate film camera users with "competent" picture taker! They may well be thinking that this guy is really out of touch - but at least they recognize "talent"! :D

[Kim Coxon]

Bearing in mind the reputation of "The Fringe" in Edinburgh, I am quite happy to be considered on the fringe.

Kim

[Al Patterson]

Darkkavenger: It's in Antigua, Guatemala

Simon: No, I don't mean it as a joke. Out of all the people in my circle, nobody, I mean NOBODY uses film. Not in school, not in my family, and rarely on the street. For every film camera I see, I find 20 digital Point and shoots. Hence the use of the term "fringe."


The funny thing is, I see more film cameras than digital.. Then again, most of my friends are over 50 and computer phobic.

I have both BTW.

[kmack]

When out on my bike I often cycle up to an observation deck (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/Minitar1/RFF/SFJ2.jpg) along the seafront. Through the summer it will be busy with tourists etc. all taking pictures of the promenade and pier with their p&s cameras, some film, mostly digital... what I have noticed is that when they want a picture of themselves, although they are surrounded by other people with cameras like theirs, they will always approach the guy with a camera bag and slr or rangefinder around his neck (me) and ask for their picture taken. It happens so much I am considering charging.

If you really want to draw a crowd, drag out a large format camera and tripod.
It's a real traffic stopper. I borrowed a Crown Graphic and large heavy tripod and went down to Harpers Ferry to see if I really wanted to get into large format. Some of the folks thought I was some kind of living history display.

[ch1]

If you really want to draw a crowd, drag out a large format camera and tripod.
It's a real traffic stopper. I borrowed a Crown Graphic and large heavy tripod and went down to Harpers Ferry to see if I really wanted to get into large format. Some of the folks thought I was some kind of living history display.

ROTFLMAO :D :D

[markinlondon]

Strangely I'd agree with Andy's experience. I often get asked to take people's pictures in front of tourist sites. I'm then handed a digital P&S I have no idea how to operate. I wonder if they like the results?

Mark

[FrankS]

If you really want to draw a crowd, drag out a large format camera and tripod.
It's a real traffic stopper. I borrowed a Crown Graphic and large heavy tripod and went down to Harpers Ferry to see if I really wanted to get into large format. Some of the folks thought I was some kind of living history display.


That's what we are, that's what it's come down to: we are living history displays!

(Great observation, Kmack!)

[bmattock]

Actually, what I have been enjoying lately is to pull out an inexpensive RF of the 'small but capable' variety (think Oly RC) and use that. I get ignored by the digicam crowd (they assume I have a digicam too) and looked down upon by the snobs with both SLR and DSLRs who think my little camera is not very capable. Hehehehe. OK with me.

I went to a train exhibit recently, took my Oly 35 ECR, a rangefinder even smaller than an RC, but with the same lens (no manual override, though). I noticed a lot of guys with older film SLRs, which was nice - one guy even had a Vivitar 285 mounted and a piece of white foamcore taped to the top of it to create an ad hoc bounce / diffuser - not many know what that's for anymore. But they all kind of 'sneered' at my little camera. Well, a couple of those shots are in my gallery. I don't consider them awful as far as the camera's technical ability goes. My composition skills...well...but that's not the camera's fault.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

[planetjoe]

This is a great thread.

A couple weekends ago, I was hired by a friend of mine to shoot a wedding. He's a digital-only shooter, and he and his second camera guy covered the wedding like they normally do, producing around 12GB of images for the day. But since he knew me as the B&W RF shooter I am, he contracted me as a film consultant for the day. Weird - but don't get me wrong, it was a lot a fun. Plus-X, Tri-X, and some D3200 thrown in for good measure, and my Canon P complimenting his 20D.

So, ten rolls of film (and a lot of scanning) later, he's got some images (and good ones, IMHO) he felt he couldn't get any other way. Now, whether that's true or not I can't really say, nor would I want to speculate here. Desaturation, Channel Mixing, or any preferred digital process aside, of course.

But what was interesting was our discussion of this new "service" being a novel addition to his work, as far as his typical clients were concerned. Clients, that is, who maybe wouldn't otherwise be able to find it from another photographer, I guess...now, that's some message to digest, especially in light of what we're talking about here.

