3,000 Zeiss Ikons Since November

[orkspace]

From the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle (http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060513/BUSINESS/605130316/1001):

(May 13, 2006) — Zeiss back with new camera

Executives from Carl Zeiss AG of Germany were in Rochester on Thursday to present George Eastman House with a milestone camera for its technology collection. The new Zeiss Ikon 35mm rangefinder is the company's first camera in more than 30 years.

Zeiss has a history of excellence in optics and a devoted following among professional photographers. The company pulled out of the camera business in the early 1970s but recently introduced a new model for photographers still interested in film.

An executive said the company has sold 3,000 cameras since November.

...

Pretty cool. :-)

[grantray]

Gald to hear that. One of my B&H guys said today they still have Limited Editions and have only sold two bodies so far. One those was me. Good news for me, because I want a second body. I love this camera.

-grant

[back alley]

i want a black one...

[grantray]

Yeah, I figure the chrome body for color film and a black body for B/W.

[ch1]

Gald to hear that. One of my B&H guys said today they still have Limited Editions and have only sold two bodies so far. One those was me. Good news for me, because I want a second body. I love this camera.

-grant

Grant.

Sorry, but not surprised to hear that B&H has only sold two of these cameras. B&H isn't really a camera store anymore!

Notice for All Here: B&H is NOT a camera dealer! At least anymore.

They now advertise heavily on NYC radio stations that they are an all-round electronics dealer. One of there current ads has a conversation like this:

1: I hear you went to B&H for a tripod.

2: Yeah, but instead I got an I-pod.

1: An I-pod instead of a tri-pod? At B&H?

2: Oh yeah, they have all the I-pod models.

1: Wow! Got to get to B&H for an I-pod!


Same with HDTV's, computers etc,

B&H now considers itself an "electronics store". It is trying to maintain market position against the "invasion" into NYC of such chain sellers as Best Buy!

I figure that many of you outside NYC still think of B&H as a "camera store", But check out their website and print catalog - I think you are in for a rude awakening! :(

[grantray]

I just walk past that stuff on the way in and head for the RF and used sections. I also avoid that store like the plague on Sundays.

BTW, going to my first Yankees game on June 5, vs. the Red Sox. I'll let you know what I think if I remain sober enough to remember.

-grant

[ch1]

I just walk past that stuff on the way in and head for the RF and used sections. I also avoid that store like the plague on Sundays.

BTW, going to my first Yankees game on June 5, vs. the Red Sox. I'll let you know what I think if I remain sober enough to remember.

-grant

1) While I am not Jewish, I do very much respect the fact that they are closed Saturdays. Sadly, this may be a "killer" for them if they decide that the likes of Best Buy are now their competition (e.g. open 7-days). I guess "nothing stays the same" in NYC so what can you do?

2) OMG, the Red Sux are coming back? And we need pitching! Can anyone here throw a baseball? ;)

[boarini2003]

It's really great to hear that the Ikon is selling. With the complete digital domination of photography in recent times, it's good to see something film sellling.

[darkkavenger]

I want one too :D I'm glad that the camera is appreciated and that it creates a safe emulation & competition in the field of high-end film cameras :)

[Bertram2]

An executive said the company has sold 3,000 cameras since November.
Pretty cool. :-)

Hmm, not bad for a new niche product in times of dead film ? :D

Seems the Zeiss folks have done their market research homework pretty fine ?

And why do i think the new ZI-D , which I suppose to be in the drawer already, ready for marketing, will have Nikon imaging technology inside ? Photokina 2006 will tell us.
:D :D
bertram

[Fred]

i want a black one...


Now Joe, thats just greedy :D You gotta leave some for the rest of us :p

I used to prefer black, but having recently got a new (very old stock) Bessa R in silver for a day to day camera it's sorrta grown on me. I do feel slightly more conspicuous though than with my black M. At least the sliver version looks good with either black or silver lenses mounted.

Can't help wondering how many R2a/R3a M7 and MPs sold in the same time though. A sales chart would be interesting, just for curiosity thats all.

EDIT:

Really good to see a celebration of a new film camera in these times.

[back alley]

i want black because it's the only other colour available...then i can carry the 25 & the 50 at the same time.

;)

[VinceC]

I think they've proved that $1,200 to $1,400 US is a viable price for high-end niche consumer products.

It'll be very interesting to see how they approach digital.