...oh, and a guest from the wedding cornered me in the parking lot before I left, asking, "...is that a rangefinder you're shooting with?" The conversation that followed was great.


Cheers,
--joe.

[Ash]

Swindon has so many camera shops, and I see so few people taking photo's. This is not a very big town centre, but at the top of the high street theres a mainly digital camera shop, plus another solely digital shop a hundred yards away, down the bottom is my favourite 'Peter Gilberts' vintage camera shop, and almost next to each other there is Great Western Camera's and also T4 Camera's. Then further down there is a Jessops. This doesnt include all the shops like Dixons that are also in the high street!

For all these shops you'd expect the town to be full of people taking snapshots.

Today for the first time in months I saw someone taking photos; a man with an SLR. Nikon.


As he stood in the middle of a main road to photograph us all waiting on the bus, I couldnt help but photograph him on my cameraphone.

No-one battered an eyelid at his chunky SLR, but when I had my Zorki out a week ago I got more than a few scowls and questions on it!

[Michiel]

This is a great thread, I recognise a lot in it.

So film is fringe now? That's great, now all I need is a nose ring and some black eyeliner and I'm all edge, no mainstreams.

I have to agree that when I walk around with my rangefinder which obviously isn't a digital camera, and started expertly turn the dials and knobs with the obscure markings, most people automatically assume I'm an awesome picture taker :)

It doesn't only go for film though, all my friends in Holland know I listen to LPs. I do so because I like the old technology, gives me a good feeling you know? But they all assume I'm some sort of audiophile and know everything about music and stuff. I don't :)

[bmattock]

And in the 'everything old is new again' department, you can get a PS plugin that simulates film grain. I'm sure that in due time, there will be one that simulates scratches and dust, naff exposure, and focusing errors. Maybe tilt horizons as well.

And as far as music goes, there are already plenty of digitally-recorded music files that have simulated pop and scratch noises.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

[Andy K]

And as far as music goes, there are already plenty of digitally-recorded music files that have simulated pop and scratch noises.

That has been par for the course in RnB for over ten years, bands like Blackstreet and Jodeci spring to mind.

[kully]

No-one battered an eyelid at his chunky SLR, but when I had my Zorki out a week ago I got more than a few scowls and questions on it!


What kind of scowls did you get in Swindon? I'm wondering whether their the same scowls I get in Reading...

[Michiel]

Another thing I notice about film cameras is that, because you see so few of them (especially here in Asia), they have become great conversation starters. Even the most weathered and experienced looking photographer will politely enter into a conversation with me, once he recognises the rangefinder on my wrist. I'm young, so they often recoil a bit when I speak to them, but calm down when they realise I actually know that their Nikon is an F and that I wasn't asking about megapixels but aperture and composition :)

I'm using plural above because I often try to strike up a conversation with a photographer who doesn't look too busy. So relax, next time some young guy with his hair pointing in all directions walks up to you it might just be me ;)

[edit]
oh, by the way, today a classmate talked to me about my camera. I told him I was shooting b&w 100 iso and he went "What, you can't change the iso? Then how can you shoot when it's dark or light? Can you only shoot at midday outside?"

I started to compare my f1.7 to the average aperture of a digital p&s, but figured why even bother, so used the excuse that my Chinese wasn't good enough to explain to get the hull out of that discussion :D

This is a link to one of my f1.7 shots of my classmates (http://home.planet.nl/~kemel002/misc/03.jpg)

[Ash]

By scowls I mean general dirty looks. The Zorki shutter is quite loud (maybe it's just me) and it makes those closer to me look around occasionally.. I also had a lady see it in my hand (about waist level) and give me a dirty look, obviously not wishing herself photographed


This is much in contrast to a guy who came over and asked me all about it (while i was looking at a zippo display at a key-cutters) and seemed really interested

[bmattock]

oh, by the way, today a classmate talked to me about my camera. I told him I was shooting b&w 100 iso and he went "What, you can't change the iso? Then how can you shoot when it's dark or light? Can you only shoot at midday outside?"

I started to compare my f1.7 to the average aperture of a digital p&s, but figured why even bother, so used the excuse that my Chinese wasn't good enough to explain the details to get the hull out of that discussion :D

I took a photo of my neighbor recently, using a 150mm as a portrait lens on a 35mm SLR, shooting at f2.7 (wide open for that lens). DOF was so shallow that his whole face wasn't even in focus (as I intended) and the background was blown completely out of focus. He found that interesting and asked me how I did that - some Photoshop trick?

I found that I was at a loss to explain - he has no basis, so we could not have the conversation that would have explained it. Not that he's a dumb guy - on the contrary, he's a school teacher and quite smart. But he has nothing in his head about cameras - except that they 'take pictures'.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=26956

It is getting increasingly hard to have a conversation about photography with anyone who is not an active FILM photographer. I love film and digital, but I have to admit - most digicam users know nothing about photography. That doesn't mean they can't take a good photograph, just that they neither know nor do they care about such niceties as aperture, shuter speed, etc - just as you said.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

[kully]

Yeah, I get the same - a look akin to one crossed between one I might get if I was about to wee on the pavement and holding a small bomb.

oh well...

As for film vs. digital, I'm not emotionally attached to spending my time developing B&W &c. Once digital capture has matured and you can get random grain rather than horrid bands (or the digital sheen that noise reduction gives you) and build quality on a par with film cameras £ for £ I'll be happy to sell or put in a closet my film cameras and go completely digital.

[Ash]

In regards to Bill's comments, that has reminded me of something.

A good female friend of mine, fellow student/artist/photographer has pretty bad money problems, and her cousin was bought a brand new 350D dslr. Her cousin uses it as a point and shoot, and admitted to not having any idea what aperture is. This enraged her, considering she would (hopefully) use it to a fuller extent.

The same happened with a girl in my photography class (before she dropped the subject). Her parents bought her a new dSLR, and she said "oh, I mainly use it for my MySpace photo's, but I have to hold it arms length to get my face in focus".

Turns out this is the same for a lot of 350D users. Its a new toy, and many don't have a clue about DoF or shutter speed or ISO.

It's a pity

[StuartR]

I had kind of a weird experience the other day. I was at the local photo shop and a younger father came in with his young son (probably about 35 and 5 respectively). He asked the girl at the counter for a good general film for his son's first roll. She gave him superia 400, and he gave the kid the film and said "Now this will be your first roll of film..."
He wasn't a photographer, as he didn't know anything about film, yet he was still giving film to his son for a first roll. I thought it pretty unusual. And I will say that film is very much a fringe phenomenon everywhere I have lived in the last couple years (CA, NY, CT, Japan...)

[kully]

DOF was so shallow that his whole face wasn't even in focus (as I intended) and the background was blown completely out of focus. He found that interesting and asked me how I did that - some Photoshop trick?


he he, I had the same thing with a roll that caught a light leak in my changing bag and which I also underdeveloped. I was asked whether it was some funky Photoshop effect... :D The bloke liked it.

Here's an example:

http://superkully.com/copper_img/albums/uploads/reading_beer_fest_06/bw/normal_a4.jpg

[ch1]

In regards to Bill's comments, that has reminded me of something.

A good female friend of mine, fellow student/artist/photographer has pretty bad money problems, and her cousin was bought a brand new 350D dslr. Her cousin uses it as a point and shoot, and admitted to not having any idea what aperture is. This enraged her, considering she would (hopefully) use it to a fuller extent.

The same happened with a girl in my photography class (before she dropped the subject). Her parents bought her a new dSLR, and she said "oh, I mainly use it for my MySpace photo's, but I have to hold it arms length to get my face in focus".

Turns out this is the same for a lot of 350D users. Its a new toy, and many don't have a clue about DoF or shutter speed or ISO.

It's a pity

Yes, for now, dSLRs have become the "camera of choice" amongst what we here in the US call "the suburban soccer mom" set. It is a "status symbol" even though few know how to use it other then by setting it on "Auto".

I believe that these folks are one of the key market target groups that Sony and the other EVF manufacturers are now pursuing.

[Laurence]

That's what we are, that's what it's come down to: we are living history displays!

(Great observation, Kmack!)

Speak for yourself Frank! :cool:

[dmr]

If I may digress a minute, I'll cut-paste part of a conversation on "another network" regarding various once-high-tech items becoming retro. Some may know what network I am talking about ...


>So here we all are on Usenet,

Wow, I am getting old. Usenet is getting kinda retro in the Blog Age,
huh? :)

>looking at Annie's pictures shot on
>Kodachrome with a ... Pentax Spotmatic, was it?