[Avotius]

I hope they sell 10000 more and take a big enough chunk out of leica to make leica sweat a bit then come out with a sub 2000 dollar rangefinder...

[Huck Finn]

I hope they sell 10000 more and take a big enough chunk out of leica to make leica sweat a bit then come out with a sub 2000 dollar rangefinder...

Avotius, I think that those numbers were first reported in March & that they also reported at that time that they were scheduled for max production capability (500 per month) for several months out, so they would seem to be on the way to achieving your goal. :)

[Buze]

What I would really love to know is /who/ buys the Leica/VC/Zeiss cameras. We all know what they are worth, we all know they use a "dead" technology (film, ewwww) but still some people come up with new models, new lens etc.. So /someone/ must be buying them. Is it JUST for the japanese market and us on rff ? :D

If you look at VC, I went to the only high street shop that sells that in London, and they have no stock (Didn't even have a hood for my 40mm). I don't think they sell 5 cameras a month... So who buy these ?

I'm curious really; I hope there is a huge market somewhere in Japan, where people have realized digital was not the new world order and owning a neat film camera was the cool thing to do...

[ch1]

What I would really love to know is /who/ buys the Leica/VC/Zeiss cameras. We all know what they are worth, we all know they use a "dead" technology (film, ewwww) but still some people come up with new models, new lens etc.. So /someone/ must be buying them. Is it JUST for the japanese market and us on rff ? :D

If you look at VC, I went to the only high street shop that sells that in London, and they have no stock (Didn't even have a hood for my 40mm). I don't think they sell 5 cameras a month... So who buy these ?

I'm curious really; I hope there is a huge market somewhere in Japan, where people have realized digital was not the new world order and owning a neat film camera was the cool thing to do...

I think it is all relative. Remember, it took six-months to sell 3000 ZIs. For a mid-priced film RF that's pretty good. Now, imagine how may digital cameras were sold by any one of the well-known makers in the last six months. You're looking at tens of thousands!

[ywenz]

Grant.

Sorry, but not surprised to hear that B&H has only sold two of these cameras. B&H isn't really a camera store anymore!

Notice for All Here: B&H is NOT a camera dealer! At least anymore.

They now advertise heavily on NYC radio stations that they are an all-round electronics dealer. One of there current ads has a conversation like this:

1: I hear you went to B&H for a tripod.

2: Yeah, but instead I got an I-pod.

1: An I-pod instead of a tri-pod? At B&H?

2: Oh yeah, they have all the I-pod models.

1: Wow! Got to get to B&H for an I-pod!


Same with HDTV's, computers etc,

B&H now considers itself an "electronics store". It is trying to maintain market position against the "invasion" into NYC of such chain sellers as Best Buy!

I figure that many of you outside NYC still think of B&H as a "camera store", But check out their website and print catalog - I think you are in for a rude awakening! :(

Go to www.bhphotovideo.com ( note the URL ). What do you see on their main page? All audio/video/photo links hmmppp yeah.. ok

[Bertram2]

I hope they sell 10000 more and take a big enough chunk out of leica to make leica sweat a bit then come out with a sub 2000 dollar rangefinder...

.....which would mean a complete new design and a production running is Asia.

bertram

[leafy]

.....which would mean a complete new design and a production running is Asia.

bertram
If the Chinese could copy the Leica M back in the '50 '60, they can certainly do it now :)

[anselwannab]

3000 Cameras at $1300 is about $4 million. What do they sell to distributors and stores at? $1000? What does Mr. K sell them to Zeiss at? $700, $600?

Considering that it was not a clean sheet camera, I would think they are happy with that. Maybe half again as much revenue, maybe more in RF lenses, plus the Nikon ones.

I think Canon is fixin' to get FF sensors down market. Maybe in a couple of years the zRFd will be about $2000-$2500, used $1400 a few years after that. I can wait.

[ch1]

If the Chinese could copy the Leica M back in the '50 '60, they can certainly do it now :)

Wouldn't even have to do that. Just move the entire production facility from Portugal to Shanghai - lock, stock and barrell! :D

[KoNickon]

This may be sacrilege, but if Leica were to relocate all production to the PRC I'd have no problem with that at all -- assuming the quality control was still up to their standard. I think the Chinese have long since proven that they can make products of equal quality to anyone's. I type this on a Lenovo-made IBM ThinkPad, for instance.

I reckon there are some pretty stringent EU rules limiting outsourcing, however.