Actually, those Kodachromes were done with a Canon QL17 GIII, even more
of a "retro" design than the Spotmatic. :)

>Does it get any more retro than this?

Actually, the combination of 21st. century film and 1970's glass is
very hard to beat. :)


And yes, I do notice others' cameras, and when I notice something that is obviously not the Latest And Greatest<tm> I'll take note, and sometimes say something, as have people to me when they see me shooting with the GIII or the Pentax.

However, I'll often not notice when somebody uses a film P&S that looks similar to a digital P&S, and I know I don't always recognize what's a newer film SLR and what's a DSLR unless I look closely.

Oh well, and they said that blue eyeshadow would never come back in style! :) :)

[bmattock]

Turns out this is the same for a lot of 350D users. Its a new toy, and many don't have a clue about DoF or shutter speed or ISO.

It's a pity

Canon is actively running television adverts here in the USA for the Digital Rebel XT (350D in the UK). They pitch it as a camera for the family to capture what was once called a "Kodak Moment" by Kodak pitchmen.

I miss the old James Garner / Marriette Hartley commercials.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

[kbg32]

I miss the old James Garner / Marriette Hartley commercials.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks


Those were wonderful commercials. People thought they were married.

[MikeCaine]

Andy, I take it you mean they ask to have you take their picture with their camera. Sounds like a compliment -- the guy with the old camera knows what he's doing; ask him to take it.

When I'm on holiday I'm normally toting a Canon 20D and/or a Canon 1nHS. I find people are always asking me to take a photo of them with their P&S cameras. I guess they think -

a) I know what I'm doing

b) I'm not going to run off with their camera

PS - Went for a walk today with my Canon IVsb. First time I've used film since the last millennium. Apparently I have to take this little canister to some bloke who can make pictures from it?

[bmattock]

When I'm on holiday I'm normally toting a Canon 20D and/or a Canon 1nHS. I find people are always asking me to take a photo of them with their camera P&S cameras. I guess they think -

a) I know what I'm doing

b) I'm not going to run off with their camera

Which makes it even more hilarious if you take their digital camera and then chuck it over the cliff or whatever natural scenic highlight you happen to be viewing at the time.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

[StuartR]

I get the same thing with a Mamiya 7. It does not matter if it is film or digital, it is just if you have a pro looking camera that they have not seen before or don't really understand, they will assume you are a pro or big time camera user and ask you to take their picture. It happens all the time. I advise just rolling with it.

[Benjamin Marks]

Film is in the fridge.

[boarini2003]

Bearing in mind the reputation of "The Fringe" in Edinburgh, I am quite happy to be considered on the fringe.

Kim

I totally agree! Us film users are fringe, in a cool fringe kind of way... ;-)

Interesting how the thread has turned out so far. It is weird, but using film IS associated with being knowledgeable. I agree, in the sense that a mechanical camera user at least knows what speed and aperture are, and their effect on images.

[back alley]

'film consultant'

i love that!

joe

[Andy K]

PS - Went for a walk today with my Canon IVsb. First time I've used film since the last millennium. Apparently I have to take this little canister to some bloke who can make pictures from it?

Well... he'll actually make pictures from the stuff inside the canister... but you're in the right ball park. Think of it as a cylindrical memory card being taken to the kiosk.

[DougK]

I kinda like the nods of respect I get when I walk into a photo store and ask for 120 film. Well, it's either respect or they're humoring the crazy guy, don't know which for sure...

[planetjoe]

'film consultant'

i love that!

joe

Well, I'm not going to lie to you. I made him call me that. It has a certain "ring" to it, no?


--joe.

[clarence]

I kinda like the nods of respect I get when I walk into a photo store and ask for 120 film. Well, it's either respect or they're humoring the crazy guy, don't know which for sure...

For me it's definitely the latter. The Pro's and soccer moms (and dads) have all moved on to digital, so we all know who's using the 120 film, don't we.

Clarence

[MelanieC]

I just got an email announcement about some short course from B&H. It covers a number of topics, all related to digital photography. One of them was "how to make digital look like film."

I'm one of those people who doesn't know how to use my dSLR. When I bought it, using an equipment budget fortunately, I fully intended to get into more serious photography with it. But I started using film cameras (that weren't P&S) at about the same time, and got way more interested in those so I haven't invested the time necessary to figure out the D70s. And yes, with all those tiny menus, and the fact that it's the only SLR of any kind I've ever used, it'll take me some time. As of now, the D70s is basically a giant P&S and yes, it is sad.

My friends think it's kind of odd that I've discovered film photography and gotten so interested in it so fast, but we all grew up with film cameras (I'm 33) so I don't get the reactions from my friends that some of you have.

A couple of weeks ago I was at my brother's wedding, and used my Leica and my Rollleiflex to take portraits and candid shots. A couple of the younger guests tried looking at the back of the Leica and were puzzled that there was no screen there. The official photographer, who was using a giant Canon dSLR, asked me about the Rollei but had no idea how it worked. (That's OK, neither did I six months ago.) Most others didn't realize the Rollei was a camera at all.

The officiating judge, on the other hand, asked me about the Leica at the rehearsal dinner (I thought he was posing for a shot -- it turned out he was actually staring hard at my camera). He's judged some pretty high-profile cases, and mentioned that for these cases he only allowed Leicas in the courtroom -- no SLRs of any kind, film or digital -- because their shutters are so quiet.

My Leica gets two reactions from strangers. Many don't notice it, or dismiss it as just some old camera. The other reaction is this kind of weird religious awe.

[bmattock]

I kinda like the nods of respect I get when I walk into a photo store and ask for 120 film. Well, it's either respect or they're humoring the crazy guy, don't know which for sure...

I'll tell you the truth. I love to visit camera stores, and due to the fact that I used to travel for a living, I've been fortunate enough to have visited a number of the 'high end' and well-known shops. With the single exception of Houston Camera, where I met a kindred spirit, I have seldom met such a collection of ill-mannered snots. Sorry, but I mean that. One place in Albuquerque, the guy was so rude to my wife that I threatened to march down there and settle his hash (my wife stopped me) but I don't put up with people talking to my wife the way he did.

In fact, that brings up a bunch of ugly memories. Visiting B&H, which is amazing and I think everyone should do - I was admonished for approaching a counter before being invited to do so and told to step back. OK, get this, guy in the funny hat. I'm a customer. You want to see me leave, just say so. Order me around and that's what you get - me leaving. OK, nuff said - they're great to deal with via web, and very honest and I like them in general.

Well anyway, sorry to rain on anyone's parade.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

[DougK]

Don't worry, Bill, you're not raining on my parade, you're pretty much correct. Many shops, not just camera stores, are staffed with rather non-customer-oriented folks. I avoid those stores once I identify them. I'm just lucky enough to have a couple of local camera shops where service is a priority.

I really miss the person at my local Ritz I referred to as Camera Girl. She understood film and it was very easy to explain what I wanted because she shoots film herself; although young, she tried digital and found she couldn't do what she wanted that way. She's since moved on to a custom print shop somewhere in the area. Someday I'll find out which one and send some business her way.

[StuartR]

My experience is that the guys at B&H are really rude. Not the guys working the floor (selling the cameras etc), but the ones at the checkout counters. On the other hand, the guys at Adorama have all been really nice to me. Nice to the extent that they closed the store down on a Friday afternoon while I was still there because they were trying to find something for me in the back. The guys at the counter were like: "Hey, don't worry about it, we still have time to get home (before sundown)." There is always the normal New York speed/briskness in the service, but the guys are really nice. I much prefer Adorama in person.

[kully]

... With the single exception of Houston Camera, where I met a kindred spirit, I have seldom met such a collection of ill-mannered snots....

Seems some things are the same all over the world... With the exception of a shop in Maidenhead which has since closed down (Focal Point) and one bloke in London Camera Exchange in Reading, all camera shops I've been to have been staffed by people who think/wish they were PhDs in cameras and photography.

Not something to be bothered with because you buy your stuff and leave but infuriating when their trying to wrench a lens off your camera without pressing the lever release in all the way or pretending you're asking for something they don't have because they don't know what it is.

[shutterflower]

I regularly have people ask me if my camera is digital. They never assume anything because it looks so unusual.