It's encouraging that so many ZIs have been purchased -- I guess there is a market for it! (I wonder how many of that number are owned my members of this list?)

[grantray]

And why do i think the new ZI-D , which I suppose to be in the drawer already, ready for marketing, will have Nikon imaging technology inside ? Photokina 2006 will tell us.
bertram

I also suspect there will be a concept model at photokina this year. It may not be a working prototype, but that wouldn't bother me. Zeiss has openly stated the lenses were designed with a digital in mind. Most likely, so was the chassis platform. Hence placing the winder on the bottom so that the rangefinder mechanism and top plate need only be modified slightly...

-grant

[Benjamin Marks]

I think you vastly overestimate the markup on cameras/electronics. Probably more like 3%.

[Socke]

And why do i think the new ZI-D , which I suppose to be in the drawer already, ready for marketing, will have Nikon imaging technology inside ? Photokina 2006 will tell us.
:D :D
bertram

Hopefully not the ill fated LBCAST sensor from the D2h. 4Mpixel cropped sensor with lots of noise over ISO800 is not what I would buy.

Even the Sony sensors in other Nikons are cropped.

No, it better be one of the bigger sensors from Kodak, Imacon etc.pp.

[einolu]

I bet they actually made more money on the lenses than on the body,

[Bertram2]

T
I reckon there are some pretty stringent EU rules limiting outsourcing, however.


There are none tho sometimes it would be better to have them. We lose 1000 jobs per day in Germany, and for the most companies it isn't a question of surviving but of how to squeeze still more return on invest out of a production.
10 -15% in Europe are now considered as not beeing enuff, you can make up to 25 % in China and so they go to China.

For Leica tho it is a question of surviving, the old fashioned elaborated design, material and the small tolerances make the assembly and the QM expensive and it is all work done by hand.

More ROI would grant enuff financial ressources for developing and innovation, a basic condition to survive nowadays. There had not been any since the 50s, they thought they would not need it.

Bertram

[Kev T]

3000 units in under a year is pretty good for Carl Zeiss, I'm sure they weren't really even thinking about tens of thousands units, not that they'd mind if it happens... :) By comparison, how many RD-1s were ever sold by Epson, anyone?

With this progress, l think CZ would be motivated to look closely at going digital... I'm looking at their ZI brochure under the heading 'Why film & not digital?' And it appears that Zeiss is going for gold with full format sensors, no cropped sensors for Oberkochen...
"When digital sensor technology takes another leap... accepting the high incident angles of a wide-angle M-mount lens to the corners of a full format sensor, you can count on us to come up with high performance digital systems..."

Now I'm tempted to hold onto the $5k I'm saving up for the Digital M! Well maybe start putting pennies into another cookie-jar for a possible ZI DRF, so I can have both!

Kev

[Kev T]

With regards the issue of out-sourcing the manufacture of an entry priced Leica, I don't think it is so simply a matter of opening a plant in China, Korea, Japan, or South-East Asia, etc...

Even at the proposed price of just under US$2k, it is a question how many fully mechanical CRF bodies they can move in a month? The rationale for out-sourcing manufacturing, works for products that are bought literally at rates of tens of thousands units per month...

A $2k mechanical CRF camera is simply not that kind of product.

Kev

[PeterL]

Hopefully not the ill fated LBCAST sensor from the D2h. 4Mpixel cropped sensor with lots of noise over ISO800 is not what I would buy.

Even the Sony sensors in other Nikons are cropped.

No, it better be one of the bigger sensors from Kodak, Imacon etc.pp.

I wouldn't mind a Fuji sensor like the one they're using in the F10/F11/F30. It's a P&S that performs at SLR levels up to 3200ISO because of it's unconventional structure (is it octagonal ?) They used to push the megapixel with it, but now they've come to their senses and they're using the extra information for better low light performance. I wonder if it would be feasible to build it in full (35mm) frame size.


Peter.

[Bertram2]

Hopefully not the ill fated LBCAST sensor from the D2h. 4Mpixel cropped sensor with lots of noise over ISO800 is not what I would buy.

Even the Sony sensors in other Nikons are cropped.

No, it better be one of the bigger sensors from Kodak, Imacon etc.pp.

Volker ,

based on the infos we have about the wide angle prob at digital RF cameras I simply can't see any solution built on the current generation of chips.

My assumption is rather that the retrofocus-like design of the Zeiss M lenses is for an optimized result with APS sized chips, not for fullformat chips.
I am not an expert tho, maybe I am wrong. A crop factor would not make sense either on the other hand.