I have seen only one major film camera out and about since the digital revolution. That is, I have only seen one outside my circle of friends and fellow photography people). I was having lunch at a snooty restaraunt in Montecito, CA . . .you Brooke's people probably know the name . . ..it's right on the ocean. The table next to us sat three people, and one of them was a young woman (30s) who was presented with a Mamiya 7II as a gift. I watched and drooled, my Nikon D70 quickly hidden from view out of embarrassment.

Since then, I have only seen a handful of small little AF 35mm cameras. Like Nikon N65s. Digital is absolutely pervasive, across ages and cultures and styles of shooting. Like cellphones - eveyrone's got one, and they treat them as bodyparts. Stuff it in the purse kind of things. I just got my sister the Olympus 720SW. Snapshot, snapshot, snapshot.

Every now and then, I get a grin from someone who watches me load film, wind, focus, adjust aperture, shoot, wind. . .like they are happy to see it done. ANd they usually have a DSLR or EVF camera in their hands.

[ruben]

It's funny, but lately I have observed that it's "cool" or "contrary" ;-) to use mechanical cameras and film. That's how much things have changed. Film users are now a fringe group!


I AM FRINGE.

AND HAVE ALWAYS BEEN FRINGE.

WHO EVER IS AFRAID OF BEING FRINGE, WILL FOREVER LIVE AN ESCENTIALLY FRINGE LIFE.

BECAUSE I AM NOT AFRAID TO BE FRINGE, I AM A FREE MAN.

I AM PROUD OF BEING FRINGE.

I AM A SMALL FRINGE MAN. GREAT FRINGE WOMEN AND MEN CHANGED THE COURSE OF HISTORY AND REVOLUTIONAZED SCIENCE AND ART.

[StuartR]

I regularly have people ask me if my camera is digital. They never assume anything because it looks so unusual.

I have seen only one major film camera out and about since the digital revolution. That is, I have only seen one outside my circle of friends and fellow photography people). I was having lunch at a snooty restaraunt in Montecito, CA . . .you Brooke's people probably know the name . . ..it's right on the ocean. The table next to us sat three people, and one of them was a young woman (30s) who was presented with a Mamiya 7II as a gift. I watched and drooled, my Nikon D70 quickly hidden from view out of embarrassment.

Since then, I have only seen a handful of small little AF 35mm cameras. Like Nikon N65s. Digital is absolutely pervasive, across ages and cultures and styles of shooting. Like cellphones - eveyrone's got one, and they treat them as bodyparts. Stuff it in the purse kind of things. I just got my sister the Olympus 720SW. Snapshot, snapshot, snapshot.

Every now and then, I get a grin from someone who watches me load film, wind, focus, adjust aperture, shoot, wind. . .like they are happy to see it done. ANd they usually have a DSLR or EVF camera in their hands.

You were in Montecito??? You should have let me know! I live about 3 miles away in downtown SB. But in any case, one nice thing about Brooks is that it allows for some seriously well stocked photo stores in Santa Barbara. But beyond that, the majority of the people who work in those stores and labs are Brooks students (or former Brooks students), and they really know what they are talking about. Brooks still starts all students with 4x5 cameras, and so the students know film, cameras and all sorts of accessories. When I was learning photography it was in large part to helpful Brooks students at the local stores who would recommend films to me, or tell me secret tips like turning on the shower on the hottest setting to remove the dust from the air before hanging your negs. While most of them don't know the older stuff (and Leica stuff) very well, they know photography, which is a huge bonus. They are working at a camera store because they are studying photography and not just for money, and it is hard to convey how big a benefit that actually is for the customer.

[shutterflower]

You were in Montecito??? You should have let me know! I live about 3 miles away in downtown SB. But in any case, one nice thing about Brooks is that it allows for some seriously well stocked photo stores in Santa Barbara. But beyond that, the majority of the people who work in those stores and labs are Brooks students (or former Brooks students), and they really know what they are talking about. Brooks still starts all students with 4x5 cameras, and so the students know film, cameras and all sorts of accessories. When I was learning photography it was in large part to helpful Brooks students at the local stores who would recommend films to me, or tell me secret tips like turning on the shower on the hottest setting to remove the dust from the air before hanging your negs. While most of them don't know the older stuff (and Leica stuff) very well, they know photography, which is a huge bonus. They are working at a camera store because they are studying photography and not just for money, and it is hard to convey how big a benefit that actually is for the customer.

I go down there once a year, usually for a month or so. Have not been in a while, though. Not since last summer. LOVE the place. Montecito beach used to be a secret - now flooded with UCSB crowds. I'm most likely moving back to LA in not too long. Looking forward the the Strand, Patrick's roadhouse in Malibu/Santa Monica, Montecito, Samy's Cameras in SB and LA. And the El Segundo/Palos Verdes area.

Just remembered the name of the place : The Biltmore (Four Seasons). Go there.

[StuartR]

Yeah, I figured it was the Biltmore. It is a nice place to have drinks...gorgeous and right on the beach. Well, unfortunately I am not going to be around this summer (I am off to Iceland), but I will be there for a week or two in August before moving back to New York for good. If you are around in August, let me know and we can meet up.

[Simon Larbalestier]

My Leica gets two reactions from strangers. Many don't notice it, or dismiss it as just some old camera. The other reaction is this kind of weird religious awe.

I've not experienced the second reaction Melanie! but the first is EXACTLY why film works for me. The photographer becomes almost invisible to the subject he/she is photographing. Recent projects have invloved getting up close in what are often difficult situations - i know i couldn't capture that sort of intimacy with a digital camera
- the problem for me is convincing the Charities and NGO's to work with film and it being B/W....

[MikeCaine]

Well... he'll actually make pictures from the stuff inside the canister... but you're in the right ball park. Think of it as a cylindrical memory card being taken to the kiosk.

Ah, got it now!

Apparently I'll see my prints on Monday. I should have gone straight to the big chain film processor but I'm trying to support my little local independent camera shop.

[Simon Larbalestier]

This talk of film users being on the fringes prompted me to watch David Hemmings in "Blow Up"
great to see big prints, Nikons, Hassy's, old lighting equipment and everything else not to mention his car!

[Kim Coxon]

I am not a number, I am a free man

Ha Ha Ha Ha

Kim

I AM FRINGE.

AND HAVE ALWAYS BEEN FRINGE.

WHO EVER IS AFRAID OF BEING FRINGE, WILL FOREVER LIVE AN ESCENTIALLY FRINGE LIFE.

BECAUSE I AM NOT AFRAID TO BE FRINGE, I AM A FREE MAN.

I AM PROUD OF BEING FRINGE.

I AM A SMALL FRINGE MAN. GREAT FRINGE WOMEN AND MEN CHANGED THE COURSE OF HISTORY AND REVOLUTIONAZED SCIENCE AND ART.

[pvdhaar]

And in the 'everything old is new again' department, you can get a PS plugin that simulates film grain. I'm sure that in due time, there will be one that simulates scratches and dust, naff exposure, and focusing errors. Maybe tilt horizons as well.

Hey Bill, you just gave a 100% accurate description of what my dSLR does all the time :D

To be fair, some of it is user error, my nose always pokes into the AF selector, the dust is due to changing lenses too much, and I probably should select a different colour space.. and the others I can correct (viewfinder mask is slightly off-level) by either rotate in PS/PSP or by using the AF marks as a guide..

[ch1]

My experience is that the guys at B&H are really rude. Not the guys working the floor (selling the cameras etc), but the ones at the checkout counters. On the other hand, the guys at Adorama have all been really nice to me. Nice to the extent that they closed the store down on a Friday afternoon while I was still there because they were trying to find something for me in the back. The guys at the counter were like: "Hey, don't worry about it, we still have time to get home (before sundown)." There is always the normal New York speed/briskness in the service, but the guys are really nice. I much prefer Adorama in person.

I favor Adorama over B&H for a variety of reasons like those cited above. While it also has a two-step purchasing process (first you tell them what you want then you go to checkout and pay where the item is handed to you) they seem to handle it much more effectively and politely.

But as noted, it is a busy place and it always helps to know what you want. It's not the kind of place to "browse" - although it may be quieter on Sunday AMs (I spend weekends outside the City so have never been there then).

I find that one way to faciiltate my business there is to "shop first" on the website so I know what I want and what the cost is before going to the store. Contrary to what some may think - when it comes to new gear, accessories etc. there is no "bargaining". I've never purchased used gear there so don't know about that.

Oh, and the other reason I prefer Adorama is for some reasons I mentioned earlier. Adorama is still really a camera (and telescopes) store - I don't have to wade past TVs, computers, AV equipment etc. to get to the "good stuff"! :D