For me an academic discussion anyway, I don't need it. RF for me is a film camera.
As long as the chip pics do not look like film at least. :angel:

OT:
Got a new replacement belt today for my Pioneer Pl 120 I bought 1973 and listened to some vinyls, first time again since '94 or so . Again I found, digital sucks !! As if the D/A converter would filter all the life out of the music ? And my CD machine isn't a cheap one , believe me ! :D

Bertram.

[RJBender]

Grant.

Sorry, but not surprised to hear that B&H has only sold two of these cameras. B&H isn't really a camera store anymore!

Notice for All Here: B&H is NOT a camera dealer! At least anymore.

They now advertise heavily on NYC radio stations that they are an all-round electronics dealer. One of there current ads has a conversation like this:

1: I hear you went to B&H for a tripod.

2: Yeah, but instead I got an I-pod.

1: An I-pod instead of a tri-pod? At B&H?

2: Oh yeah, they have all the I-pod models.

1: Wow! Got to get to B&H for an I-pod!


Same with HDTV's, computers etc,

B&H now considers itself an "electronics store". It is trying to maintain market position against the "invasion" into NYC of such chain sellers as Best Buy!

I figure that many of you outside NYC still think of B&H as a "camera store", But check out their website and print catalog - I think you are in for a rude awakening! :(


Yeah, but are their prices insane?

http://www.my-smileys.de/smileys2/FRlol.gif http://www.my-smileys.de/smileys2/cunao.gif http://www.my-smileys.de/smileys2/emotlol.gif http://www.acuramdx.org/forums/images/smilies/jester.gif


R.J.

[Huck Finn]

3000 Cameras at $1300 is about $4 million. What do they sell to distributors and stores at? $1000? What does Mr. K sell them to Zeiss at? $700, $600?

Considering that it was not a clean sheet camera, I would think they are happy with that. Maybe half again as much revenue, maybe more in RF lenses, plus the Nikon ones.

I think Canon is fixin' to get FF sensors down market. Maybe in a couple of years the zRFd will be about $2000-$2500, used $1400 a few years after that. I can wait.

Mr. K doesn't sell them to Zeiss. He doesn't own them to begin with. I would think that the arrangement is more complicated than that.

[Kev T]

Cosina is the contract manufacturer for Carl Zeiss, and perhaps in regard the manufacturing facilities at the Cosina plant, both companies share equity stakes... How does that translate to cost per unit charged by Cosina and profit taken by Carl Zeiss, only the respective bean counters can make sense of.

Kev

[Huck Finn]

Cosina is the contract manufacturer for Carl Zeiss, and perhaps in regard the manufacturing facilities at the Cosina plant, both companies share equity stakes... How does that translate to cost per unit charged by Cosina and profit taken by Carl Zeiss, only the respective bean counters can make sense of.

Kev

Exactly. And I would expect that Mr. K's rights to sell them in Japan - & through the grey market to retailers like Popflash & Cameraquest - must factor into this equation somehow. Stephen Gandy once observed that this arrangement seems to function more like a partnership.

[anselwannab]

I gotta think that there are more ways to structure the deal than you can count.

Dealer's only make 3%? Was that in response to me? $40 to stock and sell a $1300 camera sounds a bit low. Maybe for B&H that just blows them out the door.

Mark

[Benjamin Marks]

Yeah, but are their prices insane?

[R.J. Ahh for the days of Crazy Eddie and Uncle Steve. . . they are still talking about Eddie's accounting frauds. A real innovater, that one.

[SDK]

When I worked at a camera shop in Boston, they sold most new cameras for cost plus 10%. Things might have gotten a bit tighter since then, but I imagine retailers are making more than 3%. Of course if dealers and retailers together are getting a cut of only 20% combined (or even less), that leaves more profit for Carl Zeiss AG and some for Cosina. Hopefully they can plow that money back into more nifty camera and lens designs. Can we have too many good Zeiss products?

I believe Zeiss had announced previously that they were selling about three ZM lenses for every ZI body, so they are probably well over the 10,000 count for lenses in the first production year. Another 6-8 million dollars in sales. Not too shabby. :)

[Benjamin Marks]

Very well, I stand corrected, although I will note that the 10% markup you discuss is gross, not net, but let's not quibble. Perhaps what I should have said was that markup in other industries from wholesale to retail is often larger than in electronics.

Ben